is Ultra Red mentioned by Aohige before a manga by Kongo Banchou and Nanatsu Taizai's mangaka?
The "Shueisha" Thread
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But you do realize that by judging others based on your opinions is projection correct? You are assuming and judging about Japanese children by saying this.
No, you're not having an opinion.Um….I am pretty sure you can use google. But since it seems you are incapable of looking up a word before you know what it means.
"Projecting: projecting false accusations, information"
Again. In this case-scenario, the children are controlled variables.
So yeah. You are incorrect.Opinions are about your OWN view, not about assuming others' views.
The original question was if you think it would survive if it was barely started today.
I really hope that I don't need to explain this one to you.
1. What you are doing is ASSUMPTION based on your own personal opinion
Yeah. Duh. That is what I asked.
@Aohige_AP:projected on others.
And no
@Aohige_AP:2. What I'm doing is ASSUMPTION based on cold hard figures, projected observation on others.
And no. You are treating all your opinions as cold hard facts.
Starting with acting like you're a victim of flame, when you actually started with thinly veiled labelings. I guess you don't know what passive-aggressive is.
MAN. I never even labeled you…..until King of Projecting....... I don't think that was thinly veiled. And why are you calling me passive-aggressive? I said I was being aggressive!
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And no. You are treating all your opinions as cold hard facts.
Fuck you. No.
You want me to list One Piece polls and sales? How the fuck is that my opinion?Only opinion I've been saying are: "things haven't changed as much as you think" and "short lived series are shitty". And I've been providing the following facts to back WHY I have these opinions.
Number of cancellations, frequency of canellations, whether or not series have run as long as the old days, how much they are allowed to run before cancellations, how consistent counts of new titles and manga artists to come and go has been….
These are not my opinions. These are facts.So yes, continue your shitty crusade to label everything as opinions.
Just another argument where the loser who has nothing to back him degenerates into "but it's just all opinions!" garbage.I have... provided examples to back anything I've been saying.
You have done nothing but point fingers, label, and insist on "opinions".
I've done my share, you're hopeless.--- Update From New Post Merge ---
is Ultra Red mentioned by Aohige before a manga by Kongo Banchou and Nanatsu Taizai's mangaka?
Yeah, it was a good manga. Extremely violent, and takes fight scenes very, very seriously.
Alas, it didn't fare very well, and unfortunately ran at a time when the Editor in Chief was a serious cut-throat, and got the shaft.
In the end, him moving to Sunday was a good thing though. -
Fuck you. No.
You want me to list One Piece polls and sales? How the fuck is that my opinion?Only opinion I've been saying are: "things haven't changed as much as you think" and "short lived series are shitty". And I've been providing the following facts to back WHY I have these opinions.
Number of cancellations, frequency of canellations, whether or not series have run as long as the old days, how much they are allowed to run before cancellations, how consistent counts of new titles and manga artists to come and go has been….
These are not my opinions. These are facts.So yes, continue your shitty crusade to label everything as opinions.
Just another shitty argument where the loser who has nothing to back him degenerates into "but it's just opinions!" bullshit.I have... provided examples to back anything I've been saying.
You have done nothing but point fingers, label, and insist on "opinions".
I've done my share, you're hopeless.Wow. Ok.
You realize that before I agreed with all of your facts.
I am saying that I think based on those facts it wouldn't survive,
you are saying, that based on those facts, it is a fact that it would survive.I asked for your opinion. But you just wanna shove your opinion as fact down my throat :(
Think of the hypothetical children. Won't somebody please think of the hypothetical children. -
is Ultra Red mentioned by Aohige before a manga by Kongo Banchou and Nanatsu Taizai's mangaka?
It is! It was… Flawed. Read it if you want to see Nakaba's early stuff. Rising Impact more so.
EDIT: ugh, Aohige is faster than me. but yes, Nakaba's better off in sunday
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Except, you know, it's a hypothetical children to you.
