#17 and #18 aren't stronger in the main timeline. It's just that in the future they don't use all their power. When Gohan confronts the cyborgs for the final time in the future and is confident he will beat them, #17 says him and #18 had only been using half of their power up till then. In the main timeline they use their full power from the get go, making Trunks think they're stronger.
Dragonball Discussion
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For one part, the reason for the massive beating in the main timeline is Trunks' fault. He altered time so badly that he caused #16 to be unleashed, #19 to be created, Dr. Gero to turn himself into a Cyborg and for #17 and #18 to become stronger than the ones in his own time.
Part of the reason Cyborgs #17 and #18 are stronger is because of the nanomachines within their bodies that supply them with infinite amounts of energy. But because it's so powerful, it makes them out of his control. Which is a reason he went with the energy absorbing design.
As for Cell, it's obvious. He's got mostly everyone's DNA in him. Two Saiyans in his blood, making him perfectly capable of shooting up his power every time he recovers from a near death experience, and having Piccolo's DNA to fix himself up from any major damage would definitely do the trick.
Actually wasn't the whole timeline changing thing Cell's fault since he travelled back before Trunk's did(A year before I think)? I always assumed it was Cell that changed it. But I also realize that Cell travelling to before Trunk's arrived could've been because of Trunk's first journey. I'm confused.
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Okay I never knew that about Daimao lol .
I don't think there was anything beyond a vomit sound used in the german dub though .
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Tsukento, you may be right about the rhyme, but the idea that its' "demon language silly!!!" is retarded.
There are maybe 12 chapters between that and Raditz showing up. -
Regarding the time-line stuff, basically there are three timelines that occur:
Timeline 1: 17 & 18 kill everyone, Trunks isn't powerful enough, goes back to the past. Later returns, defeats 17, 18 & Cell.
Timeline 2: 17 & 18 kill everyone, Trunks finally defeats them, but is killed by Cell, Cell goes back in time to get 17 and 18 for himself
Timeline 3: The main timeline: Trunks from Timeline 2 intervenes when Frieza and Cold show up, 16, 19 and 20 are invented aside from 17 & 18, Cell from Timeline 3 shows up to eat the androids and perfect himself, leading to Cell game and so on. (as well as Trunks from Timeline 1 to eventually get powerful enough to save his own timeline) Oh and the Cell of this world ends up killed in the lab. -
I like how AT changed things around so much in the Cell Saga.
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None of these explanations make a scientist making teenagers stronger then magic legendary super beings and alien space lords by putting devices in them remotely not laughably dumb.
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Speaking of the Cell saga, didn't Daemon Clark, the voice of Perfect Cell move? I'm actually hoping they get J. Michael Tatum to replace him, since it's pretty easy to imagine him with Eneru's voice.
I also hope they don't go with that monotone echo bullshit for #16, this time around.
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I
Like
The
Birds
I
Am
Supposed
To
Symbolize
Humanity
In
A
Machine
Beep
Boop
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Travis Willingham is voicing Cell now, as per his website and the credits of Raging Blast.
Here's a clip:
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@Tokoro:
Regarding the time-line stuff, basically there are three timelines that occur:
Timeline 1: 17 & 18 kill everyone, Trunks isn't powerful enough, goes back to the past. Later returns, defeats 17, 18 & Cell.
Timeline 2: 17 & 18 kill everyone, Trunks finally defeats them, but is killed by Cell, Cell goes back in time to get 17 and 18 for himself
Timeline 3: The main timeline: Trunks from Timeline 2 intervenes when Frieza and Cold show up, 16, 19 and 20 are invented aside from 17 & 18, Cell from Timeline 3 shows up to eat the androids and perfect himself, leading to Cell game and so on. (as well as Trunks from Timeline 1 to eventually get powerful enough to save his own timeline) Oh and the Cell of this world ends up killed in the lab.I think there was a 4th timeline. That was the one where Trunks went into the past (without Cell also doing so) which led to Trunks being killed by Cell when he returned home.
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@Tokoro:
I think somehow that Buu was just a reaction to the Cell arc being way too serious and way too played seriously. Heck, even the whole idea of Mr. Satan barging in from nowhere to challenge Cell was probably Toriyama beginning to revolt by saying "you know if they want an action arc, fine…but I'm not like that and people are forgetting who I was with Dr. Slump and early DB". I'm happy with the Buu arc returning the series to its roots even with some of the massive baggage it has to carry with it.
I've always had this vision in my head for the past 5 years that Toriyama purposely wante to sabatoge his last story to get fired from sj. I wrote this a long time ago so enjoy.
! Toriyama: Those jerks at SJ wanted me to continue my story after I wanted to end it after my planet namek ark. Well after how much I fucked up my android ark they will have to fire me now! heh heh
! SJ Editor: THE KIDS LOVED your last ark! You should make one more! Don't end it here!
! T: Fuck….FINE! I got the perfect idea! The story will be set many years after Gohan killed Cell. He will be going to highschool! Oh I know what will fuck this up more! He will be a SUPER HERO TOO! I'll call him GREAT SAIYAMAN! Now what SJ!
! SJE: We want more Goku. Kids love Goku!! Bring him back...
! T: FUCK! Fine I'll make him come back for one day. But don't fuck with my super hero concept.
! SJE: I'm not trying to change your script or anything...but we want an actual antagonist...and a cool one like CELL:wub:!! And take Gohan out...MORE GOKU:wub:!!
! T: ...What...You want a cool antagonist ....FINE!! THIS GUY CAN'T DIE! HIS BODY ABSORBS ALL DAMAGE and you know what HE'S FAT AND PINK AND WEARS A DIAPER TOO! GOHAN'S GONE, AND FUCK IY VEGETA TOO! And to top it all off Goku's day is up so there! It's up to two little kids to save the world. I've finally fucked up my story to the point where they have to fire me!
! SJE: Fine we'll accept that two kids have to save the day, but make the antagonist look cooler like CELL:wub::wub:!
! T: ...Fine...He's slim and muscular now...now I'm gonna have him fight the kids in the time chamber and make this the final battle so I can end my series.
! SJE: MAKE THE FIGHT MORE DRAMATIC!!!
! T: FINE! Boo kills all the people in the world! And you want more drama? I'll have the kids turn SSJ3!!! Something it took Goku the whole series to accomplish and have them do it in two weeks! I'm ending this battle now!
! SJE: Doesn't Gotenks have a time limit....
! T: Heh heh I knew you would catch that..That's why I made a back up plan with Gohan. Now Gohan will walk in his fathers footsteps and END this battle. OK?
! SJE: Make the antagonist look cooler like CELL:wub::wub::wub::wub:!!!
! T: FINE!!!!!! I'll pull a move out of my ASS and have Boo have a absorbsion technique that allows him to absorb and become who he absorbs! He's cool now! Gohan vs Boo for the win. I'm ending this now.
