@TLC:
You could also argue that Water 7, Sea Train and Enies Lobby are the first second and third act of one big arc.
Yes, that would be the Water 7 saga.
Chapter 781: "Long-Cherished Desire"
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I can see why someone might want to call them different arcs - considering its length, just to better clarify about which part you are speaking.
But they are not completely different. No, just no! With that logic you could also separate Alabasta into pre-Arbana and Arbana.
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@TLC:
I would argue that Amazon Lilly, Impel Down and Marineford are one arc that all delve into saving Ace.
Well then I guess you are confusing cycles and arcs.
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@Cyan:
No one likes associating Water 7's goodness with the general trash heap that was Enies Lobby. It's understandable.
U WOT M8?
I understand that someone can have their own opinions; but to me Water 7 is what made Enies Lobby awesome. It added the emotional connection to the straw hats first major conflict with the world government; giving if not my personal favorite OP moment of Sogeking sniping the flag.
More so in my personal opinion, while Lucci may be somewhat lacking in the personality department his fight with Luffy was one of the best in the series. Simply because the purpose of that fight was to push Luffy to the absolute maximum and then some more, all for the sake of the survival of his friends. Which is why the chapter of Luffy's final jet gatling to me is one of the best finishers, and chapters in OP; not only because of Usopp's speech, but when Luffy stands back up he is pissed, the only thing keeping him going, everything that has happened from meeting Aoikiji until this point and he just lets it all out. It really kinda got me going, and brought all the aspects of that saga to a close rather nicely.
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@TLC:
Boo, Enies Lobby owns.
I agree with you on that one M8
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The party and the guys going away mark the end of an arc.
If I have to accept Punk Hazzard as part of the "Take down Doflamingo" arc , so be it, but that is from Law's perspective, the strawhats were mostly just for the ride the moment that Caesar touched the children he was going down. But both the War, Skypea/Jaya and Water 7 are their own arcs.
Aparently this is an arc. -
It could, since it fits the exact defition you listed below.
No it doesn't. The end goal of the entire Sabaody arc was to find a way under the Red Line (of course, that didn't happen, but the readers had no idea of knowing what would happen at the end). This includes helping Keimi rescue Hachi and going to the actual Archipelago to find a coater for their ship.
Main antagonist is still Doffy, though by proxy, similary to Spandam, when you think about it. There was transition in between Enies Lobby and Water 7 (Sea Train). Characters, according to your defition, are also different, since Water 7 lacks half of CP9, Spanda, arguably arc main antagonist, and every marine involved in Buster Call.
The main antagonist of Punk Hazard is Caesar. Doflamingo is the overarching saga villain, just like Crocodile.
From Water 7 we had the antagonists escape to another island. Rob Lucci and his gang weren't defeated on Water 7 like Caesar was on Punk Hazard. What entities and storylines on Enies Lobby existed without the influence of Water 7 characters?
And no, it isn't just "characters". It's how important and relevant they are as their own entity. The dwarf and Riku storylines are exclusive to Dressrosa, and have no connection to Punk Hazard.
While the other half of CP9 suddenly appearing weren't exclusive, Spandam was on the phone with Franky during Enies Lobby, and the random grunt Marines don't count at all.
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You could also argue that One Piece has three arcs in total (East Blue, Grand Line, New World) and there rest are just acts.
Please.
No, you really can't.
You can separate those into sagas and arcs with different antagonists and end goals.
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I'd say, its the fact that the crew came back to Water 7 what confuses everyone, I mean, Impel down and MarineFord have always been considered as two different arcs, even though the goal was the same since Amazon Lily and at the very end Luffy comes back to Amazon Lily, does that make AmazonLily/ImpelDown/MarineFord one arc??
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Yes, that would be the Water 7 saga.
Well then I guess you are confusing cycles and arcs.
You could also argue that One Piece has three arcs in total (East Blue, Grand Line, New World) and there rest are just acts.
Please.
When you have two portions of a story that are so interconnected with each other, where one portion depends so heavily on the the story elements that were carried over from the preceding portion be it antagonists, stakes, character motivations, themes, the GOAL, where one portion IMMEDIATELY leads to the other, no transition, just straight move on to the next location, that's an arc, one arc. I would argue Jaya is more it's own thing compared to Skypiea opposed to Water 7 and Enies Lobby yet people still sweep up the whole thing into one arc. It's one arc. Location and length are irrelevant when everything else is the same.
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@Galaxy:
No, you really can't.
You can separate those into sagas and arcs with different antagonists and end goals.
