General 'Haki' Discussion

[sabinis]

@King:

Not really. Unless you want to argue Tashigi didn't use Haki there. Or here.

Usually, when we see a Logia being hit, that serves as alternate indication that Haki is used. Remember how Luffy's arms weren't darkened when he held Caesar.

This same logic can be applied to Law's Mes.

That was probably Tashigis haki at its best. We never seen her use hardening. But we have seen Law using it.

So Law going all out without using his haki to fullest ? Whats the point then ? Bad example in my opinion, you should not link situations as it suits argument for you.
Same with Luffy grabbing Cesar- to grab him it was enough without hardening but to really damage him Luffy went for hardening.

And as you said your logic "can be applied" to Laws Mes but its not certain that its a fact.

[King Cannon]

@sabinis:

That was probably Tashigis haki at its best. We never seen her use hardening. But we have seen Law using it.

So Law going all out without using his haki to fullest ? Whats the point then ? Bad example in my opinion, you should not link situations as it suits argument for you.
Same with Luffy grabbing Cesar- to grab him it was enough without hardening but to really damage him Luffy went for hardening.

And as you said your logic "can be applied" to Laws Mes but its not certain that its a fact.

When a Logia gets hit, it's just best to think Haki was used unless an alternate explanation is given.

And also, what would be the point of Law not being able to imbue Haki on his attacks? Don't you think it would be confusing if Mes worked by his own rules instead of simply being just another move that can be imbued with Haki?

While I do agree that it's possible Law could have not used Haki against Vergo, I disagree that he can't imbue his DF attacks with Haki. Smoker being the biggest evidence. His chest was clearly smoke at the time, and Oda never gave any alternate explanation besides the obvious. There also would be no point for an alternate explanation as Haki easily explains how Law was able to remove Smoker's heart (because Law himself has Haki), saving Oda a lot of time. And the great majority of people (casual readers) will take that scene as Haki for granted.

Honestly, those kinds of discussions only happen because of your tendency to overanalyze stuff, and that's very boring and pointless if it's all the time. You just have to understand that One Piece is very simple most of the time.

I really have no desire to continue this, as it a very simple problem with a simple solution so it shouldn't warrant such a long discussion.

[GON 0]

haki is stupid damage control. anybody can tell.

what kind of natural life force is divided into 3 neat groups like that?

[sabinis]

@King:

When a Logia gets hit, it's just best to think Haki was used unless an alternate explanation is given.

And also, what would be the point of Law not being able to imbue Haki on his attacks? Don't you think it would be confusing if Mes worked by his own rules instead of simply being just another move that can be imbued with Haki?

While I do agree that it's possible Law could have not used Haki against Vergo, I disagree that he can't imbue his DF attacks with Haki. Smoker being the biggest evidence. His chest was clearly smoke at the time, and Oda never gave any alternate explanation besides the obvious. There also would be no point for an alternate explanation as Haki easily explains how Law was able to remove Smoker's heart (because Law himself has Haki), saving Oda a lot of time. And the great majority of people (casual readers) will take that scene as Haki for granted.

Honestly, those kinds of discussions only happen because of your tendency to overanalyze stuff, and that's very boring and pointless if it's all the time. You just have to understand that One Piece is very simple most of the time.

I really have no desire to continue this, as it a very simple problem with a simple solution so it shouldn't warrant such a long discussion.

Few times I asked for you to understand that we disagree, all points and arguments you listed I taken into account, non convinced me to drop thinking that Law used stone pillar to land a suprise attack on Smoker, taking away his heart only with his ability, without using haki. For me its same as saying that Fujitora can imbue his non-material ability(like Laws and similar to Laws ability its being used also through sword at most of times) with haki. I dont believe its possible with Fujitora, I have hard time thinking its case with Laws Mes - though its unclear on how he damaged Doflamingos face with Mes and how Mes works in detail(is it a box or manipulation of space/sphere in place Law pushes through with hand or something else).

Honestly if you would acknowled it earlier you would have dropped recycling same arguments and then going for occams razor and then blaming me for discussion prolonging. You see fault in my way but you dont see that I hinted few times that we should drop discussing as in fact I had same thought on Laws Mes hakified or not being small thing not worth such long exchange.

[King Cannon]

@sabinis:

Few times I asked for you to understand that we disagree, all points and arguments you listed I taken into account, non convinced me to drop thinking that Law used stone pillar to land a suprise attack on Smoker, taking away his heart only with his ability, without using haki. For me its same as saying that Fujitora can imbue his non-material ability(like Laws and similar to Laws ability its being used also through sword at most of times) with haki. I dont believe its possible with Fujitora, I have hard time thinking its case with Laws Mes - though its unclear on how he damaged Doflamingos face with Mes and how Mes works in detail(is it a box or manipulation of space/sphere in place Law pushes through with hand or something else).

