Chapter 780: "The Heart's Curse"

[The Franky Tank]

@DonPatch:

I've felt this way for a while now. Luffy's move set is getting stale. It's been bigger versions of his pistol and gatling for a while now. I hope we go back to East Blue style fights where Luffy finds clever and inventive ways to use his rubber body and take down opponents.

I didn't think about it till now, but yeah, his move set has definitely become a bit stale. Part of me thinks that it will stay that way, but then again, Oda might have him use creativity to take down the big opponents as time goes on. It seems that the creative stuff has been for the weaker crew members, such as Usopp sniping Sugar, and Robin redirecting Diamantes sword. Most creative thing we've seen from Luffy was at the beginning of the time skip, where he deflected bullets back to people.

[desa]

@The:

Now I haven't been reading One Piece weekly for that long. I only started reading weekly once the time skip happened, so maybe those who have been reading weekly could have a better idea. I wonder if the Law Dying part sticks out more because we are consuming a chapter once a week, sometimes waiting two or more weeks. Maybe if we had been able to read this part of the arc all at once, we wouldn't have discussions on the Law death aspect, but more on other points, and looking at the whole picture?

I was able to focus on other parts, but because of the previous chapter, and having to wait a week for each chapter, certain points will be analyzed for a long time. Since we had so much time to think about it, we all can come to the conclusion that Law will not die. If we were reading through the arc all at once, we would probably move forward because we want to see what will happen, then decide after we had the whole picture.

Nothing wrong with analyzing the chapter, and not liking certain aspects. But also try to think about the bigger picture involved, or the fact that in the grand scheme of things, some parts may not be as significant as they are supposed to be.

Well it is the chapter thread so chapter based analysis is pretty normal. Plus that is the third time we are playing the is Law dead game. In one arc. When you are known for not killing that can be seen as cheap drama. especially if you force it as a cliffangher for the break just to reused it again in the next chapter.

From reading as bunch I remember thinking: Pell was a waste(From that day I understood Oda wouldn't kill anymore), Bellamy was not dead but simply cast away(I was surprise people thought he was), Pagaya was funny(his reaction to his death makes me think Oda was teasing his readers), cheap tension with the Franky Family(I remember asking myself what was the point before realizing it ended a chapter), Ace was surprising(but the execution ridiculous), Whitebeard was expected and good(but I hate the one piece exist part).

[The Franky Tank]

@desa:

Well it is the chapter thread so chapter based analysis is pretty normal. Plus that is the third time we are playing the is Law dead game. In one arc. When you are known for not killing that can be seen as cheap drama. especially if you force it as a cliffangher for the break just to reused it again in the next chapter.

From reading as bunch I remember thinking: Pell was a waste(From that day I understood Oda wouldn't kill anymore), Bellamy was not dead but simply cast away(I was surprise people thought he was), Pagaya was funny(his reaction to his death makes me think Oda was teasing his readers), cheap tension with the Franky Family(I remember asking myself what was the point before realizing it ended a chapter), Ace was surprising(but the execution ridiculous), Whitebeard was expected and good(but I hate the one piece exist part).

True, and I didn't mean to imply Laws death part isn't a huge part or issue. I was trying to say that sometimes, try to not focus on a certain aspect, and you might see a chapter in a different manner. Such as if you think less about Laws death this chapter, and focus on him Mocking Doflamingo and look at the fight stuff, you may see things differently. To each their own in the end though, and I'm not trying to say people don't have their points.

[Bittersweet Pirate]

@The:

True, and I didn't mean to imply Laws death part isn't a huge part or issue. I was trying to say that sometimes, try to not focus on a certain aspect, and you might see a chapter in a different manner. Such as if you think less about Laws death this chapter, and focus on him Mocking Doflamingo and look at the fight stuff, you may see things differently. To each their own in the end though, and I'm not trying to say people don't have their points.

Definitely. This is it exactly.

[andy]

@The:

Now I haven't been reading One Piece weekly for that long. I only started reading weekly once the time skip happened, so maybe those who have been reading weekly could have a better idea. I wonder if the Law Dying part sticks out more because we are consuming a chapter once a week, sometimes waiting two or more weeks. Maybe if we had been able to read this part of the arc all at once, we wouldn't have discussions on the Law death aspect, but more on other points, and looking at the whole picture?

I was able to focus on other parts, but because of the previous chapter, and having to wait a week for each chapter, certain points will be analyzed for a long time. Since we had so much time to think about it, we all can come to the conclusion that Law will not die. If we were reading through the arc all at once, we would probably move forward because we want to see what will happen, then decide after we had the whole picture.

Nothing wrong with analyzing the chapter, and not liking certain aspects. But also try to think about the bigger picture involved, or the fact that in the grand scheme of things, some parts may not be as significant as they are supposed to be.

Yep reading in vol format is very different , things that are cliffhangers weekly are not the same in vols , story points also happen faster to the reader .
This arc where it jumps about form perspective to perspective is also not as annoying , it's a very different experience which is why i normally read over arcs when they done.
Still this is a weekly chapter discussions thread so that is what we discuss but people who only read OP is vol format would not notice certain cliffhangers even more so with the effect of a weekly break having on them .

[RomanceDawn]

@desa:

Well it is the chapter thread so chapter based analysis is pretty normal. Plus that is the third time we are playing the is Law dead game. In one arc. When you are known for not killing that can be seen as cheap drama. especially if you force it as a cliffangher for the break just to reused it again in the next chapter.