! SJE: WE WANT MORE GOKU:wub::wub::wub::wub::wub:!!!
! T: ...................Fine... There I'll bring him back to life... but to end the story my way I'm going to have Goku fuse with Gohan and have a final battle with Boo to end...
! SJE: Fusion is dumb, get tid of Gohan, GOKU VS BOO!!
! T: ....Fine. Gohan's gone. Goku vs Boo. Happy?
! SJE: Actuallly, Fusion is cool! You know what would be funny? Have him fuse with Vegeta!!
! T: ...Fuck it...there you go..now can I end it?
! SJE: Actuallly, Fusion is dumb, um-fuse them...and make the antagonist look cooler like:wub::wub::wub:
! T: FUUUUUCCCCKKKK THHHHIIISSSS!!!!! YOU WANT COOL? YOU WANT DRAMATIC? FINE! BOO'S A FUCKING RETARD LITTLE KID THAT DOESN'T EVEN KNOW HOW TO THINK NOW!! AND YOU WANT DRAMA??? HE BLEW UP THE EARTH! HAPPY???
! SJE: ...this is the best idea you've ever come up with...make love to me I'm yours:wub:
! T: ...You know what...I'm ending this....Final battle in heaven, Goku/Vegeta fs Boo...DONE! Manga over. Finish!
! SJE: THE KIDS LOVED your last ark! You should make one m...
! T: I quit SJ. I'm done. I tried every means possible to fuck up my story but I give up..The money was good but it's over..The end..
! SJE: But we LOVE Dragonball. What about the story?
! T: Do whatever you want with it. Give it to TOEI and have them do it..make Goku a kid again or something, have him transform into a shirtless man with red fur all over his body I DON'T CARE! I'm going home to bang my wife.
! SJE: You know what...that concept isn't a bad idea..TOEI! -
I've always had this vision in my head for the past 5 years that Toriyama purposely wante to sabatoge his last story to get fired from sj. I wrote this a long time ago so enjoy.
! Toriyama: Those jerks at SJ wanted me to continue my story after I wanted to end it after my planet namek ark. Well after how much I fucked up my android ark they will have to fire me now! heh heh
! SJ Editor: THE KIDS LOVED your last ark! You should make one more! Don't end it here!
! T: Fuck….FINE! I got the perfect idea! The story will be set many years after Gohan killed Cell. He will be going to highschool! Oh I know what will fuck this up more! He will be a SUPER HERO TOO! I'll call him GREAT SAIYAMAN! Now what SJ!
! SJE: We want more Goku. Kids love Goku!! Bring him back...
! T: FUCK! Fine I'll make him come back for one day. But don't fuck with my super hero concept.
! SJE: I'm not trying to change your script or anything...but we want an actual antagonist...and a cool one like CELL:wub:!! And take Gohan out...MORE GOKU:wub:!!
! T: ...What...You want a cool antagonist ....FINE!! THIS GUY CAN'T DIE! HIS BODY ABSORBS ALL DAMAGE and you know what HE'S FAT AND PINK AND WEARS A DIAPER TOO! GOHAN'S GONE, AND FUCK IY VEGETA TOO! And to top it all off Goku's day is up so there! It's up to two little kids to save the world. I've finally fucked up my story to the point where they have to fire me!
! SJE: Fine we'll accept that two kids have to save the day, but make the antagonist look cooler like CELL:wub::wub:!
! T: ...Fine...He's slim and muscular now...now I'm gonna have him fight the kids in the time chamber and make this the final battle so I can end my series.
! SJE: MAKE THE FIGHT MORE DRAMATIC!!!
! T: FINE! Boo kills all the people in the world! And you want more drama? I'll have the kids turn SSJ3!!! Something it took Goku the whole series to accomplish and have them do it in two weeks! I'm ending this battle now!
! SJE: Doesn't Gotenks have a time limit....
! T: Heh heh I knew you would catch that..That's why I made a back up plan with Gohan. Now Gohan will walk in his fathers footsteps and END this battle. OK?
! SJE: Make the antagonist look cooler like CELL:wub::wub::wub::wub:!!!
! T: FINE!!!!!! I'll pull a move out of my ASS and have Boo have a absorbsion technique that allows him to absorb and become who he absorbs! He's cool now! Gohan vs Boo for the win. I'm ending this now.
! SJE: WE WANT MORE GOKU:wub::wub::wub::wub::wub:!!!
! T: ...................Fine... There I'll bring him back to life... but to end the story my way I'm going to have Goku fuse with Gohan and have a final battle with Boo to end...
! SJE: Fusion is dumb, get tid of Gohan, GOKU VS BOO!!
! T: ....Fine. Gohan's gone. Goku vs Boo. Happy?
! SJE: Actuallly, Fusion is cool! You know what would be funny? Have him fuse with Vegeta!!
! T: ...Fuck it...there you go..now can I end it?
! SJE: Actuallly, Fusion is dumb, um-fuse them...and make the antagonist look cooler like:wub::wub::wub:
! T: FUUUUUCCCCKKKK THHHHIIISSSS!!!!! YOU WANT COOL? YOU WANT DRAMATIC? FINE! BOO'S A FUCKING RETARD LITTLE KID THAT DOESN'T EVEN KNOW HOW TO THINK NOW!! AND YOU WANT DRAMA??? HE BLEW UP THE EARTH! HAPPY???
! SJE: ...this is the best idea you've ever come up with...make love to me I'm yours:wub:
! T: ...You know what...I'm ending this....Final battle in heaven, Goku/Vegeta fs Boo...DONE! Manga over. Finish!
! SJE: THE KIDS LOVED your last ark! You should make one m...
! T: I quit SJ. I'm done. I tried every means possible to fuck up my story but I give up..The money was good but it's over..The end..
! SJE: But we LOVE Dragonball. What about the story?
! T: Do whatever you want with it. Give it to TOEI and have them do it..make Goku a kid again or something, have him transform into a shirtless man with red fur all over his body I DON'T CARE! I'm going home to bang my wife.
! SJE: You know what...that concept isn't a bad idea..TOEI!Thank you. I think that perfectly sums up why I hate the Boo saga.
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Toriyama should of done something more with Dabura, that's my only gripe.
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Toriyama should of done something more with Dabura, that's my only gripe.
Dabura had a cool concept…until he became the cookie monster.
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I like the Buu arc personally. It's a crazy action arc with a lot of comedy and fantasy elements…which essentialy was what DB was before the Saiyan and Frieza and Cell arcs utterly forgot that. I still say that Toriyama was more like "screw it: if I have to keep this going, I might as well do what I want instead of just the same stuff repeated from the last three arcs".