Honestly if you would acknowled it earlier you would have dropped recycling same arguments and then going for occams razor and then blaming me for discussion prolonging. You see fault in my way but you dont see that I hinted few times that we should drop discussing as in fact I had same thought on Laws Mes hakified or not being small thing not worth such long exchange.

I'm sure Oda's intention at the time was to make us think that Law used Haki. One could easily explain that the effects of Law's CoA also are affected by his Devil Fruit. It's not really hard to believe because we're following fictional physics and Law's DF already allows him to warp reality to an extent. If the dude can warp his own slashes, then why not Hakified slashes?

Heck, the arc had three different Logias just so characters could showcase CoA's ability to hit Logias.

And about Mes/Scalpel, it probably works like his cutting attack. Anything in front of his hand will get a box-shaped hole (Doula partially dodged this move, so he only got a scratch). It's somewhat like a long-ranged punch.

[R_Zoro]

My assumption was that Law used haki to counter Smoker's logia ability and complete his tech. I will say that the Ope-Ope ability/fruit is insane and there may be elements about it that we don't know yet. Speaking of Haki, I wonder how exactly does each character train their own Haki. Luffy's Rusukaina training gave us a good glimpse of it but to a very small extent. I would imagine that, if you train against very tough opponents, that would obviously strengthen your Haki but I always think of folks like Whitebeard, Akainu, Garp, Vergo, etc, and how they trained their Haki.

[Tangaroa]

@sabinis:

Few times I asked for you to understand that we disagree, all points and arguments you listed I taken into account, non convinced me to drop thinking that Law used stone pillar to land a suprise attack on Smoker, taking away his heart only with his ability, without using haki. For me its same as saying that Fujitora can imbue his non-material ability(like Laws and similar to Laws ability its being used also through sword at most of times) with haki. I dont believe its possible with Fujitora, I have hard time thinking its case with Laws Mes - though its unclear on how he damaged Doflamingos face with Mes and how Mes works in detail(is it a box or manipulation of space/sphere in place Law pushes through with hand or something else).

Honestly if you would acknowled it earlier you would have dropped recycling same arguments and then going for occams razor and then blaming me for discussion prolonging. You see fault in my way but you dont see that I hinted few times that we should drop discussing as in fact I had same thought on Laws Mes hakified or not being small thing not worth such long exchange.

One thing I think has been forgotten in this is that how a devil fruit works is down to the user.
When Brook was first introduced his df was only a return to life. Now he's unlocked it as spirit control.
Luffy, and this is staring us in the face, started off bouncy/ stretchy.
With practise and ingenuity he learned how to manipulate his system for gears 2 & 3.
During the time skip he further learned how to reinforce his system with haki and take how these work further.

Perhaps it was a similar progression; somebody just gaining the Op Op can create room and swap the places of things within it.
Later the user can learn to move things around in greater detail; with something like Law's medical training, even down to cellular.
Someone with Law's training who learns haki can manipulate matter within Room well enough it can even effect logia form matter. Even energy given whatever Law's shock attack is. But haki in others is a natural resistance so it takes even him greater effort & concentration.

[Shobu Yoruichi]

@GON!!!:

haki is stupid damage control. anybody can tell.

what kind of natural life force is divided into 3 neat groups like that?

Nop.

Haki is the manifestation of ambition or willpower.
Life beings need to be ambitous in order to survive, in some cases. Meaning that may be misunderstood for a force coming from being alive. It's difficult to obtain because you have to order your priorities and thoughts to feel, protect or guide. Which are nice and simple definitions brought by typical social behaviours.

[desa]

@R_Zoro:

My assumption was that Law used haki to counter Smoker's logia ability and complete his tech. I will say that the Ope-Ope ability/fruit is insane and there may be elements about it that we don't know yet. Speaking of Haki, I wonder how exactly does each character train their own Haki. Luffy's Rusukaina training gave us a good glimpse of it but to a very small extent. I would imagine that, if you train against very tough opponents, that would obviously strengthen your Haki but I always think of folks like Whitebeard, Akainu, Garp, Vergo, etc, and how they trained their Haki.

Actually I always believe Law only used his powers against Smokey. I still do.

For haki training I suppose it's just like any training practice and fights.

[sabinis]

@Tangaroa:

One thing I think has been forgotten in this is that how a devil fruit works is down to the user.
When Brook was first introduced his df was only a return to life. Now he's unlocked it as spirit control.
Luffy, and this is staring us in the face, started off bouncy/ stretchy.
With practise and ingenuity he learned how to manipulate his system for gears 2 & 3.
During the time skip he further learned how to reinforce his system with haki and take how these work further.