From reading as bunch I remember thinking: Pell was a waste(From that day I understood Oda wouldn't kill anymore), Bellamy was not dead but simply cast away(I was surprise people thought he was), Pagaya was funny(his reaction to his death makes me think Oda was teasing his readers), cheap tension with the Franky Family(I remember asking myself what was the point before realizing it ended a chapter), Ace was surprising(but the execution ridiculous), Whitebeard was expected and good(but I hate the one piece exist part).

You are a villain and a knave!

[Darth]

@desa:

From reading as bunch I remember thinking: Pell was a waste(From that day I understood Oda wouldn't kill anymore), Bellamy was not dead but simply cast away(I was surprise people thought he was), Pagaya was funny(his reaction to his death makes me think Oda was teasing his readers), cheap tension with the Franky Family(I remember asking myself what was the point before realizing it ended a chapter), Ace was surprising(but the execution ridiculous), Whitebeard was expected and good**(but I hate the one piece exist part).**

Heh, I remember when I cause several pages of discussion to erupt when I critisised Whitebeard for that in one of the older threads.

Good times were had.

[The Franky Tank]

@Darth:

Heh, I remember when I cause several pages of discussion to erupt when I critisised Whitebeard for that in one of the older threads.

Good times were had.

Do you know what thread that was? I'd be interested to see the arguments. I can't say if it was good or bad, because I never really thought about it, but I would like to see the two sides.

[Spinx]

One piece exists part is my favorite. What a giant fuck you to the World Government.

[Darth]

@The:

Do you know what thread that was? I'd be interested to see the arguments. I can't say if it was good or bad, because I never really thought about it, but I would like to see the two sides.

City_Lights's character evaluation thread, if I believe.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Spinx:

One piece exists part is my favorite. What a giant fuck you to the World Government.

And Fishmen. And ordinary citizens. And yes, Islands that were left protectionless by Whitebeards death.

You know, it's quite popular to say it like "HA! Good man, Whitebeard, stick it to The Man!", but then you realise that to the majority of people that will suffer in ensuring chaos goverment is an organisation that takes their taxes from them.

Really now. Actual corrupted parts of the WG are well protected. And I cannot possibly approve of actions that cause that much damage and are seemingly only done to spite people in power.

You know, Akainu blowing up the ship full of civilians was a despicable act, but at least the motives behind it could be considered a justification for it.

[The Franky Tank]

Just one comment about what White Beard said, then I won't keep to that topic.

I saw it as a FU to the WG, but more for trying to reinvigorate the Pirate age. I would guess that with the Yonkou stalemate, along other things, you probably had people less inclined to go for the treasure (High, High speculation here with no proof to back up). If you see how people reacted to him saying it, people started to get excited at the prospect, and started to move. So yeah, all well and good to tell the WG that they are not the best, but getting the pirates excited to start rampaging through islands wasn't the best thing.

[desa]

@The:

True, and I didn't mean to imply Laws death part isn't a huge part or issue. I was trying to say that sometimes, try to not focus on a certain aspect, and you might see a chapter in a different manner. Such as if you think less about Laws death this chapter, and focus on him Mocking Doflamingo and look at the fight stuff, you may see things differently. To each their own in the end though, and I'm not trying to say people don't have their points.

Well I didn't mind the chapter personally. I liked the start of the fight and Law still giving the bird to Doflamingo metaphorically but also physically(I just wish Doffly would have break it). The shooting Law extensively also had some impact. But I realize we just got a flashback to explain last week cliffhanger, I do think Oda is squeezing the Is-he-dead cow a too much and to obviously. Especially with that many fake-out. So not that problematic but not that insignificant either.

[Galaxy 9000]

@Darth:

And Fishmen. And ordinary citizens. And yes, Islands that were left protectionless by Whitebeards death.

You know, it's quite popular to say it like "HA! Good man, Whitebeard, stick it to The Man!", but then you realise that to the majority of people that will suffer in ensuring chaos goverment is an organisation that takes their taxes from them.

I really don't think that's supposed to be taken from that scene. Yes, the world was torn upside down, but it reaffirmed the Great Pirate Era's place as an era of dreams and ambitions for good pirates and "bad" pirates alike.

It was the same thing with Roger, really. Less of a personal attack towards the government, and more of a way to inspire people.

On the subject of his islands, they would've had the same fate regardless, due to Blackbeard taking over most of them (and Big Mom taking over Fishman Island, which is equally bad).

You know, Akainu blowing up the ship full of civilians was a despicable act, but at least the motives behind it could be considered a justification for it.

This is still very much unjustified on all grounds. Sakazuki did this due to his warped sense of justice.

[asm00200]

@The:

Just one comment about what White Beard said, then I won't keep to that topic.

I saw it as a FU to the WG, but more for trying to reinvigorate the Pirate age. I would guess that with the Yonkou stalemate, along other things, you probably had people less inclined to go for the treasure (High, High speculation here with no proof to back up). If you see how people reacted to him saying it, people started to get excited at the prospect, and started to move. So yeah, all well and good to tell the WG that they are not the best, but getting the pirates excited to start rampaging through islands wasn't the best thing.

The world of One Piece is not static. Things are moving and changing, and Whitebeard would've died in the end. Neither he nor anyone else expected his protection to last forever.

As for igniting the Pirate age again, it's very simple. The end goal is what made Whitebeard start it again, living a slave but under protection is not that fun when you actually think about it. So, what's left is to change or help start the change that will end WG control over the people and establish the world of the free.

If not then what do you expect? A peacful change in the WG? Or are you happy with things staying the same?

[desa]

@RomanceDawn:

You are a villain and a knave!

