Chapter 645: "Death Is Also Revenge"

[HTC]

@KaiPirinha:

C'mon people. There are far more important things to argue about. Let's forget about this.

On Topic: I didn't like Chopper's scene. I'm not talking about he managing to control the monster form. That was predictable. I'm talking about the way it was done. This is a big thing for Chopper and only two panels are not enough to satisfy me. It felt rushed and was kinda strange.

That's because we still have no clue what Oda intends Chopper to do with the transformation, which is why i agree with you, for now. I'll reserve my final judgment on this Chopper issue after the scene plays out.

[isrnick]

@gotta<3OP:

I'm not japanese, but I do think that it makessome sense the other way around.
I mean. Hodi is saying Luffy should be in pain from his bite. What would be the sense of him going: "Your endurance is better than +100.000.000 heads."
Its like a dialog:
A to B:"I put poison in your food, you should be dying"
B to A:"Your endurance to poison is over 9000, actually."

Or is it with the meaning:
"My haki punches aren't that weak either, your endurance is surely better than that of an 100.000.000 head" ?

If you are so sure its referring to Hodi, I believe you. But in context it makes sense both ways.

The point here is exactly the fact that he isn't saying "Your endurance is over the 100 mil bounty level", he is saying "His endurance is over the 100 mil bounty level" (even though there is no pronoun in the original sentence in Japanese, that is what the sentence implies the way it was written), in other words he is talking to himself (and simply ignoring anything Hody said), not giving an answer to Hodi…

[Juvar]

@brennen.exe:

Actually, I was "disagreeing with the contextual sense", but explaining will make more people cry.

LOL fair enough ignore what I said then. Just trying to clear the waters.

[igetownd]

@KaiPirinha:

C'mon people. There are far more important things to argue about. Let's forget about this.

On Topic: I didn't like Chopper's scene. I'm not talking about he managing to control the monster form. That was predictable. I'm talking about the way it was done. This is a big thing for Chopper and only two panels are not enough to satisfy me. It felt rushed and was kinda strange.

I think that's a big change for Chopper as well, but I understand that Oda's got a tight schedule to fit many new things into upcoming chapters. I think he knows readers are fed up with Fishman Island.

[Zik]

@thewonderer:

And how isn't it as good as all the other times?

It feels like an arc from the beginning of OP but just not as good as any of them.

Tell me one other work where first of all, it isn't the established african american/other minorities and whites, and second, the main antagonist is racist because its been ingrained in him. I, personally, have never seen that before. Theres always some cliche reason involved.

Are you asking for other mangas where the anatagonist is a racist because it's ingrained in him or fictional work in general? If you wanna confine in it to manga just to try and prove some type of point I'd laugh. If you think this is something new in comics I'd just say you need to read a whole lot more.

You gotta be daft to think this is something new because Oda's placed the issue of racism on fishmen/merfolk and humans instead of some other arbitrary distinction.

Hodi is a joke of a villain. It's not even pure racism, it's I grew up with a terrible childhood (due to the racism against my ppl), so I'll keep hating and killing until I've won and even kill my own kind cuz they don't agree with me. That's nothing new. It's a pitiful villain. You trying to say you never saw anything like this because of who Oda chose to do this with is you bitching over semantics.

Why does everyone get behind this opinion nonsense? I don't get it. The first time someone trys to discuss something, the other guy gets scared and calls opinion.

You don't get it. It is my opinion this arc just isn't that good. When did you ever attempt to discuss anything about my post? You replied sarcastically as if it is a given that this is an above average arc.

[BossJinbei]

This chapter was pretty awesome! Can't wait to see Jinbei and Sanji's attack

[sag d seb]

So we have a break, possibly meaning a turning point. I'm sure there is no coincidence because each time Oda plans a break (Obviously excluding emegencies and such) an important turning point appears in OP.

That being said, this chapter shone brightly but also fed my unwillingness to read another 3 chapters of Noah falling . I get that the ship is important and the potential peril it represents. I'm also aware there are plenty of character views to cover but please let the ship hit the Island, be destroyed or whatever just get done with it. As I see it FI is not half-finished and we've had one too many chapters dedicated to a sinking ship that will destroy an Island 10000 meter down on the oceanfloor (It sounds pretty cool though, not too many places can be destroyed by a sinking ship). That was my little rant but now lets see the pluses.

The Mugiwaras keep getting more badass and peculiar. Diversity-wise this crew sure raises the bar high.
Hody is one of those villains you wouldn't know what to do about if he doesn't end up dying . At this point he's pretty much unredeemable unless something ridiculously drastic happens, so, for his own sake let him die at the end, the poor guy needs a rest (permanently:ninja:).
I'm liking wadatsumi's stupidity, "Im gonna blow myself up as a balloon cause that makes me look scary"… sure.. "and I also deal with the enemy" well at least those were Hody's henchmen, slaves, army or...I'm not really sure how to call them, they change sides so easily poor fodder.
Shirley remembered the prediction image in one of those panels. I like the sexy shark-maiden and her premonition feat hopefully she'll get developed further later.
As so many people has mentioned if Noah turns out to be hiding something then once it is destroyed "whatever" or "whoever" was inside/captive could then roam free. Also I'm amused of not hearing the posibility of a devil fruit being safeguarded at the heart of Noah, why not?
Its good to have this many end looses around the arc, it gives us readers something to think about.

[rubia_ryu]

@igetownd:

I think that's a big change for Chopper as well, but I understand that Oda's got a tight schedule to fit many new things into upcoming chapters. I think he knows readers are fed up with Fishman Island.

It's not that we're fed up with Fishman Island. It's that we're excited for the New World; after all that hype for since the end of Water 7, we still haven't arrived.

But, yeah, this was my point when I casually mentioned that Oda seems to be rushing through this arc (without actually rushing through it; the man is a genius at his work).

[ponx]

About Chopper, a lot of people was saying that it felt weird because it was unnecessary, rushed, and whatnot. Well, I didn't mind it at all.

I mean Chopper controlling his Berserk Point is a natural progression for him, so we're bound to see it anyways. Oda just decided that it was better sooner than later

As a cliffhanger, well at least Oda doesn't think his readers are stupid. If Chopper was shown getting berserk and the chapters end, only to show us that he's conscious. Thats stupid. We all know he'll be able to control it after the TS, that much is obvious. So at least Oda didn't go the Kubo/Kishi way of making the obvious as a cliffhanger.

And about it being unnecessary. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the next chapter has sumtin like this:
Ussopp : Wow Chopper, thats amazing. u can control ur Berserk Point now??!! THATS AWESOME
Chopper : SHUDDUP!!!! (teeheee), thats not going to make me happy or anything (giggles in his Berserk Point)
Ussopp : …....wait a minute. There was no need to use Berserk Point...... U just want to show off don't u?
Chopper : Whaaaa????!!! N-n-n-NO!! Of course not. Who do u think I am??
Ussopp : THEN WHATS WITH THE "DAMNIT I GOT CAUGHT" LOOK ON UR FACE!!!!!

[StarlightMan]

I'm sure the anime will draw the scene out for 20 minutes.

[thewonderer]

@Zik:

It feels like an arc from the beginning of OP but just not as good as any of them.
Are you asking for other mangas where the anatagonist is a racist because it's ingrained in him or fictional work in general? If you wanna confine in it to manga just to try and prove some type of point I'd laugh. If you think this is something new in comics I'd just say you need to read a whole lot more.

You gotta be daft to think this is something new because Oda's placed the issue of racism on fishmen/merfolk and humans instead of some other arbitrary distinction.

Hodi is a joke of a villain. It's not even pure racism, it's I grew up with a terrible childhood (due to the racism against my ppl), so I'll keep hating and killing until I've won and even kill my own kind cuz they don't agree with me. That's nothing new. It's a pitiful villain. You trying to say you never saw anything like this because of who Oda chose to do this with is you bitching over semantics.
You don't get it. It is my opinion this arc just isn't that good. When did you ever attempt to discuss anything about my post? You replied sarcastically as if it is a given that this is an above average arc.

Ok, so why aren’t the arcs in the beginning of One Piece good? Could you see the series starting in a different more intriguing fashion? I’m just curious with this question

No I’m asking for ANY OTHER WORK where theres a complex racism structure going on, not the obvious historical black/white though. Then go, list these comics. And also although I wasn’t why would you laugh if I’d confine it to manga? That’s like saying oh this movie tackled the problem but a book wrote about it so it sucks. What?

I never said the idea of racism itself was new. I’m saying Odas structure, his ways around the arc are things I’ve never seen before. To tackle the situation in a long manga, that’s why One Piece is so great, each arc could literally pass for some other story.
I think the people who think he’s a joke are jokes (inception?). Pure racism is bland, that’s the point, IT ISN’T RACISM. That’s the shocking part. Can you really call it racism when he himself doesn’t have anything against the humans? I love how all this makes you think.

And that’s not why Hodi does it. It’s as simple as that’s what he learned, and that’s what hes going to do. Its like 12 year olds fighting in foreign country wars. That terrible childhood mechanic would be horrible by itself. Its clear Hodi grew up in a bad environment, but that itself never bothered him if you look into it. That’s entirely new, a great villain. He’s like the Joker, if you will. You are interpreting things in this arc completely wrong.

Fine, but that opinion is far from valid without the support. You obviously misinterpret and assume a lot. Its like you want to hate this arc. I replied sarcastically because you wrote it off without any justification at the time.

[Zik]

@thewonderer:

Ok, so why aren’t the arcs in the beginning of One Piece good?Could you see the series starting in a different more intriguing fashion? I’m just curious with this question

What? I don't understand why you are asking this. I said this current arc is like one the arcs in the beginning of the story but not as good as them. I'm saying the arcs in the beginning of the story are better than this current arc. Not what you asked.

No I’m asking for ANY OTHER WORK where theres a complex racism structure going on, not the obvious historical black/white though. Then go, list these comics. And also although I wasn’t why would you laugh if I’d confine it to manga? That’s like saying oh this movie tackled the problem but a book wrote about it so it sucks. What?

You've never heard of the X-Men (and every other X series comic)? It wreaks of racial undertones, literally. I'll actually try to compile a list of comics dealing with racism (that isn't about the color of your skin) and then comics with arcs dealing with racism and villains who are just pure racists for you though that are vastly better than Hodi. Just give me a while.

You can't seriously think authors who write fiction, especially comic book writers haven't used real world issues such as racism, hell especially racism and applied them to their works or created works inspired/based off them that isn't simply racism dealing with blacks and whites. Do you?

I never said the idea of racism itself was new. I’m saying Odas structure, his ways around the arc are things I’ve never seen before.

Like?

To tackle the situation in a long manga, that’s why One Piece is so great, each arc could literally pass for some other story.
I think the people who think he’s a joke are jokes (inception?).

The person I said who I think is a joke is Hodi not Oda. However, I see nothing great about how Oda's tackled the issue of racism in One Piece. If you want to handle it in it's most simplistic way, sure having nakama no matter what or who they are and the whole spiel about friendship triumphing over evil such as racism is the obvious but there's nothing new or special about how he's attempted to "tackle it"

You're trying to use the fact that this arc involved racism as a springboard to say hey look what Oda's doing with the story that I've never seen done before, how can anyone not think it's great? When going back to your sarcastic response that arc in it of itself just doesn't measure up to an arc like Alabasta or AP.

Pure racism is bland, that’s the point, IT ISN’T RACISM. That’s the shocking part. Can you really call it racism when he himself doesn’t have anything against the humans? I love how all this makes you think.

You're talking about two different things here. I see Hodi as a shitty villain for what you just said and what I've already talked about. He isn't even driven by racism, I mentioned this in my last post. He's just filled with hate. I think you're missing the fact that the fishmen/merfolk were the initial victims of racism and then they reacted, so you get guys like Arlong who adopt the polar opposite view of being better than humans. It's nothing eye opening there. It's not hard to follow. How is that making you think? A few chaps back it was outright stated by the Prince that Hodi is just a douche filled with hate, killing for that sake only. How does this motivation make him unique or a special villain? Like I said he's pitiful. Lets not forget this is a story aimed at children. I'd prefer a villain with an interesting back story, a smart villain not even a genius, just a guy cunning enough not to stumble through a fight while popping pills for support even if his motivation is hate and he just wants everyone to die.