Perhaps it was a similar progression; somebody just gaining the Op Op can create room and swap the places of things within it.
Later the user can learn to move things around in greater detail; with something like Law's medical training, even down to cellular.
Someone with Law's training who learns haki can manipulate matter within Room well enough it can even effect logia form matter. Even energy given whatever Law's shock attack is. But haki in others is a natural resistance so it takes even him greater effort & concentration.

Brooks ice, Kinemons fire on sword(not only Kinemons) and McGuys electricity and Laws counter shock makes me think that there is more to those elements being used in fights in OP. But I dont want to start a discussion on it so lets leave it at that thought.

As for rest of your posts- I agree.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Tangaroa:

One thing I think has been forgotten in this is that how a devil fruit works is down to the user.
When Brook was first introduced his df was only a return to life. Now he's unlocked it as spirit control.
Luffy, and this is staring us in the face, started off bouncy/ stretchy.
With practise and ingenuity he learned how to manipulate his system for gears 2 & 3.
During the time skip he further learned how to reinforce his system with haki and take how these work further.

Perhaps it was a similar progression; somebody just gaining the Op Op can create room and swap the places of things within it.
Later the user can learn to move things around in greater detail; with something like Law's medical training, even down to cellular.
Someone with Law's training who learns haki can manipulate matter within Room well enough it can even effect logia form matter. Even energy given whatever Law's shock attack is. But haki in others is a natural resistance so it takes even him greater effort & concentration.

Brooks ice, Kinemons fire on sword(not only Kinemons) and McGuys electricity and Laws counter shock makes me think that there is more to those elements being used in fights in OP. But I dont want to start a discussion on it so lets leave it at that thought.

As for rest of your posts- I agree.

[RomanceDawn]

@Riquelme:

I was here trying to wrap my head around ambition of the conqueror (Kings Haki) and some ideas came to me about how it might be of importance in the future. I chose this one because most persons cannot fully get a grasp on the concept so let me get to explaining.

When I think of Haki I am reminded of the various powers that exist in other mangas and animes that help to increase a fighters potential. In most cases, it is referred to as spirit (Ki) like Dragon Ball, Nem in HxH, and some mangas that involve magic use manna but whatever it is referred to it is still the same concept just different ways of explaining and using it. Think back on Dragon Ball when we see Goku or anybody for that matter release their Ki the author always use different visuals to show how much stronger they have gotten by having it affecting the the world and people. When ki is released we see rocks breaking, breeze flying and people getting blown away, we also see people getting scared to fight and giving up hope, some faint these references may not only be from Dragon Ball. Let me use Bleach as well when a captain release their spiritual pressure we see persons who are not strong enough falling to their knees in some instant we see persons suffocating. Additionally the author always let the characters use the spiritual pressure to augment their fighting skills and power if the manga is power base.

What I explain are things already known by most, I know some might start to say "not this again", so I will get to it. The first time we see Haki affecting something physically was shanks meeting with White Beard, hence the Dragon Ball reference. Therefore, what we get from this, that if your Haki/spiritual power is strong enough it can be manifested outwards creating force, it then can be seen as something tangible. Another example is the admirals putting up that force field to ward off White Beard ability. I think it is similar to the previous example hence Shanks Haki creating a force field that is pushing against White Beard's ship.

How will Conqueror Haki works? Here are some examples of how I think it may become relevant in combat:

1. Overpowering an opponent's will that render them unable to fight something we all know.
2. Coating your body or armor with Conqueror Haki and amplifying your attacks this will allow your will to clash against another therefore depending on who's will is stronger they will overpower the other damaging any defense that person have in place.

3. I think this is the one that I believe in more even though it is far fetch, allowing a Conqueror user to apply it to their attack and disrupt a devil fruit user ability to use the devil fruit effectively. The way it will work is the same as Monet not able to put herself back together after getting slice by Zoro and similar to how Law disrupt Trebol ability leaving him unable to put himself back together for some time. Therefore, it will be something like a Conqueror's injection. Another example is Ralige sp using it to take off Cami neckbrace that would normally explode if taken off otherwise.
4. Using it to augment the other type of Haki. As it relates to COA it fits with example two, and COO it will increase the range similar to Enel also it will allow the user to hear the voice of all things same like Roger and Luffy this will be the key to finding One Piece something Black Beard will not be able to do. This point is somewhat iffy as roger ask Whitebeard if he wants to know how to find One Piece.

I think Zoro has already developed a bit of CoC and like you mentioned, I think it was displayed when he battled Monet. I didn't really think about it until you said it but I could see CoC being able to disrupt how a fruit user functions to the point theta they lose control of their abilities. Only it seems the power difference would need to be vast enough. There is no way Luffy will ever make Akainu faint with his mere presence alone so I'm not sure how far CoC can be taken in a battle between 2 with relatively equal skill. As for Trebol and Law, I'm pretty sure the Radio Knife's specific properties are keeping Trebol in pieces since he has been basically laughing the whole time with no signs of being intimidated.

