@Panda:
I took the liberty of fixing your quote for you.
I swear Penis Hitler will be my random select-ready Mii out of spite. Also I swear that I will actually make a Penis Hitler Mii out of spite.
Super Smash Bros
-
-
Sadly, I feel like most of the community will stay with Melee, because while many do respect the fact other Smash games have their place most others will probably turn their back as soon as wavedashing/L-cancelling or w.e. isn't confirmed.
Eh, as long as there's people playing Smash Wii U/3DS I'll be good. Wouldn't mind going to tournaments again, which I stopped doing when people abandoned Brawl and went back to Melee.
It honestly isn't about L-canceling or wavedashing. Basically, the reason why the competitive community holds melee in high regard is not because of balance (oh God no, why else is there a handful of characters and Yoshi making it higher then?) or wavedashing or L-canceling (which frankly I think you can play the game without and it would be fine; L-cancelling just helps out with the landing lag for air attacks) but more the excellent amount of control that the game gives you over your character. For more novice and on the side people, the way they'd describe that would be "the game is much faster" or "There are more tech options" and while both of those statements are true, they aren't what give what I believe is the fundamental reason why melee is heralded as the more definitive smash for the competitive community.
Basically, at least for me, it's about the amount of fluid control you have over your character. Smash as a series has some very unique fundamental elements to it. First, Directional Influence so that no combo is the same. Second is more of an addendum to that; you can't just mash certain buttons to lock someone into a combo like in other fighting games which is why it falls precipitously into an area between competitive and party games. The mechanics are essentially built so that you can play it both as a party game with crazy shenanigans being thrown about or where you have less lag after a move connects to follow up with another assault or evade if you want to play mindgames. Likewise there is a lot of maneuverability to get out of situations like that if you read the situation correctly, and the more fine tuned and practiced you are at the game, the more you can take advantage of certain characters' peculiarities and properties.
This is why Project M is largely based but not solely based on melee's mechanics. It borrows a lot, but pretty much hauling everything over 1:1 would lead to quick characters and Jigglypuff and maybe a handful of other characters to dominate, and instead it opts for the same amount of control and giving heavier characters better properties to compensate for the slower game. As a result, the game is "slower" because many more slower characters are viable.
I feel like Sm4sh will be interesting because, honestly, I don't see it getting the same level of love as melee because, as it stands, certain mechanics hinder that same level of control over the characters. It may, however, end up being a good entryway into the smash community.
Speaking more broadly about the competitive community as a whole, one of the best and most knowledgeable commentators, Prog, is unfortunately going to have to retire from the scene due to health reasons, but you can see his views on how the community operates and what would be best (such as self-improvement in attitude and things unlike certain previous users here), among other responses: http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2a26ew/prog_here_smash_storyteller_commentator_amongst/
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
@krule274:
I'm decently hyped for this game, but I just don't think it's going to be that great. My ranking for SSB's games is Melee, Brawl, then the original. I really don't even feel that this one will be better than Brawl. I'm not a huge fan of most of the new characters, but the biggest turn off for me is that it doesn't look like it'll play like a Smash game. What I mean is that after watching footage, the way things roll and the disgusting lack of any type of combo is just such a turn off to me. I'm sure it'll still be fun to play, and I'm quite pumped for it(not that I even have a Wii U yet), but I just don't see it being that great.
Having played the game in demo, I do think the game has potential to fix a lot of errors in brawl, and I think as long as you keep an open mind to a lot of the characters, you'll be very surprised with how refreshing the new characters play. As of right now, as we get used to the game, my personal view of things is that it takes time for players to learn how to combo correctly. I remember watching Ken's how to play Marth video and him remarking that everyone used to dash and then c-stick fsmash way back in the early days before he came up with dash dancing, so we may need a period of innovation before the game takes off, if it does.
However, I know with the direction Nintendo wants to aim with it that Smash 4 will, as with Brawl, be geared towards the casual crowd. As I've addressed previously, it was, at least picking it up initially, difficult to land kills at high percents for some characters. Dash dancing being incredibly limited at the moment limits some options, and it feels a bit clumsy, for lack of a better term. But as I also said, it definitely felt like a game they haven't had the chance to fine tune it yet either, so we'll see how things may change. It's definitely fun, though, no tripping and with hitstun it takes on a different taste than brawl did with its "get out of hitstun by airdodging" stuff.