And that’s not why Hodi does it. It’s as simple as that’s what he learned, and that’s what hes going to do. Its like 12 year olds fighting in foreign country wars. That terrible childhood mechanic would be horrible by itself. Its clear Hodi grew up in a bad environment, but that itself never bothered him if you look into it. That’s entirely new, a great villain. He’s like the Joker, if you will. You are interpreting things in this arc completely wrong.

WHOA did you just compare Hodi to the Joker? If you're talking motives that's where the comparisons stop. It's a shaky one at best given the Joker's past, if you're gonna be that lenient to make that type of comparison there's a bunch of villains who grew up being hateful that are outright better at being villains than Hodi. Nothing you just said in this quote makes Hodi a great villain. It's not simply a motive that makes them great. Look at how he's failed. Half the shit that has come to pass and that escalated to this point wasn't even planned by Hodi, he just went with it.

Be serious man. He went from enslave pirates and use them part of his army in a plan to take over the kingdom so he can send humans a message not to mess with fishmen island because he wanted to be the new ruler, to team up with Decken cuz he's just as much of a bastard as I am, to hey Decken wtf are you doing don't destroy the island I'm suppose to rule it, to pop some more pills, become more deranged and say fuck it I'll destroy the island the way Decken was going to just cuz hey my initial plan wasn't that good.

Lets not even get in to the weak reveal that he killed Otohime. It's almost like that was just added in there to further show at best Hodi is just a killer. Dude is the poor poor poor man's Arlong that needs drugs to be any sort of threat. I don't see how you can like the type of villain like Hodi but maybe that's just your taste and with that Joker comparison you possibly see a future for the guy or see something more in him as a villain.

Fine, but that opinion is far from valid without the support. You obviously misinterpret and assume a lot. Its like you want to hate this arc. I replied sarcastically because you wrote it off without any justification at the time.

You replied sarcastically because you assumed I had no support for my opinion. You assumed I wrote off this arc without justification. Everybody was calling this arc as AP pt 2 so much that they were predicting that there was a bigger badder villain with some substance waiting in the shadows that'd eventually reveal himself. At this point, you gotta chalk this arc up to Oda showcasing the crews new skills, getting past the insanely delayed stop at FI, and reintegrating the readers to OP in to an established routine after the timeskip with an issue they're all familiar with.

[Hisoga]

@thewonderor: Oda was just used racism as a theme and like he used to do with past arcs, this time also he never go deep to the matter. he just on the surface and keep it simple and maybe add some of what he about the matter into the story. and about this arc, right now after the whole thing is cleared, i think it is quite good but still lack compare to One Piece standard due to the execution in term of pacing for example, i always feel that Oda rush and skip thing to much and also cram up to many thing in one page and in dialogue, lack of maps and adventures. and so many waste of story and characters potential for example like we seen in the flashback.

@zik: I don't understand why a villain that was just filled with hate is a shitty villain? without his flashback, YES, to me Hody is a shitty villain..

[Satriya]

I personally like Hody as a villain. I think Oda is a genius to create his character.

Hody has no reason to hate human, but he is unable to not hate human.
This is real world situation. A part of us is prejudiced planted by our later generation. We don't have personal experience to hate certain people which have certain attributes (asian/white/black/muslim/catholic/jew/communist, etc.), but we cannot accept them anyhow.. It seems the fishman district are a place where the fishman outcast and criminals lives, therefore hate for humans really blooms there. It is like growing up with radical parents who brainwashed me with their hate. (It is happening out there)

Is it pointless to blow yourself up to kill certain people? Yes it is! But some people has done it. I was there. Those people were desperate, they want to make a point, make a meaning of their lives. Actually they see themselves as heroes. (Freedom fighter)

Hody "hate" is his meaning in life. As long as he hate human, he will rise again and again. That's why Luffy punching /kicking him all around and a certain defeat will not make him surrender, it will just drive him to the extreme. His body is broken, but not his will.

I can't wait how Oda will resolve this conflict. How Luffy will really "defeat" Hody, cause in a real world, killing all people who hate us will not bring peace, it will only bring more hate.
There can be no real peace without justice.

[rituel]

@Aohige_AP:

FFS.

He's not REPLYING to Hody, he's basically sighing and saying to himself "sheesh, this guy tanks like a supernova".

[rage]

THERE IS NO ROOM FOR DEBATE IN THIS.
IT'S 100% CLEAR AS FUCKING DAY WHAT IT WAS SAID.

You people wanna ignore what the original line says, and decide what makes sense in YOUR head, REGARDLESS OF WHAT IT FUCKING SAYS?
[/rage]

To hell with this crap, I'm out of here.

I you people refuse to listen to reason, and REFUSE to go find another Japanese One Piece reader, then fuck it.

Have it your way.

this actually makes sense to me cause luffy isnt the type to boast about himself or his endurance or whatever to his opponent so I think it makes good sense why he would be saying this because luffy would be expecting hodi to get knocked out after using his new move but he didnt.

I think many dont understand hodi as a villain because they have not experienced this inbred hate. For example I'm from India n I'm a hindu from the day I was born i was taught never to be friends with muslims not even talk to them every time I travelled with my parents in the car if there was a guy in the street who blocked us one of my parents would say "that guy HAS to be a muslim only muslims are annoying like that" thats how Hodi was brought up you can see that in the flash back. But this hate is ten thousand folds larger.

[Lazy Justice]

I don't think Hody is original, but he's original within the series, which is all that matters.

[gottalt3OP]

@isrnick:

The point here is exactly the fact that he isn't saying "Your endurance is over the 100 mil bounty level", he is saying "His endurance is over the 100 mil bounty level" (even though there is no pronoun in the original sentence in Japanese, that is what the sentence implies the way it was written), in other words he is talking to himself (and simply ignoring anything Hody said), not giving an answer to Hodi…

That makes sense. So Luffy just plain out ignored him, thats so Luffy. ^^

About this arc being bad, its hard to pleasure all, those who can pleasure the most win. Isn't that correct?
Everything Bik said sounded to me like something good. Pitfull villains is something you don't get much. Today all villains are affable and badass wannabe. Its my first time in a LOONG while to witness a villain who is bad for the sake of badness, no hidden reasons, no tragic past, nothing. Just a plain crazy guy with a selfrighteous atitude. And his speech is not in the "bad ass" category. Its not something made so people will think "Look he is cool!". He is shallow, is words are shallow. He talks and talks and talks, and never ever thinks he is on the wrong side. Its a bit more refreshing than a guy who just sits talking to look cool, saying "You're trying to beat me, uhh… Then do it. Its not like I care... As long as this hatred continues... I can die happy..." with a smile in his face. It might not make fun girls jump while fangasming (Damn, in my language there is such a more fitting expression for this.), but that does not mean he is a bad villain.
And its just awesome, how he talks and talks and Luffy just keeps on spanking him, not giving a fuck. Its like his beating on a tree. He punches and punches, comments on the sturdiness, and does not give a fuck.

Now if you would prefer an affable villain with a neat and sad past, and an hidden motive, I'm ok with that, but I'm tired of those kinds of villains, we already have Crocodile and Don Flamingo for that. Lets have a few psycotic son of a bitches addicted in hatred.

[Hisoga]

@gotta<3OP:

That makes sense. So Luffy just plain out ignored him, thats so Luffy. ^^

About this arc being bad, its hard to pleasure all, those who can pleasure the most win. Isn't that correct?
Everything Bik said sounded to me like something good. Pitfull villains is something you don't get much. Today all villains are affable and badass wannabe. Its my first time in a LOONG while to witness a villain who is bad for the sake of badness, no hidden reasons, no tragic past, nothing. Just a plain crazy guy with a selfrighteous atitude. And his speech is not in the "bad ass" category. Its not something made so people will think "Look he is cool!". He is shallow, is words are shallow. He talks and talks and talks, and never ever thinks he is on the wrong side. Its a bit more refreshing than a guy who just sits talking to look cool, saying "You're trying to beat me, uhh… Then do it. Its not like I care... As long as this hatred continues... I can die happy..." with a smile in his face. It might not make fun girls jump while fangasming (Damn, in my language there is such a more fitting expression for this.), but that does not mean he is a bad villain.
And its just awesome, how he talks and talks and Luffy just keeps on spanking him, not giving a fuck. Its like his beating on a tree. He punches and punches, comments on the sturdiness, and does not give a fuck.

Now if you would prefer an affable villain with a neat and sad past, and an hidden motive, I'm ok with that, but I'm tired of those kinds of villains, we already have Crocodile and Don Flamingo for that. Lets have a few psycotic sun of a bitches addicted in hatred.

your post is awesome..

[churlyryan]

This is going to go on for the rest of the break, isn't it?

[igetownd]

@churlyryan:

This is going to go on for the rest of the break, isn't it?

And it isn't even a true break. It's just One Piece taking its turn to be omitted from the line-up.

[rubia_ryu]

@churlyryan:

This is going to go on for the rest of the break, isn't it?

Were you around for the entire month break that OP took before the skip? Ironically, the month skip gradually smoothed out enough that overall it wasn't as bad as other 1 or 2-week breaks, since most forum-goers left. The ones that stayed, including me damn you wasted youth, were among the more peaceful ones. In short, it was more boring than it is now. I actually enjoy reading posts of some people who think they're so brilliant to come up with such… theories.

[Zik]

@Hisoga:

@zik: I don't understand why a villain that was just filled with hate is a shitty villain? without his flashback, YES, to me Hody is a shitty villain..

When I say shitty I'm not putting him on the level of say someone comical like Wapol was. I'm just comparing to past OP villains. After Arlong you'd think returning to this issue and finally coming to Gyojin island finally we'd get something a bit more in a villain. Not to mention after the timeskip and going in to the NW. This whole arc just feels like a lull to me because of the main villain and the red herrings in Decken and that logia user (forgot his name). His flashback doesn't mean much after what we've learned but that's just how I feel about it.

Given the topic and the history in the real world, there's a lot better kinds of villains Oda could have generated for it. I just feel like this was one of those stops where the arc needed a villain so Hodi was put in to fill a role and then move on.

[isrnick]

Cnet 's translation is out:
http://mangahelpers.com/t/cnet128/releases/32122

And here is how he translated that part of the chapter:

@Cnet:

Hody: These fangs of mine ain't just for show, Straw Hat… / You must be feeling their sting...!!!
Luffy: He's a crazy tough one, all right...

As we all can see his translation agrees with Aohige's translation… :)

[gottalt3OP]

why do they avoid the 100,000,000 part. I don't get it :/. Its sounds much better.

[rubia_ryu]

The last panel sounds so much better in Japanese, reading right to left. First: "One Piece will be on break next week. Chapter 645, end."

Chopper: "Hehehe, Don't worry Usopp!"
Usopp: "HUH!?"
Insert text: "Why…!?"

I'd like to know too. Why, Shueisha!? :ninja:

[thewonderer]

@Zik:

What? I don't understand why you are asking this. I said this current arc is like one the arcs in the beginning of the story but not as good as them. I'm saying the arcs in the beginning of the story are better than this current arc. Not what you asked.

You've never heard of the X-Men (and every other X series comic)? It wreaks of racial undertones, literally. I'll actually try to compile a list of comics dealing with racism (that isn't about the color of your skin) and then comics with arcs dealing with racism and villains who are just pure racists for you though that are vastly better than Hodi. Just give me a while.

You can't seriously think authors who write fiction, especially comic book writers haven't used real world issues such as racism, hell especially racism and applied them to their works or created works inspired/based off them that isn't simply racism dealing with blacks and whites. Do you?.

Why is this arc worse than the beginning arcs then?