Now as for the Admiral force field I look at that as just another form of the invisible armor that is Color of Arms. Sentomaru and Mariegold both used something similar with out reaching palms that bounced away attacks. While CoC may be used in the future to aid the other colors we know for sure Mariegold doesn't have CoC.

[DARK_RITUAL]

Oh no, please stop with this Zoro has a bit COC, COC has always been shown to knock Livingthings unconscious.

In the manga it even clearly said that monet couldn't reconnect her logia body due to the shock she thought she was dead. "Shock of dying" can disconnect any persons mind even in real world you won't even know where you at or feel your body anymore.

Trust me, I've been in car accident and when it happened I had no idea where I was and I couldn't even see or feel my own body for a quick seconds before reality cameback to me. I think this what Oda showed with monet.

[RomanceDawn]

@DARK_RITUAL:

Oh no, please stop with this Zoro has a bit COC, COC has always been shown to knock Livingthings unconscious.

In the manga it even clearly said that monet couldn't reconnect her logia body due to the shock she thought she was dead. "Shock of dying" can disconnect any persons mind even in real world you won't even know where you at or feel your body anymore.

Trust me, I've been in car accident and when it happened I had no idea where I was and I couldn't even see or feel my own body for a quick seconds before reality cameback to me. I think this what Oda showed with monet.

See I don't look at it as something that is so cut and dry. CoC intimidates, it doesn't mean that if it's affective on the enemy that passing out is guaranteed or that it is all its capable of. Case in point Rayleigh using it on Law's men(Sachi and Penguine?) or Shanks making the Sea King flee. CoC seems like it has the least amount of creative possibilities so I''m assuming we'll see things besides making people faint and the way Zoro handled Monet might be one of them.

I more or less get what you are saying about fear of death and your car accident but I don't see any difference between that type of fear/intimidation VS the fear/intimidation that comes from a blast of CoC. If one isn't prepared mentally and physically then that persons senses get overwhelmed and they pass out or don't function properly.

When Luffy first displayed CoC in front of the crew Zoro said "he'd better be able to do that much or I'll have to take over as captain." If that's not a gargantuan sized Oda hint that Zoro has it and would be displaying it later then I don't know what is. That's Stephen Paul's translation too.

[DARK_RITUAL]

@RomanceDawn:

See I don't look at it as something that is so cut and dry. CoC intimidates, it doesn't mean that if it's affective on the enemy that passing out is guaranteed or that it is all its capable of. Case in point Rayleigh using it on Law's men(Sachi and Penguine?) or Shanks making the Sea King flee. CoC seems like it has the least amount of creative possibilities so I''m assuming we'll see things besides making people faint and the way Zoro handled Monet might be one of them.

I more or less get what you are saying about fear of death and your car accident but I don't see any difference between that type of fear/intimidation VS the fear/intimidation that comes from a blast of CoC. If one isn't prepared mentally and physically then that persons senses get overwhelmed and they pass out or don't function properly.

When Luffy first displayed CoC in front of the crew Zoro said "he'd better be able to do that much or I'll have to take over as captain." If that's not a gargantuan sized Oda hint that Zoro has it and would be displaying it later then I don't know what is. That's Stephen Paul's translation too.

Sorry but I have to disagree. Oda can't just give COC haki to Strawhat behind the scene like that, what you should be saying Zoro may awaken it later but right now I won't believe he has it. Oda says Luffy specializes in COC and we haven't seen him do much and you believe Oda will give COC to another Strawhat just as it's the only thing that's making Luffy look epic and standout from the crew and M3?

And Zoro never said he will takeover as the captain, right translation: Zoro: "We will have to find a new captain".

[Cymelion]

@DARK_RITUAL:

Sorry but I have to disagree. Oda can't just give COC haki to Strawhat behind the scene like that, what you should be saying Zoro may awaken it later but right now I won't believe he has it. Oda says Luffy specializes in COC and we haven't seen him do much and you believe Oda will give COC to another Strawhat just as it's the only thing that's making Luffy look epic and standout from the crew and M3?

And Zoro never said he will takeover as the captain, right translation: Zoro: "We will have to find a new captain".

Actually Zoro having COC is possible as much as we all want Sanji and Zoro to be on equal footings - Sanji's role is the cook a monsterous overpowered and dangerous cook. Traditionally the cooks on boats are an anomaly a good chef can get away with damn near murder and have the respect of the crew - But Zoro being 2nd mate is all but written in as cannon and being 2nd Mate would entitle him to having COC but lesser than Luffy's.

Also all the Strawhats have been given powers behind the scenes - we're just not aware of them all yet. That's what the time skip was for pretty much.

