@Hattori:
I'm actually going to cry. THIS IS A FICTIONAL WORLD, FOR GOD'S SAKE. IT'S A WORLD THAT GLORIFIES PIRATES. WHO CARES WHAT'S MORE BENEFICIAL IN REAL LIFE.
Sorry for making you cry, wasn't my intention. First statement, true. Second statement untrue, that fictional world rarely glorifies pirates, it considers pirates evil for the most part. All fictional societies in that fictional world are concerned with what is most beneficial to them, and it ain't piracy. What all those fictional communities primarily need aren't strong fighters, but social dialog, people who are competent in their job, rising children - things, that are needed in real World as well. Since we are out of East Blue most communities falls for mercy of the villain and need Luffy and the gang to rescue them not because of lack of strong fighter, but due to lack of social dialog.
Oda doesn't glorify pirates in his story, where they are mostly horrible villains, with notable exceptions of protagonist's group and their allies, so their portrayal in general neutral at best.
It doesn't matter what's more important. What matters is that you made horrible generalizations about the ambitions of an entire gender. Autumncomet laid it out in front of you as clear as day. You're better off conceding right now while you can still escape with your dignity. Or whatever's left of it. Actually I'm not even sure why you're still arguing, since you agreed that Oda is sexist.
gender is generalization itself. If we don't operate on generalizations we can't operate on abstracts. If we didn't have generalizations we'd drawn in stream of information.
I don't need that kind of dignity if I can learn something. I can be "bad" one. I'm arguing mainly, because I haven't seen argument that would satisfy me yet.
These are in no way, shape or form exclusive to a single gender. Stop this foolishness.
yes, that's what's to be need to point out, that's much more important issue, since also here we have lack of proportion in the manga.
THE STATISTIC ITSELF IS PART OF WHAT I'M CRITICIZING, HOLY SHIT.
yes, but instead of analyzing it and seeking the roots of it's form you are just condemning it.
Stating that it's sexist doesn't cut it. You have to show precisely what sexist idea stand behinds it, what are cultural sources of that idea, how it found it's way to the manga (why the author have chosen to express that idea, was he conscious of doing it or not). How it influences general view on gender. Why of all sexist ideas in his work you find this one or those few particularly fragrant and important to address.
They represent real world trends, but to the unfortunate extreme.
Oda tends to take things to extreme, don't he? That may not be good thing in some cases, but again that's different discussion
The fault lays in Oda's sexism. There, happy?
haven't I told you, that's not enough.
Just stop. You're embarrassing yourself here.
I have bigger issues here than my good name. Knowledge and understanding.
You've probably meant that I'm embarrassing myself by claiming that people of both gender have different sets acceptable means to obtain their goals. But that's obvious: different hierarchy of goals also assigns different means acceptable to fulfill each goal. Different cultural upbringing influence both goal and set of means to obtain each goal.
Sanji's dream is less ambitious than Zoro's.
how come Sanji's dream is less ambitious than Zoro's. It was Sanji, who used to be told there is no way of fulfilling that dream, not Zoro. There is also also no way of comparing how much work each of them needs to do in order to achieve that dream.
The lack of strong female fighters is part of the problem. You're just helping me make my point. Namely, that women in One Piece are relegated to the sidelines while the men take on all the heavy duty.
Yeah, but both genders work for future of society. There is Vivi, Gan Fall, Iceberg, Otiohime and many more of those who work for peace, freedom and wellbeing of whole communities - they are the true heroes in this series. Thats way more important that fighting. And thats area of human activity, that is depicted in the manga, that is also relevant to modern world.
Actually it's Oda's opinion against a cartoon character's.
Where did he stated that opinion? SBS, some interview? could you at least point me to direction where I should look for it?
Why it is important for each gender to have about equal number of strong fighters (I can trace back foundation of that notion at least to Bronze Age, maybe to paleolithic in some interpretations. I'm not asking because I don't know, I'm asking to check if you know what kind of idea is, where you get it from and if you are aware that it comes from mystification that was one of basis for denying rights to people for thousands of years. To be understood correctly: I'm asking you about meta narration you follow. You can omit part about equality, I believe majority of people understand that part and more or less where it comes from, I'd like you to explain the part about fighters- if you are good humanist and serious about you research you have to be aware in what way your society and you culture influences you).
Term "strong fighter" tells as hardly anything about people behind that label. If we assume, as you did, that strength as a fighter represents ones strength of will, then we only know that person has strong will, but we still don't know goals. It may be strong will to hurt or dominate others. So if A, whose goal are go to most beautiful place in the world, to paint picture of, it meets B whose goal is to tastes blood and they fight and B wins, it only meant that B has stronger will, however B isn't better person nor more interesting character than A. And I don't even believe in that initial assumption.
If you still want to argue that men in the One Piece world are naturally stronger than women then fine, even though there's no evidence to such a thing. However, gender has absolutely positively zero bearing on a character's POTENTIAL GROWTH. Women hold the potential to become just as strong as any man would be able to. I honestly can't believe you even disagree with this. Just look at Big Mom. She's one of the four strongest pirates in the entire goddamn world.