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Buu arc was fun. I can see how it might seem like a jarring change of style to anyone that skipped the first 10 volumes of Dragonball, but it was a refreshing return to form and Toriyama enjoying himself again… (and I really liked the Gohan in High School stuff. It was different and a change of pace and Toriyama trying something new... but didn't actually last all that long in the manga.) Shame that there were obvious concessions to the fan demand for Goku when Gohan really should have finished it.
Its like I often say. Buu arc woulda been better suited as an early series villain... before the characters were cracking planets in half and killing gods by accident.
The Cell arc is the one I care the least about... and were the last volumes I bought.
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The Buu arc is great up till the point where Buu absorbs Gohan. After that it becomes really bad, worse than the Cell arc, and never really recovers. The only thing noteworthy is Vegeta admitting Goku is #1, but that's pretty much it.
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The Buu arc is great up till the point where Buu absorbs Gohan. After that it becomes really bad, worse than the Cell arc, and never really recovers. The only thing noteworthy is Vegeta admitting Goku is #1, but that's pretty much it.
Buu arc lost me when Videl died. Then as a kick in the nuts Gohan died too. Therefore ruining Videl's speech about Gohan still being alive and the totally awesome reunion.
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The Buu arc is great up till the point where Buu absorbs Gohan. After that it becomes really bad, worse than the Cell arc, and never really recovers. The only thing noteworthy is Vegeta admitting Goku is #1, but that's pretty much it.
There… wasn't a whole lot after that. In the manga at least, Vegetto was pretty close to the end, there were maybe 10 chapters after that, which included the 4 chapter spirit bomb sequence and the aftermath party. It's all Vegeta and Goku interplay during that time.
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Somehow I liked some of the silly stuff that came even after Gohan died, like (even though it was just anime) Vegetto the rebellious candy ball and the fact that Mr. Satan was the key to coaxing the world into allowing Goku to finish the final Genki Dama. (and that for the most part he took all the credit for saving the world…I still say that if Bleach ever gets to that point, Don Kanonji should just be the front in "saving all humanity from that ultimate supernatural threat" [regardless of whom kills Aizen…or whatever])
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One thing that gets me is how the constant continuation of the story kinda wrecked the ending. Frieza was good, I'm assuming their would have been an epilogue or something. Cell was good, I love how Goku ends his life and passes the torch to his son. This would have been an ideal end to the series.
Then Buu? Gohan quits, Vegeta's out and Goku knows he can't be around forever. So they apparently get Buu reincarnated (which I had no idea they could do) and have Goku train him to be the world's next defender since, c'mon, this world have been nearly annihilated like 5 times now and destroyed once. It'd decent in theory, now a native human has the potential to defend the world. Of course, since it's a new and kind of dumb looking character it doesn't make for a satisfying conclusion.
But I love what GT die with their ending, it's funny in a bad way. Ubb (or Ubbu, whatever) got curb stomped so quickly cause I guess no one liked him, leaving no one to defend the earth which in GT has been destroyed twice now. So what do they do? Well, since apparently everyone else is useless, apparently Goku just decides to be immortal! Yep, that's what I got from that last episode. Everyone's useless and the hero of earth doesn't get any closure or peace. Thanks DBZ fans, you got exactly what you wanted!
I'm also annoyed with what they did with Pan. There is no good reason she shouldn't have gone super saiyan. Or been a likable character for that matter.
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One thing that gets me is how the constant continuation of the story kinda wrecked the ending. Frieza was good, I'm assuming their would have been an epilogue or something. Cell was good, I love how Goku ends his life and passes the torch to his son. This would have been an ideal end to the series.
Then Buu? Gohan quits, Vegeta's out and Goku knows he can't be around forever. So they apparently get Buu reincarnated (which I had no idea they could do) and have Goku train him to be the world's next defender since, c'mon, this world have been nearly annihilated like 5 times now and destroyed once. It'd decent in theory, now a native human has the potential to defend the world. Of course, since it's a new and kind of dumb looking character it doesn't make for a satisfying conclusion.
But I love what GT die with their ending, it's funny in a bad way. Ubb (or Ubbu, whatever) got curb stomped so quickly cause I guess no one liked him, leaving no one to defend the earth which in GT has been destroyed twice now. So what do they do? Well, since apparently everyone else is useless, apparently Goku just decides to be immortal! Yep, that's what I got from that last episode. Everyone's useless and the hero of earth doesn't get any closure or peace. Thanks DBZ fans, you got exactly what you wanted!
I'm also annoyed with what they did with Pan. There is no good reason she shouldn't have gone super saiyan. Or been a likable character for that matter.
Sometimes I like to pretend GT never exsisted. It's like if the anime team continued the Onepiece story after Oda finishes it in the manga. It's just dumb.
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The only thing i liked in GT was the last episode and Gogeta Super Sayan 4.
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girlz cant b super saiyen!!!!
Gogeta Super Sayan 4
I too am a big fan of downright retarded character designs.
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@robbybedfart:
There… wasn't a whole lot after that. In the manga at least, Vegetto was pretty close to the end, there were maybe 10 chapters after that, which included the 4 chapter spirit bomb sequence and the aftermath party. It's all Vegeta and Goku interplay during that time.
Yet, so much wrong is contained in those last couple of chapters.
- Gohan's build-up was for naught. He is absorbed because he couldn't catch an earring. Err…
- Instead of just killing Buu and wishing everyone back, Vegetto makes up some kind of convoluted plan to save just four people.
- Above convoluted plan was pointless anyway, because Kid Buu blows up the Earth anyway
- Kid Buu is the worst main villain in Dragon Ball canon. Even Cell had a sliver of personality, but Kid Buu was just all about destroying stuff. Terrible final villain
- Old Kaioshin tells everyone they shouldn't use the Dragon Balls because they need to solve their own problems. Cool, but the fact they use the Dragon Balls a couple of chapters later kind of compeltely defeats the point
- Goku tells Vegeta he could've beaten Fat Buu if he wanted to, but he didn't because he wanted the next generation to solve their own problems. Then Goku casually goes on to become the hero again.
- Instead of just wishing Gohan and Gotenks to the Kaioshin planet, who are leagues ahead of Kid Buu and Goku on their own, let alone when they work together, Vegeta decides a Genki Dama would be the perfect solution. An idea that was bound to fail.
- Luckily for everyone the Namek Dragon Balls still exist. Oh, wait they still have to gathe- oh wait Muuri knew they were coming. Okay, but what about the fact you can only wish one pers- oh! That's been taken care of too. Cool.
- In the epilogue we find out everyone slacks, because Goku is there anyway. Wait... wasn't this exactly what Goku was trying to prevent the last 200 or so chapters?
- Oob is a character that appears in two chapters, yet goes on the become Goku's ultimate successor. Why should I care about random poor kid?
