This was a new low.
Bleach Discussion 0: Hello Darkness my old friend
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This was a new low.
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throw grenades
pause and explain that the second volley will kill you
coming from former assassination squad leaderhaha wow.
Yoruichi has taken lessons from Shinji on "how to ruin the element of surprise"
Also, I would forgive everything if Ichigo punches Uryu so hard he breaks his glasses, declaring "now don't YOU start with this crap!"
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Pernida…
Don't you mean Parnkgjas? :ninja:
Anyway, that's assuming Parnkgjas is the only one among 4 of them to come. It's not like other 3 have anything else to do.
Btw, I feel like every chapter has Bach saying he has done or seen this or that with "...these eyes of mine".
Pernida is an easier name to remember. This is a perfect time to show the Humans have surpassed Yoruichi. Yoruichi was taken down just to hype Pernida.
The other 3 and Haschwald are saved for Byakuya the nigga killer(Barro), Zaraki(Gerald) and the rest of the Captains.(Askin and Haschwald).
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After thinking over this chapter, as well as a little bit of some of the ones before, a lot of plot holes came to me. I started typing up some things and eventually a wall of text came that I feel really shows how bad Bleach has become, and this arc. Wall of text incoming. Sorry if it's a little disjointed, but I'm going to be like Kubo and just throw out the argument without putting that much effort in (though I still put out leagues more effort than Kubo did).
! Today’s Bleach chapter just showed how bad Kubo is at writing, and reveals a myriad of plot holes, or at least inconsistencies.
! So first off, Bach claims that he has no intention of forcing Ichigo to do anything, but that everything he does is based off his will. That’s basically the same thing, but even ignoring that there is a huge problem. Bach wanted to take Ichigo back at one point to “re-educate” him. When you want to re-educate someone, that’s brainwashing, and you Brainwash people to do what Juhabach? That’s right, to make people do your bidding. So that was an outright lie right there.
! Next you claim that Ichigo has no reason to fight you, that his rage should not be pointed at you. Aizen did this exact same thing, and at least he had a slightly better argument. Problem is that an insane argument compared to a terrible argument doesn’t change anything. Let’s talk about the first thing that you rubbed into his face, being his fault that his Mother died. What did we learn about that earlier this arc? That she died because YOU took her powers away, so she could not defend herself, and became dinner for the hollow. That right there is more than enough for Ichigo to be angry with you.
! Assuming that wasn’t even part of it, you destroyed Soul Society, which he is friends with a number of Shinigami there. Your army brutally wounded Renji and Rukia, his closest Soul Reaper friends. Byakuya was almost killed, which not only is Ichigo somewhat friends with him, but is Rukia’s brother, so even if he didn’t have a connection with Byakuya, he would feel Rukia’s pain. You also caused his Heuco Mundo friends to be attacked as well, and stopped him from helping Soul Society early on via Kirge. Maybe some of those could be argued against, but let’s spell out the biggest thing. You killing the Soul King will cause all reality to be destroyed, so everyone has reason to stop you. You succeed, Ichigo and all he knows and loves is gone. That’s enough reason itself.
! Speaking of killing Soul King, why is it that you need Ichigo in the first place? Why keep him alive and not just kill him, and the other powers that could threaten you? Ichigo has been made out not as just this prodigy, but as this person that can be the only one to stop you, and you need him for your ultimate goal. I assume it’s to kill the Soul King, and probably make yourself the new king. If that is the case (which logic dictates nothing else could be the case), Ichigo should not factor into that. Ishida himself was able to destroy the Soul King, and if you are on par with Ichigo, you are strong enough to kill the Soul King.
! We saw you stab the Soul King, and all you did was “will” Ichigo to do the finishing blow for reasons. If later you claim you yourself couldn’t do it, then that will be BS. From everything we know, you are stupid to not do certain things to make yourself win so easily. From the first attack, most of the strong Shinigami should’ve been killed, and Ichigo should’ve been disposed of. You could easily had the rest killed when you went back. Being the son of the Soul King, you could break the barrier yourself, since if the bones of the Soul King can break it, logically you could. The Royal Realm is beaten easily, you kill Soul King, and being the son, you take his place. You have your followers to go slaughter everyone who doesn’t follow you. Ichigo is not needed in the equation.