I'm going to ask you one last time. Did you really, really, really come out of the Kuina flashback thinking that she was right, and that she should quit because she could never become as strong as Zoro? If you can say yes to that with a straight face, then I'm done here. The only thing I would have left to tell you is that you should reevaluate your fundemental understandings of the series.
I've pointed evidences already.
Positively disagree that any factor of human constitution can't be having any influence on character growth. It can have both positive and negative effects on character. For example character being physically weak can have positive influence on character growth, with character aiming to overcome that weakness, but depending on characters aims it can have negative effects, as character may choose not to develop weak points and feel less worthwhile person due to that. However by choosing not to develop one feature, character may also choose to devote to developing other in witch the character can become prodigy.
Where the heck do I ever suggested that Kuina should quit?!!!t If I suggested that she should quit for having physical handicap of being women I would be very disrespectful for myself. I would never, and I mean never, achieve anything if I haven't choose to do things for witch I have some sort of handicap. I wouldn't be even able to learn how to read and wright in my native language, much less foreign one, to begin with. I'm actually much like Kuina, I've chosen to pursue dream, despite everyone telling me that I shouldn't as I'm too weak. I know how she felt, I know how she struggled. Saying that her apprehensions are groundless, as everything is solely based on ones will, is disrespectful to her, as she needed twice more effort to both pursue her dream with her handicap and resist people who believed she is not up to it during her handicap.
Who said anything of the sort?
You have negated the existence of obstacle.
The concept of haki, which has been around since chapter fucking 1, is entirely rooted in willpower. Luffy will achieve his dream because his willpower will overcome Blackbeard's. Zoro will achieve his dream because he wanted it hard enough. That's what it comes down to. People in One Piece achieve things because they want them hard enough. Accept this.
haki and physical strength are unrelated. By physical strength I understand strength of body, not every force that can overcome enemy.
I don't negate value of force of will (that's world Japanese comic after all), I only refuse to see it as only factor that needs to be considerate.
Oh my god this is priceless. I've barely focused on fighting power; that's just a single, small part of my argument that YOU chose to zone in on. Do you need to read my original post again? I'm only telling you why your arguments are wrong, and most of your arguments happen to zone in on strength for whatever reason. Because apparantly you couldn't comprehend the rest of my analysis. I shouldn't need to reiterate my other points because I already made them and you haven't even responded to them.
It's not the main issue, but it's part of the problem. Hence I said, and I quote, "It's part of what I'm criticizing." And anyway, you're the one who's making strength a bigger issue than it should be. I, on the other hand, was examining the role of women in the bigger picture.
you're either focusing on men fighting women, lack of female fighters and the fact men either refuse to fight women or double standard of fighting beautiful women and ugly ones.
There is nothing of characters as a people, about competences, taking active part in life, woman standing for themselves in non combatant context.
If you wish to analyze sexism you need to concentrate on every day content of characters social life and how both gender act in social situations.
Frankly it's not one of his rules because we've never seen normal people actually fighting in One Piece. You have nothing to base your statement on except for "that's how it is in real life."
and who would be those normal people? You mean people from different islands? People who didn't choose to become Marines or pirates?
There is nothing in One Piece that would suggest that sexual dimorphism works differently there or that communities have cultures of qualities unseen in modern or historical times.
I don't think you're stupid. I think you're capable enough to have deducted what I meant. Are you trying to prove me wrong?
I've been in many discussions that held looong, just because both parts understood terms differently. I also observe many such discussions. I'm also not a native English speaker, it's only natural for me to choose different meaning from universe of possible meanings, than native speaker would. If I'd come to think that you are understanding same term differently than I do, acting upon meaning I assumed you've assigned to the term without consulting may lead to farther misunderstanding.
When Plato had been writing defining terms, that were often unclear to disputants have been good portion of them, sometimes they haven even go beyond that. It's best tradition of humanistic to define terms.
I'm here to find out foundations of you thinking, my thinking, people in this thread thinking and Oda's thinking and I want to reveal those to all. Call me idiot, sexist, disrespectful, dumb, sad case, tell me that I don't understand. I don't care. I have my personal reasons to be here and discuss. I won't stop until I'm satisfied or until you stop responding.
So you concede that there's no way to know if the average man in the One Piece universe is stronger than the average woman. Thanks bud.
no I was only talking one particular individual that is Luffy, and possibilities that he would grew up differently if different factors influenced him while growing up.
Maybe the meaning you think you're saying, but not what you actually have written down. You've pulled this entire argument full circle.
some of my senescences, taken out of context may even contradict my general view as well as my statement.
Feel free to scold me, correct me, laugh at me, suggest any problems I have with my head, I'm used to it, I won't take an offense it won't lower my self esteem, you won't hurt me. Just please, please elaborate on you answers.
