no reasonable explanation? how about they are all suck?
The "Shueisha" Thread
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Thank you, exactly.
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And yes, we have series like Reborn and Nura.
Things get a fair chance, but only after a certain threshhold. I'm not trying to talk about manga that get canned in 10 volumes, I'm talking about the ones that get canned in 2. Especially since the decision to can them probably came around the time they had at most one volume of material, since I have to imagine mangaka are given some advanced notice. -
And again, vast majority of manga that gets canned in two volumes totally sucked.
I'm sorry if your favorite manga got canned and you want to blame One Piece for it, but that's the truth.
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But you, BOTH OF YOU are completely ignoring battle manga that came and went in the past 10 years.
I lived through Jump eras you speak of, instead of you just reading about it.
Battle manga always came and went at the speed of light. Fucking always.
Out of countless cancellations, some stick. One Piece stuck from the start, and no, it wasn't shitty like you claim.You know how many volumes of Reborn there is? 40 volumes.
You know how many volumes of Fist of the North Star or Saint Seiya? Far less.
In fact, what if I told you Nurarihyon no Mago went as long as the above two? Despite being mediocre and getting canned?Not given a fair chance my fucking ass.
It really seems like you are the ones ignoring things. We acknowledge that, and that the same number of series that have been been canned overall has remained the same.
I think that it has been pretty clear, that what we are trying to say, is that, right now, this has probably been the hardest time ever for a battle manga or not.
I mean, I love your long answers, but if you could simply say whether or not you agree with that, like "yes" or "no," that would be a nice addition. -
I'm not saying they didn't. I'm saying that realistically it would be harder, even if only by a bit, given the way Jump's system operates. And honestly, I get the feeling that because of all the series that have been going on forever running now, a lot of new mangaka are probably making series with the intent of running them for a long time, for better or worse.
And I still don't think ONe Piece had a particularly amazing beginning. Better than a lot of the new series, sure, but not by as much as I feel like you make it out to be. BUt hey, that's just my opinion -
I really don't think they all sucked. Especially not Double Arts and Bulge. Both of those series died when series that were terrible from the very beginning like Reborn managed 40 volumes. Although, we are talking about the tastes of the main readership, of course
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I disagree, I think 20 volumes is an arbitrary goalpost
Unless you're a romance manga in Jump, in which case it would be a new record.
Also this is all getting mental and super subjective. Yes, if a series is canned at a low volume count it probably wasn't very good, if not in quality then in its ability to work the audience it's supposed to appeal to.
Oh and back on the rookie artist thing, where do Akira Akatsuki or Saeki Shun fit in? Years of work on porn comics gives them a fanbase, even if it isn't transferable? Is Saeki a rookie? Was Akatsuki a rookie when M&Y came out? This is all exceedingly complicated.
EDIT: There are plenty of reasons Barrage and Double Arts were flawed (not gonna say sucked, trying not to be like that), and… Ultimately it doesn't matter, does it. If the main audience doesn't like 'em, they die, and that means the flaws were too great. I like to acknowledge that stuff and enjoy things anyway. Double Arts had a horrible lack of direction after a while, and Barrage was over-designed, had a poor silhouette and a weapon that was super hard to make work (hence it changing. See also buso Renkin for another example of this
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Yeah this is really getting nowhere.
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LOL, if Bulge ran 20 years ago, it would have been canned then as well.
It all comes down to, "There has to be other reasons why my favorite series got canned other than it sucked".Both of you. Go and pick up old issues of Jump, and see how many battle manga were getting canned EVERY. SINGLE. YEAR.
Get back to me when you do.
Or what, do you want me to spend the next couple of hours at work digging old shit and giving you factual information? -
LOL, if Bulge ran 20 years ago, it would have been canned then as well.
It all comes down to, "There has to be other reasons why my favorite series got canned other than it sucked".Both of you. Go and pick up old issues of Jump, and see how many battle manga were getting canned EVERY. SINGLE. YEAR.
Get back to me when you do.
Or what, do you want me to spend the next couple of hours at work digging old shit and giving you factual information?I'm not saying it wouldn't get canned 20 years ago, I'm just saying that doesn't mean it deserved it.