! Your powers are also inconsistent, as you claim to be able to see and know all, but question Ichigo constantly, got trolled by Aizen and asked him to join knowing the answer, and most of all, allow Ishida to join when you know he is there to kill you for his mother (you even pointed it out earlier before giving him his new powers). Also not seeing the hand come to take the Soul Kings place and continue to question why it would want to protect all existence.
! Also, with you being the Soul Kings son, wouldn’t that make Quincies Shinigami basically, instead you just decided to rebel and kill the souls instead of cleansing them? What are the Quincy in the end, since they take power from the son of the Soul King, and use various powers bestowed upon them for battle. Quincies were supposed to be humans that learned how to protect themselves against hollows, but unfortunately killed souls, and because of various reasons got wiped out from a war. Instead, all that has been taken out, and now it’s really just Quincy=Shinigami except that they are in human bodies. So really, Ichigo isn’t a Shinigami, because he fits the new definition.
! Bottom line, nothing makes sense anymore, since you just throw out whatever you feel is the best thing to make a chapter “cool”. There is no story, no plot, no motivations, no characters, just words you throw out to make things appear to be something, and throw in poems to act as if there is depth. -
Well that chapter made me think that Kubo went insane.
Like he lost it.. or he burned out THAT MUCH just after finishing SS.
HM had its moments, some outstanding designs and powers, like I love art at few points of that part of Bleach.With Quincy war it started pretty strong- it had great feel to it compared to arc about those people… erm.. Tsukishima and Ginjou ?
So Quincy war had its moments as well and now those moments like Bazz B using his heat attacks, Cang Du short but very memorable role, Rukias bankai(that I find amazing, simplistic idea, great art behind it) or Nimayas slick blade was along with quite a number of others those were some of designs that I REALLY LIKED.But now? Its like cooking soup on same meat for fifth time as I imagine- barely any flavor left and what there is, tastes horrible, somehow as worst parts of taste, same taste as 4 times before...
Like this chapter really made me feel ewwww inside with Bach words..
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Well that chapter made me think that Kubo went insane.
Like he lost it.. or he burned out THAT MUCH just after finishing SS.
HM had its moments, some outstanding designs and powers, like I love art at few points of that part of Bleach.With Quincy war it started pretty strong- it had great feel to it compared to arc about those people… erm.. Tsukishima and Ginjou ?
So Quincy war had its moments as well and now those moments like Bazz B using his heat attacks, Cang Du short but very memorable role, Rukias bankai(that I find amazing, simplistic idea, great art behind it) or Nimayas slick blade was along with quite a number of others those were some of designs that I REALLY LIKED.But now? Its like cooking soup on same meat for fifth time as I imagine- barely any flavor left and what there is, tastes horrible, somehow as worst parts of taste, same taste as 4 times before...
Like this chapter really made me feel ewwww inside with Bach words..
When were you under the impression he was ever sane?
Now that I think of it, that would make sense. Have all this crap go on where we could question if this series was ever good or made sense with how off the rails it went. If Kubo actually came out and said that, while still being a terrible series in every way, I would give the man props. Fat chance of that happening.
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It's just…the same thing all over again. Again.
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It's an endless loop. Maybe we're all still in Aizen's illusion.
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Ugh, I was afraid of this moment. Time for one of the most uncharismatic and boring manga-characters ever to have his moment again. Ugh, just ugh.
It sucks. But what can you do? He's the main character.
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Between Aizen and Yhwach, the big question is posed: which keikaku went according to which keikaku?
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Nothing happened this week!
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Why change the title, you make it look like OPM will be animated by Pierrot…
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Are you saying you're not excited for OnePunch-Man?
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@The:
After thinking over this chapter, as well as a little bit of some of the ones before, a lot of plot holes came to me. I started typing up some things and eventually a wall of text came that I feel really shows how bad Bleach has become, and this arc. Wall of text incoming. Sorry if it's a little disjointed, but I'm going to be like Kubo and just throw out the argument without putting that much effort in (though I still put out leagues more effort than Kubo did).
! Today’s Bleach chapter just showed how bad Kubo is at writing, and reveals a myriad of plot holes, or at least inconsistencies.