East Blue goal: get to Grand Line. Grand Line goal: get to New World. New World goal: find One Piece.
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East Blue goal: get to Grand line. Grand line goal: get to New World. New World goal: find One piece.
No?
Again, you can separate those into sagas and arcs with their own unique goals and antagonists. What you're describing is the overall story of the series.
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I'd say, its the fact that the crew came back to Water 7 what confuses everyone, I mean, Impel down and MarineFord have always been considered as two different arcs, even though the goal was the same since Amazon Lily and at the very end Luffy comes back to Amazon Lily, does that make AmazonLily/ImpelDown/MarineFord one arc??
A saga to be specific. While they all had the same core purpose or objective (Rescuing Ace) each had it's own contained characters, story, and villain. Almost all of the arcs in OP fall into a saga (with the exception of Foxy I think) and they are:
East Blue Saga: (From the beginning of OP - The crossing of reverse mountain)
Baroque Works Saga: (Entering the Grand Line - The end of Alabasta)
Skypeia Saga: (Jaya - Landing in the blue sea)
Davy Back Fight Saga: (Contained)
CP9 Saga: (Meeting Aokiji - Leaving with the thousand Sunny)
Whitebeard War Saga: (Thriller Bark - Just before the 2yr skip)
"New World" Saga: (2yr timeskip - Ongoing)
Hope this clears it up.
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@TLC:
When you have two portions of a story that are so interconnected with each other, where one portion depends so heavily on the the story elements that were carried over from the preceding portion be it antagonists, stakes, character motivations, themes, the GOAL, where one portion IMMEDIATELY leads to the other, no transition, just straight move on to the next location, that's an arc, one arc.
No, this is YOUR definition.
As posted above, this is how it really works:
And here you are implying that Water Seven doesn't have any rising action/climax/falling action/resolution.
When we see Lucci and co drop their mask, it is the climax of Water Seven.
Buster call is the climax of Enies lobby. -
@Galaxy:
No?
Again, you can separate those into sagas and arcs with their own unique goals and antagonists. What you're describing is the overall story of the series.
Doflamingo was an antagonist in Punk Hazard.
And there were unique goals in Water 7 unrelated to Enies Lobby.
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No, this is YOUR definition.
As posted above, this is how it really works:http://i.imgur.com/LopXE9u.jpg
And here you are implying that Water Seven doesn't have any rising action/climax/falling action/resolution.
When we see Lucci and co drop their mask, it is the climax of Water Seven.
Buster call is the climax of Enies lobby.Lucci and co was the end of the first act, the point where the heroes are beaten and suffer their lowest moment until they make their recovery and resolve to beat their opponents. Notice how in your "climax", the heroes LOSE.
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A saga to be specific. While they all had the same core purpose or objective (Rescuing Ace) each had it's own contained characters, story, and villain. Almost all of the arcs in OP fall into a saga (with the exception of Foxy I think) and they are:
East Blue Saga: (From the beginning of OP - The crossing of reverse mountain)
Baroque Works Saga: (Entering the Grand Line - The end of Alabasta)
Skypeia Saga: (Jaya - Landing in the blue sea)
Davy Back Fight Saga: (Contained)
CP9 Saga: (Meeting Aokiji - Leaving with the thousand Sunny)
Whitebeard War Saga: (Thriller Bark - Just before the 2yr skip)
"New World" Saga: (2yr timeskip - Ongoing)
Hope this clears it up.
So, Water 7 and Ennies Lobby are indeed two arcs conforming one saga.
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@Galaxy:
No?
Again, you can separate those into sagas and arcs with their own unique goals and antagonists. What you're describing is the overall story of the series.
Look if you follow the official definition of a story arc, posted several times now, Water 7 and Ennies Lobby are 2 different arcs. Also, the goal at the start of Water 7 is not the same as when they reach Ennies Lobby. If it was the same arc, the goal would've stayed the same.
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Doflamingo was an antagonist in Punk Hazard.
He played the same role as Crocodile did during Little Garden and Whiskey Peak. A figure in the shadows giving orders to his subordinates.
By the time he actually decided to go to Punk Hazard, the arc was over and in the transitional phase.
And there were unique goals in Water 7 unrelated to Enies Lobby.
Which ones don't carry over to Enies Lobby?
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@TLC:
Lucci and co was the end of the first act, the point where the heroes are beaten and suffer their lowest moment until they make their recovery and resolve to beat their opponents. Notice how in your "climax", the heroes LOSE.
So? Climax is the point of the highest tension or drama of a narrative. Actually heroes losing is quite fitting for it.