I was fucking there, I was one of them. It ain't hypothetical children, they were my PEERS.
Although not exactly a child anymore, still young. -
Except, you know, it's a hypothetical children to you.
I was fucking there, I was one of them. It ain't hypothetical children, they were my PEERS.
Although not exactly a child anymore, still young.Ok. Thank you. You just admitted to projecting onto these children. Yes. You were there. But you weren't them.
You can only give you own opinion. Not their's.
Thank you for winning the argument against you, yourself.
It is always great when someone proves themself wrong. -
Can you please provide anything to back your opinion, or are you going to continue spouting garbage?
As for projecting, no SHIT. If you actually bothered to READ, I said, we're both projecting to the general Jump audience, mine backed by figures and personal experience, yours backed by only your gut feeling.
1. What you are doing is ASSUMPTION based on your own personal opinion projected on others.
2. What I'm doing is ASSUMPTION based on cold hard figures, projected observation on others. -
Thanks Aohige and Maxy.. saw that manga in the chinese magazine (like WSJ) long time ago but don't know its name because i can't read mandarin..haha
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Can you please provide anything to back your opinion, or are you going to continue spouting garbage?
There is plenty of it in the previous pages.
You probably couldn't read it over that huge movie projector hitting stobing everyone in the face. What movie projector. You know. That annoying one that just shows up in you house sometimes and sits on your computer. It can't possibly be a metaphor or anything. -
There is plenty of it in the previous pages.
You probably couldn't read it over that huge movie projector hitting stobing everyone in the face. What movie projector. You know. That annoying one that just shows up in you house sometimes and sits on your computer. It can't possibly be a metaphor or anything.Real talk, at this point, no matter how Aohige's behaving, this is where I can see you're just being a needless arsehole. Work at saying something of value instead of bickering or just be quiet for a bit, because it's completely bloody tiresome.
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There is plenty of it in the previous pages.
You probably couldn't read it over that huge movie projector hitting stobing everyone in the face. What movie projector. You know. That annoying one that just shows up in you house sometimes and sits on your computer. It can't possibly be a metaphor or anything.Only thing you have ever presented to support your claims were assumptions.
You don't even realize you are also projecting to the children, and point fingers, when in fact we both are.
And for the third time, I have been doing everything to present you what supports my claims. You on the other hand, have not.So you degenerate into <insert above="" post="">, without even bothering to fight with evidences.
I'm obviously wasting time if you're not going to make any constructive attempts.</insert> -
Thank you for winning the argument against you, yourself.
It is always great when someone proves themself wrong.You realize you're just being a dick here right? Don't post to "win" arguments and insult other users. If you are posting make sure that what you write adds to the conversation in some way.
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Only thing you have ever presented to support your claims were assumptions.
You don't even realize you are also projecting to the children, and point fingers, when in fact we both are.
And for the third time, I have been doing everything to present you what supports my claims. You on the other hand, have not.So you degenerate into <insert above="" post="">, without even bothering to fight with evidences.
I'm obviously wasting time if you're not going to make any constructive attempts.</insert>Not that I don't want to keep making constuctive attempts, but you see, I do, and then you ignore them, and then you want me to repeat them, just after repeating yourself to you to prove my point about what you actually did say, and it is just redundant and one-sided.
That fact that you don't think I gave any support even shows that this debate has been pretty one-sided.
If you actually go back and read and say you found nothing, then I would be happy to continue and point it out. -
When everyone in the room calls you an alcoholic, lie down.
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….......................................... orz
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That's not fair, and besides it's not a contest of who has the last post.
I was kinda thinking TOC of 1997~ would be kinda neat to post.
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It's actually a pretty interesting year even if you throw One Piece aside, from what I'm seeing.
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You realize you're just being a dick here right? Don't post to "win" arguments and insult other users. If you are posting make sure that what you write adds to the conversation in some way.
Um…...Thank you?