! So first off, Bach claims that he has no intention of forcing Ichigo to do anything, but that everything he does is based off his will. That’s basically the same thing, but even ignoring that there is a huge problem. Bach wanted to take Ichigo back at one point to “re-educate” him. When you want to re-educate someone, that’s brainwashing, and you Brainwash people to do what Juhabach? That’s right, to make people do your bidding. So that was an outright lie right there.
! Next you claim that Ichigo has no reason to fight you, that his rage should not be pointed at you. Aizen did this exact same thing, and at least he had a slightly better argument. Problem is that an insane argument compared to a terrible argument doesn’t change anything. Let’s talk about the first thing that you rubbed into his face, being his fault that his Mother died. What did we learn about that earlier this arc? That she died because YOU took her powers away, so she could not defend herself, and became dinner for the hollow. That right there is more than enough for Ichigo to be angry with you.
! Assuming that wasn’t even part of it, you destroyed Soul Society, which he is friends with a number of Shinigami there. Your army brutally wounded Renji and Rukia, his closest Soul Reaper friends. Byakuya was almost killed, which not only is Ichigo somewhat friends with him, but is Rukia’s brother, so even if he didn’t have a connection with Byakuya, he would feel Rukia’s pain. You also caused his Heuco Mundo friends to be attacked as well, and stopped him from helping Soul Society early on via Kirge. Maybe some of those could be argued against, but let’s spell out the biggest thing. You killing the Soul King will cause all reality to be destroyed, so everyone has reason to stop you. You succeed, Ichigo and all he knows and loves is gone. That’s enough reason itself.
! Speaking of killing Soul King, why is it that you need Ichigo in the first place? Why keep him alive and not just kill him, and the other powers that could threaten you? Ichigo has been made out not as just this prodigy, but as this person that can be the only one to stop you, and you need him for your ultimate goal. I assume it’s to kill the Soul King, and probably make yourself the new king. If that is the case (which logic dictates nothing else could be the case), Ichigo should not factor into that. Ishida himself was able to destroy the Soul King, and if you are on par with Ichigo, you are strong enough to kill the Soul King.
! We saw you stab the Soul King, and all you did was “will” Ichigo to do the finishing blow for reasons. If later you claim you yourself couldn’t do it, then that will be BS. From everything we know, you are stupid to not do certain things to make yourself win so easily. From the first attack, most of the strong Shinigami should’ve been killed, and Ichigo should’ve been disposed of. You could easily had the rest killed when you went back. Being the son of the Soul King, you could break the barrier yourself, since if the bones of the Soul King can break it, logically you could. The Royal Realm is beaten easily, you kill Soul King, and being the son, you take his place. You have your followers to go slaughter everyone who doesn’t follow you. Ichigo is not needed in the equation.
! Your powers are also inconsistent, as you claim to be able to see and know all, but question Ichigo constantly, got trolled by Aizen and asked him to join knowing the answer, and most of all, allow Ishida to join when you know he is there to kill you for his mother (you even pointed it out earlier before giving him his new powers). Also not seeing the hand come to take the Soul Kings place and continue to question why it would want to protect all existence.
! Also, with you being the Soul Kings son, wouldn’t that make Quincies Shinigami basically, instead you just decided to rebel and kill the souls instead of cleansing them? What are the Quincy in the end, since they take power from the son of the Soul King, and use various powers bestowed upon them for battle. Quincies were supposed to be humans that learned how to protect themselves against hollows, but unfortunately killed souls, and because of various reasons got wiped out from a war. Instead, all that has been taken out, and now it’s really just Quincy=Shinigami except that they are in human bodies. So really, Ichigo isn’t a Shinigami, because he fits the new definition.
! Bottom line, nothing makes sense anymore, since you just throw out whatever you feel is the best thing to make a chapter “cool”. There is no story, no plot, no motivations, no characters, just words you throw out to make things appear to be something, and throw in poems to act as if there is depth.i think some of the stuff you pointed out are maybe translation errors and some of the other stuff are questions that most likely will be answered lately , motives etc etc ,,, until the series is over i cant say i agree with you
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Yhwach saying he will not force Ichigo into anything anda that their will is the same actually makes sense.