Woah touché, but is the racism itself really ever an enemy? I mean you could say Magneto and the government itself but that’s kinda cliché and its done completely different than how Oda did it here. Magneto hates humans for the cliché reason of a sad past. Good example but its not how Oda does it. Please do, but I would like to note if it takes you awhile then they can’t be very prominent.

I already said racism itself was nothing new. The comics that deal with racism entirely substitute blacks and whites with nothing new so its no better or more unique at all. For example, theres no added twist to it.

@Zik:

Like?

Like Hodi doing this because its what hes learned, period

The idea that even the purest aren’t pure (Fukaboshi is racist). This actually has been explored before, but not that much to my knowledge. The fact that he couldn’t accept humans even at his mothers deathbed is something I’ve never seen. Most works go for the cliché, its so meaningful it’ll definitely work

A character that’s notorious for his mind, not strength. Brilliant and incredible contrast by Oda. Who better opposite than a physically souped up Luffy than a mind opponent. This is new TO ONE PIECE, hence why I compare Hodi to the Joker who every Batman fan seems to love

The complete lack of disrespect towards an influence. Heres Arlong, the man who taught Hodi all he knew and Hodi calls him pathetic for failing.
Fisher Tigers Death. The sham, the failure. No need to go into this one, incredibly unique and well done

Complete ignoring by the higher ups about the more desolate locations in the island. Very amazing likeness to the real world

I could go on bro

@Zik:

The person I said who I think is a joke is Hodi not Oda. However, I see nothing great about how Oda's tackled the issue of racism in One Piece. If you want to handle it in it's most simplistic way, sure having nakama no matter what or who they are and the whole spiel about friendship triumphing over evil such as racism is the obvious but there's nothing new or special about how he's attempted to "tackle it"

You're trying to use the fact that this arc involved racism as a springboard to say hey look what Oda's doing with the story that I've never seen done before, how can anyone not think it's great? When going back to your sarcastic response that arc in it of itself just doesn't measure up to an arc like Alabasta or AP.

If you see nothing special with how Oda handled it than please list works like it, countering my unique points above

….Really its not even the fact that its specifically racism, I just love the fact that Oda has so many ideas to churn out and show his fans what he thinks about. I truly do think “how can anyone not think that’s great” Why? Because I disagree, this arc is on level with Skypeia and Alasbata, easily. If you aren’t a One Piece fan, then fine I can see why you dislike this but coming from someone who has seen Alabasta and Skypeia and enjoyed them , I can’t see how this is different (in the sense that its oda quality amazing)

@Zik:

You're talking about two different things here. I see Hodi as a shitty villain for what you just said and what I've already talked about. He isn't even driven by racism, I mentioned this in my last post. He's just filled with hate. I think you're missing the fact that the fishmen/merfolk were the initial victims of racism and then they reacted, so you get guys like Arlong who adopt the polar opposite view of being better than humans. It's nothing eye opening there. It's not hard to follow. How is that making you think? A few chaps back it was outright stated by the Prince that Hodi is just a douche filled with hate, killing for that sake only. How does this motivation make him unique or a special villain? Like I said he's pitiful. Lets not forget this is a story aimed at children. I'd prefer a villain with an interesting back story, a smart villain not even a genius, just a guy cunning enough not to stumble through a fight while popping pills for support even if his motivation is hate and he just wants everyone to die.

Wait wait wait, you hate Hodi for being a complete asshole? How does that make him a bad villain? Your definition makes no sense. It makes him unique. If unique = bad for you, then ok I get it. Is that it?

No again you got it wrong HE doesn’t hate anyone. Its as simple as we’re better, you deserve to kneel before us. LOL yeah of course its not eye opening to you when you get it wrong. Its eye opening cause this isn’t racism at all. Its just sick genocide for the hell of it. That’s why its such a great revelation. Why do the truly evil serial killers in the world kill? For the fun of it, and that my friend is scary as hell, at least to me.

Pitiful is usually a trait associated with a good villain. So you’re saying Hodi is a bad villain because he kills for no purpose? My friend that is why HE’S SUCH A GREAT VILLAIN. Theres no cliché purpose there bro! He’s just a sick maniac. Who would you fear more, a killer after you who just wants your money, or a killer that won’t stop until you die regardless of what you do? I think that’s obvious

The interesting back story has been done to death. That’s why this is so unique, theres no reason behind it he’s just a sick freak. Hodi is smart and I don’t understand your definition of drugs as pathetic. I sure do think in real life anyone who does drugs is a loser but every “cool kid” at my school, at least, has done drugs. So you call him a pathetic villain when its usually these druggies in real life partaking in bad things? Luffy spammed constant gear second and Ivankov healing at marineford, does that make him unlikable?. No probably is your answer. Why? Because he has a nobel cause? BS bro, theres barely any difference here

@Zik:

WHOA did you just compare Hodi to the Joker? If you're talking motives that's where the comparisons stop. It's a shaky one at best given the Joker's past, if you're gonna be that lenient to make that type of comparison there's a bunch of villains who grew up being hateful that are outright better at being villains than Hodi. Nothing you just said in this quote makes Hodi a great villain. It's not simply a motive that makes them great. Look at how he's failed. Half the shit that has come to pass and that escalated to this point wasn't even planned by Hodi, he just went with it.

U mad bro? The Joker HAS NO past so I have no idea what you’re talking about. Everything I’ve said makes him a great villain, whether you think so or not. You can think he isn’t, but development, stance, uniqueness in comparison makes him one. The Joker fails all the time and could get his ass handed by Batman in an instant if physically brawling. Hes liked because he’s killed. Hodi killed the queen, attacked all of these innocent citizens. I fail to see your definition of failed. Hodi would have easily taken the island if Luffy had not been there. By your logic, every villain has failed in the past. They have against Luffy but that didn’t make them bad villains.

@Zik:

Be serious man. He went from enslave pirates and use them part of his army in a plan to take over the kingdom so he can send humans a message not to mess with fishmen island because he wanted to be the new ruler, to team up with Decken cuz he's just as much of a bastard as I am, to hey Decken wtf are you doing don't destroy the island I'm suppose to rule it, to pop some more pills, become more deranged and say fuck it I'll destroy the island the way Decken was going to just cuz hey my initial plan wasn't that good.

@Zik:

Lets not even get in to the weak reveal that he killed Otohime. It's almost like that was just added in there to further show at best Hodi is just a killer. Dude is the poor poor poor man's Arlong that needs drugs to be any sort of threat. I don't see how you can like the type of villain like Hodi but maybe that's just your taste and with that Joker comparison you possibly see a future for the guy or see something more in him as a villain. .

His original plan was to send a message that fishmen were gaining back bones and were going to rise and kill everyone out there. Kinda like the Joker in TDK, killing people to show Batman that he’s the reason such villains exist. Hodi’s killing humans to show the world that these fishmen exist because of them. He never wanted to be the new ruler. He wanted to team up with Decken solely for the fact that the mission would go more smooth that way. Again he never wanted to rule the island, and he decided to destroy the island after losing to Luffy. His original plan couldn’t move forward so he pretty cunningly thought up a way to kill Luffy and his friends on the spot. Pretty great story progression. His intentions are and always were to kill humans in the world, period. He wanted to destroy fishmen island solely to do away with Luffy. Later on, as he realized Luffy was way stronger, he just wanted to kill everyone he could and make him as miserable as possible for ruining his plans. Hodi’s plans stay consistent, he just had to kept settling for lower and lower as that’s all he could afford.

Weak how? No it wasn’t. Malcolm X was killed by black people. Great homage to that moment. What the hell is with you and the fact that he uses drugs? Why does that fact alone make him a bad villain? GREAT villains use anything they can do anything they can and heres Hodi doing whatever he can to do whatever he can. Its like calling crack addicts in the real world bad at being in poverty.

The Joker comparison is not referring to any lasting status or huge mangawide role at all. I don’t see why you dislike Hodi likewise.

@Zik:

You replied sarcastically because you assumed I had no support for my opinion. You assumed I wrote off this arc without justification. Everybody was calling this arc as AP pt 2 so much that they were predicting that there was a bigger badder villain with some substance waiting in the shadows that'd eventually reveal himself. At this point, you gotta chalk this arc up to Oda showcasing the crews new skills, getting past the insanely delayed stop at FI, and reintegrating the readers to OP in to an established routine after the timeskip with an issue they're all familiar with.

Yup and I was right, you do have no support. Its funny as your support actually proves that he’s a pretty good villain. I never did that, I think only ignorant fools would do that. I mean has that ever happened before in One Piece? Kumas role in TB doesn’t substitute Morias main villain status there. Theres always been a clear main villain almost every arc. People solely hated Hodi for the fact that he has no status in the world, unlike other villains. If this manga was in the POV of crocodile and we met Luffy as we did on the other side, everyone would probably hate him as at the time he was mostly a nobody in alabasta. I “chalk” this up to Oda for the new skills, great story telling, and great introduction to the soul of OP
Delayed stop? You mean the great sense of adventure and spontaneity? Wow so an incredibly risky journey underwater should have conveniently gone completely smooth?

[Aaronrules380]

@Zik:

Hodi is a joke of a villain. It's not even pure racism, it's I grew up with a terrible childhood (due to the racism against my ppl), so I'll keep hating and killing until I've won and even kill my own kind cuz they don't agree with me. That's nothing new. It's a pitiful villain. You trying to say you never saw anything like this because of who Oda chose to do this with is you bitching over semantics.
.

Except is hating is entirely based around the idea of racial superiority. Or would you argue the KKK was not a racist group because they went after white republicans as well as blacks in their quest for racial superiority. Not to mention a shit ton of racism in real life isn't caused by personal injustice, its caused by environment. Hody's environment probably wasn't the best, but that was never the reason he hated humans. He hated humans because people kept drilling it into his heads that that's what he should do, and that that was important, and that affected his mindset. Yes he's filled with hate, but the whole point is that the hate was caused by racial tensions in his environment, and NOT that he was just a naturally hateful person

[Baou Zakurga]

@Zik:

.

Lets not even get in to the weak reveal that he killed Otohime. It's almost like that was just added in there to further show at best Hodi is just a killer. Dude is the poor poor poor man's Arlong that needs drugs to be any sort of threat. I don't see how you can like the type of villain like Hodi but maybe that's just your taste and with that Joker comparison you possibly see a future for the guy or see something more in him as a villain.
You replied sarcastically because you assumed I had no support for my opinion. You assumed I wrote off this arc without justification. Everybody was calling this arc as AP pt 2 so much that they were predicting that there was a bigger badder villain with some substance waiting in the shadows that'd eventually reveal himself. At this point, you gotta chalk this arc up to Oda showcasing the crews new skills, getting past the insanely delayed stop at FI, and reintegrating the readers to OP in to an established routine after the timeskip with an issue they're all familiar with.

If that's how you see this arc,then there's no hope for you.I liked that this arc wasn't the typical "every villain gets stronger as the series progresses" routine.Because that's not how it works in the real world,and that's why Oda is great.God forbid that the StrawHats don't have to push themselves to the limit at every fight.It's cool that they are showing that they can toy with their enemies and pretty much chill.And so what if they aren't fighting a Shich or some other WG place/enemies.

And Oda created this amazing undersea world/culture.The people look awesome,the environment,the way of life.Makes me think of Skypiea/Water 7

[brennen.exe]

@isrnick:

As we all can see his translation agrees with Aohige's translation… :)

Hahaha, for the last time, nobody was arguing with the translation. All anyone– read: me, brennen-- was saying, was that the context of that scene-- read: the circumstances that are relevant to the event-- is the damage that was done to Luffy. Luffy begins Gear 3rd, Hody comments on the damage to Luffy's shoulder, Luffy's wound opens, Luffy remarks on the damage, Luffy attacks, his wound breaks open more, and then Shirahoshi worries about the damage. My argument was that contextually it made no sense for Luffy to ignore Hody in the middle of that and arbitrarily comment on Hody's durability/defense. My suggestion was that perhaps Oda slipped on the grammar, but mainly I was trying to point out that the context revolved around Luffy's wound, and therefore his remark should be in reference to that. If anything, CNET's translation agrees with my ultimate point, as "he's a crazy tough one, alright" would be referring to the how powerful Hody's teeth were. Basically, Luffy isn't ignoring and making an arbitrary comment, he's responding, if to himself, that Hody is right about the damage to his shoulder.