I really appreciate that you made sure to delete the part where I added to the converstion and then called me a "dick" even though he already conceded to that one thing at least. -
It's really a pet peeve of mine when people just don't bring up the evidence/facts that support their claim when someone asks for them. Hence why I'm doing this so some b.s. such as "people are too lazy to look up my arguments won't fly anymore.
So here's gordanham's args.
1st arg
! @gordanham:
! > As already previously stated, Jump is currently at its peak success with the number of units its combined series can sell surpassing 8 million. 5.5 million of those comes from battle manga alone.
To my knowledge, that certainly isn't how Jump was when One Piece started, or even ever.
I don't understand why it is hard to understand the concept of oversaturation.And besides that. I am also trying to point out the difference not just in the number of units sold, but the length of the current series themselves. There are currently 3 battle series past the 50 volume mark. People have literally grown never known a world without some of these series. It is a completely different climate.
Aaron also been doing a good job about clarifying that THIS IS JUST ABOUT BATTLE MANGA. That is what this question is in regards to.
! So given these facts, one piece wouldn't do well today.
! Here's Aohige's answer to that too in a way.
@Aohige_AP:
! > If he claims "One Piece first chapters were shit, so it wouldn't fly today", that's basically saying that because it DID fly back in 1997 and snagged the top spots as soon as publication started, Rurouni Kenshin, Jojo's Bizzare Adventure, Houshin Engi, etc… all must be even SHITTIER.
We all know that's not the case.
! and here's a list of all the series in jump BTW.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_series_run_in_Weekly_Shōnen_JumpThe second arg
! @gordanham:
! > I was just saying that I feel those first chapters wouldn't cut it with the generation reading Jump now.
I am sure everyone who sent in those surveys for One Piece when it first came out are still enjoying the series today, but realistically, they probably never send them in anymore, and I think it is even safe to assume that a good chuck of them don't even read it in Jump anymore.
! Something like people's opinions have changed, the people of today wouldn't vote the same as back then. NOT an actual fact supported by evidence, but your argument nonetheless, unless you have something proving that tastes have changed since 1997 to 2013.
! Aohige's answer is One Piece has been in the top 3 since it's debut in chapter 9. Technically, not backed up with physical evidence either, but I think it's fair to say that he's correct. Either way though, I think the fact that One Piece did survive proves people cared about it.So it's your burden gordanham to prove the correlation between the oversaturation of One Piece, Bleach, and Naruto and decline in interest in battle manga and that it isn't the same as the environment that One Piece was in while it was first published.
Aohige could try to prove the opposite though. Show which long running series were in Jump in 1997 and try to show off their sales/volume #s at the time.
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Or, you know, who cares
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Well, to be honest, I don't argue that due to narrower margin of pages available, it's tougher for a battle manga to take up space.
However, it comes down to "if it's really good enough, that kids will like, it will be given a chance to prove itself".This has never changed. Ever.
And vast, vast, majority of these short-lived battle manga were just as crappy as the ones that got canned quickly 20 years ago. None of that has changed either.And despite having OP/NARUTO/BLEAH taking up place, we STILL had battle-titles that exceeded in serialization length some of the most cherished classics, proving that battle manga, in fact, are given more than fair chances.
Basically, if OP was able to satisfy kids who were enjoying Jojo and Kenshin, it would fly well today.
I mean look at the opinions you guys often express on Assassination Classroom. A lot of people are puzzled by its success, but I could see it coming a mile away. I even predicted it'll do more than 100k on the first volume, and hit the mark.I think it's pretty safe to say I'm a lot more "relate-able" towards the Japanese audience, don't you think?
I've been observing the manga market for decades too. -
Here's a nice fact from the TOCs. One Piece never left the top 5 in 1998, and only came in at no. 5 ONCE. Amazing, innit
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Or, you know, who cares
I'd like to see a meaningless internet battle end with defeat or victory instead of name calling just once.
