@desa:
They gave them both their own teams and stories. The question is if the readership will follow.
But those stories are never going to involve events as big as Batman's though. And the teams they have are always going to involve minor heroes and sidekicks. Hence why Nightwing will always be tied down to the Teen Titans until the end of his days and Red Hood and the Outlaws is basically only edgy Teen Titans. I have no issue with focusing on lesser known characters and smaller story events, and I'm not saying that Dick and Jason can't have good stories. But I will always feel that no matter how much Nightwing and Red Hood want to look independent, they're always going to be trapped in a bubble orbiting around the sphere that is Batman's world. I feel as though they're never going to get the push or creative effort they deserve from DC after forging their own paths.
And there's also the fact that they keep getting roped into guest starring in Bat Family events centered around Bruce. And not just that, but they tend to be victims of some villain trying to make a deluded point as an excuse to make Bruce feel more tragedy. Yet there are no Bat Family events centered on anybody who isn't Bruce, aside from maybe when they tried to revive Damian. And that was still spearheaded by Batman. I understand why DC doesn't do this because Batman is the big seller. But still. I think a Bat Family event where the main hero is, say, Batgirl would be an interesting change of pace.
Young justice was a thing because people tuned in. Bart didn't stayed a Flash because the public didn't like him. They seem to actually be trying to have the batkids(My name for the robins) get real identities the easiest example being they are not just derivative of his costume.
What about Wally though? Many people loved Wally. Even in the JLU cartoon, although that was because the mainstream public isn't too familiar with Barry Allen or Jay Garrick. But Barry (along with Hal) only got brought back because Geoff Johns had a big crush on the Silver Age and wanted his Flash and his Green Lanter that he grew up with to hog the spotlight again. They were the two superheroes that actually had a successful long-running legacy and it got regressed for literally no reason other than nostalgia. Now most people will only care about Barry and Hal. And what's funny is that live-action adaptations of Barry are injecting Wally's personality traits and even some of his villains onto him because the original Barry isn't all that interesting personality-wise.
The question now if the public will follow or not. I mean Cyborg is considered an A lister because he is in the movie. Same thing thing for those from the MCU movies that were not as important in the comics. The public suddenly tuned in. I have read some of the Outlaws the comics does try to make them distinct and move them forward with their history. People often are just waiting for when they meet with Batman.
The fandom tuned into Cyborg because of two reasons. The first is that he became part of a franchise that was already well-known. The second is that they didn't care about whether or not the fans would accept Cyborg replacing Martian Manhunter. It was their way or the highway. They stuck with their push to make him well-known and it worked. Now if only DC could stick to their guns like that on Wally being the main Flash, or Dick staying as Batman, or maybe actually going through with the damn Batman-Catwoman wedding, and we could make some progress.
I will say I miss DC being about legacy where they sticked with many decision like Jason Todd death, Nightwing or Wally becoming flash. Lately they are way more tied to readership and listening to their grievance which I understand but leads to less moving forward. I'm happy the new green lanterns didn't get killed/replaced at least(I don't like the girl getting a ring but wathever) and new Wally didn't get killed. But they are just creating redundance. Those doesn't bother me and I like how they brung back the old but I fear it means no more moving forward. Even Sups getting a kid is bloating more than legacy.
I think it's less that they're burdened by fan reception and more that certain creators are bound to nostalgia. Of course, books focusing on completely new heroes usually tend to flunk sales-wise
And see, Jon Kent is exactly what I mean. I appreciate him showing the growth of Clark and Lois' relationship, but Jon as a character is more than likely never going to develop into an interesting individual hero. At best, he'll join the Teen Titans or continue to have team-ups with Damian to take advantage of the whole "Batman and Superman have SONS" gimmick.
Dick is an interesting case. They took a huge gamble by making him his own man with his identity. I don't think it would fly currently. At the same time, he's the only one that could take the legacy of Batman without causing riot. Yet because of the big statement of becoming Nightwing it would be a step backward for him. He's fit for the legacy but taking the legacy mean he couldn't make his own. I don't read much comic but for some reason Dick fascinates me. I genuinely consider that he is a testament to a character that evolved rather than staying static(Jason got lucky that someone had a great story for his return) and there's the story of how edition wanted to kill him in the second crisis but writers/editors all decided that couldn't happen(which I agree with). I'm not the biggest fan of how the new 52 have treated him tho I'm not sure if rebirth is doing better. The batman legacy paradox annoys me. I would both hate and love it.
I agree that Dick becoming Batman would feel like a step backwards, although a part of me still wishes they stuck with Bruce staying dead for the sake of continuity progression.
But I am interested, what do you consider is an A lister? The appreciation of the public?
That's a more difficult question to answer than I initially thought lol. But I think it's mainly getting a big solo push by DC. Having their own comic that gets marketed as one of the most popular titles, building up their own rogues gallery, having them interact with other big heroes like Superman or Green Arrow, having their own unique setting, giving them stories that impact other books, let them join a big team like the Justice League, just anything like that.
I definitely agree that Batman's villain need more love tho. There's definitely great potential for at least Penguin. But I guess the best writers want to write on consistently Joker. Because if you want a real impact it cannot be only one story. Except if it's a movie. Movies always leave great impact. Write a great animated story for one of the other villains.
All of Batman's villains need more love. And yes, Penguin is one of the most underrated villains in terms of potential.
I also wish they would stop referencing when Bane broke Batman's back. It happened decades in his very first story but it keeps getting recreated and referenced and rephrased all of the damn time as the only interesting thing he ever did. Seriously, let him move on to other impactful things.
And I still think that Riddler and Scarecrow need better motivation material than only outsmarting/scaring people for the sake of it all of the time too. Past their first couple of stories, that gets old.