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That Reborn lasted longer than Saint Seiya and Fist of the North Star makes me sad. Gintama is longer than Dragon Ball since last year I think.
Well, the top 2 lasted what they should have, Reborn was dragged out, so in the end It was the right thing to do.
The editorial department seems to think that longer == better right now, I hope that AssClass goes with it's plan, that Bakuman planted the seeds of change, and that they learn from Naruto/Bleach/Reborn that a series needs to be good and memorable before long.
I feel like Gintama and Medaka Box should start to wrap up, Gintama hasn't been particulary funny since the Kintama Arc, with a low on the Sword and Sheats arc, and Medaka even after recovering from bad and weird, shouldn't push it's luck.
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Oof, deserving's a difficult thing, man. Jump's a… meritocracy? I guess? You do well, you're rewarded, you don't, you're looked down upon. In a less cruel anthology it might not have deserved it, but by definition of it being unpopular, it totally did.
Side-note: Barrage volume 1 is out soon in the US, innit? This'll be our first big moment with small titles getting licensed for print. Keep an eye out on how that goes, it might affect if Takamagahara, One-Punch Man, Cross Manage, Etc. actually get physical editions.
God, what a title to rest such a thing upon...
EDIT: Man, Maxterdexter, that shouldn't make you sad, because I mean even if you don't like it, 42 volumes is insane for a female creator in Jump. That's just... Awesome, regardless of Reborn's flaws. That and Seiya and Hokuto no Ken might have lived longer if the market was like today's, where we hold onto successes and drag 'em out.
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If Onepunch-Man doesn't get a print release because Barrage does poorly…....I don't even want to think about that right now....
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Heck, after Takamagahara I wouldn't even bet on it getting a digital release as a guarantee. That's been completely disowned from the looks of how long it's been since the tanks hit Japan
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I'm not sure we can put One Punch-man in the same group as the others being that its already had some success in japan and is unlikely to get canned anytime soon, but who knows
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Piece stuck from the start, and no, it wasn't shitty like you claim.
Ok. You seem to projecting A LOT.
I never said that One Piece was "shitty." I mean. Come on. We are on a One Piece fan forum. I just said that the beginning of One Piece is by far the most mediocre, and I don't think that is a bad thing, on the contrary, I think that is a good thing. I want a series to start good and only get better from there. And that is exactly what One Piece does
But yeah, to be fair. That is all the beginning of One Piece is in the beginning, just good. There is nothing particularly spectacular about it.
If you think that you judged the entire culmination of the story of One Piece and what it would become just by reading those first chapters, then I think it is pretty safe to call Shenanegans on you at this point.
The truth is, nobody knows what is going to start a hit or become a hit. Jump definitely knows this, and I don't understand why that is hard to admit.I really do think you people are just new to Jump in general, and assuming things are completely different about everything than when you weren't around.
Oh. And this second comment. Yeah. Pretty much you became the King of Projecting. I mean, this comment isn't just kinda totally BS here, but in almost every aspect of life in general. If you think nothing has changed in the last 16 years alone. Then yeah….kinda tough to argue with a person like that.
Kinda been feeling it for a while, but you kinda just seem like you are sticking with your guns...well..... for the sake of sticking with your guns.
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Well then a fairer comparison would be Nisekoi. No confirmed print, slow digital volumes (I do expect this'll speed up soon enough though, judging from how well it does in the online store)… Actually slow volumes wouldn't be too bad for One-Punch Man, would it? I mean it's irregular already, I'm told
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I'm not saying it wouldn't get canned 20 years ago, I'm just saying that doesn't mean it deserved it.
From WSJ POV, I believe it did.
I think he chose the wrong magazine to work for.–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Ok. You seem to projecting A LOT.
I never said that One Piece was "shitty." I mean. Come on. We are on a One Piece fan forum. I just said that the beginning of One Piece is by far the most mediocre, and I don't think that is a bad thing, on the contrary, I think that is a good thing. I want a series to start good and only get better from there. And that is exactly what One Piece does
But yeah, to be fair. That is all the beginning of One Piece is in the beginning, just good. There is nothing particularly spectacular about it.
If you think that you judged the entire culmination of the story of One Piece and what it would become just by reading those first chapters, then I think it is pretty safe to call Shenanegans on you at this point.