That's a whole lot of bad for 20 or so chapters.
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Well, while we're on the topic, here's the top 10 things I hated about the Boo saga.
10. Gohan dating Mr. Satan's daughter: Now, keep in mind, I don't hate this so much as it just irks me. Don't get me wrong, I think Mr. Satan is a very funny character and is awesome in his own unique, but I just don't think he belongs anywhere near Goku's gene pool. But on the plus side, Videl is pretty hot, and I suppose there are worse fates in life than having Mr. Satan as a father-in-law.
9. Fusion: Well, that just came out of nowhere, didn't it? Cheap gimmicky powerup that raises a lot of physiological questions. I really don't have too much to say about it.
8. Boo himself: Boo is an enigma to me. So I guess he's just some retarded man-child that kills for the sake of killing? I don't know, he just seemed really out of place amongst the other DBZ villains, and he didn't really do much for me. Also, he was kind of just Cell Mk. II. "This guy can be blasted to vapors and he'll still regenerate, and now instead of just absorbing androids he can absorb anyone!"
7. Super Saiyan 3: Yeah, it had to be on here. Okay, this is just going too far Toriyama. I mean, look at that ridiculous hair! I think it was at this point that AT had come to realize how stupid the SS concept was and made it into an actual parody of itself. Not to mention Goku just sort of farted it out of nowhere after the whole Cell saga had led up to the SSJ2, which everyone was trying so desperately hard to obtain.
6. Everybody dies: So I guess this was AT's idea to show how truly evil Boo was. Other villains had threatened it, but Boo was the one that put his money where his mouth was and killed pretty much everyone, including the entire population of Earth. Okay, I guess it doesn't bother me too much, but it just seems really depressing and unnecessary. I mean, we all know they're going to be brought back to life at the end anyway. But more importantly, I think it was just a very shallow method of Toriyama trying to step up his game for the final villain by having him kill everyone.
5. Toriyama ruined Gohan's character: I don't know what it is. I don't know if it's the short hair, or that Toriyama gave him a weird high school subplot, or that he became a superhero for absolutely no reason, or that he got that dumb "mystic" powerup that stopped him from going SSJ again, or that new dub voice that Funi gave him, or maybe it's all of the above. But whatever it is, Gohan lost all the appeal for me that he once had.
4. The extremely tacked on ending: I might be cheating here since one could say that isn't really part of the Boo saga and is really just ending to the whole series. But it does tie in to the Boo saga, so I think it's fair game.
As far as endings for an iconic and legendary series go, this one was pretty underwhelming. I suppose it wasn't too bad. We got to see all the characters after they've aged quite a few years (I didn't really like Goten's adult look thouugh) we got to see Gohan's daughter Pan, and we got to revisit the good ol' World Martial Arts Tournament. But the thing that bugged me the most, and I think you all know what it is, was Oob.
So apparently Boo was reincarnated (a concept that had never been alluded to before in the series) as a human, and he's just as strong as Boo…just because? I'm sorry, but even if this is reincarnation, there is no way a human should just be born that strong, or that he should be able to obtain that level of power in just a few years. Humans have been shown throughout the series to not be very combat-inclined. I think the strongest any human got (before Oob) was Krillin, and we all now how he turned out. But apparantly humans can just be strong if they're the reincarnation of some demonic pink blob thing. Yeah, stupid.
3. Goten and Trunks: My god what a couple of irritating twerps. These are the dumbest, brattiest, most infantile and immature characters I've ever seen in this series. "Oh," but you say, "a lot of kids are like that." Yeah, juvenile delinquents are like that. These are kids who were raised by decent respectable people (though Vegeta is questionable) who should've taught them to not overestimate themselves and to not be cocky on the battlefield. And what about Gohan? He was never as bratty or as overconfident as them, and that's one of the reasons I liked him so much. So yeah, Goten and Trunks had absolutely no appeal to me personality-wise. Not to mention they were ridiculously and unfairly overpowered, which leads me to my next point.
2. Toriyama ruined SSJ: Remember when Goku first went Super Saiyan? Remember all the build up and foreshadowing to it and how hard to push himself and all the emotional turmoil he went through before he reached that legendary status? Well, now it's nothing more than a basic powerup. Apparently you can get it just by training with Chi Chi now. "Hey Gohan! Remember that Super Saiyan thing that you struggled so hard to obtain? Well, your little bro was able to get just by training with your mom. No emotional catharsis necessary."
1. The complete retconning of the theme from the previous saga: You know what I'm talking about. The idea that the title of protector of earth will be passed down from father to son. That the new generation will pick up where the old generation left off, and perhaps be even better? Yeah, I guess you can throw that right the fuck out the window.
You know, I think I could forgive everything else in this arc. I could forgive everbody dying, Goten and Trunks and the ruining of the SS concept, if only AT hadn't brought Goku back. Everything in this arc was passable right up until Boo absorbed Gohan. What the hell was that?! Now, I know a lot of people didn't like the Cell saga (personally, I liked it) but you have to admit that that was at least a pretty cool theme and we finally did get a payoff to Gohan's hidden potential that had been foreshadowed since the start of DBZ. But nope, I guess all that this arc teaches us is that Goku our one true savior. The alpha and omega and without him we're screwed. Lord knows we can't leave the future of the planet in the hands of a half-breed.
You know what would've been great is if, instead of absorbing Gohan, Boo had absorbed Goku. Thus, with him having to overcome not only Boo, but his own father's strenght as well, it could have served as a true testament to the idea that Gohan has truly surpassed his father.
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The only thing that I liked about gt was the concept of the evil dragons, not the execution, nor their designs.
That the power that had keept the earth "safe" for so long had an hidden price.
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Nobodyman, I liked most of the stuff or am indifferent to what you mentioned.
10: I thought it was kind of fun to have Gohan's father in law be the man who stole his glory seven years back
9: Gotenks was one of the greatest characters ever
8: Boo was great. Fat Boo and Super Boo that is. The rest sucked. They brought the charm back to the series.
7: Seemed like Toriyama was parodying his own story. It was fun.
6: I agree with this
5: Massive disagree. Toriyama seemed to have reverted Gohan to his pre-Cell Games mentality. It only seems logical that the kid who was sheltered and studied all the time, but also wanted to help people out would become an awkward high school kid/superhero
4: Agree. Everything about the epilogue sucked
3: I love Goten and Trunks. They are like a little Goku and Vegeta and their antics always amused me
2: Indifferent
1: Massive agree. -
@JERK:
I too am a big fan of downright retarded character designs.
Yeah his design was retarded but i always liked the way he joked around in a serious battle like Vegetto did in the Buu saga.
Except Vegetto did it for a reason but eh.
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Yet, so much wrong is contained in those last couple of chapters.