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Look if you follow the official definition of a story arc, posted several times now, Water 7 and Ennies Lobby are 2 different arcs. Also, the goal at the start of Water 7 is not the same as when they reach Ennies Lobby. If it was the same arc, the goal would've stayed the same.
The official definition is some diagram drawn by a Reddit user? It's easy to argue where each of the main elements of the arc fit on that diagram, as well.
The overall goal of the arc is to rescue Robin. That becomes the main focus 10 chapters into the arc, is the reason for staking out Iceburg's home, and the reason for riding the Sea Train to Enies Lobby.
And before you say "the goal was to fix the ship!", that carries over to Enies Lobby as well.
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@Galaxy:
He played the same role as Crocodile did during Little Garden and Whiskey Peak. A figure in the shadows giving orders to his subordinates.
By the time he actually decided to go to Punk Hazard, the arc was over and in the transitional phase.
So you mean like CP9 and Spandam?
@Galaxy:
Which ones don't carry over to Enies Lobby?
Getting new ship. Conflict between Franky and Straw Hats. For example.
Both of those are left in the void.
I could also, technicaly, count Usopp's conflict with Luffy and him leaving the crew, since that got dropped also in favor of Sogeking.
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So, Water 7 and Ennies Lobby are indeed two arcs conforming one saga.
Yes.
As for Whitebeard War, Thriller Bark and Sabaody get added on because they carry elements of ace's execution and the whitebeard war; with Kuma informing Moria of Teach's rise to warlord and of the capture of Ace, and with Sabaody as Ace's execution and war with Whitebeard are announced.
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So you mean like CP9 and Spandam?
The difference being that Spandam's goons weren't defeated on Water 7, and instead ran away to Enies Lobby.
Getting new ship. Conflict between Franky and Straw Hats. For example.
Getting a new ship carried over until the very end. The end of Enies Lobby is burning the ship, and when they return to Water 7, they get the Sunny.
And the Franky conflict was literally resolved in the matter of a few chapters. That plot point was resolved on Water 7 and then those characters became allies and helped the Straw Hats rescue Franky/Robin. These characters got their conclusion back on Water 7.
I could also, technicaly, count Usopp's conflict with Luffy and him leaving the crew, since that got dropped also in favor of Sogeking.
Yet another element that was resolved at the end of Enies Lobby.
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So, why not cut Dressrosa into at least two different arcs, then? Inside the Colosseum is the first arc and outside the Colosseum the second arc. And don't tell there was no climax in the tournament.
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I always thought that with One Piece "arc" is practically synonymous with island. Each island the Straw Hats go to is an arc in and of itself. It can be huge in scope and length, like Skypiea or Dress Rosa, or it can be a five-chapter deal. Maybe the more appropriate term for some of them would be mini-arc. A "saga" is an overarching structure that contains multiple arcs, and usually has a pretty definitive ending whereafter the SHs move on to entirely new things. As far as I know this is how things are generally categorized, even officially. This doesn't necessarily correspond to the "story arc" definition, but you have to keep in mind that we're not operating with absolutes here. Oda is pretty leisurely in how much he lets things from one island spill over into another and how much of the "main plot" of a saga any arc deals with - for example, WP was pretty strictly main plot, Little Garden less so, Drum almost none at all, then Arabasta goes back to 100%. It's easily arguable whether PH-DR constitutes one or two story arcs, depending on the perspective chosen. W7-EL is definitely one overarching story arc, but at the same time, W7 also has distinctive elements to it. Even more connected than W7 and EL are Impel Down and Marineford - the goal remains the exact same the entire way, save Ace from the WG, it's merely the stage that changes - but those are seldom considered a single arc.
I wonder, though, if this distinction will break down after Dress Rosa. So many things that will happen after Dress Rosa have already been foreshadowed and even directly dealt with. Luffy talking with Big Mom, Jinbe going to her, Sanji & CO confronting her or some of her crew and Kid being in conflict with her has already lain down the threads that will lead to her. The threads from the SMILE business lead directly to Kaidou. All of this has been set up during the two full story arcs since the timeskip, Fishman Island and Punk Hazard-Dress Rosa. Oda has never structured his story this way before. The Doflamingo portion of the story is as lengthy and fleshed out as any of the 4 sagas before it but it isn't going to have an ending whereafter we move on to brand new adventures. Rather we just stay on the path toward what's already been quite heavily set up, foreshadowed and indeed even started to happen already, what with half the crew already fighting Big Mom's pirates.