[RomanceDawn]

@DARK_RITUAL:

Sorry but I have to disagree. Oda can't just give COC haki to Strawhat behind the scene like that, what you should be saying Zoro may awaken it later but right now I won't believe he has it. Oda says Luffy specializes in COC and we haven't seen him do much and you believe Oda will give COC to another Strawhat just as it's the only thing that's making Luffy look epic and standout from the crew and M3?

And Zoro never said he will takeover as the captain, right translation: Zoro: "We will have to find a new captain".

Luffy's entire focus during the skip was on Haki yes but how much did people debate if Sanji and Zoro could use it at all afterwards? There were hints and many still wouldn't accept it until Luffy outright said it. They got Haki behind the scenes and we didn't need some grand Usopp style awakening for it. CoC is the special one but even Chin Jao let is know there are tons of people in the new world with it. Luffy specializes in it meaning he is better at it, meaning Zoro isnt going to outclass him at it anytime soon even if he does display it.

With Luffy we were already given that mysterious new development of his abilities, I don't think we'll see that again with the monster trio. They are special, they can just kind of do these amazing things. We got to see Usopp awakening his color because he is the most human, through him we get to see what it's like for a normal person to develop and experience Haki.

And like I said Stephen Paul. He was the go to One Piece translator before One Piece even existed. Of course he can't be as dry and straight forward with dialogue as he used to since he is now the official translator but the implied meaning is there across every translation I've seen of that line. There was a bit of debate over this very topic when that line was fresh in chapter 634.

Look how Aohige translated it.

Zoro: I expect him to do this much, or we'd switch captains

What is Zoro saying? Looks pretty suspect if you ask me.

Obviously I won't convince you but my line of thinking is that Zoro has it now. You know what else might ruffle your feathers? I think Sanji will display it later and Usopp!

EDIT:
While Stephen Paul worked that volume he didn't translate that chapter. Zoro doesn't specifically say He should take over. Its more in line with the Aohige translation. My point still stands though.

[DARK_RITUAL]

@RomanceDawn:

Luffy's entire focus during the skip was on Haki yes but how much did people debate if Sanji and Zoro could use it at all afterwards? There were hints and many still wouldn't accept it until Luffy outright said it. They got Haki behind the scenes and we didn't need some grand Usopp style awakening for it. CoC is the special one but even Chin Jao let is know there are tons of people in the new world with it. Luffy specializes in it meaning he is better at it, meaning Zoro isnt going to outclass him at it anytime soon even if he does display it.

With Luffy we were already given that mysterious new development of his abilities, I don't think we'll see that again with the monster trio. They are special, they can just kind of do these amazing things. We got to see Usopp awakening his color because he is the most human, through him we get to see what it's like for a normal person to develop and experience Haki.

And like I said Stephen Paul. He was the go to One Piece translator before One Piece even existed. Of course he can't be as dry and straight forward with dialogue as he used to since he is now the official translator but the implied meaning is there across every translation I've seen of that line. There was a bit of debate over this very topic when that line was fresh in chapter 634.

Look how Aohige translated it.

What is Zoro saying? Looks pretty suspect if you ask me.

Obviously I won't convince you but my line of thinking is that Zoro has it now. You know what else might ruffle your feathers? I think Sanji will display it later and Usopp!

EDIT:
While Stephen Paul worked that volume he didn't translate that chapter. Zoro doesn't specifically say He should take over. Its more in line with the Aohige translation. My point still stands though.

I'm not saying that Zoro won't have it but right now is not that time. Oda can slowly show hints of him awakening it just like he did with Luffy and that will be better, that way people won't start debating who has better COC between Luffy and Zoro.

And yes I believe Sanji will eventually get COC just so he can knock out women since he won't fight em.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Cymelion:

Actually Zoro having COC is possible as much as we all want Sanji and Zoro to be on equal footings - Sanji's role is the cook a monsterous overpowered and dangerous cook. Traditionally the cooks on boats are an anomaly a good chef can get away with damn near murder and have the respect of the crew - But Zoro being 2nd mate is all but written in as cannon and being 2nd Mate would entitle him to having COC but lesser than Luffy's.

Also all the Strawhats have been given powers behind the scenes - we're just not aware of them all yet. That's what the time skip was for pretty much.

Read my above reply, Sanji will definitely get it. And Zoro is just a swordsman of Strawhats nothing about 1st mate or vice captain.

[Bellamy_]

Well in the crew there's no hierarchy, but Oda actually stated through Bartolomeo that for the rest of the One piece world Zorro is the Vice-Captain.

[RobZilla]

@Bellamy_:

Well in the crew there's no hierarchy, but Oda actually stated through Bartolomeo that for the rest of the One piece world Zorro is the Vice-Captain.