The truth is, nobody knows what is going to start a hit or become a hit. Jump definitely knows this, and I don't understand why that is hard to admit.You see, that's the fucking problem. You are projecting YOUR OWN OPINIONS on someone entirely not you, you know, JAPENSE CHILDREN IN 1997. How are you so blind at this?
You think it was mediocre. The Japanese kids reading WSJ DID NOT. Otherwise, why would it vote OP instead of popular Rurouni Kenshin or Jojo? You know why? I will tell you why. Because THEY DIDN'T FIND IT MEDIOCRE.
Do you get it? You didn't vote. You weren't there. Your opinions do not matter.Oh. And this second comment. Yeah. Pretty much you became the King of Projecting. I mean, this comment isn't just kinda totally BS here, but in almost every aspect of life in general. If you think nothing has changed in the last 16 years alone. Then yeah….kinda tough to argue with a person like that.
Kinda been feeling it for a while, but you kinda just seem like you are sticking with your guns...well..... for the sake of sticking with your guns.
Right, uh-huh. And your attempt to label "manchildren" was so classy too, right?
In absolutely no ways did you draw the gun first right? Jesus.I did't say NOTHING changed in 16 years. I said, more things stayed the same than not.
It's not as different as you believe, just because some shitty little manga got canned that you happened to like. -
Dudes, for real, debate, but when you start getting into proper arguments and accusing people of stuff… Geez. For one, subjectivity, one person can find it mediocre compared to the rest, that's a taste. We can't use this as a marker of quality. The closest we have to an objective one without analysing the entire dang old series in detail in areas that can be judged objectively (like... Um...), is the TOC and tank sales. One Piece was an early hit, we know this, and it changed Jump. It's the biggest thing. Hence why this whole original thing of imagining how it would do now when it's the forebearer of this era is so hard and stuff. How this evolved into the never-ending back and forth is confusing me, but can we get back to niceties and OH SHIT I AM THE SOFT ONE
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@Maxy:
Dudes, for real, debate, but when you start getting into proper arguments and accusing people of stuff… Geez. For one, subjectivity, one person can find it mediocre compared to the rest, that's a taste. We can't use this as a marker of quality. The closest we have to an objective one without analysing the entire dang old series in detail in areas that can be judged objectively (like... Um...), is the TOC and tank sales. One Piece was an early hit, we know this, and it changed Jump. It's the biggest thing. Hence why this whole original thing of imagining how it would do now when it's the forebearer of this era is so hard and stuff. How this evolved into the never-ending back and forth is confusing me, but can we get back to niceties and OH SHIT I AM THE SOFT ONE
Yeah, and I'm not the one bringing subjective opinions and basing that to judge how a series did back in 97, when in fact those judging them was entirely someone else. You can't claim a Devil's Advocate and when you're only talking about fault of one side.
that can be judged objectively (like… Um...), is the TOC and tank sales
ON SNAP, guess what, this is EXACTLY what I did. -
Oh well your flaw is that you can sound overly harsh in how you say stuff, which probably doesn't help these things. Sugar your speech, pour honey in their ear. You know you want to!
EDIT: yeah, I do basically agree with you. I just like saying it in a horribly soft manner because it saves escalation. Which, to be fair, is less exciting.
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@Maxy:
Oh well your flaw is that you can sound overly harsh in how you say stuff, which probably doesn't help these things. Sugar your speech, pour honey in their ear. You know you want to!
Bitch please, this be ghetto here.
And yes, I'm fully aware those are my faults, but hey, I take offense to being the only poo-smelling baby.
They were ALL poo-smelling babies goddamnit. -
From WSJ POV, I believe it did.
I think he chose the wrong magazine to work for.I get where you're coming from, but is there any reason in particular JUMP isn't the right environment for Horikoshi? I mean, again, readers were evidently fine with series that were meandering messes like Reborn
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I get where you're coming from, but is there any reason in particular JUMP isn't the right environment for Horikoshi? I mean, again, readers were evidently fine with series that were meandering messes like Reborn
I don't think Reborn was any better than Bulge, but I do think it successfully pandered more to the audience.