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Any argument on the internet is a loss the second it becomes an actual argument and not something of worth, but I get what you mean
Side note: well done us for having this take us well past the 250 page mark
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It's really a pet peeve of mine when people just don't bring up the evidence/facts that support their claim when someone asks for them. Hence why I'm doing this so some b.s. such as "people are too lazy to look up my arguments won't fly anymore.
So here's gordanham's args.
1st arg
! So given these facts, one piece wouldn't do well today.
! Here's Aohige's answer to that too in a way.
! and here's a list of all the series in jump BTW.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_series_run_in_Weekly_Shōnen_JumpThe second arg
! Something like people's opinions have changed, the people of today wouldn't vote the same as back then. NOT an actual fact supported by evidence, but your argument nonetheless, unless you have something proving that tastes have changed since 1997 to 2013.
! Aohige's answer is One Piece has been in the top 3 since it's debut in chapter 9. Technically, not backed up with physical evidence either, but I think it's fair to say that he's correct. Either way though, I think the fact that One Piece did survive proves people cared about it.So it's your burden gordanham to prove the correlation between the oversaturation of One Piece, Bleach, and Naruto and decline in interest in battle manga and that it isn't the same as the environment that One Piece was in while it was first published.
Aohige could try to prove the opposite though. Show which long running series were in Jump in 1997 and try to show off their sales/volume #s at the time.
Oh my god. Thank you so much Gizmo.
That is how to make someone feel like a dick.
Do their work for them and then be like, "You pet peeving me, man!"
Sorry.
Thanks for the trouble.I just was over having to repost everything for Aohige.
He can see them know.
If he can't accept that I was just stating my opinion.
Well whatever.
Doesn't change the fact that it is my opinion. -
Well, to be honest, I don't argue that due to narrower margin of pages available, it's tougher for a battle manga to take up space.
However, it comes down to "if it's really good enough, that kids will like, it will be given a chance to prove itself".This has never changed. Ever.
And vast, vast, majority of these short-lived battle manga were just as crappy as the ones that got canned quickly 20 years ago. None of that has changed either.And despite having OP/NARUTO/BLEAH taking up place, we STILL had battle-titles that exceeded in serialization length some of the most cherished classics, proving that battle manga, in fact, are given more than fair chances.
The "other" debate seemed to be that One Piece wasn't that great in the beginning, so it would fail if the chapters were shown today, which given it was in the top 5 throughout 1998 from Maxy B there's evidence that proves the people of Japan thought otherwise. Hence why I brought it up.
Doesn't change the fact that it is my opinion.
Well, why wouldn't it be okay for Aohige to say why he disagrees with what you're saying. If it's an opinion, and someone disagrees, either engage or let it go. Whining about people projecting doesn't get anybody anywhere. Same with name calling too but that goes for both sides.
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gordanham, the reason why I said you presented no evidences, as pointed out above, nothing you mentioned have backed your claim on your assumption of One Piece's reception. And opinions are worthless to base argument off if it's does not have support.
My stance on battle-manga today are, it's not as different enough as 97 for it to not stick.
A good manga will stick. (A good manga, in this definition, are those which appeal to the kids)
Any that have promise are given plenty of exposure, sometimes even more than successful classics in the past. (like having 40 volumes of Reborn, and 24 volumes of Nura)You see, the reason why I accuse you of lack of evidences are, you made no attempt to counter these "observations" I've made based on factual data we have.
And even worse are the arguments over hypothetical question of OP.
I still see nothing you said to counter what we've presented. You only have the lead-in info you were given at the start, not an counter point to the arguments. -
Ooh, I found the first point One Piece wasn't in the top 5: issue 27/2000.
It was beaten out by Shimabukuro's Takeshi Century Leader thing, Sand Land, Prince of Tennis, Naruto and (funnily enough) Rising Impact.
That's… Why the hell am I still going through these? -
As for oversaturation.