Personally, though, I know a lot of people here have no interest in the competitive scene, and well, smash is great because it welcomes both sides of the coin, so my personal hope is that the investment into the game makes it so that people really enjoy getting more hyped up for the series in general and open up the community more, whether it be to check out melee or Project M. But as Prog said in his AMA, that requires an investment by the community to continue with its self-improvement state of mind, because at least the way I view it, the only reason why Nintendo put its name and sponsored EVO was because the melee scene cleaned itself up considerably in the last number of years.
-
@Purple:
Having played the game in demo, I do think the game has potential to fix a lot of errors in brawl, and I think as long as you keep an open mind to a lot of the characters, you'll be very surprised with how refreshing the new characters play. As of right now, as we get used to the game, my personal view of things is that it takes time for players to learn how to combo correctly. I remember watching Ken's how to play Marth video and him remarking that everyone used to dash and then c-stick fsmash way back in the early days before he came up with dash dancing, so we may need a period of innovation before the game takes off, if it does.
However, I know with the direction Nintendo wants to aim with it that Smash 4 will, as with Brawl, be geared towards the casual crowd. As I've addressed previously, it was, at least picking it up initially, difficult to land kills at high percents for some characters. Dash dancing being incredibly limited at the moment limits some options, and it feels a bit clumsy, for lack of a better term. But as I also said, it definitely felt like a game they haven't had the chance to fine tune it yet either, so we'll see how things may change. It's definitely fun, though, no tripping and with hitstun it takes on a different taste than brawl did with its "get out of hitstun by airdodging" stuff.
Personally, though, I know a lot of people here have no interest in the competitive scene, and well, smash is great because it welcomes both sides of the coin, so my personal hope is that the investment into the game makes it so that people really enjoy getting more hyped up for the series in general and open up the community more, whether it be to check out melee or Project M. But as Prog said in his AMA, that requires an investment by the community to continue with its self-improvement state of mind, because at least the way I view it, the only reason why Nintendo put its name and sponsored EVO was because the melee scene cleaned itself up considerably in the last number of years.
I just typed out a four paragraph response, and the page went backwards for no good reason. I wish I had the energy to type it out again. I'm sorry, I was really looking forward to an engaging Smash conversation. :sad:
-
I'll be playing smash 4 competitively no matter what pretty much, I started an interest once brawl came out. It was a lot of fun going to tournaments and seeing how good people were up close and getting to play against them. Now that wi-fi's down and I can't practice much, on top of a lack of general interest in brawl on top of a new game coming out, can't see myself going back to it. Was kinda getting sick of brawls nonsense anyway. As long as this game has at least some fair balance and no tripping I won't be complaining. Any other new changes I'll just get used to them.
NNID: Panekai
-
I'll be playing smash 4 competitively no matter what pretty much, I started an interest once brawl came out. It was a lot of fun going to tournaments and seeing how good people were up close and getting to play against them. Now that wi-fi's down and I can't practice much, on top of a lack of general interest in brawl on top of a new game coming out, can't see myself going back to it. Was kinda getting of brawls nonsense anyway. As long as this game has at least some fair balance and no tripping I won't be complaining. Any other new changes I'll just get used to them.
There are actually ways to circumvent the wi-fi outage, especially because Brawl was basically just P2P with the nintendo servers just handling matchmaking. If there is enough interest in perhaps a Project M fest or brawl or both, I'd be more than happy to show how to set that up, but at this point I think most people here will be waiting for Smash4.
-
Purple Hermit: Keep in mind I'm not saying Wavedashing/L-cancelling is all there is to Melee. I'm just saying, accurately based on some comments I've seen from people, that there will definitely be the group of people that will turn their back on Smash Wii U because of those components missing.
Also, regardless of any Melee plays more fluidly argument, I'm still in the state of mind that all games have their merits, it's just a matter of not playing Brawl and try to play Melee. I had no problem with Brawl's mechanics aside from tripping, and it was a huge disappointment when great brawl matches had to end because people began abandoning it when everyone agreed melee was the cool one and playing brawl was stupid.