He is saying that Ichigo wants the same as he does because of the quincy blood flowing through him (the quincy in him can't forgive whatever was done to his clan). He will not force Ichigo to obey him because he knows Ichigo will do it anyway on his own, his "quincy side" will compel him to do so.But yeah, the reeducation scene goes against that and makes no sense now.
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@Franky Tank, good points on Bach's re-education scene.
@.access:
Between Aizen and Yhwach, the big question is posed: which keikaku went according to which keikaku?
That's easy, it's….......uhh.....
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The scene was literally a reenactment of the Aizen scene, almost identical. That's not lazy, it's 25 levels below lazy. It's just sad to see an author's creativity drop to these levels. It's not even drawing parallels, it's downright rehashing things for no symbollic or ulterior motive, just Kubo not knowing how to write villains that go beyond the "I planned for what you ate for breakfast so that you'd become stronger!".
The action scenes are excruciatingly difficult to follow, too. Kubo's fucking obsession with faux cool close ups messes things up so much, and his sense of flow and spatial disposition is obscenely low.
Compared to this, SS is absurdly good.
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@Purple:
Are you saying you're not excited for OnePunch-Man?
We already have amazing manga.
Though I hope that anime version could do what anime format did for me with JoJo: Battle Tendency(I enjoyed more that part animated than on manga pages).
Oh and that poster that Murata once shown - the one with Saitama on building and "that ship" - I hope that it will be out for sale. It was fenomenazing thing.
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I am just afraid I will miss Reborn's ending for the final chapter of this manga… and NO WAY!!!
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After "these eyes of mine" we just need the talking sleeve
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Do you mean the one…
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! …Aizen has had since before Ichigo was born? -
Compared to this, SS is absurdly good.
Early bleach, up until the end of SS, was one of the first anime I saw online.
At the time, I thought it was really cool and interesting with the bloody fights and cool powers.
If only I knew how awful the series would turn. -
I thought that the chapter was great. No one saw Yhwach's explanation of "Zangetsu" to be the least bit cruel? Yhwach is obviously provoking Ichigo, saying essentially that his free will was an illusion and that the ultimate goal was for Ichigo to gain enough power to do his bidding. It worked.
But I get the feeling that Yhwach wants Ichigo to do the same thing and surpass his own limits again. This is apparent through Yhwach's provocation of Ichigo, stating that Ichigo still hasn't developed the necessary killer instinct and is weak because of it–especially since Yhwach killed his mother. Yhwach wants Ichigo to be strong enough to defeat him, because it's obvious that there's another threat ominously lurking in the darkness. It's not Aizen nor Uryu, but the existence of a god like Mimihagi. There's much about the lore that we don't know yet.
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Do you mean the one…
! http://i.imgur.com/V3hR1rm.jpg
! …Aizen has had since before Ichigo was born?…That picture is officially Kubo's best piece of artwork ever.
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Do you mean the one…
! http://i.imgur.com/V3hR1rm.jpg
! …Aizen has had since before Ichigo was born?i cant stop laughing at that picture , aizens look with that puppet is too much
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The scene was literally a reenactment of the Aizen scene, almost identical. That's not lazy, it's 25 levels below lazy. It's just sad to see an author's creativity drop to these levels. It's not even drawing parallels, it's downright rehashing things for no symbollic or ulterior motive, just Kubo not knowing how to write villains that go beyond the "I planned for what you ate for breakfast so that you'd become stronger!".The action scenes are excruciatingly difficult to follow, too. Kubo's fucking obsession with faux cool close ups messes things up so much, and his sense of flow and spatial disposition is obscenely low.Compared to this, SS is absurdly good.
I'm sorry, but I have to greatly disagree with the action being hard to follow. I agree, there are times when it's hard to discern what's happening, but to say "excruciatingly difficult" is a tad overblown. 9 of every 10 action scenes in Naruto's final 100, heck even 200 chapters was "excruciatingly difficult" to follow, the action this chapter, hardly.
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Hold on, jigga what?
I thought it was Aizen that planned Ichigo's entire life.
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Hold on, jigga what?
I thought it was Aizen that planned Ichigo's entire life.
Who did you think planned that Aizen would plan Ichigo's entire life?
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@Purple:
Who did you think planned that Aizen would plan Ichigo's entire life?