- Gohan's build-up was for naught. He is absorbed because he couldn't catch an earring. Err…
Its called a plot twist. Goten and Trunk's build up was for naught too. And so was Piccollo's attempt to trap Buu in the room of Spirit and Time. So were a whole bunch of other last resort plans. The fact that they HAD backup plans meant things were bound to go wrong, such is the nature of dramatic writing.
It'd be kind of boring if the first plan worked and all the other characters then shrugged and went "Oh well. So much for MY desperate training attempt!"
- Instead of just killing Buu and wishing everyone back, Vegetto makes up some kind of convoluted plan to save just four people.
Dragonball resurrections have limits. If they couldn't turn aside a couple of Saiyins, or make androids human again, I think they would have had trouble defusing absorbed elements of a demigod. Anyone that Buu had eaten would have stayed eaten.
- Above convoluted plan was pointless anyway, because Kid Buu blows up the Earth anyway
But their FAMILY MEMBERS were no longer in Buu's stomach as part of his eternal essence.
- Kid Buu is the worst main villain in Dragon Ball canon. Even Cell had a sliver of personality, but Kid Buu was just all about destroying stuff.
Personal tastes. I think the little berserker ball of hate was a fun change of pace after all the egotistical aarogant types. Hfil, fat buu was blatantly breaking expectations and type as well when he was first released.
- Old Kaioshin tells everyone they shouldn't use the Dragon Balls because they need to solve their own problems. Cool, but the fact they use the Dragon Balls a couple of chapters later kind of compeltely defeats the point
To fix an uber beyond reckoning problem of the gods he didn't deal with millenia ago, that he sealed within the earth.
He was saying "stop using the damn dragonballs to make a magical pair of panties or reviving one indian guy" not "stop using them to save the entire universe by aiding your own natural ability"
Goku tells Vegeta he could've beaten Fat Buu if he wanted to, but he didn't because he wanted the next generation to solve their own problems. Then Goku casually goes on to become the hero again.
Goku gauged Buu's strength and knew a fused Goten and Trunks could handle it in the next couple hours, and the fragonballs would fix the collatoral. I don't see how Buu unexpectedly absorbing other powers should have been within Goku's estimation at that point.
- Instead of just wishing Gohan and Gotenks to the Kaioshin planet, who are leagues ahead of Kid Buu and Goku on their own, let alone when they work together,
Every overpowering physical beatdown had failed at that point. Even blowing buu to millions of tiny pieces didn't finish him.
Vegeta decides a Genki Dama would be the perfect solution. An idea that was bound to fail.
uhm… it worked.
- Luckily for everyone the Namek Dragon Balls still exist. Oh, wait they still have to gathe- oh wait Muuri knew they were coming. Okay, but what about the fact you can only wish one pers- oh! That's been taken care of too. Cool.
Ignoring the facts that Kaio (and the other gods!) allowing between world communication went back as far as Raditz, and changing the Dragonball rules with a new namekian in charge was established during Cell.
They were stretching the rules with loopholes, sure, but no more than saying "well what if Elder Guru died from stress instead of injury, could he get a few extra hours if we cheat on that?"
In the epilogue we find out everyone slacks, because Goku is there anyway. Wait… wasn't this exactly what Goku was trying to prevent the last 200 or so chapters?
What, you want Goku to commit suicide or stop training at that point?
- Oob is a character that appears in two chapters, yet goes on the become Goku's ultimate successor. Why should I care about random poor kid?
Because it ties back into Goku being a kid from the boonies who was trained by Roshi. It wasn't about Uub, it was about Goku seeing someone like himself. Its a full circle thing.
Its not fair to hold the results of GT against that ending.
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1. The complete retconning of the theme from the previous saga: You know what I'm talking about. The idea that the title of protector of earth will be passed down from father to son. That the new generation will pick up where the old generation left off, and perhaps be even better? Yeah, I guess you can throw that right the fuck out the window.
You know, I think I could forgive everything else in this arc. I could forgive everbody dying, Goten and Trunks and the ruining of the SS concept, if only AT hadn't brought Goku back. Everything in this arc was passable right up until Boo absorbed Gohan. What the hell was that?! Now, I know a lot of people didn't like the Cell saga (personally, I liked it) but you have to admit that that was at least a pretty cool theme and we finally did get a payoff to Gohan's hidden potential that had been foreshadowed since the start of DBZ. But nope, I guess all that this arc teaches us is that Goku our one true savior. The alpha and omega and without him we're screwed. Lord knows we can't leave the future of the planet in the hands of a half-breed.
You know what would've been great is if, instead of absorbing Gohan, Boo had absorbed Goku. Thus, with him having to overcome not only Boo, but his own father's strenght as well, it could have served as a true testament to the idea that Gohan has truly surpassed his father.
Completely disagree.
Gohan wasn't a born warrior, and never cared to fight, he fought for survival or to protect the earth, he just enjoyed the Cell battle when he was kicking him around. And that time was treated as a huge mistake because it lead to Goku's death.
So, then the defender of the earth was someone responsable, who didn't like his job to fight. It didn't sit well for me then, and even less now.
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One thing that gets me is how the constant continuation of the story kinda wrecked the ending. Frieza was good, I'm assuming their would have been an epilogue or something. Cell was good, I love how Goku ends his life and passes the torch to his son. This would have been an ideal end to the series.
Then Buu? Gohan quits, Vegeta's out and Goku knows he can't be around forever. So they apparently get Buu reincarnated (which I had no idea they could do) and have Goku train him to be the world's next defender since, c'mon, this world have been nearly annihilated like 5 times now and destroyed once. It'd decent in theory, now a native human has the potential to defend the world. Of course, since it's a new and kind of dumb looking character it doesn't make for a satisfying conclusion.
But I love what GT die with their ending, it's funny in a bad way. Ubb (or Ubbu, whatever) got curb stomped so quickly cause I guess no one liked him, leaving no one to defend the earth which in GT has been destroyed twice now. So what do they do? Well, since apparently everyone else is useless, apparently Goku just decides to be immortal! Yep, that's what I got from that last episode. Everyone's useless and the hero of earth doesn't get any closure or peace. Thanks DBZ fans, you got exactly what you wanted!
I'm also annoyed with what they did with Pan. There is no good reason she shouldn't have gone super saiyan. Or been a likable character for that matter.
I loved the ending of GT .
I also liked the series as a whole . I dunno , it felt a bit refreshing .
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The thing that bothers me about Gohan is how he got multiple latent power. It was first coined in Saiyan saga and we get to see his latent power unleashed by the Elder of Namek in Frieza saga. He got stronger, cool. Then he got his latent power being unleashed again when he transformed into Super Saiyan 2 in Cell saga. Okay. Then he got his latent power being unleashed AGAIN in Buu saga. Seriously, how many latent power he got anyway? It really obvious that Toriyama really wanted to make Gohan a main character but the fans/editors doesn't want it.