Don't get me wrong.I don't mind the one piece existence or claiming it does. I mind Whitebeard having to end up his life while mirroring Roger. Especially with him having already established that what he cared about was his family. His little warning to Sengoku should have been the end to it and his last words been for his sons. But then again I wouldn't be able to hate Marineford from start to finish if I considered this part as good.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Darth:

Heh, I remember when I cause several pages of discussion to erupt when I critisised Whitebeard for that in one of the older threads.

Good times were had.

You mean being morally wrong? It's true that being in the golden age of piracy I doubt you need any more pirates out there. Especially since as a protector of many islands you know how troublesome this bunch is. Let the "end justify motivating criminal to travel around the globe" to Roger and keep your legacy as a "good father".

[Darth]

@Galaxy:

I really don't think that's supposed to be taken from that scene. Yes, the world was torn upside down, but it reaffirmed the Great Pirate Era's place as an era of dreams and ambitions for good pirates and "bad" pirates alike.

It was the same thing with Roger, really. Less of a personal attack towards the government, and more of a way to inspire people.

On the subject of his islands, they would've had the same fate regardless, due to Blackbeard taking over most of them (and Big Mom taking over Fishman Island, which is equally bad).

Really? Good pirates? And pray tell, which good pirates do you mean? Straw Hats?

Least you forget, Whitebeard got his reputation for ruthlessly destroying anybody who dared to touch his family. If Lucky Roo is any indication, Red Hair pirates are equally ruthless.

That does not account for the fact that the evil pirates are quite clearly more common placed than good ones.

I hardly think the entire world would suffer the same fate regardless of Whitebeards words which sent thousands of people on to the sea, most with less than good intentions.

Roger destroyed countries over grudges! Don't pretend his or Whitebeards actions aren't morally questionable at best, because they are.

@Galaxy:

This is still very much unjustified on my grounds. Sakazuki did this due to his warped sense of justice.

Here, fixed that for ya.

Seriously, we live in a world where atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are frequently portrayed as necessary evil with overall good results, and you think blowing a ship to stop a possible world war with the use of ancient super weapons is not a justification?

Killing people's bad, thank you for the truism, but hardly unjustifieable.

It's like basics of political realism and consequentionalism just flew over your head.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@asm00200:

As for igniting the Pirate age again, it's very simple. The end goal is what made Whitebeard start it again, living a slave but under protection is not that fun when you actually think about it. So, what's left is to change or help start the change that will end WG control over the people and establish the world of the free.

Is it?

Imagine that you are actually living as ordinary person in the world of one piece. Not as one of the free super-humans that can shatter stone pillars with their hands, cut ships in half, or create wast amounts of flame.

Imagine that you run a bar, and one day you find it destroyed, and your patrons killed, because one of them laughed at Kid.

Imagine that your son joined the marines and got himself killed because Whitebeard wanted freedom for his son.

People speak of freedom as if it was the concept to trump all, but for some reason always fail to account for a common man. Your average citizens cares less about "Freedom" and more about having something to eat next day. Or indeed, not being murdered by pirates that want to resuply without paying. Or are offended by one of your friends. Or just bored.

[asm00200]

@Darth:

Seriously, we live in a world where atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are frequently portrayed as necessary evil with overall good results, and you think blowing a ship to stop a possible world war with the use of ancient super weapons is not a justification?

Killing people's bad, thank you for the truism, but hardly unjustifieable.

It's like basics of political realism and consequentionalism just flew over your head.

And that's how every crime is justifiable.

But wait, why do you seems OK with it? Why can't you think differently? If a stronger criminal justifies his crime, then why are you repeating their propaganda.
Oh, I forgot. That's REALITY!!1!!

[Darth]

@asm00200:

And that's how every crime is justifiable.

Not really. There are crimes that are not justifiable according to those guidelines. For example, most of war crimes. Or systematic ethnic cleansing. Both of those would be unjustifiable, since they are, usually, without rational behind it, and in fact counter-productive to the safety and prosperity of the citizens.

Common murder would also be unjustifiable, usually, by said guidelines, since private interest of one cannot be above law nor above life of another.

Consequentionalism, and political realism are tricky beasts, and I will not have them slandered by your generalisation and reductionism, thank you.

[asm00200]

@Darth:

Is it?

Imagine that you are actually living as ordinary person in the world of one piece. Not as one of the free super-humans that can shatter stone pillars with their hands, cut ships in half, or create wast amounts of flame.

Imagine that you run a bar, and one day you find it destroyed, and your patrons killed, because one of them laughed at Kid.

Imagine that your son joined the marines and got himself killed because Whitebeard wanted freedom for his son.

People speak of freedom as if it was the concept to trump all, but for some reason always fail to account for a common man. Your average citizens cares less about "Freedom" and more about having something to eat next day. Or indeed, not being murdered by pirates that want to resuply without paying. Or are offended by one of your friends. Or just bored.

How is that different from being under WG control? If you raise your head near a CD you get killed since you're a lesser being. Your island is under the risk of Buster Call if needed? You can be a crimnal as you like as long as your under the WG and destroy anything you want. Why did FI needed protection from anyway? Pirates and Marines. Slavery? No it's call, you get to go home at night… or maybe night, as long as you're a good slave!

People care about freedom for what it brings with it: safety, peace, living, etc... WG type shit doesn't come peacefully, neither does its opposite unfortunately.

--- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Darth:

Not really. There are crimes that are not justifiable according to those guidelines. For example, most of war crimes. Or systematic ethnic cleansing. Both of those would be unjustifiable, since they are, usually, without rational behind it, and in fact counter-productive to the safety and prosperity of the citizens.