-
Purple Hermit: Keep in mind I'm not saying Wavedashing/L-cancelling is all there is to Melee. I'm just saying, accurately based on some comments I've seen from people, that there will definitely be the group of people that will turn their back on Smash Wii U because of those components missing.
Honestly I think we're more likely to see people drop out due to lack of dash dancing than anything. I think the only people who honestly expected wavedashing to return were the hardcore extreme assortment who are better off dropping from the scene in general than anything.
Also, regardless of any Melee plays more fluidly argument, I'm still in the state of mind that all games have their merits, it's just a matter of not playing Brawl and try to play Melee. I had no problem with Brawl's mechanics aside from tripping, and it was a huge disappointment when great brawl matches had to end because people began abandoning it when everyone agreed melee was the cool one and playing brawl was stupid.
The problem lies a bit deeper than that; There are a lot of questionable mechanics choices chosen besides tripping that led to a very stagnant metagame. I remember Apex 2014 this year for Brawl and this was the grand finals that resulted:
Essentially, a big problem is just the handling of the game. A lot of people will quickly point to the "floatiness" and "slowness", but the big problem is not playing it like melee but that the options characters get opt for a more "footsies" game where it's just dancing around throwing out aerials until someone trips up. I think Olimar has spammable pikmin which is why he's top other than meta knight and diddy has his banana peels to really ruin that otherwise, and it just comes down to that the mechanics just encourage a more defensive style of gameplay than the aggressive play you get in melee.
Basically a "tier list" depends only on the environment of the gameplay, so in a way you could technically say it doesn't matter. I believe Brawl has three different tier lists, one for Japan, one for the US, and one for Europe, because the play style has some variation in it in comparison to melee where there exists only one tier list, and a lot of it depends on what tools a character gets and how the locale plays. Currently, because defensive play is being rewarded and is winning tournaments (with meta knight being incredibly safe because his special moves basically are immune to stale-move negation), the meta game shifts towards that direction, and the quicker gameplay just isn't a viable option. I don't think anyone rational expects melee, but they just want something that rewards a more aggressive and less campy direction.
Likewise, Smash 4 I think a lot of people noted there was a lot of dancing around in the gameplay and people are turned off to it or are cautious because it seems to reward that similarly defensive style, but only time will tell if that will be the prevalent style. Right now they play smash 4 like they play melee because, well, only a few practice matches beforehand, you can't expect much better, but I think people just want more, as I described it, "fluidity" or control in the gameplay than run and gun tactics. Like I said, I don't think the majority opinion is that we want melee again, but Smash 4 is a bit troubling because we don't want to see another grand finals like the above or at the invitational where camping is the norm.
All four have different merits and different strengths, but Brawl picked up a bit then subsequently dropped in terms of popularity not because people wanted it to be melee 2.0 but because the gameplay style it adopted in the competitive scene is incredibly stagnant. You'd be surprised, but even 64 shows up every now and then (and so does Isai), and it's pretty fun to watch because it was the progenitor and also had the most balanced roster (well, easier to accomplish that with only a few characters and not as many moves), but naturally melee is the dominant branch in the scene.
Still fun games though.
-
See, but that's the thing. People say Brawl is stagnant, but it's impossible for a metagame to even develop without people caring for the gameplay. Also, defensiveness in a fighting game has as much merit as combos, and Brawl regarding predictions, mind-games and space control is not something I see as a fault but something that characterizes the gameplay.
I mean, it took what, 13 years for a Yoshi to have competitiveness viability in a competitive Melee scene. For a long time Melee had the same problem of always being the same characters, but the metagame growing means the game stays alive. It seems with Brawl is more of a problem of people who play it flocking to Meta Knight due his obvious broken nature as well as the fact it's the character that everyone knows, just like there's a million Foxes in Melee.
Melee has gotten the benefit of growing for 13 years and developing, Brawl rose for a year or two and was then abandoned, and again, really it's more of the fact that people want a Melee style fight and not a Brawl style fight, and imo both are just as fun even if Brawl involves more defensiveness and spacing. Perhaps Melee does look prettier to watch because of speed! and combos! but they are both just as enjoyable to play.
edit: also, idk what your point is with that video because from what I see so far it's a pretty enjoyable match.