Perhaps we should describe this as a "supersaga", which itself has individual arcs and sagas contained in it, namely the FI arc, PH arc and DR arc, of which PH-DR constitute a "normal" saga. Or maybe the entire New World is going to be a "supersaga".
Aside from semantics, it's at any rate interesting to note how different Oda's story structure is here and I'm very curious as to whether this is something that will continue and make part II of One Piece read quite drastically different from part 1.
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So, why not cut Dressrosa into at least two different arcs, then? Inside the Colosseum is the first arc and outside the Colosseum the second arc. And don't tell there was no climax in the tournament.
I hope you aren't serious, otherwise you have some issues.
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@Galaxy:
The official definition is some diagram drawn by a Reddit user? It's easy to argue where each of the main elements of the arc fit on that diagram, as well.
The overall goal of the arc is to rescue Robin. That becomes the main focus 10 chapters into the arc, is the reason for staking out Iceburg's home, and the reason for riding the Sea Train to Enies Lobby.
And before you say "the goal was to fix the ship!", that carries over to Enies Lobby as well.
Yeah because if you google story arc nothing will come up similar to that definition, sure.
Also as others have pointed out, many other goals don't transition. And Robin is definitely not the main goal 10 chapters in. Just because they look into, why she is acting the way she is, doesn't make her the main goal.
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Greek classics.
Not to mention that what you described is not hero's journey at all.
Technically you could count the Odyssey as Odysseus after winning the battle of troy gets smacked by Poseidon because he thinks he's hot shit and spends many years trying to return to Ithaca.
That being said, a story can also have more than one climax. Actually, depending on how many plot points you have, a story could end up looking something like a stock market graph.
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I would have been very disappointed if someone like Doflamingo would have been defeated in the span of 40 or so chapters in a super sped up way. I'm sure if this arc was shorter many people would have complained about that as well
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Also as others have pointed out, many other goals don't transition. And Robin is definitely not the main goal 10 chapters in. Just because they look into, why she is acting the way she is, doesn't make her the main goal.
So what is the main goal of Water 7 then, according to you? The entire arc after the initial landing and Franky Family conflict is the mystery of Nico Robin, and Luffy's determination to get her back into his crew.
Fixing the ship? - Resolved at the end of Enies Lobby back in Water 7.
Usopp? - Resolved at the end of Enies Lobby back in Water 7.
Robin? - Resolved at the end of Enies Lobby. -
@Galaxy:
The difference being that Spandam's goons weren't defeated on Water 7, and instead ran away to Enies Lobby.
This means nothing, as far a traditional story construction is concerned. Which you have conveniently ignoring, all this time.
@Galaxy:
Getting a new ship carried over until the very end. The end of Enies Lobby is burning the ship, and when they return to Water 7, they get the Sunny.
I wonder how can Enies Lobby have an end if it is integral part of one storyline.
Anyways, the plot was absent for practicaly entire Enies Lobby and only showed up in the last chapter. Again, the same could be said for Doflamingo.
@Galaxy:
And the Franky conflict was literally resolved in the matter of a few chapters. That plot point was resolved on Water 7 and then those characters became allies and helped the Straw Hats rescue Franky/Robin. These characters get their conclusion back on Water 7.
So? It does not make it less unique and not carrying over. You wanted plot points that didn't carry over from Water 7, WHAT OTHER PLOTS COULD THEY BE IF NOT RESOLVED!?
I swear to god, talking to you is one of the most frustrating things ever.
@Galaxy:
Yet another element that was resolved at the end of Enies Lobby.
Really? I recall it being a thing during Water 7.
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Or maybe he doesn't.
If I remember correctly one of the chapter of the SOP strategy had a message on the first page along those lines "after the SOP thing the story moves on to a new arc"those are plotlines, now let's stop being dumb please.
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@Galaxy:
So what is the main goal of Water 7 then, according to you? The entire arc after the initial landing and Franky Family conflict is the mystery of Nico Robin, and Luffy's determination to get her back into his crew.
Fixing the ship? - Resolved at the end of Enies Lobby back in Water 7.
Usopp? - Resolved at the end of Enies Lobby back in Water 7.
Robin? - Resolved at the end of Enies Lobby.It doesn't matter when they are resolved.. The goal in Water 7 was NOT rescuing Robin. It was merely finding out her intentions, and that wasn't even the main goal to begin with. As you just pointed out, there were several other goals. The goal in Ennies Lobby IS to rescue robin - from start to finish. Yes the other goals resolve at the end conveniently, but that doesn't matter at all.
And I don't even know why I brought up goals, as they have nothing to do about it being a seperate arc or not.. If you follow the definition of a story arc anywhere, you can easily seperate the storylines into 2 arcs.
