Moria's fate

[mickgreen58]

I agree, we have no proof but Moria was totally surrounded by Pacifistas and Doflamingo.

Unless Moria was able to cut a sweetheart deal with Doflamingo, the guy is dead.

Also, would the 5 Elder Stars take Doflamingo's word that Moria is dead or would they request some type of proof of his demise?

The only value Moria would bring to the story is that he has some valuable information about Kaidou that the Strawhats don't but once the Strawhats get to the New World, they will slowly gain that information.

[Bucephalus]

Well, I'm still on the fence for either side, leaning a bit towards Moria being alive.

Even if he is actually dead, which is very likely, I fail to see how Oda killing him off in such an ambiguous and terrible way is good writing at all.

[SGRaaize]

@Bucephalus:

Well, I'm still on the fence for either side, leaning a bit towards Moria being alive.

Even if he is actually dead, which is very likely, I fail to see how Oda killing him off in such an ambiguous and terrible way is good writing at all.

How is it terrible?
It kills off a Villain that hasn't much to offer while giving credibility to DoFlamingo, the Gorousei and the Pacifista (that were awful during the war)

I like it

[brennen.exe]

@JERK:

I'm like 80% sure Moria is dead.
Only way he lives is Donflamingo lying.

2nd'd, 3rd'd, or whatever placement I am left with. Oda would be doing Dofla's credibility a major disservice by having him fail. "You want to know why? Because MY symbol has been disgraced. Why else?" Also, unlike Bellamy, he has no reason that we know of to let Moria go or show pity, especially since Moria's theme is "do it yourself". Not to mention the Pacifista are involved.

[Bucephalus]

@SGRaaize:

How is it terrible?
It kills off a Villain that hasn't much to offer while giving credibility to DoFlamingo, the Gorousei and the Pacifista (that were awful during the war)

I like it

Killing of a character with a decent-sized fanbase in such a pitiful and humiliating way is terrible. Not that he was killed by being ganged up upon, but because he was killed OFFSCREEN. Why the fuck would he kill off an ex-Shichibukai offscreen. When has Moria ever shown as little relevance as a character like Mr. 11? Killing him off offscreen (for christ's sake) is 100 percent Grade A trolling. Leave that shit to Kubo.

[BeeExAre]

@Sea:

Doflamingo lied to the WG about Moria's death? Seems unlikely. The WG must have seen Moria's sexy corpse to claim in the newspaper that he is dead, especially after all that happened with the Kuma issues. Doflamingo is fucking crazy about the new age, and to him, weaklings don't deserve to live in this age. He needs nothing from weaklings, and he has no mercy, and he isn't the type that would be bribed, and also not the type that would borrow power from the weakling he look down upon. He need nothing from Moria. He is all about era. There is no reason someone like him would trick the WG and help Moria. And there is even less reason someone of his caliber would let a injured weakling like Moria escape, not to mention the dandy Kumabots around him.

It seems to me that your whole argument is based on your incorrect assumption that Moria is a weak fodder…

[goty]

@Bucephalus:

Killing of a character with a decent-sized fanbase in such a pitiful and humiliating way is terrible. Not that he was killed by being ganged up upon, but because he was killed OFFSCREEN. Why the fuck would he kill off an ex-Shichibukai offscreen. When has Moria ever shown as little relevance as a character like Mr. 11? Killing him off offscreen (for christ's sake) is 100 percent Grade A trolling. Leave that shit to Kubo.

…so you think showing Moria's impaled bloody body lying on the ground would make it good writing? How is that needed to get the point across?

[Bucephalus]

@goty:

…so you think showing Moria's impaled bloody body lying on the ground would make it good writing?

At least give his character some closure as opposed to "OOPS, OH YEAH HE DIED YEAH… UHH DIDN'T FEEL LIKE SHOWING HIS DEATH, SO GUESS HE DIED OFF SCREEN, HUH? FUNNY HOW THAT GOES LOL!! ALRIGHT SEEYA"

[Hiroy]

Roleplaying helps.

[SGRaaize]

Alright, so you're pissed because Moria died offscreen
Alright, then, get over it
But it would be far worse writing to find out he's actually alive

[Zik]

@JERK:

Another thing.

Donflamingo could spare him for some sneaky reason, sure.

One problem.

The little altercation was surrounded by Pacifistas. How exactly could Donflamingo do anything against his orders when watched by impartial ironlly loyal cyborgs? Even if he let Moria run the Pacifistas would take him out.

Destroy them all and say Moria did it. Since they're programmed to kill Moria they most likely won't attack Doflamingo just like the pacifistas and Hancock.