-
@krule274:
Was it this guy?
! http://www.ezimba.com/work/140708C/ezimba17108127550500.png
That's Wife. And I believe he was the one who said he didn't want M2K to be the face of smash 'cause he thought he looked like the typical "nerd." He also said something along the lines of that he used to wrongly make fun of him for no good reason. So yea, I guess he was kind of arrogant, but he gave a lot of insight into the community. And he was a pretty good Peach player.
Yeah that's the jerk.
As to the current discussion, I honestly think throwing a hissy fit because of no dash dancing is worse than complaining about actual control mechanics like canceling and wave dashing, even though the wave dashing was not intended. Like if you're going to shun a game because it's messing up your psychological meta-game, you might want to remember what it means to have fun.
-
See, but that's the thing. People say Brawl is stagnant, but it's impossible for a metagame to even develop without people caring for the gameplay. Also, defensiveness in a fighting game has as much merit as combos, and Brawl regarding predictions, mind-games and space control is not something I see as a fault but something that characterizes the gameplay.
Brawl isn't as abandoned as quickly as you make it out to be, although I will agree that people tended to jump ship quicker as time goes by. But I remember back in the early 10's or so listening into the brawl scene with some heavy debate about everyone's favorite, Meta Knight. Without that time investment, people wouldn't have figured out the knick knacks of how to play Olimar well, and if you look at the trend for the tier list in America, you see quite a few characters jump from place to place. I remember back when brawl came out when I main'd DeDeDe a bit (I still do), and he was a high tier character due to his chain grab. Brawl's meta game is still evolving step by step, and more characters are showing their potential, but essentially the reward system for higher level gameplay just isn't there compared to melee.
Likewise, Brawl emphasizes predictions, mind-games, and space control, but those elements were essentially already integral to melee. It is true that top tier characters are blessed with more options than most others below them, but when you see the top five players duke it out, when skill is maximized, it essentially comes down to proper spacing, mind-games, predictions leading to reads and tech chases, and that essentially is where the tier list comes in after exploring all assets a character may have.
I mean, it took what, 13 years for a Yoshi to have competitiveness viability in a competitive Melee scene. For a long time Melee had the same problem of always being the same characters, but the metagame growing means the game stays alive. It seems with Brawl is more of a problem of people who play it flocking to Meta Knight due his obvious broken nature as well as the fact it's the character that everyone knows, just like there's a million Foxes in Melee.
It's true that Yoshi is having some huge fanfare in the scene, but there are a few problems to long term stability (of which only aMSa is the one paving the way, really) such that I am not completely convinced that Yoshi will be moving significantly up to high tier, with my personal view being maybe midtier around Ganondorf or so:
-Up until now, nobody really knew the matchup against Yoshi the way aMSa played him, which gave him a stark advantage against less experienced professionals
-A lot of the skills that are used really aren't transferable to any other character, so if you specialize in Yoshi, you better love him a lot to get the most out of him. Yoshi's unique features such as the parry, egg tosses, etc. are techniques that make it hard to stick with him
-In the end, Yoshi is still incredibly limited in options compared to other characters due to a lack of a good shield drop and a recovery move, but that's pretty self evidentA lot of it just comes down to rewarding high level play, though. Meta Knight gets a huge following in brawl because a lot of the stuff that is game breaking that he's capable of doesn't require an insane amount of technical play, whereas Fox requires a considerable time investment (which is why I main Marth lol). Pretty much every increase in tier list is because of some peculiarly disruptive style that interferes with that "brokenness" but incurs another level of brokenness. Ice Climbers made a huge jump because of chain grabbing, Diddy had banana peel placement, and Olimar involves heavy use of electric pikmin to stun your opponent, and gameplay like that doesn't push the game forward.
I'm not a fan of Fox 20XX, and with my level of skill I personally wouldn't be affected by removal of the deepest level of techniques, but there needs to be at least some compensation for that to keep a 1v1 intense. Most brawl commentaries essentially try to hype up situations where at most a character just fell off the stage but can still recover. Worst case is that we see clock stalling that Zero is infamous for in terms of winning tournaments, so there just needs to be some level of balance with defensive and offensive play in competitive play if defense and a slower style is opted for.