Common murder would also be unjustifiable, usually, by said guidelines, since private interest of one cannot be above law nor above life of another.

Consequentionalism, and political realism are tricky beasts, and I will not have them slandered by your generalisation and reductionism, thank you.

All you need is a strong media, and for the other big states/medias to stay quiet for a crime to be dismissed or even celebrated. It's that simple.

If you come after 100 years to admit your murder then what would that do to me the victim?

[Galaxy 9000]

@Darth:

Really? Good pirates? And pray tell, which good pirates do you mean? Straw Hats?

Let's define "good pirates" as those that don't just go around doing harm to innocents intentionally (most of the antagonists in this series).

Least you forget, Whitebeard got his reputation for ruthlessly destroying anybody who dared to touch his family. If Lucky Roo is any indication, Red Hair pirates are equally ruthless.

What's your point here? The good pirates depicted in this series still aren't saints. They protect their friends and families from the people that harm them… something any moral human would do.

That does not account for the fact that the evil pirates are quite clearly more common placed than good ones.

This is true.

I hardly think the entire world would suffer the same fate regardless of Whitebeards words which sent thousands of people on to the sea, most with less than good intentions.

Once again, the point of Whitebeard's words were to reestablish the Great Pirate Era's place as an era of dreams and ambitions, just as Roger did before him. Yeah, there are side effects, but it doesn't detract from the original point one bit.

Roger destroyed countries over grudges! Don't pretend his or Whitebeards actions aren't morally questionable at best, because they are.

If I recall correctly, he wiped out the militaries of these countries, because they spoke ill of his friends (and you can very much bet these people were "cartoonishly evil" and actually did something notable to anger him). These aren't innocents you're talking about here.

Seriously, we live in a world where atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are frequently portrayed as necessary evil with overall good results, and you think blowing a ship to stop a possible world war with the use of ancient super weapons is not a justification?

The atomic bombs being dropped is a highly controversial topic still argued over today. It was an awful event that targeted innocent civilians, just as the Ohara bombing did. I really hope you don't honestly believe that this real life event was a "necessary evil".

You don't even try to consider other options that Sakazuki had either… like I don't know... inspecting who was on the ship instead of needlessly taking lives?

And you know what actually matters in the end here? The author did not portray this event as something that should be debated as a "necessary evil". Sakazuki was obviously portrayed as the bad guy from Robin and Kuzan's perspective, end of story.

[Darth]

@asm00200:

How is that different from being under WG control? If you raise your head near a CD you get killed since you're a lesser being. Your island is under the risk of Buster Call if needed? You can be a crimnal as you like as long as your under the WG and destroy anything you want. Why did FI needed protection from anyway? Pirates and Marines. Slavery? No it's call, you get to go home at night… or maybe night, as long as you're a good slave!

CD's and Slavery are indeed problems, but no goverment is perfect. Buster Call is not as easily used as you imply it to be. Bolded part, I assume, is about Shichibukai, who are obligated to not cause harm to the WG or it's citizens. That the story requires it to fail is another thing altogether. Don't recall FI needing protection from Marines, I will have you show me the source for that.

@asm00200:

People care about freedom for what it brings with it: safety, peace, living, etc… WG type shit doesn't come peacefully, neither does its opposite unfortunately.

Safety, peace, living? How do you tie those things to the concept of Freedom?

Are you happy that you are not being mugged everytime you go out into the streets? You know why that is? Because you have law, that will take away freedom of somebody to do that to you, with law enforcers enforcing it, possibly forcibly taking away freedom of perpetrator.

You enjoy the concepts you listed because law takes away the freedom of other people, not because of Freedom itself. Ability to express yourself, to move freely about, to choose your future job and education, or to simply enjoy the work of art without being stopped are your privaleges granted to you by Freedom.

Do not mistake it for flawless good universal force.

@asm00200:

All you need is a strong media, and for the other big states/medias to stay quiet for a crime to be dismissed or even celebrated. It's that simple.

We are not talking about public opinions of sheeps, but about actual morality here. Propaganda is not what makes something justifiable.

[asm00200]

@Darth:

CD's and Slavery are indeed problems, but no goverment is perfect. Buster Call is not as easily used as you imply it to be. Bolded part, I assume, is about Shichibukai, who are obligated to not cause harm to the WG or it's citizens. That the story requires it to fail is another thing altogether. Don't recall FI needing protection from Marines, I will have you show me the source for that.

Safety, peace, living? How do you tie those things to the concept of Freedom?

Are you happy that you are not being mugged everytime you go out into the streets? You know why that is? Because you have law, that will take away freedom of somebody to do that to you, with law enforcers enforcing it, possibly forcibly taking away freedom of perpetrator.

You enjoy the concepts you listed because law takes away the freedom of other people, not because of Freedom itself. Ability to express yourself, to move freely about, to choose your future job and education, or to simply enjoy the work of art without being stopped are your privaleges granted to you by Freedom.

Do not mistake it for flawless good universal force.

Did I really need to explain to you what I mean by freedom? Of course I'm not talking about lawless chaos-freedom!

The goal is a better world not a prison nor a farm.

We are not talking about public opinions of sheeps, but about actual morality here. Propaganda is not what makes something justifiable.

In the real world it does. And funnily in WG's One Piece to some extent.

[Darth]

@asm00200:

Did I really need to explain to you what I mean by freedom? Of course I'm not talking about lawless chaos-freedom!

The goal is a better world not a prison nor a farm.

Freedom, in it's most basic definition, is: The power or right to speak, act or think as one wants.

I assume what you are talking about is some unspecified, romanticised and undefined concept that works very well until some takes it under scrutiny.