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Honestly if Gohan was the main character , it would have made the series better .
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9: Gotenks was one of the greatest characters ever
Well, he was pretty much responsible for Bulma and Krillin and Videl and co.'s deaths, so yeah, I find him difficult to like.
5: Massive disagree. Toriyama seemed to have reverted Gohan to his pre-Cell Games mentality. It only seems logical that the kid who was sheltered and studied all the time, but also wanted to help people out would become an awkward high school kid/superhero
Different strokes I guess. I thought it was stupid.
Completely disagree.
Gohan wasn't a born warrior, and never cared to fight, he fought for survival or to protect the earth, he just enjoyed the Cell battle when he was kicking him around. And that time was treated as a huge mistake because it lead to Goku's death.
So, then the defender of the earth was someone responsable, who didn't like his job to fight. It didn't sit well for me then, and even less now.
I don't think that necessarily means he's not qualified for the job. A staple of many Shonen characters is that they don't like to fight, but they must do it for the ones they love. After all, someone who loves fighting to the extent to they seek it out is no good, as is one who absolutely refuses to find. There needs to be a medium between the two.
And no, Gohan wasn't perfect. That one instance of cockiness (which I felt was kinda OOC) did cost his fahter his life, but peopl learn from their mistakes. Gohan was still young and one could assume that he would have his own trials and tribulations and become a stronger person because of it. True, he is more reluctant to fight than his father, but at the end of the day he did become stronger than him and he did defeat Cell.
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@No:
Honestly if Gohan was the main character , it would have made the series better .
Gohan was a pushover, most of what he did on the whole plot of the Buu saga (counting his time as a grown up) was to obey whatever someone else told him.
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Well, he was pretty much responsible for Bulma and Krillin and Videl and co.'s deaths, so yeah, I find him difficult to like.
This is hypocrital.
Under your logic Picolo caused the death of every human on earth.
Vegeta distracted the forces meant to take care of Buu before his awakening, so, every death caused by Buu was his responsibility.
Gohan's mistake especificaly to NOT kill the villian ASAP caused the death of Goku and Trunks.
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This is hypocrital.
Under your logic Picolo caused the death of every human on earth.
Vegeta distracted the forces meant to take care of Buu before his awakening, so, every death caused by Buu was his responsibility.
Gohan's mistake especificaly to NOT kill the villian ASAP caused the death of Goku and Trunks.
True, and I retract my statement. It's just…Gotenks...
SO DAMN COCKY!!!
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Gohan was a pushover, most of what he did on the whole plot of the Buu saga (counting his time as a grown up) was to obey whatever someone else told him.
It would have given some sense of a story to the whole thing for me , I dunno , the formula just got old for me after Cell .
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Well, while we're on the topic, here's the top 10 things I hated about the Boo saga.
10. Gohan dating Mr. Satan's daughter:
I liked the irony there. Especially since she had like, none of Satan's qualities.
9. Fusion: Well, that just came out of nowhere, didn't it? Cheap gimmicky powerup that raises a lot of physiological questions. I really don't have too much to say about it.
So did super power water, tri-form, flying, kaio-ken, solar flare, Piccollo's destructo beam, Krillin's destructo disk, super saiyin, and instantaneous movement. These guys learned stuff off camera during time skips. Especially Goku when studying with crazy aliens.
Can't call the one arc out for something it had done all along.
8. Boo himself: Boo is an enigma to me. So I guess he's just some retarded man-child that kills for the sake of killing?
Different type of villain. Change of pace, playing against expectations. Would you have preferred ANOTHER effeminate egotistical villain confident in their power above all others? Hey, he did that after he absorbed Gotenks and Piccollo.
7. Super Saiyan 3: I think it was at this point that AT had come to realize how stupid the SS concept was and made it into an actual parody of itself.
The escalating power levels left no real outs at that point. Frieza was the point of no return, really, since he forced everyone else to have to catch up when the Cell saga came around.
6. Everybody dies: So I guess this was AT's idea to show how truly evil Boo was.
Again, escalating power levels. That was the next natural step in the chain. Piccollo, Nappa and Cell did cities, Vegeta and Frieza did planets, Buu did entire populations.
5. Toriyama ruined Gohan's character: I don't know what it is. I don't know if it's the short hair, or that Toriyama gave him a weird high school subplot, or that he became a superhero for absolutely no reason, or that he got that dumb "mystic" powerup that stopped him from going SSJ again, or that new dub voice that Funi gave him, or maybe it's all of the above. But whatever it is, Gohan lost all the appeal for me that he once had.
Personal taste there. Can't argue for or against it. I thought the high school stuff, actual romantic suplot, and superman parody was some of the most FUN in the series in a while, though it was obviously cut short by fan demand to bring Goku back and fans not being ready for something that different. Its pretty clear Toriyama wanted to do one thing, another style of story, and his fans (and editor) demanded he do another. Thus the sudden switch over to tournament and Goku's one more day buisness as usual. We'll never know where he was planning to really go with that material.
As for Mystic mode, the lack of hair turning blonde was refreshing at that point.
4. The extremely tacked on ending: I might be cheating here since one could say that isn't really part of the Boo saga and is really just ending to the whole series. But it does tie in to the Boo saga, so I think it's fair game.
But the thing that bugged me the most, and I think you all know what it is, was Oob.
That was about Goku going full circle, taking in a boonies kid and training him, becoming a teacher himself, nothing more, nothing less. It wasn't about Uub.
So apparently Boo was reincarnated (a concept that had never been alluded to before in the series) as a human, and he's just as strong as Boo…just because? I'm sorry, but even if this is reincarnation, there is no way a human should just be born that strong, or that he should be able to obtain that level of power in just a few years. Humans have been shown throughout the series to not be very combat-inclined. I think the strongest any human got (before Oob) was Krillin, and we all now how he turned out. But apparantly humans can just be strong if they're the reincarnation of some demonic pink blob thing. Yeah, stupid.
In a series where the cast regularly died, then interacted with gods, became stronger than gods, and then continued fighting while dead, where a big deal was made about Goku keeping his body to train in heaven with, where theres a giant guy at a desk who stamps paperwork letting people into heaven or hell, where Piccollo Sr. spat out an egg and that managed to count as enough of his own essance to allow Kami to keep living? Reincarnation bothers you? When Goku basically asked it as a favor from the gods after saving their collective asses?
Also, Tien was the strongest human, Krillin just kept getting screentime as Goku's buddy.
3. Goten and Trunks: My god what a couple of irritating twerps. These are the dumbest, brattiest, most infantile and immature characters I've ever seen in this series.
They're not as bad in the manga, the anime made them a lot worse. But yeah, they had problems.