Melee has gotten the benefit of growing for 13 years and developing, Brawl rose for a year or two and was then abandoned, and again, really it's more of the fact that people want a Melee style fight and not a Brawl style fight, and imo both are just as fun even if Brawl involves more defensiveness and spacing. Perhaps Melee does look prettier to watch because of speed! and combos! but they are both just as enjoyable to play.
Defensive isn't bad per se, and neither is floatiness nor slowness, but it just comes down to execution. You can have defensive play and make it an intimate and intense fight, but I feel like it wasn't about melee being "cool" but more that pro players just felt like they weren't getting enough out of the game other than footsie wars which continue even today. Melee for me though is all about how I play brawl though (although that may explain why I'm not very good lol), with heavy spacing and reads to follow up, but I would say that it reached a good percent of its heights after six years when the game was pretty much dissected, but even before then, the game got pretty far in its first four years or so when Ken was king. If Brawl can eventually reach even a fraction of that height, then great, but as it stands right now, the way to win currently lies in relatively cheap methods that drag out defensive gameplay more into trench warfare.
And lastly, yes, melee is more exciting to watch in the end. For these sorts of events and especially the big events, exciting and crowd pleasers are the ones that draw the hits for the twitch broadcasts, and brawl frankly just doesn't have the same level of pull that melee does, be it its lack of meta game development or following, but I believe that this is more of the effect than the root and cause.
Just so we make it clear though, I am a fan of brawl myself as a game, so I'm not trying to demean any sort of position concerning anyone liking Brawl, but I just want to give a broader overview as to why brawl fell competitively and melee continues to steam forward.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Yeah that's the jerk.
As to the current discussion, I honestly think throwing a hissy fit because of no dash dancing is worse than complaining about actual control mechanics like canceling and wave dashing, even though the wave dashing was not intended. Like if you're going to shun a game because it's messing up your psychological meta-game, you might want to remember what it means to have fun.
I agree that shunning a game because of that is pretty damn stupid, but I don't exactly agree with the lack of being able to turn around some number of frames after the dash is initiated as the solution to the psychological game
-
@Purple:
I agree that shunning a game because of that is pretty damn stupid, but I don't exactly agree with the lack of being able to turn around some number of frames after the dash is initiated as the solution to the psychological game
There shouldn't have to be a "solution" because a game's mechanics shouldn't be dictated by whether or not high level players will leverage them for something as dumb as mind games (not that mind games are dumb, it's just not an exploit or imbalance so programming against it is senseless). That's just bad game design. So if the that's the sole reason for frame delay there, then yes it's a terrible decision. But it's an even playing field in that respect, so I don't think players should throw a fit. It's not retardedly random like tripping. Honestly I really hope that if they keep any of this turn delay, it's for some strategic reason like wanting players to think and plan before committing to a dash. Now if you want to say that in a general sense the lack of freedom and rapid action makes the game worse, that's a valid opinion too.
-
There shouldn't have to be a "solution" because a game's mechanics shouldn't be dictated by whether or not high level players will leverage them for something as dumb as mind games (not that mind games are dumb, it's just not an exploit or imbalance so programming against it is senseless). That's just bad game design. So if the that's the sole reason for frame delay there, then yes it's a terrible decision. But it's an even playing field in that respect, so I don't think players should throw a fit. It's not retardedly random like tripping. Honestly I really hope that if they keep any of this turn delay, it's for some strategic reason like wanting players to think and plan before committing to a dash. Now if you want to say that in a general sense the lack of freedom and rapid action makes the game worse, that's a valid opinion too.
Yeah, my sentiments pretty much. Just throwing it in because of high level play is something absurd, although that is what tripping ended up being >_>
-
Woo! Finally!
Pic of the day. I talked about an attack with a far reach in yesterday's post, but it didn't compare to Palutena's up smash attack! No joke, it reaches really far. It reached so far in this shot that even the rocketbarrels got blown up.
That said, if we're talking just about range, even that can't beat Palutena's power, Heavenly Light. It has quite a damage field. However, this is a no-flinch attack, which means the opponents won't react to the damage!