So yes, I want you explain to me what you mean by Freedom, since it clearly doesn't match what the word actually means.

@asm00200:

In the real world it does. And funnily in WG's One Piece to some extent.

No, it doesn't. It can make something widely accepted as correct, but that is ad populum fallacy, and does not actually mean being right from the moral standpoint.

Justification is something different.

[Cyan D. Funk]

In absolutely no way are the atomic bombs and Akainu blowing up a civilian ship for no real reason equivalent things.

Stop making that stupid fucking comparison because it's really goddamn clear you haven't actually researched it.

[RamistaR]

@Darth:

So yes, I want you explain to me what you mean by Freedom, since it clearly doesn't match what the word actually means..

As if you really can't guess what kind of freedom he is referring to.

[Darth]

@Galaxy:

Let's define "good pirates" as those that don't just go around doing harm to innocents intentionally (most of the antagonists in this series).

I can agree upon that.

@Galaxy:

What's your point here? The good pirates depicted in this series still aren't saints. They protect their friends and families from the people that harm them… something any moral human would do.

True. Just pointing out double standarts.

@Galaxy:

This is true.

Glad we agree.

@Galaxy:

Once again, the point of Whitebeard's words were to reestablish the Great Pirate Era's place as an era of dreams and ambitions, just as Roger did before him. Yeah, there are side effects, but it doesn't detract from the original point one bit.

I am consequentionalist, and you making a deontologist statement. We will not agree on it.

Even if that was the intention of Whitebeards words, he should have also taken into account the consequences of them, of which he seemed to be aware. If he did, and he decided that re-igniting the era of dreams was worth the blood, the he is morally questionable from my point of view, at best.
@Galaxy:

If I recall correctly, he wiped out the militaries of these countries, because they spoke ill of his friends (and you can very much bet these people were "cartoonishly evil" and actually did something notable to anger him). These aren't innocents you're talking about here.

Actually, I don't believe we got a single group that would be portrayed as universaly cartoonishly evil. Not even CDs, since we now have Homing, who was an idiot, but we can't really question his morality too much.

Do you really believe those countries military were compromised solely out of villains? I don't.

@Galaxy:

The atomic bombs being dropped is a highly controversial topic still argued over today. It was an awful event that targeted innocent civilians, just as the Ohara bombing did. I really hope you don't honestly believe that this real life event was a "necessary evil".

There are some good arguments on both sides.

I'm of the opinion that it was morally evil, and the country that claims to be defender of freedom and morality should definetely punish the people responsible.

If it was necessary, I'm mixed about it. Or if it was justifiable, for that matter.

@Galaxy:

You don't even try to consider other options that Sakazuki had either… like I don't know... inspecting who was on the ship instead of needlessly taking lives?

Silly, I've had it told to me so many times I've considered it carefuly for months.

How can you actually do it with any degree of certainty? Especially after Robin proved that people other then certified archeologist could have acces to the information?

@Galaxy:

And you know what actually matters in the end here? The author did not portray this event as something that should be debated as a "necessary evil". Sakazuki was obviously portrayed as the bad guy from Robin and Kuzan's perspective, end of story.

True, but thanks to this little book, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_the_Author we don't actually need to take in the intentions of the author.

And for that matter, while I can agree that Oda intended for scene to be interpreted as evil, I don't know if I can agree that he intended for it to be considered absolutly unjustifiable.

[Raistlin]

@desa:

From reading as bunch I remember thinking: Pell was a waste(From that day I understood Oda wouldn't kill anymore), Bellamy was not dead but simply cast away(I was surprise people thought he was), Pagaya was funny(his reaction to his death makes me think Oda was teasing his readers), cheap tension with the Franky Family(I remember asking myself what was the point before realizing it ended a chapter), Ace was surprising(but the execution ridiculous), Whitebeard was expected and good(but I hate the one piece exist part).

I've sort of felt that when it comes to killing named characters, Oda operates under a form of retaliatory or compensatory justice. What I mean is that villains who directly kill someone close to a nakama or SH member is removed from the story, just not necessarily killed on screen. Arlong and Hodi Jones are clear examples, the first killed Bellemere, the second killed Queen Otohime. Although we never see them get their comeuppance on screen, their last scene leaves the readers to make up their own conclusion. Arlong could still be alive somewhere rotting in a Marine jail, then again maybe he was executed. Both are likely. Hodi could still be alive in FI but his days are numbered since he has aged rapidly. What matters is Oda will never show these characters again on screen - a just retaliation or compensation for them taking away someone's most precious mentor/parent figure.

With Aokiji who directly killed Saul, compensation rather than retaliation seems to be the order of the day. Aokiji may have become a changed man after killing his friend. That change led to his ambivalent and later almost guardian like attitude displayed towards Robin, wondering how she will live her life.

In a way something similar occurs with WB and Ace - though both serve important plot reasons but WB's defining power is reborn in BB and Ace is (as some have stated) compensated by Sabo another brother who has the mera -mera. They die and are removed but compensated by being replaced.

Crocodile, Enel, Spandam, Lucci, Foxxy, Moria were all nasty pieces of work in their own right but they never removed another character's mentor/parent/guardian figure from OP permanently directly - so Oda does not remove them either but has showcased all of them again whether in story or in cove pages. Except Foxxy i think, or has he appeared? meh

[Darth]

@RamistaR:

As if you really can't guess what kind of freedom he is referring to.

Hell no. Do you even know how many more specific defitions of Freedom exist?