WSJ 1997 issue 34
One Piece (new)
Rurouni Kenshin (battle)
Jojo's bizzare adventure (battle)
Seikimatsu Leader Takeshi! (gag - soon to be turned into battle)
Houshin Engi (battle)
JOKER (battle, wrestling)
I's (romance)
Kochikame (sit-com)
Wild Half (mystery action)
BOY (music band manga)
Jigoku Sensei Nuube (classroom action/comedy, like AC)
Hanasaka Tenshi Tenten-kun (gag manga)
Midori no Makibao (horse racing)
Makuhari (gag manga)
Yuugioh
Wrestling with Momoko (<- gag manga by Taachan artist)
Majomusume Vivian (<- started as gag, but turned into battle manga) -
I really don't think that it's harder nowadays to succeed with a battle manga in Jump.
All the battle manga that failed in the recent years were just not good enough.
I can't think of any battle manga being canceled quickly not deserving it (especially not Bulge that seems to be liked in this forum for some reason).
It may seem harder because they end faster than other genres but it's probably because with battle manga it's easier to estimate if it can become a hit or not by looking at how the first chapters/volume is received.
Anyway, I'm looking forward next manga by Psyren's author (hopefully third time's the charm) and Magico's (if he learned from his mistake I believe he has the potential to make a huge hit).
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Well, to be honest, I don't argue that due to narrower margin of pages available, it's tougher for a battle manga to take up space.
However, it comes down to "if it's really good enough, that kids will like, it will be given a chance to prove itself".I am not saying they still don't have a chance. I am just saying I think that chance is the smallest it has ever been. Besides the recent Nurarihyon, which was kinda gently canned, and Toriko, which I believe you said youself was given push by he editors in TOC, not surveys, the only longest runnig staight up battle manga in the last few years has been Psyren. Which as we all know, was cancelled too.
And are you taking into account that in this scenario One Piece will come after years of Naruto and Bleach?
Sure One Piece may have seemed pretty exceptioinal when it orginally debuted, but I am pretty sure now-a-days many readers senses would have dulled to the slow shonen setup one piece chose to go with.
I think my problem here in lies that you don't seem able to accept this. I hope I don't have to post the discussion on oversaturation.
I know you know that whether or not a series is good doesn't mean it will get published, but with One Piece, that seems to be the majority of your arguement.
It is good, do it would survive the rankings. That's not realistic. The different climate of Jump is a major factor.This has never changed. Ever.
And vast, vast, majority of these short-lived battle manga were just as crappy as the ones that got canned quickly 20 years ago. None of that has changed either.I did't say NOTHING changed in 16 years. I said, more things stayed the same than not.
It's not as different as you believe, just because some shitty little manga got canned that you happened to like.Why are you contradicting youself again? :(
Basically, if OP was able to satisfy kids who were enjoying Jojo and Kenshin, it would fly well today.
Yeah. I don't think this really helps your argument. In someform, these two series are still around, and guess what, they are in different magazines. And hey, there, they enjoy their moderate success, but they would be on the low end of Jump for sure.
I think it's pretty safe to say I'm a lot more "relate-able" towards the Japanese audience, don't you think?
I've been observing the manga market for decades too.I don't know your life story. I just know you live or lived in Japan.
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As for oversaturation.
WSJ 1997 issue 34
One Piece (new)
Rurouni Kenshin (battle)
Jojo's bizzare adventure (battle)
Seikimatsu Leader Takeshi! (gag - soon to be turned into battle)
Houshin Engi (battle)
JOKER (battle, wrestling)
I's (romance)
Kochikame (sit-com)
Wild Half (mystery action)
BOY (music band manga)
Jigoku Sensei Nuube (classroom action/comedy, like AC)
Hanasaka Tenshi Tenten-kun (gag manga)
Midori no Makibao (horse racing)
Makuhari (gag manga)
Yuugioh
Wrestling with Momoko (<- gag manga by Taachan artist)
Majomusume Vivian (<- started as gag, but turned into battle manga)This is a thing I keep trying to say to people, but hey look nice evidence: Gag isn't suddenly big now. LOOK AT THAT. and that's proper gag in a lot of cases. Joke-driven, shorter material.