Every magazine has a culture of readers that are slightly different from each other. -
I don't know how anyone who could consider One Piece to be mediocre after reading the first chapter. There was a lot to expect from an incredible set up like the first chapter and its popularity only soared after that.
Go reread chapter 1 and compared it with other Jump titles to see how brilliant the build-up and potential promise of a "great adventure" this serie has to offer RIGHT at the start. There was obviously a lot of painstaking development and effort that went into this chapter which most Jump new-comers seem to neglect doing. I have yet to read another first chapter that managed to pull off nearly the same level of intriguge and promise of adventure as OP first chapter.
By simply reading the first chapter, one can have a general idea about the author's talents and efforts. I think it is pretty clear Oda put a lot of planning into this chapter based on his comments on his Romance Dawn one shots prior to OP. The first chapter does give away a lot and one can make a general guess on how the serie will fare (though sometimes a serie can make a surprise turn for the better/worse).
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Reborn! had two things in its corner. Pretty-boys and high-stakes action. It's a bi-gender audience grabber as such, which helped it immensely.
Barrage had… neither of these things. If I were to look at that and Ouma, I'd say Horikoshi's failing is having stuff that reads like a great Shonen Sunday series trying to be fast-paced and exciting enough for Weekly Shonen Jump. A statement that makes little sense, but it's softer, in both looks and how it plays out, and it tends to fall on its face when it tries to be anything other than that. Like his stuff has a confused identity.
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@Maxy:
Reborn! had two things in its corner. Pretty-boys and high-stakes action. It's a bi-gender audience grabber as such, which helped it immensely.
Barrage had… neither of these things. If I were to look at that and Ouma, I'd say Horikoshi's failing is having stuff that reads like a great Shonen Sunday series trying to be fast-paced and exciting enough for Weekly Shonen Jump. A statement that makes little sense, but it's softer, in both looks and how it plays out, and it tends to fall on its face when it tries to be anything other than that. Like his stuff has a confused identity.
I really didn't get any of that reading his stuff. To me they're just bursting with life and likeability.
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I don't know how anyone who could consider One Piece to be mediocre after reading the first chapter. There was a lot to expect from an incredible set up like the first chapter and its popularity only soared after that.
Go reread chapter 1 and compared it with other Jump titles to see how brilliant the build-up and potential promise of a "great adventure" this serie has to offer RIGHT at the start. There was obviously a lot of painstaking development and effort that went into this chapter which most Jump new-comers seem to neglect doing. I have yet to read another first chapter that managed to pull off nearly the same level of intriguge and promise of adventure as OP first chapter.
By simply reading the first chapter, one can have a general idea about the author's talents and efforts. I think it is pretty clear Oda put a lot of planning into this chapter based on his comments on his Romance Dawn one shots prior to OP. The first chapter does give away a lot and one can make a general guess on how the serie will fare (though sometimes a serie can make a surprise turn for the better/worse).
Honestly, I think the Alvida and Captain Morgan arcs were kind of dumb. I mean, this loser axe hand guy gets a reign of fear, complete with extrajudicial killings? Really?
I mean, I think Oda's awesome, obviously, but early early early OP (apart from the first chapter) wasn't all that sensational.
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You see, that's the fucking problem. You are projecting YOUR OWN OPINIONS on someone entirely not you, you know, JAPENSE CHILDREN IN 1997. How are you so blind at this?.
Wow. It is really impressive how I can say you are projecting, and it totally just goes in one ear and out the other. Again. I never said any of this. I even JUST SAID, "'time' is only being used as a marker." Again. The entire point of my question, was the difference between the condition of Jump. In both situations I never treated these hypothetical readers differently because of the time they were born.
Right, uh-huh. And your attempt to label "manchildren" was so classy too, right?
In absolutely no ways did you draw the gun first right? Jesus.Wow. It is like you totally were raised on read-and-regurgitate. And you can't even do that. Again. Not what I said. You are projecting.
I did't say NOTHING changed in 16 years. I said, more things stayed the same than not.
It's not as different as you believe, just because some shitty little manga got canned that you happened to like.Ok. Thank you clearing that up. I really don't think anyone could believe that, but….
@Aohige_AP:The number of cancellations have always been about the same, even if you go back 20 years.