These are kids who were raised by decent respectable people (though Vegeta is questionable) who should've taught them to not overestimate themselves and to not be cocky on the battlefield.
Even though Vegeta IN EVERY BATTLE HE WAS IN EVER, was cocky? Even though Gohan after going Super 2 was cocky? After Goku was assured he could beat any foe he faced from the start of the series no matter how much stronger they were than him or people telling him he shouldn't go fight them? After fusion especially? All Saiyins were cocky. That wasn't a trait for just Goten and Trunks.
Can't call the one arc out for something it had done all along.
And what about Gohan? He was never as bratty or as overconfident as them, and that's one of the reasons I liked him so much.
Chichi raised him to be a scholar. You think she might have raised Goten a bit different after Goku died, twice, and Gohan saving the world became a clearer importance?
Or you know. Not all children are the same. Plus, Goten was pretty polite and quiet when he WASN'T with Trunks.
2. Toriyama ruined SSJ: Apparently you can get it just by training with Chi Chi now. "Hey Gohan! Remember that Super Saiyan thing that you struggled so hard to obtain? Well, your little bro was able to get just by training with your mom. No emotional catharsis necessary."
Common fan theory is going Super tweaked the genetics to make it easier to pass on. Also, that the Saiyin genetics from sheerly hanging around these powerhouses made it easier to adapt. These guys were jumping power levels by millions of points within minutes against Frieza, when their power had been in the thousands before that, after all. Gohan did it in a couple months after he had an actual Super Saiyin to train with, after all.
1. The complete retconning of the theme from the previous saga: You know what I'm talking about. The idea that the title of protector of earth will be passed down from father to son. That the new generation will pick up where the old generation left off, and perhaps be even better?
It wasn't a good role for Gohan though. He did it because he needed to, not because he enjoyed it.
And that theme WAS intact by the end when Goku went off to train Uub.
But nope, I guess all that this arc teaches us is that Goku our one true savior. The alpha and omega and without him we're screwed. Lord knows we can't leave the future of the planet in the hands of a half-breed.
To be fair, without Goku, Raditz and Vegeta never would have gone to Earth, neither would Frieza. The androids would have remained around the level of #8, and Buu would have taken much much much longer to re-awaken. A lot of those villains were Goku's fault, as he himself noted.
You know what would've been great is if, instead of absorbing Gohan, Boo had absorbed Goku. Thus, with him having to overcome not only Boo, but his own father's strenght as well, it could have served as a true testament to the idea that Gohan has truly surpassed his father.
Yes, that would have been better. But fans had already declared they wanted Goku, that was obviously an editorial edict rather than an author choice in several instances where Gohan was being pushed to the front and then denied. There's not much forgiving Toriyama on that one, other than it was sheer blatant bowing down to the fans.
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@robbybedfart:
Also, Tien was the strongest human, Krillin just kept getting screentime as Goku's buddy.
I always wondered why the hell there was a debate about this back when I used to go to the Atari community forums.
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@robbybedfart:
That was about Goku going full circle, nothing more, nothing less.
In the most ass way possible.
In a series where the cast regularly died, then interacted with gods, became stronger than gods, and then continued fighting while dead, where a big deal was made about Goku keeping his body to train in heaven with, reincarnation bothers you? When Goku basically asked it as a favor from the gods?
It still seems like kind of an asspull to me. So Goku randsomly asks the gods "Hey, can you reincarnate this super powerful guy for me since my sons (and everyone else) fail so hard?"
Also, Tien was the strongest human, Krillin just kept getting screentime as Goku's buddy.
Ah, thank you, I wasn't sure about that. Tien needs more love.
They're not as bad in the manga, the anime made them a lot worse. But yeah, they had problems.
Haven't read the manga, but yeah they got on my nerves in the anime.
Even though Vegeta IN EVERY BATTLE HE WAS IN, was cocky? Even though Gohan after going Super 2 was cocky? After Goku was assured he could beat any foe he faced no matter how much stronger they were than him? After fusion especially? All Saiyins were cocky. That wasn't a trait for just Goten and Trunks.
Goten and Trunks were a different kind of cocky. In that they were consistently and overbearingly cocky. Vegeta started off as a villain, so it was understandable that he would be overconfident. Gohan vs. Cell was a one time thing. Goku? I can't remember, so I won't comment.
Chichi raised him to be a scholar. You think she might have raised Goten a bit different after Goku died, twice, and Gohan saving the world became a clearer importance?
That's no excuse. If anything, that's all the more reason that he should've learned not to overestimate his own skills on the battlefield.
Common fan theory is going Super tweaked the genetics to make it easier to pass on.
So turning SSJ changes Goku's DNA? Interesting.
Also, that the Saiyin genetics from sheerly hanging around these powerhouses made it easier to adapt. These guys were jumping power levels by millions of points within minutes against Frieza, when their power had been in the thousands before that, after all.
But Goten was training…with ChiChi! (if it's documented that he trained with Gohan any time before he taught him to fly, please let me know). Trunks I can kind of understand, but I still think it's kind of a stretch.
It wasn't a good role for Gohan though. He did it because he needed to, not because he enjoyed it.
I've addressed this already in a prior post, but here's my main gripe. Regardless of whether or not Gohan is truly qualified for the job, Toriyama had to make a decision. He could either A: let Goku defeat Cell and remain the protector of Earth or B: let Gohan defeat Cell and have him be the new protector. He went with B, but then he did the worst possible thing and went back on it in the Boo saga by having Goku become the protector once again. If he wants Goku to remain the main hero, fine. And if he wants Gohan to be the new hero, that's fine as well. But he can't do the latter and go back to the former.
And that theme WAS intact by the end when Goku went off to train Uub.
Which, again, was just stupid and random compared to letting Gohan handle things.
To be fair, without Goku, Raditz and Vegeta never would have gone to Earth, neither would Frieza. The androids would have remained around the level of #8, and Buu would have taken much much much longer to re-awaken. A lot of those villains were Goku's fault, as he himself noted.
Yeah, those were HIS adventures during HIS tenure as earth's protector. Gohan should've taken the helm and faced his own villains.
Yes, that would have been better. But fans had already declared they wanted Goku, that was obviously an editorial edict rather than an author choice. There's not much forgiving Toriyama on that one, other than it was sheer blatant bowing down to the fans.
Yep, that's why you should never listen to fans because, as we all know, they're idiots.
…...Wait.
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I always wondered why the hell there was a debate about this back when I used to go to the Atari community forums.
It's probably because of Yamcha statement to Krillin's daughter about Krillin being the strongest human on Buu saga .
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There's a good case to be made for Krillin being stronger than Tenshinhan after the Freeza saga and on.