Also I never knew Takeshi moved away from Gag. Never read more than that first volume.
EDIT: @fana. True fact: I keep forgetting about Psyren. Notable battle success right there. Still surprised it never got adapted. Glad, but surprised
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As for oversaturation.
WSJ 1997 issue 34
One Piece (new)
Rurouni Kenshin (battle)
Jojo's bizzare adventure (battle)
Seikimatsu Leader Takeshi! (gag - soon to be turned into battle)
Houshin Engi (battle)
JOKER (battle, wrestling)
I's (romance)
Kochikame (sit-com)
Wild Half (mystery action)
BOY (music band manga)
Jigoku Sensei Nuube (classroom action/comedy, like AC)
Hanasaka Tenshi Tenten-kun (gag manga)
Midori no Makibao (horse racing)
Makuhari (gag manga)
Yuugioh
Wrestling with Momoko (<- gag manga by Taachan artist)
Majomusume Vivian (<- started as gag, but turned into battle manga)This doesn't support you side. Here there are only 4 battle manga. There are basically always at minimum 5 battle manga in jump now.
And if that isn't enough, you don't seem to understand the other half of oversaturation. It isn't just the number of battle manga, but the amout those series popularty as well, ala units sold.
So. Yeah. I totally don't know.
But I am guessing even those 3 battle series(I'm excluding One Piece) pulled in over 3 million units.So yeah. Todays market: More Series and More Units
I am pretty sure that is a point in my corner.The market is different now. Do you just not think that?
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Early One Piece was really good.
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Not knowing anything about the taste of japanese children I'm going to say that I believe that One Piece would still survive long enough today for it to hit some of its strides, based on the fact that the manga always knew were to go and what it wanted to do. Also it's humor seems very child endearing.
Something that can't be said about all the shortlived series(heck even some of the longer going series) whose names I kind of already forgot.The first chapters set it up very clearly that it's going to be about recruiting, the mystery of new characters especially when you like the ones already introduced is I think always enticing. Adventure is always a very beloved theme for a lot of children(as adults) the promise of new places and a world much bigger than we know. And I feel the most important, before one piece is about style and coolness it's about emotion. The stuff with the dog and the mayor though simple is pretty robust and it was pretty early, too.
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I am not saying they still don't have a chance. I am just saying I think that chance is the smallest it has ever been. Besides the recent Nurarihyon, which was kinda gently canned, and Toriko, which I believe you said youself was given push by he editors in TOC, not surveys, the only longest runnig staight up battle manga in the last few years has been Psyren. Which as we all know, was cancelled too.
And are you taking into account that in this scenario One Piece will come after years of Naruto and Bleach?
Sure One Piece may have seemed pretty exceptioinal when it orginally debuted, but I am pretty sure now-a-days many readers senses would have dulled to the slow shonen setup one piece chose to go with.
I think my problem here in lies that you don't seem able to accept this. I hope I don't have to post the discussion on oversaturation.
I know you know that whether or not a series is good doesn't mean it will get published, but with One Piece, that seems to be the majority of your arguement.
It is good, do it would survive the rankings. That's not realistic. The different climate of Jump is a major factor.Nurarihyon was canned after 24 volumes.
That's a very long run for a battle manga in general.
I think you're stuck in this "Unless it goes on as long as Naruto/OP/Bleah it's a failure!"
Which is not the case at all. The length of those are much longer than your average battle manga.If you look at the length battle manga have lived in Jump, it hasn't really changed over the years!
Why are you contradicting youself again? :(
Ok look. Stop. Just… stop. Think.
These quotes do not contradict each other what-so-ever."I didn't say NOTHING changed"
"these points mentioned by me as counterpoints have not changed"I don't know your life story. I just know you live or lived in Japan.