I brought this up, and continued to argue it, because I think the context is semi-important to the chapter. Oda emphasized multiple times via SFX and artwork (and dialog) that Luffy took some pretty bad damage from Hody, and typically he doesn't emphasize that stuff for nothing. Perhaps it is a weak attempt to lead in to a blood transfusion, perhaps Oda is reminding that Luffy still has room to grow, perhaps something else entirely. Point is, Luffy's hurting over the wound, and Oda's didn't want us to overlook that.

[Baou Zakurga]

^^^ he's also wincing in pain

[brennen.exe]

Yeah, that's why I chose that panel. The other panels just show blood spurting out, no wincing.

[Hisoga]

No Brennen.. you are still wrong this time.. if it was me in Luffy pplace at that time in that condition i will said/comment something in that line too(comething about how tough Hody is) and ignoring whatever happen around me because of how many time Luffy punch Hody to the ground but that guy still keep coming back and even after taking full of luffy new special attack(red hawk) that Luffy activated/used after Luffy declared that he will end Hody and FI conflict in the previous chapter..

[rubia_ryu]

Brennen, no one's saying that you're arguing about the translation. This discussion just started to confuse some about what the translations are supposed to be, and Cnet's is clarifying. Now that it's settled, can we move on to talking about other things? like what would happen if two Southbirds tried to mate instead

Edit: OH FOR THE LOVE OF-

Edit 2: Luffy's just surprised that with all the attacks using Gear 2nd or Buso-haki he's dealt on Hody, the guy still is coming back. (Granted, he kept popping ES pills to help, and several of Luffy's attacks were underwater.) The real reason Luffy's wounds are highlighted is more to show how resistant an opponent Hody has been, rather than to say that Luffy's having a lot of trouble, or that he's badly hurt. (He's had more trouble with getting a proper place to fight while in the waters.) As earlier mentioned, Luffy's remarks follow a progression of him having underestimated Hody. This fight has become more annoying than anything for him, so he opted for overkill as a final move.

[brennen.exe]

@Hisoga:

No Brennen.. you are still wrong this time.. if it was me in Luffy pplace at that time in that condition i will said/comment something in that line too.

Too bad, because that's not a valid argument.

[Zik]

@thewonderer:

Why is this arc worse than the beginning arcs then?

I feel this arc's villain just wasn't up to par to past villains. I've already previously stated what I felt what Oda was showcasing with this arc as it went on. I'd also add much needed back story was provided or aforementioned characters. The arcs in the beginning imo have better stories and villains. To specifically compare it to AP, it shows the lengths Arlong went to for revenge.

Woah touché, but is the racism itself really ever an enemy?

Yes you dumbass. Graydon Creed, Simon Trask, Bolivar Trask, Bastion, etc. There's so many groups in the X-Men who's soul cause is based on their racist hatred towards mutants it's ridiculous. I mean this comic has been running for like 40 years now and ignoring that they had to update the environment to fit current times, ppl still are racist towards mutants.

I mean you could say Magneto and the government itself but that’s kinda cliché and its done completely different than how Oda did it here.

It's not done different. Oda has some of a persecuted group/victims of racism lash out against humans for various reasons, some change over time (Jinbe, Hachi) and some don't(Arlong), some are just born in the era of hatred and are fueled by that alone (Hodi). All of that is in the X-Men. The Morlocks are a group shunned by humanity (to the point they live in the sewers of NYC) which produce characters like Marrow who hate humans and to an extended point dislike other mutants that can pass for human on the surface. There's a grip of mutant terrorist groups killing ppl like the MLF and Friends of humanity(also a political group). At this point, the comic is basically the blueprint for other comics injecting racial undertones, setting up whole themes of racism in action adventure comics. If you seriously are trying to bring this to a comparison towards the X-Men you've already lost. Just say you don't read it and I can understand how you're amazed at what Oda's doing with fishmen/merfolk.

Magneto hates humans for the cliché reason of a sad past. Good example but its not how Oda does it. Please do, but I would like to note if it takes you awhile then they can’t be very prominent.

You asked for an example I gave you one. Now you're asking for a villain that is just filled with hate? Is that what you're asking for? Is that what you're considering unique and/or special?

I already said racism itself was nothing new. The comics that deal with racism entirely substitute blacks and whites with nothing new so its no better or more unique at all. For example, theres no added twist to it.

You can say that's exactly what Oda's done. What added twist has he implemented?

Like Hodi doing this because its what hes learned, period

I do not understand the fascination with this. That premise is not new. It's new for OP but it's not new. I don't know why you haven't come across a fictional character that is a villain simply because that's how he grew up.

The idea that even the purest aren’t pure (Fukaboshi is racist). This actually has been explored before, but not that much to my knowledge. The fact that he couldn’t accept humans even at his mothers deathbed is something I’ve never seen. Most works go for the cliché, its so meaningful it’ll definitely work

Again are you talking about OP or in general with other fictional works?

The purest that are not that pure has not been explored that much?

A character that’s notorious for his mind, not strength. Brilliant and incredible contrast by Oda. Who better opposite than a physically souped up Luffy than a mind opponent. This is new TO ONE PIECE, hence why I compare Hodi to the Joker who every Batman fan seems to love

So because Hodi uses his strength instead of his mind he is a good/unique villain and that's why you compared him to the Joker? I don't understand that. I thought you were comparing the Joker to Hodi because of them being evil for the sake of it/that's all they know not because Hodi doesn't use his mind enough.

The complete lack of disrespect towards an influence. Heres Arlong, the man who taught Hodi all he knew and Hodi calls him pathetic for failing. Fisher Tigers Death. The sham, the failure. No need to go into this one, incredibly unique and well done. Complete ignoring by the higher ups about the more desolate locations in the island. Very amazing likeness to the real world

You've never seen a character or a villain disrespect his teachers/bosses/master/sensei or a person they once thought of as a role model?

I could go on bro

It's occurred to me that apparently there's a lot you haven't seen before in a comic.

If you see nothing special with how Oda handled it than please list works like it, countering my unique points above

Okay, "the purest aren’t pure" or that pure is what I think you meant, strength instead of smarts, and disrespecting those that have influenced you. I'd say read Berserk, Gantz, limited edition Juggernaut comics, Monster, Hellsing, Devilman, Shamo, AIKI, Full Metal Alchemist. Start with these, I hope you'll be able to identify the "unique" points you've mentioned. You'll even see better villains than Hodi with similar motives.

….Really its not even the fact that its specifically racism, I just love the fact that Oda has so many ideas to churn out and show his fans what he thinks about. I truly do think “how can anyone not think that’s great” Why? Because I disagree, this arc is on level with Skypeia and Alasbata, easily. If you aren’t a One Piece fan, then fine I can see why you dislike this but coming from someone who has seen Alabasta and Skypeia and enjoyed them, I can’t see how this is different (in the sense that its oda quality amazing)

As an OP fan, this arc feels like a lull as I've already said. I am not amazed by what Oda's produced with this villain or the main conflict in the arc.

Wait wait wait, you hate Hodi for being a complete asshole? How does that make him a bad villain? Your definition makes no sense. It makes him unique. If unique = bad for you, then ok I get it. Is that it?

No it doesn't make him unique if I've seen it before. You keep talking about cliche motives or character traits but boring is not better.

No again you got it wrong HE doesn’t hate anyone. Its as simple as we’re better, you deserve to kneel before us. LOL yeah of course its not eye opening to you when you get it wrong. Its eye opening cause this isn’t racism at all. Its just sick genocide for the hell of it. That’s why its such a great revelation. Why do the truly evil serial killers in the world kill? For the fun of it, and that my friend is scary as hell, at least to me.

So now you're saying Hodi is about opressing the weak? I already said in that quote "He isn't even driven by racism, I mentioned this in my last post." This is I think the second time I've said that so you could understand the context. If you're gonna say Hodi has no hate in him and is now only driven by the idea that he's better than everybody else so they should kneel before him makes me think you haven't been reading. Hodi grew up in an enviornment where his own ppl were persecuted for being born the way they were. Arlong filled his head with a hateful perspective.

Pitiful is usually a trait associated with a good villain.

No it is not but maybe you don't understand in what context I'm using the word.

So you’re saying Hodi is a bad villain because he kills for no purpose? My friend that is why HE’S SUCH A GREAT VILLAIN.

What is so interesting about a character that simply kills for no purpose. I've seen that with guys like Cletus Cassidy. Killing for no purpose does not make a character a great villain.

Theres no cliché purpose there bro! He’s just a sick maniac. Who would you fear more, a killer after you who just wants your money, or a killer that won’t stop until you die regardless of what you do? I think that’s obvious

I'm not strictly looking at the fear factor in villains.

The interesting back story has been done to death.

And when done well they continue to impress.

That’s why this is so unique, theres no reason behind it he’s just a sick freak.

That is not unique imo.

Hodi is smart and I don’t understand your definition of drugs as pathetic. sure do think in real life anyone who does drugs is a loser but every “cool kid” at my school, at least, has done drugs. So you call him a pathetic villain when its usually these druggies in real life partaking in bad things?

The pills are Hodi's main crutch. It's the reason he's even gotten this far. It's been the plot device to keep the villain in the story from the start. If you're saying he's smart because he takes the pills, fine but without them he's henchmen status. I like my villains to have substance, Hodi lacks it. A villain that kills for no purpose or reasons like "I'm better than you so kneel before me" just aren't that interesting to me. I don't see them as great. If you're really comparing Hodi to the Joker in those regards Oda simply didn't do a good enough job in selling Hodi. He seems like the impatient brat that wanted to join the fray and when he gets the chance all of his influences are dead or in prison so he's so desperate to have a legacy or succeed where they failed he uses drugs to reach that goal and eventually goes off the deep end.

Luffy spammed constant gear second and Ivankov healing at marineford, does that make him unlikable?. No probably is your answer. Why? Because he has a nobel cause? BS bro, theres barely any difference here

You're comparing gear 2 to deus ex machina pills? Luffy was going all out during the war, what are you suggesting that he should've done? Yeah Ivankov spammed his healing ability at key moments to keep the story flowing while having it still be Luffy maxed out in the war, what does that have to do with him being likable? I mean hell even if I hated that, guess what in the end Luffy failed to save his brother, so technically if you're seriously comparing power enhancing drugs to gear 2 and Iva's ability they both lost in the end.

Villains that heavily rely on drugs that'll make them go insane or eventually push them beyond their limits are the cheapest kinds. Their downfalls are so transparent. It's like the villain with anger issues, they're ticking time bombs. I don't see that as likeable traits.

Everything I’ve said makes him a great villain, whether you think so or not. You can think he isn’t, but development, stance, uniqueness in comparison makes him one.

Are you talking about Hodi or the Joker here? I am not in any way talking about the Joker not being a good/great villain in that quote. If you think I'm talking about the Joker I suggest you reread. Now if you're talking about Hodi what development? Didn't you just say he kills with no purpose and his motive is he's better than them so they should kneel before him? What development? He has no uniqueness.

The Joker fails all the time and could get his ass handed by Batman in an instant if physically brawling. Hes liked because he’s killed.

Not even just cuz he kills. The Joker is loved because dude is an evil genius and I don't mean Dr. Doom evil genius where scientific knowledge is heavily relied on. The Joker's plans and schemes in classic Batman comics are usually successful. He's tortured Robin (all 3), Batgirl, etc. He's constantly pushing Batman to his limits and all the while he is doing it all for the laughs. The Joker is written immensly better than Hodi from his inception to his most recent evil plan.