Krillin had his power unlocked by the Grand Elder and was able to take on an opponent with a battle power of 23,000. Vegeta later said in the battle against Freeza that Krillin and Gohan's power was still rising. At this point Tenshinhan was training with Kaio. He was there for about twice as much time as Goku, who's power went up to over 8,000. Ten was there longer and had sparring partners, but he doesn't have the natural ability to improve that Goku has. Let's be lenient and say he goes to about 16,000.
In the Cell arc both Krillin and Ten train their hardest for the cyborgs and both probably improved evenly. Ten showed off his Shin Kikoho that was able to push Cell back, BUT it uses his life energy and not his actual ki. Krillin didn't do much fighting at all, aside from getting stomped by a Cell Jr. But the same happened to Ten. I'd say that the power difference after the Cell Games was the same, since there's nothing to suggest otherwise.
In the Buu saga we learn that Krillin stopped training, so this should be the moment where Ten should overtake Krillin. But the big question is: did Ten continue training? When we met the guy he trained to become an assassin. After that he trained to overcome Goku. When he gave this up at the end of the Freeza arc he trained to survive against the cyborgs. With no threat or motivation there's no reason for Ten to continue training. He's not a Saiyan, so he doesn't have the natural lust for battle. He might as well have been chillin' for seven years with Chaozu in the mountains.
Even if Ten is equal to Krillin, Krillin has proven he has much more battle smarts than Ten. In the tournaments Ten mostly used pointless attacks that were all countered easily by Goku. Krillin, on the other hand, was always able to put up a good battle aginst much stronger opponents because he used his head. Even Piccolo himself congratulated him on his strength. Against Nappa, Ten moronically tried to block an attack, which cost him his arm. Krillin, on the other hand dodged the attacks by Nappa.
Then there's Ten's (Shin) Kikoho. There's no doubt about it that if Krillin gets hit by one of these he's a goner. But Krillin's Kienzan is also a technique that can instantly do away with Ten.
Finally there's Yamcha's comment to Krillin's daughter, but he hasn't sensed Ten for seven years, so yeah. Also, it's Yamcha.
tl;dr: Krillin became stronger than Ten on Namek and his battle smarts far outdo Ten.
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So turning SSJ changes Goku's DNA? Interesting.
But Goten was training…with ChiChi! (if it's documented that he trained with Gohan any time before he taught him to fly, please let me know). Trunks I can kind of understand, but I still think it's kind of a stretch.
Actually, Trunks went Super Saiyan was also pretty out of nowhere because Vegeta himself was surprised when Trunks transformed when they were training together.
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pretty much all my friends disagree with me that the Buu arc is better than the Cell arc. I'm so alone
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@robbybedfart:
That was about Goku going full circle, taking in a boonies kid and training him, becoming a teacher himself, nothing more, nothing less. It wasn't about Uub.
Actually you couldn't be more wrong in this statement. Unlike most people who read Dragonball I loved the last chapter because it brought out Goku's true selfish personality. Through out the series Goku would always get excited to fight someone stronger then him. He asked if Boo would come back reincarnated in the hopes of him having the same power to challenge him again. When he faught Oob at the tournament he was disapointed that he didn't unleash his full potential so he offered to train him.
3 things can support this heavily.
1. Piccolo says he hasn't seen Goku so happy and excited in a long time.
2. Vegeta smiles and says this isn't about traing someone to protect the world.
3. Goku tells Oob it's exciting to meet someone strong and makes Oob promise to fight him.
Goku was always selfish in wanting to fight strong opponents, wanting to surpass. Know he's getting old. It wasn't about teaching a new kids from the boonies and making things full circle. It was about fighting a stronger person again and training Oob knowing he would get stronger.
N ow I may be looking to deep into this, but it was not about a full circle at all, it was about Goku caring about himself.
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There's a good case to be made for Krillin being stronger than Tenshinhan after the Freeza saga and on.
Krillin had his power unlocked by the Grand Elder and was able to take on an opponent with a battle power of 23,000. Vegeta later said in the battle against Freeza that Krillin and Gohan's power was still rising. At this point Tenshinhan was training with Kaio. He was there for about twice as much time as Goku, who's power went up to over 8,000. Ten was there longer and had sparring partners, but he doesn't have the natural ability to improve that Goku has. Let's be lenient and say he goes to about 16,000.
In the Cell arc both Krillin and Ten train their hardest for the cyborgs and both probably improved evenly. Ten showed off his Shin Kikoho that was able to push Cell back, BUT it uses his life energy and not his actual ki. Krillin didn't do much fighting at all, aside from getting stomped by a Cell Jr. But the same happened to Ten. I'd say that the power difference after the Cell Games was the same, since there's nothing to suggest otherwise.
In the Buu saga we learn that Krillin stopped training, so this should be the moment where Ten should overtake Krillin. But the big question is: did Ten continue training? When we met the guy he trained to become an assassin. After that he trained to overcome Goku. When he gave this up at the end of the Freeza arc he trained to survive against the cyborgs. With no threat or motivation there's no reason for Ten to continue training. He's not a Saiyan, so he doesn't have the natural lust for battle. He might as well have been chillin' for seven years with Chaozu in the mountains.
Even if Ten is equal to Krillin, Krillin has proven he has much more battle smarts than Ten. In the tournaments Ten mostly used pointless attacks that were all countered easily by Goku. Krillin, on the other hand, was always able to put up a good battle aginst much stronger opponents because he used his head. Even Piccolo himself congratulated him on his strength. Against Nappa, Ten moronically tried to block an attack, which cost him his arm. Krillin, on the other hand dodged the attacks by Nappa.
Then there's Ten's (Shin) Kikoho. There's no doubt about it that if Krillin gets hit by one of these he's a goner. But Krillin's Kienzan is also a technique that can instantly do away with Ten.
Finally there's Yamcha's comment to Krillin's daughter, but he hasn't sensed Ten for seven years, so yeah. Also, it's Yamcha.
tl;dr: Krillin became stronger than Ten on Namek and his battle smarts far outdo Ten.
When you really think about it Krillin hasn't really done a lot a memorable things in his fights other than beat crappy opponents who were never that powerful and get stomped badly by much stronger opponents. How he managed to outlive everyone else in the Saiyan saga was nothing short of utter luck and Toriyama pulling strings I guess.
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Like some others I did enjoy the wackiness and off-the-wall nature of the Buu saga, and I did enjoy the highschool subplot because it was clear that Toriyama was giving himself some time to unwind with it.
But I don't care for Goten and Trunks there all that much because I find their voices to be incredibly annoying, especially in the Japanese version. Can't wait 'til Kai gets to them…
I don't know if it was anime filler or not, but to be honest, I feel like the series should've ended wit hthe episode where Goku's late for his own borthday party because he gets distracted by all the nature around him and such and everyone's waiting for him. It was a nice moment that harkened back to the early days of the series.