I can accurately guess he is referring to one of the anglosphere theories, but which one specificaly, I could not begin to guess with how vague the discussion was so far.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Cyan:

In absolutely no way are the atomic bombs and Akainu blowing up a civilian ship for no real reason equivalent things.

Stop making that stupid fucking comparison because it's really goddamn clear you haven't actually researched it.

Act of attrocities against civilian population commited on an assumption supported by evidence that the contrary actions would lead to greater loss of life.

There are some differences, but all and all the situations have enough in common for comparison to be valid.

And it's not like you've provided any evidence that it is not a valid comparison. Which would lead me to the conclusion that it you who haven't done any research.

[Razh]

@Doffy.:

best.post.in.this.entire.thread!

Really? The tone in it sucks, though. Way too much emotion.

[RamistaR]

@Darth:

I can accurately guess he is referring to one of the anglosphere theories, but which one specificaly, I could not begin to guess with how vague the discussion was so far.

Asm00200 spoke with his own words. He didn't refer to anything. And those few words about freedom were pretty easy to understand IMO. And I don't know shit.
It should be even easier for you.

[Shobu Yoruichi]

@Razh:

Really? The tone in it sucks, though. Way too much emotion.

The thread already sucks.

After Dress; Usopp will have 200 mil berries as bounty

[Razh]

@Shobu:

After Dress; Usopp will have 200 mil berries as bounty

Maybe he'll have a higher bounty than Sanji.

[BingBang]

The point here is that Law will die. That's sure. Oda introduced the Perennial Youth Operation to be used in some point in the story. All the D's die in some moment to change things.

[Sarrik]

@Shobu:

The thread already sucks.

After Dress; Usopp will have 200 mil berries as bounty

Hahaha that would be funny and Usopp does deserve a bounty increase I bet he would be scared knowing that too which makes it even funnier.

[ARTEMlS]

I agree with quite the most what Darth said in this topic.

However, there is one assumption which isn't certain at the moment. Namely, that the bloody climax actually has started for sure.
I consider this chapter more as a set-up chapter for the real climax and therefore actually like it.

What I expect from the upcoming chapters is something that really lets skyrocket the tension up to eleven.
Something like Doffy actually showing some manipulation and businessman skills and presenting us some cleverly thought-out treaty with Big Mom or Blackbeard/Burgess.
Then I can see him gaining the upper hand in his fight against Luffy and holding one of his famous speeches in-midst the surroundings engulfed in complete chaos so that all the other characters are adequately engaged as well - just right for Luffy to stand up again for the real final battle.

[Razh]

@BingBang:

The point here is that Law will die. That's sure. Oda introduced the Perennial Youth Operation to be used in some point in the story. All the D's die in some moment to change things.

It doesn't have to mean Law will use it on someone. Might just be a plot device to stop Dofla from killing Law earlier, or maybe it will be revealed that it was already used on someone in the past.

Blackbeard maybe. :ninja:

[uniaka ikuzakas]

@Razh:

Maybe he'll have a higher bounty than Sanji.

How about no. Sanji has the biggest, got from his time with the crew, first bounty from the SHs. We don't even know if EoS usopp will have more then 100.000.000 or close to that.

The only one who had a bigger first bounty then Sanji is Robin, and it was just a bit more.

[Razh]

@uniaka:

How about no. Sanji has the biggest, based on his actions, first bounty from the crew. We don't even know if EoS ussop will have more then 100.000.000 or close to that.

It was a joke.

But I'll laugh at you really hard if Usopp skips over Sanji. I'll find this post and then link a picture of Nelson from Simpsons in reply.

Let's be honest, Sanji didn't really have much luck with Wanted posters (or in general).

[Darth]

@RamistaR:

Asm00200 spoke with his own words. He didn't refer to anything. And those few words about freedom were pretty easy to understand IMO. And I don't know shit.
It should be even easier for you.

Yes he did. However, what he was talking about stands in opposition of Freedom, not in favor of it. In fact, conflict of Security vs Freedom is one of the oldest debates in political sciences and philosophy. Freedom does not provide safety. Neither it does peace nor living. None of these concepts can be attributed to freedom, and in the case of safety, they stand on opposite end of the spectrum.

Knowing more just makes me more confused. That's why I asked for clarification; if one wishes to engage in debate proper, one should make sure one knows exactly what the other speaks off.

I could make a guess, but that could as well lead to me guessing wrong. Better safe then sorry.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Bartholemew:

However, there is one assumption which isn't certain at the moment. Namely, that the bloody climax actually has started for sure.
I consider this chapter more as a set-up chapter for the real climax and therefore actually like it.

It is, however, a reasonable assumption to make.

@Bartholemew:

What I expect from the upcoming chapters is something that really lets skyrocket the tension up to eleven.

You are significantly more optimistic then I am. I just hope that the fight will turn out okay…

@Bartholemew:

Something like Doffy actually showing some manipulation and businessman skills and presenting us some cleverly thought-out treaty with Big Mom or Blackbeard/Burgess.

That would be nice, but isn't it a little too late for that?

@Bartholemew:

Then I can see him gaining the upper hand in his fight against Luffy and holding one of his famous speeches in-midst the surroundings engulfed in complete chaos so that all the other characters are adequately engaged as well - just right for Luffy to stand up again for the real final battle.

In what exactly would other characters be engaged in?

This is a legitimate question. The only I see it happening is Dofla taking Mansherry back, but that seems somewhat unlikely.

[uniaka ikuzakas]

@Razh:

It was a joke.

But I'll laugh at you really hard if Usopp skips over Sanji. I'll find this post and then link a picture of Nelson from Simpsons in reply.

Let's be honest, Sanji didn't really have much luck with Wanted posters (or in general).