Hodi killed the queen, attacked all of these innocent citizens. I fail to see your definition of failed. Hodi would have easily taken the island if Luffy had not been there. By your logic, every villain has failed in the past. They have against Luffy but that didn’t make them bad villains.

When I say fail, I'm talking about this current arc, not a reveal in a flashback that happened decades ago. You're adding the queen's death as if anyone is contesting that like someone was there to stop him. How did Hodi not fail and continue to change his plans every time he did this arc? His end goal was not attack innocent citizens. What do you mean by my logic? Most of the villains in OP have failed, that's a fact.

His original plan was to send a message that fishmen were gaining back bones and were going to rise and kill everyone out there. Kinda like the Joker in TDK, killing people to show Batman that he’s the reason such villains exist.

How is that similar? Fishmen are victims of racism. Some humans see them just as fish or wild animals. Hodi wanted to send a message that the ppl of FI were not to be messed with. How is that similar to the Joker "killing people to show Batman that he’s the reason such villains exist." The Joker in TDK is all about anarchy. The whole "Some men just want to see the world burn" IS the Joker. Joker is portrayed as a chaotic villain in TDK. That's why he burned the money, that's why he set up the bomb situation with the prisoners and citizens of Gotham. He also wanted to prove Batman's faith in the ppl of Gotham wrong. Hodi started off with wanting to make a name for fishmen to cause humans to fear them. A dozen pills later Fukaboshi says he knows what Hodi is and he's just hate filled bastard that doesn't care and now Hodi wants to destroy the entire island. I don't know how you can compare Hodi to the Joker when we all know where the Joker stands as a villain. Hodi on the other hand started off one with a cause and his mind has progressively deteriorated to the point he's trying to justify any of his actions because that's what he's learned. He went from I'm taking up for Arlong's legacy to he was weak cuz he failed.

Hodi’s killing humans to show the world that these fishmen exist because of them. He never wanted to be the new ruler. He wanted to team up with Decken solely for the fact that the mission would go more smooth that way. Again he never wanted to rule the island, and he decided to destroy the island after losing to Luffy. His original plan couldn’t move forward so he pretty cunningly thought up a way to kill Luffy and his friends on the spot. Pretty great story progression. His intentions are and always were to kill humans in the world, period. He wanted to destroy fishmen island solely to do away with Luffy. Later on, as he realized Luffy was way stronger, he just wanted to kill everyone he could and make him as miserable as possible for ruining his plans. Hodi’s plans stay consistent, he just had to kept settling for lower and lower as that’s all he could afford.

LAWLS @ cunningly changed his plan. It wasn't even his plan. Yeah he didn't want to rule the island he just wanted to take over because he saw the king and the rest of the kingdom as weak. He wanted to take over the island to further continue his original goal of making humans fear fishmen. He failed and then hijacked Decken's threat to destroy the island once he realized the rest of the citizens weren't going over to his side of thinking.

What the hell is with you and the fact that he uses drugs? Why does that fact alone make him a bad villain? GREAT villains use anything they can do anything they can and heres Hodi doing whatever he can to do whatever he can. Its like calling crack addicts in the real world bad at being in poverty.

I already answered this and it is not the only thing that makes him a piss poor villain.

The Joker comparison is not referring to any lasting status or huge mangawide role at all. I don’t see why you dislike Hodi likewise.

The Joker comparison was ill conceived.

Yup and I was right, you do have no support.

Cuz you consider villains who kill for no purpose great.

Its funny as your support actually proves that he’s a pretty good villain.

To you because villains with substance or an interesting back story pale in comparison to "unique" purposeless villains.

I mean has that ever happened before in One Piece? Kumas role in TB doesn’t substitute Morias main villain status there. Theres always been a clear main villain almost every arc.

Maybe you're new here and signed up recently because that's exactly what was being done in the discussion 6-8 weeks ago.

People solely hated Hodi for the fact that he has no status in the world, unlike other villains.

That's ridiculous and seems like you completely made that up. Nobody hated Hodi because he wasn't known in the OP world. Did fans hate Enel? CP9?

If this manga was in the POV of crocodile and we met Luffy as we did on the other side, everyone would probably hate him as at the time he was mostly a nobody in alabasta.I “chalk” this up to Oda for the new skills, great story telling, and great introduction to the soul of OP

Why are you speculating? You have no point here. If the manga was in Crocodile's POV it'd be a completely different manga. [

Delayed stop? You mean the great sense of adventure and spontaneity?

Nah, Oda was teasing this arc since W7. To many fans it was like he kept stalling. Nobody was complaining with what he stalled with but before the hint of a time skip ppl wanted to get there already but again I get the feeling you're new here so maybe you're not familiar with those sentiments.

Wow so an incredibly risky journey underwater should have conveniently gone completely smooth?

Should've been better than what we've got so far but given it's the first arc after the time skip I can understand.
@Aaronrules380:

Except is hating is entirely based around the idea of racial superiority. Or would you argue the KKK was not a racist group because they went after white republicans as well as blacks in their quest for racial superiority. Not to mention a shit ton of racism in real life isn't caused by personal injustice, its caused by environment. Hody's environment probably wasn't the best, but that was never the reason he hated humans. He hated humans because people kept drilling it into his heads that that's what he should do, and that that was important, and that affected his mindset. Yes he's filled with hate, but the whole point is that the hate was caused by racial tensions in his environment, and NOT that he was just a naturally hateful person

You bold the part in parenthesis where I said "due to the racism…." and then tell me the hatred is based around the idea of racial superiority. I don't get it. I've acknowledged what you're saying, I just wasn't focusing on that part. Of course if fishmen were not victims of racism it's likely that Hodi would not grow up in an environment that produced ppl like Arlong which contributed to him being the person he is now.
@Baou:

If that's how you see this arc,then there's no hope for you.I liked that this arc wasn't the typical "every villain gets stronger as the series progresses" routine.Because that's not how it works in the real world,and that's why Oda is great.God forbid that the StrawHats don't have to push themselves to the limit at every fight.It's cool that they are showing that they can toy with their enemies and pretty much chill.And so what if they aren't fighting a Shich or some other WG place/enemies.

And Oda created this amazing undersea world/culture.The people look awesome,the environment,the way of life.Makes me think of Skypiea/Water 7

Why are you assuming that I wanted the SHs to fight to the limit? What does how the real world works have anything to do with I've said?

[Roronoa Zacho]

Wow, I thought my posts were long!
Anyway, I sumhow understand what Zik means when he says that the arc still feels a lil meh to him, cause I think sumhow the same way bout it. This arc was hyped and delayed like no one other (delayed because right after W7 Kokoro said:"Oh, the needle points downwards? So the next island is FI!", but then we had TB, SA (reasonable because of coating), AL, ID, Marinford, a Luffy-FB and reunion-chaps @ SA not to forget a 2yrs-TS that really felt like 2 yrs, because for us readers the SHs really were seperated for 2 yrs = ~95 chapters).
So my expectations bout this arc went thru the sky.
And by all the puzzle-parts I had so far from OP, I was expecting certain things from that arc, but not all happened as I imagined (pre-SA for example I thought Jinbe being the main villain in FI.)
Oda already blew our minds (@ least mine) several times in the past with arcs like W7/EL or Skypia, and by this arc the most mindblowin stuff was Tiger being a slave, Otohime shot by Hody (was kinda obvious, like Daruma said ) and the "NOTHING" outta Hody's mouth.
Oda also brought up a good point with those "empty racists", I mean look @ all those "holy wars" around the world.
Grudge against each other's race began generations ago, but until now there always have been sum idiots who just hates other races just because their grandparents do so.
And this is really blind hate. If u read the latest chapters again u'll notice how insane Hody is. He wants to kill all humans, all of FI AND all of his own men although he never experienced humans' wrath/racism personally.
Thats a really fulltime-insane-wicked villain and I really like him as villain. Only problem I got with him:
Although he's poppin those pills like candies he can't do shit bout Luffy. He could only bite him.
And now I just wonder if we learn more bout ancient FI-history after the fights. I hope so, cause this mosaic bout this arc still isn't completed and I cannot wait for it until Robin finds the Ryuponeglyph!
Yet I can just complain bout the pacing in this arc. The introduction of this island felt rush, whereas we spent 5-6 chapters with travelling from surface 2 FI. In Skypia it felt like 2-3 chapters.
But IMO the older readers want to get mindblown again just like @AP, Arabasta, Skypia or W7/EL (I also liked sum parts in TB, cause in its beginning we were all like "WTF!?"), and a few time ago we witnesseda war with all admirals, shichibukai, WB and ID-alliance. We got spoiled with such an amount of epicness.
Now I'll just wait to the end of this arc and I hope my most important questions get answered.

[Kizuchan]

lol, I see some of you really hate this arc..

Hodi hates humans because he grew up in an environment like that, everyone kept telling him that it's cool to hate humans and that they're terrible. I can see why some people would find it fascinating, especially since he's contrasting Fisher Tiger, Otohime and in some ways even Arlong. It actually shows that there are extremes everywhere especially when you consider the sabaondy and arlong park arcs as well. This isn't just meant to be seen in the context of this arc, it's one of the major themes of the entire series and it isn't just with the fishmen either. Remember Chopper's backstory? This is all very story centric and you have to think about it. I can see why people would dislike this arc.

[asm00200]

Yes, I'm talking about the context.

@brennen.exe:

Luffy begins Gear 3rd, Hody comments on the damage to Luffy's shoulder, Luffy's wound opens, Luffy remarks on the damage, Luffy attacks, his wound breaks open more, and then Shirahoshi worries about the damage. My argument was that contextually it made no sense for Luffy to ignore Hody in the middle of that and arbitrarily comment on Hody's durability/defense. My suggestion was that perhaps Oda slipped on the grammar, but mainly I was trying to point out that the context revolved around Luffy's wound, and therefore his remark should be in reference to that.

brennen, my man, two things. First, I think you got the order of those events mixed. I think Luffy's wound was open even before Hody's remark. If you look here in the middle-left panel, you can see what looks like blood under Luffy's "injured" shoulder. So, Luffy already knew about the wound being open and Hody's remark added nothing in Luffy's mind.
And that's why Luffy's pointing out Hody's Dur/Def makes sense, because as I said earlier, Luffy thought Hody was out cold.

Second, I think the context revolved on destroying the ship, because when Luffy began Gear 3, he was aiming for the ship and not Hody. And in the middle of preparing for the attack he found Hody is still conscious. Yet, destroying the ship was all he thought of, so he attacked bothe Hody and the ship with Elephant Gun–- and to prove my point, he attacked the ship again with E-Gun. And when it didn't work, he switched to Gatling E-Gun.

[isrnick]

@brennen.exe:

Hahaha, for the last time, nobody was arguing with the translation. All anyone– read: me, brennen-- was saying, was that the context of that scene-- read: the circumstances that are relevant to the event-- is the damage that was done to Luffy. Luffy begins Gear 3rd, Hody comments on the damage to Luffy's shoulder, Luffy's wound opens, Luffy remarks on the damage, Luffy attacks, his wound breaks open more, and then Shirahoshi worries about the damage. My argument was that contextually it made no sense for Luffy to ignore Hody in the middle of that and arbitrarily comment on Hody's durability/defense. My suggestion was that perhaps Oda slipped on the grammar, but mainly I was trying to point out that the context revolved around Luffy's wound, and therefore his remark should be in reference to that. If anything, CNET's translation agrees with my ultimate point, as "he's a crazy tough one, alright" would be referring to the how powerful Hody's teeth were. Basically, Luffy isn't ignoring and making an arbitrary comment, he's responding, if to himself, that Hody is right about the damage to his shoulder.