It's always been around 10 titles spring up and getting canned every year, this has NOT INCREASED.It is pretty much exactly what you said.
Oh. And your poo-smelling baby comment. Made. My. Day.
I am totally being agrressive right now, but if you seriously think this is a hate match, then yeah. You dead wrong.
I love arguements like this, and I think they are fun. Especially when it is so easy to point out the others ignorance. -
Gordanham and Aohige are my OTP.
Gliblord, I'm with you on liking the life and likeability of Horikoshi's works, and I think that in itself makes it hard to look at the other flaws. He's a creator I really want to be good enough, to match up with the positive aspects of his work. Sadly not the case yet
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Honestly, I think the Alvida and Captain Morgan arcs were kind of dumb. I mean, this loser axe hand guy gets a reign of fear, complete with extrajudicial killings? Really?
Nah, not too much Alvida and Morgan. I am talking about the First Chapter. Higuma isn't much, but he was necessary for buiding up Shanks at an incredible level. Likewise, Alvida and Captain Morgan were pretty much there for essential world building and "flat" villains to toss at the shounen crowd to whet their appetite. If you started with a big drama heavy villain at first, then you pretty much are setting yourself up too fast and might end up with setting the expectations too high at first. Likewise, kids want adventure when they first start reading the serie. Why not start with something simple before jumping into drama heavy Gin/Kreig/Mihawk and Arlong?
That way, you can still occasionally write simple stupid villains and get away with it while dropping in some heavy drama villains in the future (simply because you started with it first and set it up and saving your big guns for later).
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Wow. It is really impressive how I can say you are projecting, and it totally just goes in one ear and out the other. Again. I never said any of this. I even JUST SAID, "'time' is only being used as a marker." Again. The entire point of my question, was the difference between the condition of Jump. In both situations I never treated these hypothetical readers differently because of the time they were born.
No, the point is… and FORGET the so-called imaginary differences of mentality you think they have...
It's very plain and simple. I will break it down since you seem to have a very hard time grasping.1. One Piece did well in polls from the get-go.
2. One Piece SOLD well in takoubon sales from the get-go.
3. One Piece did better than some of the most popular titles of the time.
4. Therefore, One Piece was not considered mediocre.
5. By assuming it was mediocre, you are assuming all other titles (Jojo, Kenshin) were even worse.Do you get it? Do you now see your problem? Is that easy enough breakdown for you?
It is pretty much exactly what you said.
And that doesn't contradict what I said?
Another fail for you.I am totally being agrressive right now, but if you seriously think this is a hate match, then yeah. You dead wrong.
I love arguements like this, and I think they are fun. Especially when it is so easy to point out the others ignorance.Yeah, I know right, trying to label people names and getting a flamed response is totally the characteristics of an innocent victim. Passive-aggressive is soooo classy.
Oh, and DO actually read this page of the thread, since your "ignorance" has been pointed out. Multiple times.
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I don't know how anyone who could consider One Piece to be mediocre after reading the first chapter. There was a lot to expect from an incredible set up like the first chapter and its popularity only soared after that.
Go reread chapter 1 and compared it with other Jump titles to see how brilliant the build-up and potential promise of a "great adventure" this serie has to offer RIGHT at the start. There was obviously a lot of painstaking development and effort that went into this chapter which most Jump new-comers seem to neglect doing. I have yet to read another first chapter that managed to pull off nearly the same level of intriguge and promise of adventure as OP first chapter.
By simply reading the first chapter, one can have a general idea about the author's talents and efforts. I think it is pretty clear Oda put a lot of planning into this chapter based on his comments on his Romance Dawn one shots prior to OP. The first chapter does give away a lot and one can make a general guess on how the serie will fare (though sometimes a serie can make a surprise turn for the better/worse).
Yeah. I basically agree with Gliblord.
First arcs are pretty cheese.
And if you think they hold up, they do not.
I can only appreciate them more now because of what Oda did with those elements later, not in the moment.
And I think those first arcs are by far the biggest barriers for new US readers.
I have gotten people into One Piece, and basically had to chant to them, "It gets better. It gets better," until Volume 4.Interesting how much adventure you got from that first chapter.
How you feel about Skypea?