I think we all know who the true puppet master is. Tsukishima. Why else would he and his comrades be in Soul Society instead of going to Hell. Add the fact that all this stuff wouldn't fly in a book, and it all points to him.
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I think the order of control goes something like this.
Ichigo < Tsukushima < Kubo < Yhwach < Aizen < Sleeve < ….Aizen
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i think some of the stuff you pointed out are maybe translation errors and some of the other stuff are questions that most likely will be answered lately , motives etc etc ,,, until the series is over i cant say i agree with you
I admit some of it is speculation, and might be translation issues. The not forcing him part makes no sense, and in multiple chapters now, he has claimed Ichigo has no reason to fight him, when he has plenty. The Quincy stuff is more speculation and was more me going on a rant, but I still stand by Ichigo not being necessary, because I doubt there will be a good reason for needing him at this point.
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I can't believe I'm re-reading this shit with somewhat better scanlation only to find that Yhwach says the same bullshit about Ichigo being his unwitting pawn. Kubo always knows how to outbleach his bleachest chapter.
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In bleachest day, in bleachest night, no actually smart storytelling shall escape his sight, let those who think bleach could be alright, beware kewbs power–-The black inks might!
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When I look at Bleach now I feel fortunate that almost all my favorite characters died back in the Arrancar arc.
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Let's hope it ends this year.
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I am the only one who thinks Hollowfication was the best thing that happened to Ichigo?
Because you see, it makes you to not see his damn face. -
I am the only one who thinks Hollowfication was the best thing that happened to Ichigo?
Because you see, it makes you to not see his damn face.It certainly was way more interesting.
Shame it never went anywhere.
Still Kubo's art has it's momements. I think he honestly could benefit from somebody educating him on storytelling.
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It certainly was way more interesting.
Shame it never went anywhere.
Still Kubo's art has it's momements. I think he honestly could benefit from somebody educating him on storytelling.
I think him and Mashima would create masterpieces if they partnered up with writers, instead of doing it all on their own.
And yeah, I miss Shirosaki. That aspect was a lot more interesting than this Quincy thing. Hollows in general are probably one of the most interesting things in this manga for me. Shame they got reduced to fodder and gag characters mid Winter War.
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I think him and Mashima would create masterpieces if they partnered up with writers, instead of doing it all on their own.
How on Earth would that work out?
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Tite Kubo, the one and only which recycles storytellings from God… Jesus did it too.
I laugh with it, can't hate it xP
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I think him and Mashima would create masterpieces if they partnered up with writers, instead of doing it all on their own.
I don't think we would even need to go as far.
In all honesty, Kubo's work feels as the first work of a talented amatour, who became profesionalist, but never had anyone correct him or teach him the technique.
If anything, I think Kubo would benefit greatly from having a good editor. One that would help him with both ideas and execution.
Mashima, on the other hand… you know, he is a great craftsman. There is nothing glaringly bad with his work, it's just kinda... fitting into general idea of Shonen, and thus not really great.
But I always felt it's not the reason to begrudge somebody. And if nothing else, at least his work ethics are impecable.
And yeah, I miss Shirosaki. That aspect was a lot more interesting than this Quincy thing. Hollows in general are probably one of the most interesting things in this manga for me. Shame they got reduced to fodder and gag characters mid Winter War.
Quincies would have been a lot more interesting if they explored the ideas that were introduced with them, namely archery theme to Shinigami's swords, and the war between them.
Hell, if you want to do something different with them, to make them different from traditional Quincy, have them use guns.
Yuha Bach, I think, is the one who ruined everything. His entire concept is shaky at best.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
@Shobu:
I laugh with it, can't hate it xP
True. If I tried seriously critisize Bleach and Kubo, I would just feel bad. It's like looking at a doodle made by a six year old, and going "This didn't use the proper artistic techniques, you little brat! No stars for you, mister. Now, back into your room and think about what you've done.".
Just mean spirited, you know?
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How on Earth would that work out?
You might at least give reasons why you think it wouldn't work out. It's not like a manga artist working together with a writer is something never seen before.
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After reading Executive Meddling trope in which Bleach is on the list, it makes me wonder if the meddling is still going on until this point. I'm not sure if Kubo's Editor even cares whatever is happening in the manga he's responsible for. We'll never know whether the atrocities we've been reading every week is the result of his Editor's influence or Kubo's own idea.