-
@Noqanky: Really cool pic of the day; Palutena's really shaping up to be a very fun character. Megaman and I will have our hands full when we battle you with her…
-
Probably, so far she's turning out exactly like I hoped … well, except perhaps a bit more overpowered actually.
Here's hoping Reflect is her default down B, then Mega Man can have some fun with that xD
-
The hell? Where's my update about Mii Fighters?
/endrant
-
Yep, definitely using Palutena.
-
Wow, they went really detailed with this Palutena mii
-
-
It's a shame Sonic will only get one type of power-up.
NNID: Panekai
-
@Devil:
!
! Even if his skin colour doesn't change much, he'll be able to get them all anyways.Wow, that's some incredible range on a down smash. That's like half of final destination, unless the ghost sprites go farther than the actual range.
3DS friend code: 1478-4380-6818
NNID: Luxorcist
-
@Devil:
Even if his skin colour doesn't change much, he'll be able to get them all anyways.
Lmaooo
Wow, that's some incredible range on a down smash. That's like half of final destination, unless the ghost sprites go farther than the actual range.
That's just a copy pasta of ghosts. The original image is this one:
-
@Purple:
Lmaooo
That's just a copy pasta of ghosts. The original image is this one: http://www.ssbwiki.com/images/thumb/e/e0/PalutenasTempleFinalDestination.jpg/640px-PalutenasTempleFinalDestination.jpg
I see. I thought as much after searching for it on the official web and not finding it, but since I saw it being posted on many webs and forums ( one of which I trust ), I thought on posting it. Sorry and thanks for the correction, purple one.
-
Yeah I was thinking "That wasn't posted on miiverse… was it?" and also sonic and mega man are blasting off from a point relatively close to Pacman, so such a long range down smash would be kinda nil to demonstrate as is. Also I doubt an official sakurai post would use the term "OP", so a reverse image search found that fairly quickly.
-
More new alts
America!
[hide]
-
This post is deleted!
-
These costumes are looking sexier and sexier.
-
This post is deleted!
-
@Venomous:
More new alts
America!
[hide]
Whoa wasn't a white suit like this in Project M?
!
3DS friend code: 1478-4380-6818
NNID: Luxorcist
-
Awesome costumes/colors.
-
Whoa wasn't a white suit like this in Project M?
! http://projectmgame.com//content/images/news/altpost2/samus.png
Isn't that the light suit from Metroid Prime 2?
…And there's a American drum playing puppet in Osaka?
-
Awesome stuff. Makes me hopeful for a Dr.Mario costume.
-
The more costumes, the better.
-
It figures that the Light Suit would also be an option, considering the Dark Suit is already one of the alts. It looks good, too, but the Dark Suit is still better…
-
Stormtrooper samus may be my color of choice for her. And patriot Mario Isn't shabby himself.
-
Those costumes are soooooooo good.
-
So does this mean Mario gets to be the stand in for President Valentine?
NintendoNetworkID:NJMancini, please leave a message saying you're from AP
-
So does this mean Mario gets to be the stand in for President Valentine?
The cape is actually a giant "Napkin" that also involves "Love Train"
-
I'm unexcited mostly because so far these still are just palettes as opposed to actual alternate costumes.
Also not huge on looking like a stormtrooper or a 'murica mario.
-
Yeah… not a huge fan of parading around the American flag...
-
Well him and blue mac will definitely make an appropriate tag team.
-
Patriot Mario is the best thing.
-
If you ignore the stars on his shirt, Mario looks like he works at some place in the mall that serves you food on a stick :P
-
Palettes look awesome, I hope they still have the Fusion Varia suit. I'd love alternate costumes, but it isn't the end of the world if we don't get them.
-
For the record, Patriot Mario has precedent:
.png)
Now if we could get "Gaddafi's Libya" Luigi, that'd be great.
-
I didn't know Peach had sisters.
-
Perhaps that was daisy, original design.
Your daily heaping helping of haggis.
-
Love the Mario design, it's not the exact costume from that old golf game but it's so visually distinct it counts as real alternate in my book. The light suit is my favorite Metroid suit, too bad this is only the light suit colors. I really wanted the real light suit for Samus but beggars can't be choosers I guess. Of course the real light suit could still come our way!
-
@Capt:
Perhaps that was daisy, original design.
indeed it was