Didn't Barto specifically state that Zoro was the vice-captain in his eyes/opinion?

[xan]

We can probably assume that Zoro would be getting CoC considering the fact that we have been shown similarities between the Roger pirates and the Strawhats (at least between Roger/Luffy and Rayleigh/Zoro)

Zoro was explicitly said to be the vice captain in many cases by non-straw hats coupla times i guess. I think even one of the supernovas mentioned it too sometime.

[Cymelion]

@DARK_RITUAL:

I'm not saying that Zoro won't have it but right now is not that time. Oda can slowly show hints of him awakening it just like he did with Luffy and that will be better, that way people won't start debating who has better COC between Luffy and Zoro.

And yes I believe Sanji will eventually get COC just so he can knock out women since he won't fight em.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

Read my above reply, Sanji will definitely get it. And Zoro is just a swordsman of Strawhats nothing about 1st mate or vice captain.

I said

But Zoro being 2nd mate is all but written in as cannon

Which means that Zoro is default to us and to a lot of the people in One Piece world - however Oda has never officially given Zoro that title.

[RobZilla]

@xan:

Zoro was explicitly said to be the vice captain in many cases by non-straw hats coupla times i guess. I think even one of the supernovas mentioned it too sometime.

Was he?

Apart from Barto saying that he considered him the vice-captain I'm totally blanking.

[Razh]

@RobZilla:

Was he?

Apart from Barto saying that he considered him the vice-captain I'm totally blanking.

Well, Urouge thought he was first mate (depending on how correct the translation is) but maybe it's just his assumption.
However, Zoro is the only one who's been called a first mate/vice captain out of all the SH, so it stands to reason Oda considers him one, at least more so than others.

http://mangasee.co/manga/?series=OnePiece&chapter=499&index=1&page=16

[madaxen]

@R_Zoro:

… I always think of folks like Whitebeard, Akainu, Garp, Vergo, etc, and how they trained their Haki.

As far as I know Garp smashed mountains to dust

[RobZilla]

@Razh:

Well, Urouge thought he was first mate (depending on how correct the translation is) but maybe it's just his assumption.
However, Zoro is the only one who's been called a first mate/vice captain out of all the SH, so it stands to reason Oda considers him one, at least more so than others.

http://mangasee.co/manga/?series=OnePiece&chapter=499&index=1&page=16

Thanks for the link.

Again though, this is a statement from an outsider looking in, assuming that the SH's are a normal pirate crew with a normal crew hierarchy.

Oda really does love Zoro though, so if he was going to out and out declare him the vice captain, I think one of the SH's themselves would have stated it by now.

[Adam Fenix]

This post is deleted!

[Tangaroa]

@RobZilla:

Thanks for the link.

Again though, this is a statement from an outsider looking in, assuming that the SH's are a normal pirate crew with a normal crew hierarchy.

Oda really does love Zoro though, so if he was going to out and out declare him the vice captain, I think one of the SH's themselves would have stated it by now.

I'm pretty sure the relationship between Luffy and Zoro is meant to tacitly mirror that of Roger and his first mate Raleigh.
BUT, as you say Barto is an outsider looking in, despite his status as uber-fanboy and something of an audience insert.
When we start seeing multiple news and marine incident reports refering to him as first mate we can infer that that is the way Oda wants us to see the world sees them.
The point is pretty much moot until Luffy refers to him by that title or Oda confirms it in an sbs.

What I'll be interested in seeing is if the long-mentioned 2nd mate Gally bears any resemblence to a certain girl crazy cook and completes a resemblence of Roger's crew and the present day monster trio.

[RobZilla]

@Tangaroa:

I'm pretty sure the relationship between Luffy and Zoro is meant to tacitly mirror that of Roger and his first mate Raleigh.
BUT, as you say Barto is an outsider looking in, despite his status as uber-fanboy and something of an audience insert.
When we start seeing multiple news and marine incident reports refering to him as first mate we can infer that that is the way Oda wants us to see the world sees them.
The point is pretty much moot until Luffy refers to him by that title or Oda confirms it in an sbs.

True, there's obviously a parallel between Rayleigh and Zoro.

However, we also saw Rayleigh doing things on-board the Oro Jackson that fit with the role of First Mate, giving orders and the like.

Things that don't fit with what we've seen from Zoro on-board the Thousand Sunny in the least.

So while there are some similarities between the two, I don't think it really nails Zoro down as the First Mate.

In reality, the SH's don't have a first mate at all.

I agree with your statements about the marine reports and such.

[maxterdexter]

@RobZilla:

Thanks for the link.

Again though, this is a statement from an outsider looking in, assuming that the SH's are a normal pirate crew with a normal crew hierarchy.