I think it is the most "Aventure"-y arc, but a lotta people don't like it.
It is like my #2 arc. -
Nah, not too much Alvida and Morgan. I am talking about the First Chapter. Higuma isn't much, but he was necessary for buiding up Shanks at an incredible level. Likewise, Alvida and Captain Morgan were pretty much there for essential world building and "flat" villains to toss at the shounen crowd to whet their appetite. If you started with a big drama heavy villain at first, then you pretty much are setting yourself up too fast and might end up with setting the expectations too high at first. Likewise, kids want adventure when they first start reading the serie. Why not start with something simple before jumping into drama heavy Gin/Kreig/Mihawk and Arlong?
That way, you can still occasionally write simple stupid villains and get away with it while dropping in some heavy drama villains in the future (simply because you started with it first and set it up and saving your big guns for later).
…But that's no different from Bulge? The rock guy was the Alvida/Morgan and he was worldbuilding too during that. Then he geared towards the dark energy villains.
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…But that's no different from Bulge? The rock guy was the Alvida/Morgan and he was worldbuilding too during that. Then he geared towards the dark energy villains.
Now this is entirely subjective, but I didn't find any of the characters in Buldge attractive or interesting, unlike Shanks and post-childhood Luffy.
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Shanks and Luffy had a super-good advantage, in that the first chapter that dealt with their young selves was basically a complete one-shot that just happened to have follow-ups (reminds of me of Dai's Great Adventure like that). So I guess the kind way to compare that to Barrage is that it doesn't take that amount of time on initial world-building. Sure it did Astro and the other guy (oof my brain's died), but we were just served all the stuff about his family and all that without enough backing. Past that point, yeah I'd compare the Alvida/Morgan early chapters to Barrage, but more in that without that first chapter of One Piece they wouldn't have worked, because we wouldn't be invested in Luffy. Same deal with Astro, except we never got that first chapter.
… Oh man, writing that just made me care about Barrage a whole lot more, as a case study more than anything else. When have I scheduled it for? I... haven't. Balls.
EDIT RE: first arcs being cheese. Um... You ever tried reading a manga without the first arcs? Man, I can't dig it. Even ones that change up like Medaka and Reborn! wouldn't be up to par without all that early context.
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1. One Piece did well in polls from the get-go.
2. One Piece SOLD well in takoubon sales from the get-go.
3. One Piece did better than some of the most popular titles of the time.
4. Therefore, One Piece was not considered mediocre.
5. By assuming it was mediocre, you are assuming all other titles (Jojo, Kenshin) were even worse.Do you get it? Do you now see your problem? Is that easy enough breakdown for you?
Bwahhahaahahaha. What are you even talking about? Why are you even bringing this up? This was never even a part of the discussion.
Yeah. I am not saying One Piece wasn't a success.
I KNOW IT WAS A SUCCESS.
The original question was if you think it would survive if it was barely started today.
My answer was no.
My reason was that it was mediocre.
That is my opinion.
It was a question asking about opinion.But apparently that is a wrong opinion to you. Because you know, we have to follow those opinion rules they taught us in school.
Bwhahahahaha.But seriously, this has been an opinion question the entire time. Is that really why you got all fact crazy. I mean, you have the capability to understand people have different opinions than you, and guess what, their opinion is true. And so is your's. That's what an opinion is. Something like mediocrity isn't a fact. No matter what hyperbole you want to use to make it seem so.
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Yeah. I basically agree with Gliblord.
First arcs are pretty cheese.
And if you think they hold up, they do not.
I can only appreciate them more now because of what Oda did with those elements later, not in the moment.
And I think those first arcs are by far the biggest barriers for new US readers.
I have gotten people into One Piece, and basically had to chant to them, "It gets better. It gets better," until Volume 4.Interesting how much adventure you got from that first chapter.
How you feel about Skypea?
I think it is the most "Aventure"-y arc, but a lotta people don't like it.
It is like my #2 arc.Nah, not too much Alvida and Morgan. I am talking about the First Chapter. Higuma isn't much, but he was necessary for buiding up Shanks at an incredible level. Likewise, Alvida and Captain Morgan were pretty much there for essential world building and "flat" villains to toss at the shounen crowd to whet their appetite. If you started with a big drama heavy villain at first, then you pretty much are setting yourself up too fast and might end up with setting the expectations too high at first. Likewise, kids want adventure when they first start reading the serie. Why not start with something simple before jumping into drama heavy Gin/Kreig/Mihawk and Arlong?