[SGRaaize]

@Zik:

Destroy them all and say Moria did it. Since they're programmed to kill Moria they most likely won't attack Doflamingo just like the pacifistas and Hancock.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
This is not DoFlamingo character's AT ALL
Not even if Moria gave him a blowjob and then bombed himself in a building full of people DoFlamingo hates
DoFlamingo is someone who doesn't want weak people on his command, and he thinks that Moria is weak, as well as the World Government, which gave him an excuse to kill him off just by following orders

IT DOESN'T GO ANY FURTHER THAN THAT
HE WOULDN'T BOTHER TO DESTROY ALL THOSE PACIFISTAS TO SAVE MORIA, A GUY HE THINKS WEAK

And besides, the World Government would know

GAAAAAAAH

[Akumu]

@maxterdexter:

Master Moria will live for ever!

In our hearts T_T

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/3703/ripmoria.jpg

So Moria is on Sniper Island?

[Renegadesoul]

Lol…it would be funny if Moria let his shadow clone run/fly far far away to escape on some boat and then switch places with it. XD

[Sea]

@BeeExAre:

It seems to me that your whole argument is based on your incorrect assumption that Moria is a weak fodder…

Not my assumption. But Doflamingo's assumption. Doflamingo thinks Moria is too weak. That is what matters.

[JERK DISEASE]

@Zik:

Destroy them all and say Moria did it. Since they're programmed to kill Moria they most likely won't attack Doflamingo just like the pacifistas and Hancock.

You guys are starting to tread into AGOG territory with how complicated the bending backwards you have to do is.

Go with the flow. Walk the edge of Occam.

[M. Bison]

I liked Moria, but he's probably dead. There's no possible way he could have escaped by himself, especially with Doflamingo and a bunch of Pacifistas surrounding him.

[goty]

@Bucephalus:

At least give his character some closure as opposed to "OOPS, OH YEAH HE DIED YEAH… UHH DIDN'T FEEL LIKE SHOWING HIS DEATH, SO GUESS HE DIED OFF SCREEN, HUH? FUNNY HOW THAT GOES LOL!! ALRIGHT SEEYA"

Show Moria getting humiliated and his actual death would be completely unnecessary. That scene wasn't about "Moria's dead!!".
One could say that Moria was used, and while that's true, he's a character that could add virtually nothing to the plot anymore. And then again, DoFlamingo killing a no-name for 'being useless to us" would have zero impact whatsoever.

[JERK DISEASE]

The scene was a small chilling hint at what lies above. The Gorusei.
It's showing their power in how they can simply erase even a Shichibukai.

Moria's death too insignificant for a Shichibukai? Sure. Because he's getting swallowed up by narrative momentum of a far more powerful entity.

[Zik]

@JERK:

You guys are starting to tread into AGOG territory with how complicated the bending backwards you have to do is.

Go with the flow. Walk the edge of Occam.

How is destroying a bunch of mindless kumabots bending backwards? Is it the part that they get destroyed or the part where Moria takes the credit?

[Cream-of-Chicken]

@mickgreen58:

I agree, we have no proof but Moria was totally surrounded by Pacifistas and Doflamingo.

Unless Moria was able to cut a sweetheart deal with Doflamingo, the guy is dead.

Also, would the 5 Elder Stars take Doflamingo's word that Moria is dead or would they request some type of proof of his demise?

The only value Moria would bring to the story is that he has some valuable information about Kaidou that the Strawhats don't but once the Strawhats get to the New World, they will slowly gain that information.

This is true…

I see your point, but...what does Moria have to offer Doflamingo?

Good point, and I'd imagine they would if not of the Pacifista. Even having one there would be enough. Otherwise, they have no sure way of knowing.

Oh yeah, I forgot all about Kaidou. Well....I suppose we could have found out from Ivankov...maybe that's Sanji's next task? They'll find out eventually, like you said.

[SGRaaize]

@Zik:

How is destroying a bunch of mindless kumabots bending backwards? Is it the part that they get destroyed or the part where Moria takes the credit?

Its the part where you ignore DoFlamingo's character, the purpose of the scene and any possible logic

[Hiroy]

Hmm, I know this is probably minor and has nothing to do with the topic but Dofla abandoned his "slavery" operation for bigger plans(like the War). I'm wondering if this assassination (or attempt) could be linked. I mean, he could have kept it running it if he wanted but he seemed so perplex that the war was going to change things(for his own gain? I don't know).

[JERK DISEASE]

@Zik:

How is destroying a bunch of mindless kumabots bending backwards? Is it the part that they get destroyed or the part where Moria takes the credit?

The Pacifista aren't fodder, these aren't random marine soldiers who you can freely speculate any sort of fate for. Both of those things are bending backwards, you've gone beyond the plausibility of the scenario and are spinning very unplausible possibilties to make up problems with the theory. You're not going with the simplest explanation.