I'm native Japanese.
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It's actually six, hybrid series count, even YuGiOh
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Nurarihyon was canned after 24 volumes.
That's a very long run for a battle manga in general.
I think you're stuck in this "Unless it goes on as long as Naruto/OP/Bleah it's a failure!"
Which is not the case at all. The length of those are much longer than your average battle manga.The key word was canned. In the end two were canned, and all three had Editorial push just to get as far as they did.
Don't you think that is evidence pointing to struggling battle manga?@Maxy:
It's actually six, hybrid series count, even YuGiOh
Then you would have to add the hybrids in Jump now too. Making it 7-8.
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So was Saint freakin' Seiya. So did Shaman King.
Even popular manga gets canned if its overstays its welcome, that is the nature of Jump.
Hell, even the all-mighty Kinnikuman used to struggle with polls.If you ran for 40 volumes and got canned, and didn't manage to wrap shit up well, that's your own fault.
(Reborn, I'm looking at you)Then you would have to add the hybrids in Jump now too. Making it 7-8.
That's because you are unfamiliar with titles back then.
Those "gag turned battle" isn't gag manga that has battle like Beelzebub.
They turned COMPLETELY into battle oriented manga. -
So was Saint freakin' Seiya. So did Shaman King.
Even popular manga gets canned if its overstays its welcome, that is the nature of Jump.If you ran for 40 volumes and got canned, and didn't manage to wrap shit up well, that's your own fault.
(Reborn, I'm looking at you)Then the rebutle to that is,
guess what,
We are probably in the only time where there has ever been 3 series that have no possibility of getting cancelled.
Of course, unless sells plummet to Medaka level. One Piec, Bleach, and Nartuto, have 0% chance of getting cancelled.
Don't you think this is evidence for a different climate of Jump that opens it self to oversaturation and a thicker barrier of entry? -
Speaking of canned, Aohige, do you remember a manga from 2000 called Sanjuushi/三獣士. Some reason I keep going back to look at it. Wiki makes it sound entertaining/really dumb, but I was wondering what an actual person who'd probably have read it thinks.
(also I still totally don't think Reborn was canned as much as just had a hasty ending. Probably wrong though, looking at it)
Also Gordan, a difference of 2 is slight, still totally fits the 'nothing changes much' deal
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@Maxy:
Speaking of canned, Aohige, do you remember a manga from 2000 called Sanjuushi/三獣士. Some reason I keep going back to look at it. Wiki makes it sound entertaining/really dumb, but I was wondering what an actual person who'd probably have read it thinks.
(also I still totally don't think Reborn was canned as much as just had a hasty ending. Probably wrong though, looking at it)
Also Gordan, a difference of 2 is slight, still totally fits the 'nothing changes much' deal
Was that the weird Journey-to-the-West meets three musketeers meets cowboys thing?
I don't have recollection on it other than seeing it in the mag. -
@Maxy:
Speaking of canned, Aohige, do you remember a manga from 2000 called Sanjuushi/三獣士. Some reason I keep going back to look at it. Wiki makes it sound entertaining/really dumb, but I was wondering what an actual person who'd probably have read it thinks.
(also I still totally don't think Reborn was canned as much as just had a hasty ending. Probably wrong though, looking at it)
Also Gordan, a difference of 2 is slight, still totally fits the 'nothing changes much' deal
A difference is a difference. That is how supportive evidence works.
Plus it is a minimum.
There are currently 10 in Jump. -
Yeah, that's the one (good recall, by the way). Ah well, I might just have to take a stab at it once I'm back in the UK and able to confidently order things to one location. It's something about Son Goku's ears in it that just tickles my design sensibilities
EDIT @gordan. Actually, yeah, fair point. This is a much better way to debate things, by the way. It's still not super different, but is certainly indicative of how strong fight-inclusive manga are now. It is a marginally different environment.