As the 'invisible man' gag yes, but don't think the bounty value will also be low.

And I would not be surprised if Sanji's final wanted poster in the manga won't have his real face. Maybe that's Sanji's name at the end ' The invisible man, Blackleg'.

[Razh]

@uniaka:

As the 'invisible man' gag yes, but don't think the bounty value will also be low.

And I would not be surprised if Sanji's final wanted poster in the manga won't have his real face. Maybe that's Sanji's name at the end ' The invisible man, Blackleg'.

Seriously, though, I don't think Sanji and the others being excluded from the latter parts of Dressrosa should create such a difference in bounties.

And this whole Bad Luck Brian/Yamcha thing with Sanji is getting really tedious.

[Vectorkov]

@Darth:

I am consequentionalist, and you making a deontologist statement. We will not agree on it.

Deontologist? Could you cool it on the academic vernacular Captain Pedantic? You're making me look words up…

@Darth:

Even if that was the intention of Whitebeards words, he should have also taken into account the consequences of them, of which he seemed to be aware. If he did, and he decided that re-igniting the era of dreams was worth the blood, the he is morally questionable from my point of view, at best.

I think he absolutely knew the consequences of his actions and believed that they would ultimately lead to a better world.

On that thought, is there any pirate group in One Piece that isn't morally questionable?

@Galaxy:

The atomic bombs being dropped is a highly controversial topic still argued over today. It was an awful event that targeted innocent civilians, just as the Ohara bombing did. I really hope you don't honestly believe that this real life event was a "necessary evil".

This isn't an uncommon viewpoint, at least around here. I remember being the only person in my high-school history class to argue against it being necessary. :sideways:

On the topic of Law dying… does he truly have any dreams beyond taking down Doflamingo? I know he has stated other dreams, but his focus on revenge has severely overshadowed everything else. He's going to need to find a new purpose for living after this is all over.

[DonPatch]

@The:

I didn't think about it till now, but yeah, his move set has definitely become a bit stale. Part of me thinks that it will stay that way, but then again, Oda might have him use creativity to take down the big opponents as time goes on. It seems that the creative stuff has been for the weaker crew members, such as Usopp sniping Sugar, and Robin redirecting Diamantes sword. Most creative thing we've seen from Luffy was at the beginning of the time skip, where he deflected bullets back to people.

I can see Oda varying Luffy's moves eventually cause you're right that he'll need some new tactics to bring down bigger opponents. It may even be during the Doflamingo fight where we see some clever strategies. It is the start of the fight after all. But for now I'll say Luffy's moves while lacking variety lately have not over stayed their welcome.

[ARTEMlS]

@Darth:

It is, however, a reasonable assumption to make.

Yeah, I just was saying it's not completely sure.

@Darth:

You are significantly more optimistic then I am. I just hope that the fight will turn out okay…

I guess so., yes. :happy:
Looking from what you wrote, we both started to stop liking the arc around the same time. For you, it was around chapter 735, right? For me, it's 731 which was a huge step in the wrong direction. Instead of us/the Strawhats having to figure out the actual toy mystery we got a huge exposition bomb. Like "long-build up empire my ass - just knock out that girl". Didn't really like that development.
But I didn't give up hope for the climax.

@Darth:

That would be nice, but isn't it a little too late for that?

Well, if there is any kind of treaty, it has to have been made prior to now, of course. He might have treaties with other Yonkous aside from Kaido. Of course, for that he has to be a skilled negotiator like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_von_Bismarck#Foreign_policies. For example, with BB I could imagine it somehow like this:

• BB and Doffy first met at the dinner at Mariejois and found themselves somewhat symphathetic
• during the 2 years of the time skip they started some kind of business relationship
• that business was actually the reason Burgess is on Dressrosa now and he competed for the fruit as oppurtunist and mostly for the fun
• during the later events Doffy somewhen contacted Burgess and made up a deal with him and BB

Especially considering Burgess being that absent, I can imagine him doing some preparations for whatever the actual deal might be.

@Darth:

In what exactly would other characters be engaged in?

This is a legitimate question. The only I see it happening is Dofla taking Mansherry back, but that seems somewhat unlikely.

Well, assuming there is some kind of another treaty, the engagement completely depends on what actions the involved Yonkou crew will take.

Generally spoken, I think the deal is something like in exchange for xxxx, you help me cleaning up the whole mess and also take the blame for whatever I cannot cover alone.

I really hope for the climax to present me a situation where Doffy has an actual chance of leaving the battle as a winner.

[Sick_Fool]

Alright, I betrayed the promise I made to myself, went to see this week's dose of negativity brought to us by the same people, then I read this:

@Kirk:

Oh look, Cyan D funk, believing into Moria's death like a moron http://www.apforums.net/showthread.php?t=28548&page=62&p=1749833&viewfull=1#post1749833
http://www.apforums.net/showthread.php?t=28548&page=63&p=1750227&viewfull=1#post1750227
http://www.apforums.net/showthread.php?t=28548&page=64&p=1752243&viewfull=1#post1752243

and here we have a sarcastic comment about Bellamy being alive, wonderfull:
http://www.apforums.net/showthread.php?t=28548&page=65&p=1753000&viewfull=1#post1753000

reading this thread is really refreshing. You get all the same "elitist" people arguing that Moria is dead because they know everything about Oda's writing and so on.

LOL. Desperate, aren't we? I wouldn't even do this, no matter how much I disliked you and your brigade shoving negativity down our throats every week. This is just hilarious and sad at the same time.

[Sephi]

@Darth:

Hell no. Do you even know how many more specific defitions of Freedom exist?