That way, you can still occasionally write simple stupid villains and get away with it while dropping in some heavy drama villains in the future (simply because you started with it first and set it up and saving your big guns for later).
Pretty much my response to that. You don't just start with one of your good villains right at the start of your story. That's playing your cards too quickly (in particular, Arlong in this case which I think is the point where OP's popular really soared, but I can be mistaken). Besides, they mostly exist for world building purposes (it wasn't STRICTLY Luffy verses Alvida/Morgan, it was an opportunity to showcase some pirates, Coby (ugh…), Zoro, marines, etc...). Also he focuses on developing character as well while not having them overshadowed by the villains at the start. Therefore, the initial villains are suppose to be "flat and unmemorable" because they are merely foils for demonstrating what the protagonists are capable of (basically punching bags to show off the protagonists talents as someone capable).
…But that's no different from Bulge? The rock guy was the Alvida/Morgan and he was worldbuilding too during that. Then he geared towards the dark energy villains.
Bulge ACTUALLY had me interested in what villains Horikishi had in store due to one panel he had that showcased some of the aliens. Horikoshi had little to no problems with world building, but he had problems with creating a compelling story and character(s).
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Nah, not too much Alvida and Morgan. I am talking about the First Chapter. Higuma isn't much, but he was necessary for buiding up Shanks at an incredible level. Likewise, Alvida and Captain Morgan were pretty much there for essential world building and "flat" villains to toss at the shounen crowd to whet their appetite. If you started with a big drama heavy villain at first, then you pretty much are setting yourself up too fast and might end up with setting the expectations too high at first. Likewise, kids want adventure when they first start reading the serie. Why not start with something simple before jumping into drama heavy Gin/Kreig/Mihawk and Arlong?
That way, you can still occasionally write simple stupid villains and get away with it while dropping in some heavy drama villains in the future (simply because you started with it first and set it up and saving your big guns for later).
Ok. Yeah. Thank god people noticed it. But yeah. This basically entirely describes Barrage.
I totally understand that the first chapter is a key difference, but yeah, the rest of it is pretty much copy-and-paste. (<–-Look at that hyperbole ) -
Bwahhahaahahaha. What are you even talking about? Why are you even bringing this up? This was never even a part of the discussion.
Yeah. I am not saying One Piece wasn't a success.
I KNOW IT WAS A SUCCESS.
The original question was if you think it would survive if it was barely started today.
My answer was no.
My reason was that it was mediocre.
That is my opinion.
It was a question asking about opinion.But apparently that is a wrong opinion to you. Because you know, we have to follow those opinion rules they taught us in school.
Bwhahahahaha.But seriously, this has been an opinion question the entire time. Is that really why you got all fact crazy. I mean, you have the capability to understand people have different opinions than you, and guess what, their opinion is true. And so is your's. That's what an opinion is. Something like mediocrity isn't a fact. No matter what hyperbole you want to use to make it seem so.
It seems you just learned this word "projection" in school recently, but you do realize that by judging others based on your opinions is projection correct? You are assuming and judging about Japanese children by saying this.
No, you're not having an opinion. Opinions are about your OWN view, not about assuming others' views.
I did not voice my opinion (well, other than calling short-living series shitty). I am entirely talking about FACTS. You know, like Maxy mentioned. NUMBERS. FIGURES. Not how I feel about One Piece.
I have a feeling you don't really know what "opinions" mean.1. What you are doing is ASSUMPTION based on your own personal opinion projected on others.
2. What I'm doing is ASSUMPTION based on cold hard figures, projected observation on others.I'm sorry if you still can't understand that, but all I can say is, you've been very hypocritical this entire conversation. Starting with acting like you're a victim of flame, when you actually started with thinly veiled labelings. I guess you don't know what passive-aggressive is. Dude, come at me with all your venom, but don't pretend to be a victim!
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Now this is entirely subjective, but I didn't find any of the characters in Buldge attractive or interesting, unlike Shanks and post-childhood Luffy.