Which leads me to wonder what it was like when Dragon Ball was in its fighting prime.
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Then the rebutle to that is,
guess what,
We are probably in the only time where there has ever been 3 series that have no possibility of getting cancelled.
Of course, unless sells plummet to Medaka level. One Piec, Bleach, and Nartuto, have 0% chance of getting cancelled.
Don't you think this is evidence for a different climate of Jump that opens it self to oversaturation and a thicker barrier of entry?See, that's where you're getting flipped.
Its not a thicker barrier or entry. It's a challenge to stay.
But exactly because the cycle of canned manga is so frequent, everyone gets a shot.And frankly good manga tends to stay for a while, and forgettable manga tends to go away.
If nothing is sticking, the problem is lack of good new manga. It's quite simple as that.I honestly don't remember a good battle manga that should have stayed around.
Well, I liked Ultra Red and was sad it was gone, but I also felt it was inevitable.A difference is a difference. That is how supportive evidence works.
Plus it is a minimum.
There are currently 10 in Jump.LOL no.
Not remotely the same.Apparently you missed this:
That's because you are unfamiliar with titles back then.
Those "gag turned battle" isn't gag manga that has battle like Beelzebub.
They turned COMPLETELY into battle oriented manga.These gag-mangas completely abandoned its format and went all-battle.
If you go by your LOL TEN rule, pretty much ALL of 1997 manga are battle manga with the exception of kochikame and I's. LOL.
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What. You just reverted back to your original argument.
So do you think what is in Jump is determined simply by weather or not it is good?
You yourself said you don't like Medaka, but do you consider it Good?
Do you think it deserved to be in Jump?
According to your cold hard facts arguement earlier, Medaka is by simple definition, a good series that deserves to be in Jump.These gag-mangas completely abandoned its format and went all-battle.
Ok. But were they all battle manga by at One Piece's debut?
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What. You just reverted back to your original argument.
So do you think what is in Jump is determined simply by weather or not it is good?
You yourself said you don't like Medaka, but do you consider it Good?
Do you think it deserved to be in Jump?
According to your cold hard facts arguement earlier, Medaka is by simple definition, a good series that deserves to be in Jump.I am able to differentiate my own opinion and what I perceive as good for Jump readers.
It's called experienced eyes on product and market.I hate Twilight but if I was the marketer, I'd jump on it without a thought.
That said, Medaka isn't actually doing all that well, it's sales have been shoddy considering it's had multiple TV airings.
It sells about half of SKET and Beelzebub, and is constantly "saved" by newer manga getting the axe first.But regardless, it's still floating, and that by definition is a fairly "good" manga for WSJ.
I think it's garbage. But that has no bearing on how I see it doing in Jump.
(I think Reborn and D Greyman were garbage too, but I can see why they were popular)
Our "opinions" on likes/dislikes of quality of a product don't dictate the world or markets.
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since I started reading manga, there are only a few Jump manga that I thought deserved to hang around longer.
Mx0 is the biggest example, I think that one had a lot of promise, but even that got to run for 100 chapters. which is more than can be said for a lot of these gone-in-a-year series.
Then Magico ran for 50 chapters, and while it could have run for perhaps another 50, that might have been a stretch. I was sad to see it sent off with such a rushed ending, but it definitely was given enough time to prove itself.
Oumagadoki is perhaps the only short-lived series that I really liked. Double-arts, Akaboshi, St&rs, Barrage - they weren't really that interesting, and I'd have cut them, too.
So if the argument is "it is hard for a battle manga to make it these days" and the counterargument is "the good ones are still sticking around, the bad ones are still getting dropped, there just don't happen to be a lot of good ones right now", then I agree with it. Three series ended prematurely in 8 years isn't bad odds, especially since two of them ran for more than a year.
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Looks like Kiruko hit the rock bottom on TOC.
Or at least, that's what the spoiler hints.ouch.