Oda really does love Zoro though, so if he was going to out and out declare him the vice captain, I think one of the SH's themselves would have stated it by now.

With barto I was willing to say fanwank, but I'm inclined to belive that Urogue is more of an oda-insert than what he actualy thinks.

Besides, the function is distiled into Zoro (combat leader) Nami (comercial leader) Usopp (substitute emotional core)

[Razh]

Well, Zoro fits several OP criteria. First one to join Luffy, second strongest, second highest bounty… I guess he could be a first mate purely due to seniority.

[maxterdexter]

None of those things have to do with being first mate other than being first.

[Razh]

@maxterdexter:

None of those things have to do with being first mate other than being first.

I don't remember many examples where second in command wasn't also second strongest in the crew. The same goes for the bounty.

[sabinis]

Some people will deny that as it is now Zoro is seen by people in One Piece and should be seen by readers as Luffys first mate.
He is second strongest person in crew and because of that he is seen as first mate. No need to deny that or use rocket sience as counter argument I think.

Its not downgrade for Sanji in any way because its Marines/ other pirates problem as they dont acknowledge(yet) Sanji as very big danger at least on par with what Zoro poses(If Zoro is now capable of formulating strategy(!) then Sanji should have also get an upgrade in how cunning/trollish he can be). Out of good plan using many strong people can come out danger for Goverment-Marines/ enemy pirate crews crews far bigger than from Zoro alone.

[Tangaroa]

On a large crew of relative strangers a first mate is the chain of command that protects the captain from being bothered by petty issues.
On a crew of 9 people who know each other so well no such barrier exists.
If the crew think about it at all Zoro is the swordsman*, as Ussop is the marksman & Robin is the archeologist/spy (all the others DO hold traditional positions).

In the public eye, who may not even realize how small a crew they are, he may be referred to as mate just because they assume the crew has to have one.
This may change but we haven't seen it in the book itself yet.

(*I can't remember when but I think they have refered to him as this already, if anybody else knows).

[DARK_RITUAL]

Rayleigh is like Zoro+Nami+Sanji combined. We've seen him make reasonable deductions which is something Sanji will do, he fights with sword which is Zoro and he loves gambling making money just like nami, I believe he loves women too.

Anyways, Strawhat crew I can't see any of them ever calling Zoro or anyone else captain or vice captain and if the crewmates don't do that that means they don't have any vice captain nor 1st mate. They hardly even respect Luffy as their captain, just recently they started calling Luffy as "Captain", well from what I've seen I can not picture all the Strawhats calling anyone as their vice captain.

Zoro VC- Sanji will riot like hell, Usopp won't accept and be calling himself VC, the rest probably won't care.
Usopp VC- Nami will disagree, no one will accept this except maybe Luffy
Nami or Robin VC- Sanji will agree definitely, the rest I don't think so.
Sanji VC- Zoro will never accept him, the rest won't care.

In short the crew will never accept a vice captain, people may call someone VC but the crew won't acknowledge it unless Oda does 360.

[Clessenur]

Only one the crew will accept as vice captain is Jinbe.

[RamistaR]

@Clessenur:

Only one the crew will accept as vice captain is Jinbe.

Honestly I would be a happy fanboy is Oda had Jinbe being the official Vicecaptain.
But I think I prefer the current hierarchy with everyone on the same level.

[Shobu Yoruichi]

Usopp's the vice-captain guys, it was said in chapter 10 or close to it.

[RomanceDawn]

@Razh:

I don't remember many examples where second in command wasn't also second strongest in the crew. The same goes for the bounty.

Bounty can be tricky. Robin was in the crew with a higher bounty than Zoro for a long time.

When Jinbe joins he could very well have the 2nd highest bounty for a while. 400 million is a heck of a lot and Jinbe's bounty is apparently higher than that.

As for the whole first mate thing goes I don't view Zoro as Vice Captain. There isn't a hierarchy within the Straw Hat's beyond Luffy being the top. The crew seems to be more like White Beards in that the division commanders don't have authority over one another. Sometimes Luffy makes a hard decision and thats that, some times Nami does, sometime Zoro does and so on. I feel like there won't be a clear Vice Captain any time soon if only for the sake of balance that the story has upheld since the beginning.

Though I will say it does seem that Luffy looks at Zoro and Sanji differently than the rest of the crew.

[DARK_RITUAL]

Yes Luffy looks at Zoro and Sanji as the two who can take care of things while he is not there. Like he has more confidence on those two, example: allowing permission for Sanji to Attack a yonko ship, he probably wouldn't have agreed if it was someone other than Zoro or Sanji.

[RobZilla]

@maxterdexter:

With barto I was willing to say fanwank, but I'm inclined to belive that Urogue is more of an oda-insert than what he actualy thinks.