Yeah, Luffy was awesome, and Astro was a bit of a goody goody, but not everybody can be Luffy
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Straw poll if anyone's interested: What'd be more interesting for me to talk about on FEV this august? It's a toss-up between Barrage/Oumagadoki Zoo and Bleach/Zombie Powder.
Guys guys guys. Opinions are like arseholes. They taste a bit bitter, but if you lick 'em maybe the person'll go all ahegao.
… Wait, I don't think I have this right.
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Pretty much my response to that. You don't just start with one of your good villains right at the start of your story. That's playing your cards too quickly (in particular, Arlong in this case which I think is the point where OP's popular really soared, but I can be mistaken). Besides, they mostly exist for world building purposes (it wasn't STRICTLY Luffy verses Alvida/Morgan, it was an opportunity to showcase some pirates, Coby (ugh…), Zoro, marines, etc...). Also he focuses on developing character as well while not having them overshadowed by the villains at the start. Therefore, the initial villains are suppose to be "flat and unmemorable" because they are merely foils for demonstrating what the protagonists are capable of (basically punching bags to show off the protagonists talents as someone capable).
Don't really want to get into the popularity debate, but I gotta disagree with this notion.
Nothing should be flat or unmemorable in a story. Or at least people shouldn't be writing anything in a story with that intent in mind. The characters in the story should serve a purpose and be interesting/fun to read about.
What I do agree with is that if you're writing the story in this way, the initial villains should allow your main character to show off, both in terms of skill and personality, but that doesn't mean make the villain boring by comparison. It's a question of choosing what's important at the beginning and what you want to show off in terms of skills and abilities as a storyteller. And whether the beginning of One Piece is amazing or not is entirely subjective and something I don't want to argue about.
That being said, I dunno if not starting off with your main villain/good villain right off the bat is a sign of a bad story. It's just something that I can't really name a super popular manga doing.
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@Maxy:
Straw poll if anyone's interested: What'd be more interesting for me to talk about on FEV this august? It's a toss-up between Barrage/Oumagadoki Zoo and Bleach/Zombie Powder.
Guys guys guys. Opinions are like arseholes. They taste a bit bitter, but if you lick 'em maybe the person'll go all ahegao.
… Wait, I don't think I have this right.
It's not an opinion though.
If one says "I think Maxy sleeps with his mom, because I sure do". That's not an opinion.
That's an assumption based on projecting your own upon another.I really hate when people try to weasel out by saying "it's just my opinion!!!!". I get that shit all the time.
Especially when they ignore facts and evidences, and think their "opinion" is going to cut the cake. -
His is an opinion, it's just been presented in a super leading way. And is quickly escalating into less of an opinion and more an impetus for conflict. I mean this'd literally be over ages ago if he'd just agreed to disagree and moved on.
I think it's fine to say that it's just an opinion, as long as that person is open to differing opinions, and accepts how that opinion doesn't affect reality.
God, where do I stand on this again?
(side-note: worrying example, but very par for you, so I applaud all the same)
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Quick little digression:
Is there an archive of ToCs from before 2000?
And any general archive of tankobun sale data? -
for me Bulge was too slow for WSJ. there was a build up in the first chapter but after that there was no real follow up that can make kids pump up and invested in it. there was no real exciting emphasized on the main character weapon at all. it feel underwhelming. then the main character always said "family" this, "family" that - he's forcing the element of family too much to attract readers attention without actually writing something really interesting based on it. its like reading fairy tail, "friendship" are shove into readers face. and if i am not mistaken, even in this forum people start to complain how lackluster the second chapter was.
about One Piece, 1st chapter was really good. but after that its not as good as the 1st one but it far better than Bulge's chapters. earlier chapter of One Piece was simple but its actually were done quite good. it had what WSJ readers like. off course people can say that it full of cliche, but Oda really did the right thing with it.
and I wonder if anybody ever predict "Ant Arc" from just reading the 1st chapter of HxH or Urameshi is a son of Demon King from 1st chapter of YYH.
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TOC yes: http://www.biwa.ne.jp/~starman/ it is not in english
Tank sales: no. -
Sweet, thanks.
And yea, figured tank data was a long shot.