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I always considered Water 7 and Enes Lobby the same arc. Why? Because in my physical copies of the Manga volumes, the back of the volumes give it the same title across all volumes that include Water 7 and Enes Lobby. Davy Back fight might've been included, or was its own thing.
Beyond that, seems like a silly argument to have. It will really depend on how you want to frame the argument. You could say about half of Punk Hazard counts with the Doflamingo stuff, because it was around that point Doflamingo was introduced as the master mind. You could say once the alliance started that anything involving Doflamingo started, as the plan of taking down Smile was to eventually deal with Doflamingo. One could argue all this is really part of the Kaido saga, since it ultimately leads to taking down Kaido. It really just depends on how you form your argument.
Has Dressrosa been the longest single island they been on? Yes. Is that necessarily bad? Depends on your opinion of the arc. Many would say it's bad, others like me would say it is good. I don't think length is exactly the problem though (yes it might be part of the problem, but it's been more execution of the arc).
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It doesn't matter when they are resolved.. The goal in Water 7 was NOT rescuing Robin. It was merely finding out her intentions, and that wasn't even the main goal to begin with. As you just pointed out, there were several other goals. The goal in Ennies Lobby IS to rescue robin - from start to finish. Yes the other goals resolve at the end conveniently, but that doesn't matter at all.
And I don't even know why I brought up goals, as they have nothing to do about it being a seperate arc or not.. If you follow the definition of a story arc anywhere, you can easily seperate the storylines into 2 arcs.
Not a single one of the goals you listed were resolved by the end of Water 7. You can't separate Robin into "finding out intentions" and "rescue". It was always about getting Robin back from the grasps of the CP9.
And once again, by the definition you've posted, the events can be organized in a fashion that makes them an arc. That's already been shown in posts above.
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@Galaxy:
Not a single one of the goals you listed were resolved by the end of Water 7.
The strawhats were seen as bad pirates trying to kill Iceburg. That was resolved. The whole point of Water seven was to find out who shot Iceburg and why Robin was involved. That was resolved as well.
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@Galaxy:
Not a single one of the goals you listed were resolved by the end of Water 7. You can't separate Robin into "finding out intentions" and "rescue". It was always about getting Robin back from the grasps of the CP9.
And once again, by the definition you've posted, the events can be organized in a fashion that makes them an arc. That's already been shown in posts above.
What i meant was that they resolve at the end of Ennies Lobby convieniently, which doesn't matter at all. And yes you can easily seperate the whole thing about Robin. Why wouldn't you? It is definitely not the main goal to rescue her, when they don't even know what her intentions are until late in the arc.
I guess Impel Down and Marineford is 1 arc to you as well - after all, rescuing Ace was the main objective and wasn't resolved until the end of the war.
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if you want to be dumb and consider the colosseum as one arc, so be it, I don't stop you.
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Here's a different way of viewing it. I actually think One Piece arcs can be broadly split into three categories: main arcs, set-up arcs and side arcs. Main arcs either have an isolated, self-contained story to them or are the main arc - the part where the boss is fought, the conflict resolved, you get the drill - of an overarching story containing multiple arcs. Your main arcs would be every arc in East Blue - although it could be argued to be an entire saga - Arabasta, Skypiea, Enies Lobby, Thriller Bark, Marineford, Fishman Island and Dress Rosa. Set-up arcs are arcs that build up toward the main arcs; introducing villains, foreshadowing conflicts, setting up pieces, fighting parts of the villain's organization without fighting the boss themselves, and so on. Side arcs are arcs which are chronologically between arcs that relate to one another but has a self-contained plot for itself. Very short arcs, like Loguetown, should probably also fall under here. The kicker is that nearly every non-main arc is a combination of a side arc and a set-up arc. Take Punk Hazard. Every villain answered to Doflamingo, were a member of his organization, his business, his operations. But with the main villain, Caesar, he was also the antagonist of a story of his own, with the kids and other experiments. This would be the side story aspect, and it's about 50/50 with the Doflamingo set-up stuff. Most arcs are this way but the ratio changes. Davy Back arc was 90% sidestory, then 10% set-up with Aokiji at the end. ID had some small subplots of his own, but it was 90% save-Ace-from-WG. There are probably only two exceptions. With W7/EL, W7 is virtually pure set-up. Drum Island is the opposite end of the spectrum where the main plot was completely cut loose from the vs. Baroque Works plot. You still had some common themes but the plot was independent.
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How long has this arc been going on?