I brought this up, and continued to argue it, because I think the context is semi-important to the chapter. Oda emphasized multiple times via SFX and artwork (and dialog) that Luffy took some pretty bad damage from Hody, and typically he doesn't emphasize that stuff for nothing. Perhaps it is a weak attempt to lead in to a blood transfusion, perhaps Oda is reminding that Luffy still has room to grow, perhaps something else entirely. Point is, Luffy's hurting over the wound, and Oda's didn't want us to overlook that.

http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/2326/hodysnaps.png

I had got it the first time around that YOU wasn't arguing the translation, but my post wasn't for you but to anybody who still had some kind of doubt about the translation…

[Roronoa Zacho]

@Kizuchan:

lol, I see some of you really hate this arc..
(…)
This isn't just meant to be seen in the context of this arc, it's one of the major themes of the entire series and it isn't just with the fishmen either. Remember Chopper's backstory? This is all very story centric and you have to think about it. I can see why people would dislike this arc.

Don't get me wrong, I don't HATE that arc, its just like Oda blew our minds so awesumly in the past, that the mindblows in this arc don't feel that awesum anymore.

I still like the story in this arc and I love how Oda makes his audience think about certain topics (racism, corruption, that whole black and white scale bout justice and stuff).

And because of that I can't stand readers who are just looking for the fights and don't understand anything when a "more complicated" chapter with a "grey FB" (a flashback thats not as long ago as a black one with lets say 20-10 yrs ago) appears.
Last time we had such a chap was - let me look up - 641, pg 14, 15, … There have been a load of people who were like
"errr, I don't get this chap...!"
But also I'm not used to the fact that the SHs' enemies are no match for them. I'm not that interested in the fights, I just wanna c the SHs struggle.
Aside from that I'm not that happy with a few character-designs as I was with designs from past arcs. But thats just a taste-thing and its not that important 2 me.

I'll like this arc even more if the open questions get answered by the arc's end. Joy Boy, Noah's purpose, maybe that box Decken was lookin 4 (the box thing could also answer the E.S.s' origins).
And what can we expect from the fact that FI is Bigmom's turf?
Why not Kaidou? Just because she likes candies more than he does? IDK... But i hope it will make sense for future parts of the story which I think it sure does! ;)

[GoustiFruit]

Death is also a revenge… but only for Hodi, Zeo and crew. But Hyouzou and Wadatsume (and Decken if he resurect !) have no reason to fight to death. I don't understand why Hyouzou still wants to fight even though Zoro defeated him as a swordman. Unless steroids have another side effect that makes them go suicidal !?

[gottalt3OP]

@Zik:

When I say shitty I'm not putting him on the level of say someone comical like Wapol was. I'm just comparing to past OP villains. After Arlong you'd think returning to this issue and finally coming to Gyojin island finally we'd get something a bit more in a villain. Not to mention after the timeskip and going in to the NW. This whole arc just feels like a lull to me because of the main villain and the red herrings in Decken and that logia user (forgot his name). His flashback doesn't mean much after what we've learned but that's just how I feel about it.

Given the topic and the history in the real world, there's a lot better kinds of villains Oda could have generated for it. I just feel like this was one of those stops where the arc needed a villain so Hodi was put in to fill a role and then move on.

I was actually taking your opinion seriously, as simply an opinion diverging from mine, based on character taste. Until I read that.
Seriously, you might not like Hodi's develpment, but the way it fits with all the story is clearly not a 'insert random char so that he can take a beating'. I mean, we first get a flashback about a QUEEN who enphatized the importance of not influencing our kids to hate a generalized group just for the sake of hating it. And a PIRATE who despite hating humans with all his might, since they had done bad things to him, but despised himself even more for hating them. Whats more logic than having a villain born from that influence, who despises humans as much as Fisher Tiger or more, while humans did completly no harm to him.
I see the plot as Perfect fit, were every character matters (Including the NFP commanders, since their random personality shows that they could have been very funny and normal persons).

@Zik:

I feel this arc's villain just wasn't up to par to past villains. I've already previously stated what I felt what Oda was showcasing with this arc as it went on. I'd also add much needed back story was provided or aforementioned characters. The arcs in the beginning imo have better stories and villains. To specifically compare it to AP, it shows the lengths Arlong went to for revenge.

I'd like to just tell 'no use commenting, some people just can't understand', but I guess that wouldn't be much of an argument.
Obviously Arlong is a much more likeable, villain. Lets say that he is cooler. He hates humans as we would hate lions if they had killed our best friend/captain. And he takes that hate to a new level.
HOWEVER, would a character like Arlong fit in this arc as well as Hodi? No. The point of this arc is to show how the things said to kids have a huge impact. Most people here are not familiar with such cases, nor am I. But there are plenty of real world cases of this. Its a simple case were

Yes you dumbass. Graydon Creed, Simon Trask, Bolivar Trask, Bastion, etc. There's so many groups in the X-Men who's soul cause is based on their racist hatred towards mutants it's ridiculous. I mean this comic has been running for like 40 years now and ignoring that they had to update the environment to fit current times, ppl still are racist towards mutants.

Most people are not familiar with the X-Men comic. I'd assume most are manga fans, giving exemples unnapropriate for the auditory does not make a good argument. I don't even give a crap who Bastion his. I saw the movies, and I didn't see a single enphasis on a person who hated mutants cause their parents just said "HEY SEE, THEY ARE SICKOS HATE THEM". Most of the time it was more the mutants who bashed agains the humans who were just trying to help.(I do need to review the movies, tough)
BUT THEN WHATS THE POINT? Its taken directly from reality, is OBVIOUSLY a copy of something, and everything is a copy of something? Has it ever been done in an underwater island, filled with gorgeous mermaids, interesting designs and whatnot? Has it ever been done featuring our favorite straw hats? Has it ever been done while mixing in a paranoid stalker? Thats the part that is original. Seeing such a story, in this plot, with this characters. Not a single fuck was given if some stupid ass in X-MAN also hated mutants cause is father/mother/bully friends said so… It is not something you see everytime you read a shounen jump manga. Its not even usual in manga or books. You said it yourself, its been in a comic who is 40 years old. And there isn't that many stories who tell racism from this angle.
You can't say you hate the ARC cause its been done. thats no argument, as I don't remember any fishman hating human stories. (Might have missed some were they eat humans :ninja:)
This arc is good cause of the sequence of the happenings, which leaves you hanging, and then connects all the dots. I bet I wasn't the only one who tought Otohime was crazy. Whoever gives a shit if kids saw that tenryuubito bastard get blown up? But then it got connected, and wesaw why people should indeed give a shit. As if they don't, ships will fall from the sky.

It's not done different. Oda has some of a persecuted group/victims of racism lash out against humans for various reasons, some change over time (Jinbe, Hachi) and some don't(Arlong), some are just born in the era of hatred and are fueled by that alone (Hodi). All of that is in the X-Men. The Morlocks are a group shunned by humanity (to the point they live in the sewers of NYC) which produce characters like Marrow who hate humans and to an extended point dislike other mutants that can pass for human on the surface. There's a grip of mutant terrorist groups killing ppl like the MLF and Friends of humanity(also a political group). At this point, the comic is basically the blueprint for other comics injecting racial undertones, setting up whole themes of racism in action adventure comics. If you seriously are trying to bring this to a comparison towards the X-Men you've already lost. Just say you don't read it and I can understand how you're amazed at what Oda's doing with fishmen/merfolk.

As I said before, its just that Oda did it in a great way (I didn't read X-man, so I can't say if he did it better or worse nor is that the point…). Its been done, X-Man has done it. A serie which focus almost entirely on racism has done it. Shitty X-man if it hadn't.
Its not usual to see it in shounen mangas, nor is it usual to see it in any manga. It has been done, most likely. But if its not common, it has originality bonus, I would assume. I don't care if a comic has done it, or if a film has done it or if a movie has done it. Its the first time I see it in a shounen/seinnen/shoujo/josei manga, and so I like it.

You asked for an example I gave you one. Now you're asking for a villain that is just filled with hate? Is that what you're asking for? Is that what you're considering unique and/or special?

Something Unique is something that hasn't been done, if it hasn't been done, it is unique and special, even if it is crap, period.

You can say that's exactly what Oda's done. What added twist has he implemented?

mmm. thats not directed to me, I'll just ignore. But I don't see why you can't see the diferences between THIS and X-MAN. I mean, (you eat devil fruits after you are alive, its no mutation)… Its a different series, different feeling. Different chars. Different.

I do not understand the fascination with this. That premise is not new. It's new for OP but it's not new. I don't know why you haven't come across a fictional character that is a villain simply because that's how he grew up.

:blink: isn't that what matters. Its new for OP, is the first time I see this characters in this situation. Its well connected, well fundamented, comic relief, fanservice, added twists (Joyboy…), and shows the crews power ups in a semi-threatning situation. What else could you ask? Another arc with an affable bad boy who wants to destroy FI to get candy? A simple adventure wich would take 5 chapters and slap the face of those who waited 9(?) years for fishman Island? A long adventure without any plot advancement nor a villain, which would let us hanging about all the power ups? I think this was neat, and best than anything I could come up with. And so I think its good.

Again are you talking about OP or in general with other fictional works?

Not directed at me, nor do I care.

The purest that are not that pure has not been explored that much?
So because Hodi uses his strength instead of his mind he is a good/unique villain and that's why you compared him to the Joker? I don't understand that. I thought you were comparing the Joker to Hodi because of them being evil for the sake of it/that's all they know not because Hodi doesn't use his mind enough.

Wut? OH damn, I'm not a fan of comics, stop with those examples. :/ The premise of multiple writers writing 1 story is not something I can get myself to enjoy.

You've never seen a character or a villain disrespect his teachers/bosses/master/sensei or a person they once thought of as a role model?

… Most of the time those get killed, isn't that correct?

It's occurred to me that apparently there's a lot you haven't seen before in a comic.

I definitly haven't, manga I have, western comics just bore me to death. All that realism, and super human inside normal human world kill it for me.

Okay, "the purest aren’t pure" or that pure is what I think you meant, strength instead of smarts, and disrespecting those that have influenced you. I'd say read Berserk, Gantz, limited edition Juggernaut comics, Monster, Hellsing, Devilman, Shamo, AIKI, Full Metal Alchemist. Start with these, I hope you'll be able to identify the "unique" points you've mentioned. You'll even see better villains than Hodi with similar motives.

Berserk, better villains, do not compute. Gantz, better villains, does not compute. Hellsing, wow there was that guy who loved war just for the sake of loving, that was interesting. Devilman, Shamo, AIKI, is that good? might give it a try. FMA, HMMM I may be the only person who tought the end was rushed as hell. The whole father absorbing god was just not to my liking. But yet, those any of those mangas feature Racism? I don't think so. Might have said Wolf Boy, there you have a really awesome villain who just hates for the sake of hating. Yet most people would consider him as awesome as you consider Hodi. :/

As an OP fan, this arc feels like a lull as I've already said.

Oh, like a lull, I like laughing, so if it feels like laughing, wouldn't it feel good? Just sayin'

I am not amazed by what Oda's produced with this villain or the main conflict in the arc.

And here we are, yet again saying we hate this arc, withou actually telling whats bad. Whats bad in the conflit…

No it doesn't make him unique if I've seen it before. You keep talking about cliche motives or character traits but boring is not better.

MMMM So its boring, then, reason for it being boring? Or are you unnafected by tiny little children getting her minds blurred by mindless losers. :/ You're the worst. You don't care about injustices in this world. (Note that I'm just over exagerating…. but the fact that I'm exagerating does not mean you can ignore this by saying "you were exagerating")

So now you're saying Hodi is about opressing the weak? I already said in that quote "He isn't even driven by racism, I mentioned this in my last post." This is I think the second time I've said that so you could understand the context. If you're gonna say Hodi has no hate in him and is now only driven by the idea that he's better than everybody else so they should kneel before him makes me think you haven't been reading. Hodi grew up in an enviornment where his own ppl were persecuted for being born the way they were. Arlong filled his head with a hateful perspective.
No it is not but maybe you don't understand in what context I'm using the word. What is so interesting about a character that simply kills for no purpose. I've seen that with guys like Cletus Cassidy. Killing for no purpose does not make a character a great villain.