I can accurately guess he is referring to one of the anglosphere theories, but which one specificaly, I could not begin to guess with how vague the discussion was so far.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

Act of attrocities against civilian population commited on an assumption supported by evidence that the contrary actions would lead to greater loss of life.

There are some differences, but all and all the situations have enough in common for comparison to be valid.

And it's not like you've provided any evidence that it is not a valid comparison. Which would lead me to the conclusion that it you who haven't done any research.

My guess he is using the American definition of freedom. (The one Americans think they have, not the lack thereof they might or might not actually have). Freedom but with still laws to it. "Freedom of religion, speech, press, etc" but with laws and rules still in place

And to just add my 2 cents- I think Law won't actually die and I'm glad for that..though I confess for baias reasons. (See my sig)

[Kirk]

@Sick_Fool:

Alright, I betrayed the promise I made to myself, went to see this week's dose of negativity brought to us by the same people, then I read this:

LOL. Desperate, aren't we? I wouldn't even do this, no matter how much I disliked you and your brigade shoving negativity down our throats every week. This is just hilarious and sad at the same time.

I barely post on this forum, I don't know what you are talking about. And it's not a big deal if there is some negativity around, is it? So please, get off your high horse.

as for Cyan's post, he acted like a prick as usual and forgot some of his older posts.

[Darth]

Heh, I will shove whatever I want down everybody's throats. If there is even one person I've convince to think more criticaly, or indeed, think about the motives in the series at all, it's my win.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Vectorkov:

Deontologist? Could you cool it on the academic vernacular Captain Pedantic? You're making me look words up…

It's because I'm lazy

More seriously though, learning new terms is good for you.

@Vectorkov:

I think he absolutely knew the consequences of his actions and believed that they would ultimately lead to a better world.

On that thought, is there any pirate group in One Piece that isn't morally questionable?

Most are. The only are we can't really say that about are those that are left nearly completly unexplored.

I just don't like it. The age of dreams and all… I get it, but I still don't like it. And it doesn't fit that much with Whitebeard, who was always in the first place about family and he ends his life with an act that will almost certainly make their situation worse.

Meh, just a personal opinion of mine.

@Vectorkov:

This isn't an uncommon viewpoint, at least around here. I remember being the only person in my high-school history class to argue against it being necessary. :sideways:

It's because it's easy to argue for it from utilitarian stand point. "If we haven't done it, not only more Americans would die, more Japanese would die as well.".

Which was and is technicaly true, but does not necesserily change the moral judgement of an act.

[Kirk]

@Darth:

Heh, I will shove whatever I want down everybody's throats. If there is even one person I've convince to think more criticaly, or indeed, think about the motives in the series at all, it's my win.

Honestly, if it wasn't for your posts, the chapter threads would be quite boring. And who the hell want to read people talking about how awesome the chapter was? If all you want is reading positive posts, make your own circle jerk thread.

[Darth]

@Bartholemew:

I guess so., yes. :happy:
Looking from what you wrote, we both started to stop liking the arc around the same time. For you, it was around chapter 735, right? For me, it's 731 which was a huge step in the wrong direction. Instead of us/the Strawhats having to figure out the actual toy mystery we got a huge exposition bomb. Like "long-build up empire my ass - just knock out that girl". Didn't really like that development.
But I didn't give up hope for the climax.

Ah, actually it was around… 740. Where Usopp run. Leading to a character development he already had. Again.

And then Oda added Sabo into the mix, and I really hated that smug bastard.

Then Fujitora, my favorite character introduced since timeskip, stopped being cool and making sense, and went into nonsensical territory.

And then Doflamingo, family hyped for so long as inteligent and dangerous enemy... basicaly goes "Yeah, let's kill them all in climactic battle with no strategy what so ever. But it's okay, we still got mcguffins!", and it turns out that all his side really got going for them was two broken devil fruits.

And then... The rest of the arc turned out to be okay at best, with motives that really pissed me off, and with some great moments between that.

There are flaws in every arc, I freely admit that, but the stuff we get besides the flaws just doesn't quite make it up for it. It isn't bad either; then I could just give up on the series altogether. It's simply mediocre. The worst crime.

@Bartholemew:

Well, if there is any kind of treaty, it has to have been made prior to now, of course. He might have treaties with other Yonkous aside from Kaido. Of course, for that he has to be a skilled negotiator like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_von_Bismarck#Foreign_policies. For example, with BB I could imagine it somehow like this:

• BB and Doffy first met at the dinner at Mariejois and found themselves somewhat symphathetic
• during the 2 years of the time skip they started some kind of business relationship
• that business was actually the reason Burgess is on Dressrosa now and he competed for the fruit as oppurtunist and mostly for the fun
• during the later events Doffy somewhen contacted Burgess and made up a deal with him and BB

Especially considering Burgess being that absent, I can imagine him doing some preparations for whatever the actual deal might be.

It could be possible… That's all I will say on the matter.

@Bartholemew:

Well, assuming there is some kind of another treaty, the engagement completely depends on what actions the involved Yonkou crew will take.

Generally spoken, I think the deal is something like in exchange for xxxx, you help me cleaning up the whole mess and also take the blame for whatever I cannot cover alone.

I really hope for the climax to present me a situation where Doffy has an actual chance of leaving the battle as a winner.

I don't really see Oda introducing bunch of Yonko crewmen into the arc this late.

And Burgess alone cannot turn the tide.

… Dunno. I really hope Doffy will have some real chances, but at the moment it seems Oda will try to convince us that the birdcage is a real threat and that will be it.