It's not like a manga artist working together with a writer is something never seen before.
I think it's all about creator's pride. Every mangaka is expected to have both story writing and drawing to some degree in order to create manga. If the mangaka is idealistic, they will do both on their own, so they can be fully proud of their creations regardless of the overall quality.
Working with a writer is a realistic take but also the least preferred (split the wage, man). I mean, not every mangaka has guts to admit that they suck at story writing.
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I don't think we would even need to go as far.
In all honesty, Kubo's work feels as the first work of a talented amatour, who became profesionalist, but never had anyone correct him or teach him the technique.
If anything, I think Kubo would benefit greatly from having a good editor. One that would help him with both ideas and execution.
Mashima, on the other hand… you know, he is a great craftsman. There is nothing glaringly bad with his work, it's just kinda... fitting into general idea of Shonen, and thus not really great.
But I always felt it's not the reason to begrudge somebody. And if nothing else, at least his work ethics are impecable.
Well, he probably learned a lot from mistakes he made in Zombie Powder, his first work that got cancelled, but not enough. He's more a man of style and impressions, and he's good at that, but he's bad at creating depth and following through on things he himself established. Yeah, a good editor can do wonders, but I wonder if it wouldn't be better if someone else worked on the story completely, allowing Kubo to focus more on art and his characters looking cool and delivering lines.
I don't really begrudge Mashima, for example, but sometimes I can't help but wonder what Fairy Tail would be like if a talented storyteller worked on it. Built the world from nothing, gave it depth, gave what main cast was doing some meaning, making villains relevant and not making main characters beat up stronger guys with emotions all the time.
Rave Master was a lot better than FT in some aspects, honestly.Quincies would have been a lot more interesting if they explored the ideas that were introduced with them, namely archery theme to Shinigami's swords, and the war between them.
Hell, if you want to do something different with them, to make them different from traditional Quincy, have them use guns.
Yuha Bach, I think, is the one who ruined everything. His entire concept is shaky at best.
Yeah, it doesn't help Quincies' case that Kubo got lazy after drawing Quillge. Just compare his awesome Vollstandig with any other that appeared after.
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I think him and Mashima would create masterpieces if they partnered up with writers, instead of doing it all on their own.
And yeah, I miss Shirosaki. That aspect was a lot more interesting than this Quincy thing. Hollows in general are probably one of the most interesting things in this manga for me. Shame they got reduced to fodder and gag characters mid Winter War.
I don't think they stoop that low , they wouldn't be successful otherwise ,, i think your not giving kubo enough credit lol , personally i wouldn't compare him to mashima though , mashima is too too cliche and his fanservice is overboard
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You might at least give reasons why you think it wouldn't work out. It's not like a manga artist working together with a writer is something never seen before.
Whoops, I misread that, thought you meant that if the two mangaka collaborated, they would make a good manga.
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Whoops, I misread that, thought you meant that if the two mangaka collaborated, they would make a good manga.
That… would not end well.
They would probably create a monstrous embodiment of their worst flaws as authors...
Though at least it would have backgrounds, instead of blank spaces... :ninja:
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I don't think they stoop that low , they wouldn't be successful otherwise ,, i think your not giving kubo enough credit lol , personally i wouldn't compare him to mashima though , mashima is too too cliche and his fanservice is overboard
Stooping low? I don't know man, Bleach isn't doing too good lately, and we all know why that is. How do you know Kubo wouldn't even be more successful if he wasn't doing most of the work on his own?
It's not like I'm not giving him enough credit, it's that I think his work might be something really special if he had proper help in the areas he isn't so good at.
And I don't see how he's that better than Mashima, honestly. Both leave much to be desired. The rest is up to personal taste.
Whoops, I misread that, thought you meant that if the two mangaka collaborated, they would make a good manga.
Oh, I see. God no. Can't even imagine…
But then again, now that you say that, I almost want it.
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I would catch up to Fairy Tail, but I'm much too busy, uh, reading…everything else.
I'm trying to read Assassination Classroom. Better series than MHA, but progress has been slow, I'll catch up eventually, but look at the AC thread at the top of the topic list, it's taunting me!