How about, the guy is not interesting, the story surrounding him HIS. And he has the best personality to fit that story.
He is not a great villain, he is a less than average one who serves is perfect better than any other would. Just that?

I'm not strictly looking at the fear factor in villains.
And when done well they continue to impress. That is not unique imo.
The pills are Hodi's main crutch. It's the reason he's even gotten this far. It's been the plot device to keep the villain in the story from the start. If you're saying he's smart because he takes the pills, fine but without them he's henchmen status. I like my villains to have substance, Hodi lacks it. A villain that kills for no purpose or reasons like "I'm better than you so kneel before me" just aren't that interesting to me. I don't see them as great. If you're really comparing Hodi to the Joker in those regards Oda simply didn't do a good enough job in selling Hodi. He seems like the impatient brat that wanted to join the fray and when he gets the chance all of his influences are dead or in prison so he's so desperate to have a legacy or succeed where they failed he uses drugs to reach that goal and eventually goes off the deep end.

Wow wow wow, just WHAAAT?
Hodi has a purpose. And he is not all "Me>The so kneel upon me". Is purpose is to mantain the hate and whatnot, since he can not live without it. Oda explained it better than I could ever do, so go and read it.

You're comparing gear 2 to deus ex machina pills? Luffy was going all out during the war, what are you suggesting that he should've done? Yeah Ivankov spammed his healing ability at key moments to keep the story flowing while having it still be Luffy maxed out in the war, what does that have to do with him being likable? I mean hell even if I hated that, guess what in the end Luffy failed to save his brother, so technically if you're seriously comparing power enhancing drugs to gear 2 and Iva's ability they both lost in the end.

Luffy also takes the pills as he would take any power up. You don't see him saying "YOUR TOUGH CAUSE YOU TAKE PILLS". The pills are a massive power up, and he is powerfull cause he has assess to him. Saying he is not powerfull because he is taking pills is not true, since the pills are now part of his power. Simple. Whats bad with rellying on pills, would you love it more if it was a power up with 100 stages? WTV, its the same. It just hads that neat martyr effect, and is easy to have all of the NFP with the same power up.

Villains that heavily rely on drugs that'll make them go insane or eventually push them beyond their limits are the cheapest kinds. Their downfalls are so transparent. It's like the villain with anger issues, they're ticking time bombs. I don't see that as likeable traits.

Lucci commented on Luffy's gear2 the same way you are commenting on those steroids. So is luffy unlikeable? Was is downfall transparent? Oh wait, he won.

does not quote joker crap, for I've never seen the last batman. But hey, from what I've read, Joker=/=Hodi, like not similar at all.

When I say fail, I'm talking about this current arc, not a reveal in a flashback that happened decades ago. You're adding the queen's death as if anyone is contesting that like someone was there to stop him. How did Hodi not fail and continue to change his plans every time he did this arc? His end goal was not attack innocent citizens. What do you mean by my logic? Most of the villains in OP have failed, that's a fact.

When you have a giant ship in one side, and a person who can most likely destroy the same ship in the other, its difficult to make wise decisions. Specially since Martyrs do not think of retreat as a possibility.
But Hodi is not a brilliant master mind. He is a mindless hater. And haters gonna hate. How can you call some one a master mind if he can not even think for himself. A smart person would have realized some humans are not that bad…

How is that similar? Fishmen are victims of racism. Some humans see them just as fish or wild animals. Hodi wanted to send a message that the ppl of FI were not to be messed with. How is that similar to the Joker "killing people to show Batman that he’s the reason such villains exist." The Joker in TDK is all about anarchy. The whole "Some men just want to see the world burn" IS the Joker. Joker is portrayed as a chaotic villain in TDK. That's why he burned the money, that's why he set up the bomb situation with the prisoners and citizens of Gotham. He also wanted to prove Batman's faith in the ppl of Gotham wrong. Hodi started off with wanting to make a name for fishmen to cause humans to fear them. A dozen pills later Fukaboshi says he knows what Hodi is and he's just hate filled bastard that doesn't care and now Hodi wants to destroy the entire island. I don't know how you can compare Hodi to the Joker when we all know where the Joker stands as a villain. Hodi on the other hand started off one with a cause and his mind has progressively deteriorated to the point he's trying to justify any of his actions because that's what he's learned. He went from I'm taking up for Arlong's legacy to he was weak cuz he failed.

Shouled just add that it wasn't is mind that deteorated, it was our understanding of his mind. He was deteorated since he was 9.

LAWLS @ cunningly changed his plan. It wasn't even his plan. Yeah he didn't want to rule the island he just wanted to take over because he saw the king and the rest of the kingdom as weak. He wanted to take over the island to further continue his original goal of making humans fear fishmen. He failed and then hijacked Decken's threat to destroy the island once he realized the rest of the citizens weren't going over to his side of thinking.
I already answered this and it is not the only thing that makes him a piss poor villain.
The Joker comparison was ill conceived.

Well, isn't this arc about the horrible kind of people who rise from influencing the children? then wouldn't he be a piss poor person make him a perfect fit for this arcs villain?

Cuz you consider villains who kill for no purpose great.

Was is purpose that badly explained? I tought it was totally obvious that they were doing it cause they could not let the hate for humans die out. And everything he did was based on that.

To you because villains with substance or an interesting back story pale in comparison to "unique" purposeless villains.

Is just that those so called purposeless villains give a unique vibe to the story and give it more substance, than a villain who had substance in and by himself would. And helps to turn the Kingdom back story into a more interesting one. Just that.

Maybe you're new here and signed up recently because that's exactly what was being done in the discussion 6-8 weeks ago. That's ridiculous and seems like you completely made that up. Nobody hated Hodi because he wasn't known in the OP world. Did fans hate Enel? CP9?

And would that make him an idiot? I joined APforums 2 years after I started reading One Piece, for instances.

Why are you speculating? You have no point here. If the manga was in Crocodile's POV it'd be a completely different manga. [
Nah, Oda was teasing this arc since W7. To many fans it was like he kept stalling. Nobody was complaining with what he stalled with but before the hint of a time skip ppl wanted to get there already but again I get the feeling you're new here so maybe you're not familiar with those sentiments.

I guess I said something similar to what he sais up there… Maybe you will manage to understand.

Should've been better than what we've got so far but given it's the first arc after the time skip I can understand.

For me, its about the same level as Water 7, which I consider the greatest arc. So yes, I like it.

You bold the part in parenthesis where I said "due to the racism…." and then tell me the hatred is based around the idea of racial superiority. I don't get it. I've acknowledged what you're saying, I just wasn't focusing on that part. Of course if fishmen were not victims of racism it's likely that Hodi would not grow up in an environment that produced ppl like Arlong which contributed to him being the person he is now.
Why are you assuming that I wanted the SHs to fight to the limit? What does how the real world works have anything to do with I've said?

Well, I just don't understand what kind of villain you wanted to fit in this kind of story, mind telling me. Cause for bashing this arc so bad, you must have some idea on how to make it better (to you).

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

ouch. If there is a situation where tl, dr is legitim, this is it. DAMN. THAT GOT BIG. sorry.

--- Update From New Post Merge ---

I killed the thread.

[JonesDking]

Damn gotta.I mean DAMN!!!!

[nefra]

wow that is one long post….now going to read it.

[Mr.3]

Nice chap. last week. I really hope this break is worth the wait. I expect Oda to leave me sufficiently mindblown next week.

[Zik]

@gotta<3OP:

I was actually taking your opinion seriously, as simply an opinion diverging from mine, based on character taste. Until I read that. Seriously, you might not like Hodi's develpment, but the way it fits with all the story is clearly not a 'insert random char so that he can take a beating'.

It's not so much insert random character as it is insert basic villain. Given the issue at hand, I figured the villain placed in this arc would be a guy that'd be trying to direct fishmen to a better status albeit in a evil way instead what we've got as the main villain to advance this issue in the story is a madman who is killing ppl and continuing the cycle because that's what he learned. Just a plain rotten to the core guy, victim of the era he grew up in. Which just results in other fishmen/merfolk coming to the realization that they shouldn't be that way cuz in the end we don't get what we want, it just perpetuates hate. I'm not saying he doesn't fit in to that story.

I'd like to just tell 'no use commenting, some people just can't understand', but I guess that wouldn't be much of an argument.
Obviously Arlong is a much more likeable, villain. Lets say that he is cooler. He hates humans as we would hate lions if they had killed our best friend/captain. And he takes that hate to a new level.
HOWEVER, would a character like Arlong fit in this arc as well as Hodi? No. The point of this arc is to show how the things said to kids have a huge impact. Most people here are not familiar with such cases, nor am I. But there are plenty of real world cases of this. Its a simple case were

You're talking about this after the fact though, we didn't know what the story was going to be. I'm saying now that it's pretty much done, eh, the villain could've been better, the arc could've been better. I'm not saying hey there should've been a guy like Croc or Enel or Arlong as the villain, that doesn't even make sense.

Most people are not familiar with the X-Men comic.

False statement but maybe you're saying that with a specific type of group in mind.

I'd assume most are manga fans, giving exemples unnapropriate for the auditory does not make a good argument. I don't even give a crap who Bastion his.

Well it's a good thing you didn't ask the question then right? I mean it wasn't like it was you saying what Oda's done with this story is something you've never seen before and that Hodi is a unique villain you've never seen before. I don't even know why you're even replying to this post if you're not taking up the same point of view as the other guy what are you even arguing?

I saw the movies, and I didn't see a single enphasis on a person who hated mutants cause their parents just said "HEY SEE, THEY ARE SICKOS HATE THEM". Most of the time it was more the mutants who bashed agains the humans who were just trying to help.(I do need to review the movies, tough)

LAWLS

BUT THEN WHATS THE POINT? Its taken directly from reality, is OBVIOUSLY a copy of something, and everything is a copy of something? Has it ever been done in an underwater island, filled with gorgeous mermaids, interesting designs and whatnot? Has it ever been done featuring our favorite straw hats? Has it ever been done while mixing in a paranoid stalker? Thats the part that is original. Seeing such a story, in this plot, with this characters. Not a single fuck was given if some stupid ass in X-MAN also hated mutants cause is father/mother/bully friends said so… It is not something you see everytime you read a shounen jump manga. Its not even usual in manga or books. You said it yourself, its been in a comic who is 40 years old. And there isn't that many stories who tell racism from this angle.
You can't say you hate the ARC cause its been done. thats no argument, as I don't remember any fishman hating human stories. (Might have missed some were they eat humans :ninja:)

I don't even…. You're not even. Everything you're saying here is irrelevant if you're not agreeing with what the other guy asked. I'm not the one saying what Oda's doing is something I've never seen. You specifying the issue racism placed on merfolk and fishmen isn't a rebuttal to anything I said cuz I'm not arguing that. This has nothing to do with copying. It's about taking themes and interesting issues and applying them to your work and then discussing/critiquing how the author structures and uses the myriad of conflicts to develop characters and the story. That's what was being discussed not whether or not anyone else have used mermaids in a story dealing with racism.

This arc is good cause of the sequence of the happenings, which leaves you hanging, and then connects all the dots.

All arcs for any competent author are suppose to do that though. You're talking like I'm comparing this arc to Fairy Tale or Naruto. I'm not saying this arc is the worst in manga history. I'm comparing this to other OP arcs on OP standards. That's why I can come to the conclusion that isn't that good to me.

I bet I wasn't the only one who tought Otohime was crazy.

Crazy for what? Are you talking about her cause or just how Oda made her character? Her cause was not crazy in any way.

As I said before, its just that Oda did it in a great way (I didn't read X-man, so I can't say if he did it better or worse nor is that the point…). Its been done, X-Man has done it. A serie which focus almost entirely on racism has done it. Shitty X-man if it hadn't.

Not imo.

Its not usual to see it in shounen mangas, nor is it usual to see it in any manga. It has been done, most likely. But if its not common, it has originality bonus, I would assume. I don't care if a comic has done it, or if a film has done it or if a movie has done it. Its the first time I see it in a shounen/seinnen/shoujo/josei manga, and so I like it.