Besides, the function is distiled into Zoro (combat leader) Nami (comercial leader) Usopp (substitute emotional core)

Indeed, like I said, the SH's don't have a traditional hierarchy that would fit with one member sitting within all the necessary parameters for a First Mate.

[Cymelion]

@RobZilla:

Indeed, like I said, the SH's don't have a traditional hierarchy that would fit with one member sitting within all the necessary parameters for a First Mate.

Well the crew isn't finished - also Zoro has given orders in the past and challenged Luffy on occasions and been the one to force him to change his mind - Zoro doesn't need to give orders like a normal first mate because the Strawhats are anything but normal. Zoro will have COC either already or develop it as they go - Sanji is a possibility for sure - but he'd develop it well after Zoro being shown using it.

[fapfapfap]

Does anyone remember any maybe an Oda interview or editor or SBS from a while back. Maybe I'm crazy but I recall something a while back talking about the 3 kinds of haki but also went on to talk about the different levels of proficiency for each kind of haki which may have also hinted that conqueror's haki could do more than take out fodder.

I was just thinking about not just the most recent chapter but the one before it (782) where Luffy and Doflamingo's conqueror's haki clash with like black lightning bolts originating from the epicenter.

And it dawned on me? What it more advanced conqueror's haki involves manipulating surrounding conditions? I mean we its explicitly stated when Whitebeard and Shanks clash that it was strong enough to divide the sky. A lot of people have speculated that Gol D. Roger's luck due to the changing weather conditions in the Battle of Edd War helped him beat Shiki despite being vastly outnumbered might have been due to some kind of weather fruit and maybe Dragon now possesses this fruit. It doesn't seem unreasonable to me that if the clash of two people with incredible conqueror's haki can split the sky that the haki of a single person could manipulate weather conditions.

[game2005]

Does anyone here think Haki is Oda's way of retconning stuff like Mantra and the Rokushiki? I've met a couple of people who are bent on proving that Haki wasn't thought up by Oda until, like, the Saboady arc or somewhere there to "replace" them.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=140925&page=2

[MasterKingJC]

Except stuff like Blackbeard mentioning Luffy's strong 'haki' in Jaya, Garp's 'fist of love' in Water 7, and Jozu's comment on Shanks' haki after Post-Enies Lobby already disprove their arguments.

[RomanceDawn]

@game2005:

Does anyone here think Haki is Oda's way of retconning stuff like Mantra and the Rokushiki? I've met a couple of people who are bent on proving that Haki wasn't thought up by Oda until, like, the Saboady arc or somewhere there to "replace" them.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=140925&page=2

Oda most likely didn't have it all down pat as we know it but it's extremely easy to see how there was some concept of it since the very first chapter with hints here and there in Alabasta, Jaya, Skypiea, etc. Smoker was introduced in the East Blue and even without really understanding One Piece at the time it was easy to see that eventually we'd see a fire man, a electricity man, etc. We were going to eventually get a reason as to why guys like Smoker didn't just rule the world. There was always going to be some common element that would handle them all. Though again, Oda had it all in mind but no way it was as fleshed out as it is now.

@MasterKingJC:

Except stuff like Blackbeard mentioning Luffy's strong 'haki' in Jaya, Garp's 'fist of love' in Water 7, and Jozu's comment on Shanks' haki after Post-Enies Lobby already disprove their arguments.

Yes what he said. I'd argue however that the Fist of Love is something else entirely.

[Galaxy 9000]

Armament is the only one that was introduced suddenly. Both Conqueror's and Observation Haki had hints throughout the early arcs of the manga, but Armament was something that basically came out of nowhere on Sabaody; barring the "Fist of Love".

The "Fist of Love" might be the closest thing to an Armament hint, but even that originally seemed like a gag.

This post by Greg pretty much details the train of thought that Oda was going through in the early series regarding Observation and Conqueror's Haki.

[King Cannon]

@Galaxy:

Armament is the only one that was introduced suddenly. Both Conqueror's and Observation Haki had hints throughout the early arcs of the manga, but Armament was something that basically came out of nowhere on Sabaody; barring the "Fist of Love".

The "Fist of Love" might be the closest thing to an Armament hint, but even that originally seemed like a gag.

This post by Greg pretty much details the train of thought that Oda was going through in the early series regarding Observation and Conqueror's Haki.

Fist of Love wasn't really a gag as characters actually comment on the fact that Garp can bypass Luffy's rubber body.

[Galaxy 9000]

It was still played for pretty much comedic purposes though.

[King Cannon]

@Galaxy:

It was still played for pretty much comedic purposes though.

I dunno. Sanji specifically mentioning Luffy's rubber body not protecting him from the punch was played in a straight, dramatic manner.

Compare with Nami's gag punches that causes even the monster trio to perish, and no one bats an eye.