It seems like YOU want to argue this in the realm of comparing this to other manga and not what thewonderer was trying to argue it.

Something Unique is something that hasn't been done, if it hasn't been done, it is unique and special, even if it is crap, period.

Well what was being discussed has been done before. That's not an argument on either side with the guy I was replying to. He was saying that how Oda wrote Hodi was unique which I disagree with and that Hodi is a great villain for all the reasons I think he isn't.

mmm. thats not directed to me, I'll just ignore.

NONE of my post were directed to you. This is the first time you're replying to me on this topic. Now that I look back I've been arguing with thewonderer not you.

But I don't see why you can't see the diferences between THIS and X-MAN. I mean, (you eat devil fruits after you are alive, its no mutation)… Its a different series, different feeling. Different chars. Different.

OF COURSE IT IS DIFFERENT. Who is saying it's not? Again we were arguing specific types of villains and uses of the issue of racism applied to a work. The guy was saying what Oda was doing is something he's never seen before, he was saying that as a reply to me saying Hodi is a shitty villain and this arc isn't that good. He said he's NEVER seen what Oda's doing with this arc the way he's doing it. I then brought up the X-Men as something that's been done that way before that did not involve racism between blacks and whites. He gets a little more specific and then I bring up a little more specific examples from the X-Men. He brings up how specific ways Oda has been structuring the arc and developing characters, I then bring up other manga with those same points for why he feels the arc is unique and Hodi's unique. So if he got more specific yes he'd probably be where you arguing that nobody else has used fishmen and the topic of racism or that devil fruit powers aren't the same being a mutant. sighI hope it doesn't get to that point though.

:blink: isn't that what matters.

If this is something you've never seen before then no, it doesn't matter. You seem to have the problem of replying to my posts that are directed at someone else. I don't know why, I also get the feeling you were not following the argument from the beginning cuz you're saying things outside the context of the argument. This wouldn't be an argument if it started with this something new in OP.

Wut? OH damn, I'm not a fan of comics, stop with those examples. :/ The premise of multiple writers writing 1 story is not something I can get myself to enjoy.

If you're not a fan of comics don't reply to any of this lol. I didn't make the post just so you could respond to it as if it was all directed towards to you. If you support thewonderer's stance what Oda's doing is something you've never seen before than reply accordingly.

… Most of the time those get killed, isn't that correct?

No.

I definitly haven't, manga I have, western comics just bore me to death. All that realism, and super human inside normal human world kill it for me.

Why are you replying to this?

Berserk, better villains, do not compute. Gantz, better villains, does not compute. Hellsing, wow there was that guy who loved war just for the sake of loving, that was interesting. Devilman, Shamo, AIKI, is that good? might give it a try. FMA, HMMM I may be the only person who tought the end was rushed as hell. The whole father absorbing god was just not to my liking. But yet, those any of those mangas feature Racism? I don't think so. Might have said Wolf Boy, there you have a really awesome villain who just hates for the sake of hating. Yet most people would consider him as awesome as you consider Hodi. :/

I don't think I'm gonna reply to you ever again after this. Be honest, you trollin me right?

Oh, like a lull, I like laughing, so if it feels like laughing, wouldn't it feel good? Just sayin'

A lull not lol or lulz.

And here we are, yet again saying we hate this arc, withou actually telling whats bad. Whats bad in the conflit…

I don't hate it, it just bores me. I don't think it's that good and Hodi defintely defintelty isn't a great villain to me. I've stated why go read the last 2 or 3 pages.

MMMM So its boring, then, reason for it being boring? Or are you unnafected by tiny little children getting her minds blurred by mindless losers. :/ You're the worst. You don't care about injustices in this world. (Note that I'm just over exagerating…. but the fact that I'm exagerating does not mean you can ignore this by saying "you were exagerating")

LMAO. Sorry if I didn't connect with the little children. You do bring up a good point, maybe because I've read other comics western or otherwise that have had better stories or have told better ones dealing with racism and the fact that I've already read the Arlong arc and gotten all the hints about the situation before we got there may be a reason I just don't care about the main conflict with Hodi and it just annoys/bores me. I will say I really liked flashback Jinbe though but then I'm reminded how awful FT's death was.

Well, I just don't understand what kind of villain you wanted to fit in this kind of story, mind telling me. Cause for bashing this arc so bad, you must have some idea on how to make it better (to you).

How about, the guy is not interesting, the story surrounding him HIS. And he has the best personality to fit that story.He is not a great villain, he is a less than average one who serves is perfect better than any other would. Just that?

Well there you go I would've liked it if Hodi was interesting and a better villain. The story itself isn't horrible.

Wow wow wow, just WHAAAT?
Hodi has a purpose. And he is not all "Me>The so kneel upon me". Is purpose is to mantain the hate and whatnot, since he can not live without it. Oda explained it better than I could ever do, so go and read it.

According to thewonderer Hodi kills for no purpose and that's what makes a great villain, he grew up this way and that's why he's unique. He also kills because he's better than everybody else so they should kneel to him. He stated a bunch of other reasons so that's how we got here.

Luffy also takes the pills as he would take any power up. You don't see him saying "YOUR TOUGH CAUSE YOU TAKE PILLS". The pills are a massive power up, and he is powerfull cause he has assess to him. Saying he is not powerfull because he is taking pills is not true, since the pills are now part of his power. Simple. Whats bad with rellying on pills, would you love it more if it was a power up with 100 stages? WTV, its the same. It just hads that neat martyr effect, and is easy to have all of the NFP with the same power up.

Plot device power ups are cheap but are expected this kind of shonen manga but as the villain you'd think he'd at least have an established power set. I also note it's the pills that really changed Hodi in the recent events that even allowed him to last this long.

I'm not aware when Luffy took any pills unless you're saying Luffy's power ups like haki are the same as the pills.

Lucci commented on Luffy's gear2 the same way you are commenting on those steroids. So is luffy unlikeable? Was is downfall transparent? Oh wait, he won.

Lucci said it's like doping but the thing is Luffy developed that ability with his own power. Just like he's always done. Like I've said before about Hodi he's kinda always wanted to be on that big stage and when he got there he wasn't strong enough so he took the pills and he's so far the only guy dumb enough to take so many he'd go over his limit and snap.

When you have a giant ship in one side, and a person who can most likely destroy the same ship in the other, its difficult to make wise decisions. Specially since Martyrs do not think of retreat as a possibility.

I don't think Hodi was ever going to martyr himself. He was planning to kill the king, then Decken threatens Shira with destroying the island. Hodi gets mad cuz he doesn't want that and takes out Decken, then he changed his mind and decided to destroy the island himself.

Shouled just add that it wasn't is mind that deteorated, it was our understanding of his mind. He was deteorated since he was 9.

The conditioning of the mind in your formative years to be a certain type of person isn't the same as brain altering/damaging drugs.

Well, isn't this arc about the horrible kind of people who rise from influencing the children? then wouldn't he be a piss poor person make him a perfect fit for this arcs villain?

Kinda sums up why I don't care for the arc or villain.

Was is purpose that badly explained? I tought it was totally obvious that they were doing it cause they could not let the hate for humans die out. And everything he did was based on that.

yes i was several times by the other guy but I understand his purpose for the most part as those other ppl gave their own reasons the way they've seen it. The whole perpetuate hate didn't do it for me the way Oda presented it in this arc.

Is just that those so called purposeless villains give a unique vibe to the story and give it more substance, than a villain who had substance in and by himself would. And helps to turn the Kingdom back story into a more interesting one. Just that.

Not a fan.

And would that make him an idiot? I joined APforums 2 years after I started reading One Piece, for instances.

No it'd just account for why his reply isn't well informed.

For me, its about the same level as Water 7, which I consider the greatest arc. So yes, I like it.

Difference of opinion. This current arc isn't in the same league as W7/EL

[AlucarDraculA]

Wow, and to think I often need to add filler to get past the sixteen character limit…

[rubia_ryu]

Here's a hint, spaces are your friend.

Not directed at me, nor do I care.

Why do people bother responding to something that is neither directed toward them nor of their interest?

[gottalt3OP]

@Zik, I've quoted you in the last page, and you just ignored.
If you're in a forum even tough you're arguing with a specific person, I can counter your arguments. I know I'm not the other guy, nor was I backing up the other guy. Why ignore most (read some) of my post just cause I'm not the other guy O.o?
And I just love how you didn't say what would be for you a better than arc than this? What would you wish to see in Fishman Island? Whats the point of saying "I don't like it" if you don't even say what part in specific you didn't like? You didn't like the villain, that I got it. But its not like Hodi was a main point. He was basically a mean to achieve a point. In my opinion I don't think a guy directing fishmans to a brighter future with the wrong ideas would be that good of a villain. I mean, that would be just more of the same. Obviously different but worse is not good. But in such a big story having some variety is always a good thing. Since we have a lot more arcs to come, which might suit better our tastes. So having an arc which does not uses that idea (of a villain who leads a community with the wrong intentions) might be a good thing, since we may have that used in an other arc, were it would fit even better.
And by the way, if you meant a lull then it makes even less sense. In what point was this arc a lull? Its full of activity. I actually didn't know the existance of this word. Thanks for informing. :) But if I understood, this arc was definitly not a lull, its packed with activitie, and it actually advances the whole plot of the One Piece world, after all there will be stuff about the ancient kingdom and Reverie ^.^.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@rubia_ryu:

Here's a hint, spaces are your friend.

Why do people bother responding to something that is neither directed toward them nor of their interest?

Thats why I din't answer, the parts that were not directed to me, and weren't of my interest.
The parts that interested me, I answered, just that.

edit: Obviously my remarks about comics were not answering to anyone, was just me ranting about them cause I can. :)
And I don't think that (outside of America) X-man comics are that widely spread. In my country it would take much time to find a single person whith one of the chapters.

Edit 2 (actually 4): I actually think you misunderstood my point. I quoted you, but I was simply stating my opinion about the discussed facts. In a way I was trying to argue booth your's and the other guy's opinion. I just tought it would make more sense to only quote yours, after all, the scroll bar is already small enough.

[Zik]

@gotta<3OP:

@Zik, I've quoted you in the last page, and you just ignored.

I just looked and since I've started replying to thewonderer I haven't seen you quote me once. Especially not page 24. I've seen you quote isrnick.

Besides that I haven't been posting much in these threads or this section of the forum for that matter in the past few chaps/weeks for the exact reason of me not thinking this arc is all that good so it's not like I'm actively reading every single post in this thread.

If you're in a forum even tough you're arguing with a specific person, I can counter your arguments. I know I'm not the other guy, nor was I backing up the other guy.Why ignore most (read some) of my post just cause I'm not the other guy O.o?

How can you counter my arguments if you do not agree with the person I'm arguing against or even know exactly what I'm arguing about? Especially when you're quoting specific things I've directed to the person I'm arguing with?

And I just love how you didn't say what would be for you a better than arc than this? What would you wish to see in Fishman Island? Whats the point of saying "I don't like it" if you don't even say what part in specific you didn't like? You didn't like the villain, that I got it. But its not like Hodi was a main point. He was basically a mean to achieve a point.

That's what (another thing) I didn't like. I've stated what I didn't like several times now and all I get in response is I didn't say why. Try rereading all of my posts one more time.

Also, ofcourse w/e I suggest now is going to get the reply of "I don't think that would make a good villain." I'm not about to create a new arc for fishman island just to please ppl who don't agree with me lol about why I don't like the arc or villain.

And by the way, if you meant a lull then it makes even less sense. In what point was this arc a lull?

Outside of the exceptions I've already noted it bored me.

If you were just stating your opinion on the argument altogether, that's fine but you didn't really need to quote me to do it. It just came off like you just started replying without understanding the context in which I was arguing in. Obviously if you're not following what the other person has said and asked for my posts can be seen in a different perspective.