[maxterdexter]

Zephos's right, Moria had a chance to escape but if he'd taken it, he'd be called a traitor and a medium to high priority target, so whatever his fate is, is under the control of Doflamingo and the goverment.

[SuperJew]

Dead.

I can see him being alive if Oda wanted to do a Croc 2.0 with Moria and Kaido or a coverpage story featuring him, but things certainly look grim.

What motivation could Doflamingo possibly have to save Moria over the wishes of the Five Elder Stars?

[Zik]

@SGRaaize:

Its the part where you ignore DoFlamingo's character, the purpose of the scene and any possible logic

How could I be ignoring his character if we're working under the scenario where he lied to the WG in the first place? How is destroying the pacifistas if they actually pose a threat to this lie not part of the process? How isn't it logical? Do you know what logic is?
@JERK:

The Pacifista aren't fodder, these aren't random marine soldiers who you can freely speculate any sort of fate for. Both of those things are bending backwards, you've gone beyond the plausibility of the scenario and are spinning very unplausible possibilties to make up problems with the theory. You're not going with the simplest explanation.

To the shichuibukai they are. I don't know why you'd think it'd be impossible for any shichibukai to take out a group of pacifista.

[JERK DISEASE]

Your suggesting Moria has something worth Donflamingo risking his position and an apparent trust between him and the most powerful men in the entire world. That alone is bending way the fuck backwards.

[BeeExAre]

@SGRaaize:

Its the part where you ignore DoFlamingo's character, the purpose of the scene and any possible logic

Doflamingo's character? You mean the fact that we barely know anything about him except for how hes been shown repeatedly to not be completely on the World Government's side?

[SGRaaize]

@Zik:

How could I be ignoring his character if we're working under the scenario where he lied to the WG in the first place? How is destroying the pacifistas if they actually pose a threat to this lie not part of the process? How isn't it logical? Do you know what logic is?

Because THAT IS NOT HIS CHARACTER
He thinks Moria is weak, this is confirmed
If he thinks Moria is weak, he doesn't care for him, this is confirmed because of Bellamy

The fact that this would end up destroying the building credibility for the Pacifistas and the Gorousei only makes it more hilarious

Here's what you expect:
You expect Oda to think "Oh, hey, maybe I should, destroy the credibility of DoFlamingo, the Pacifistas and the Gorousei just so I can get out of a situation I created myself".

[SGRaaize]

@BeeExAre:

Doflamingo's character? You mean the fact that we barely know anything about him except for how hes been shown repeatedly to not be completely on the World Government's side?

HE THINKS MORIA IS WEAK
HE HATES WEAK PEOPLE
HE WAS CLEARLY HAPPY SEEING HIM DEAD
HE WANTS A AGE OF PYRACY WITHOUT WEAK PEOPLE
THE WORLD GOVERNMENT IS A FAR BETTER PLACE FOR HIM TO BE

GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

I need to chill

[Cream-of-Chicken]

@SGRaaize:

HE THINKS MORIA IS WEAK
HE HATES WEAK PEOPLE
HE WAS CLEARLY HAPPY SEEING HIM DEAD
HE WANTS A AGE OF PYRACY WITHOUT WEAK PEOPLE
THE WORLD GOVERNMENT IS A FAR BETTER PLACE FOR HIM TO BE

GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

I need to chill

I agree. Mostly. He followed the orders happily because he was getting rid of a weak person. However, if he finds the WG ill-fitting in any way, I'm sure he would abandon them.
Yes, you do need to chill.

[maxterdexter]

I see a more likely scenario that WG wanted Moria alive for Vegapunk's experiments, and Doflamingo decided to attack to kill, blaming it in an "accident" or a "he was about to switch out with his shadow", the kind of things that the pacifistas wouldn't notice, and wouldn't be clear on a recording.

[brennen.exe]

The suggestion that Moria took out (at a minimum) four Pacifista before getting defeated by Doflamingo, with no body for the Marines or World Government to verify, is a pretty large stretch. This assumes Dofla let him go, too, which I think makes little sense as is. Might as well add that Dofla's only known means of battle is slicing things with his fruit, so I'd think a bunch of severed Pacifista would be telling* in and of itself.

[Hiroy]

@maxterdexter:

I see a more likely scenario that WG wanted Moria alive for Vegapunk's experiments,..

Hmmm…. A Moria x Oars pacifista? Moria being the foot?

[onemoment]

@maxterdexter:

[qimg]http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/3703/ripmoria.jpg[/qimg]

Zephos's right, Moria had a chance to escape but if he'd taken it, he'd be called a traitor and a medium to high priority target, so whatever his fate is, is under the control of Doflamingo and the goverment.

I don't want to vote until an "either" option is placed, just cause of this scene with Mihawk. It loudly stamps a question mark on Moria's fate, not proving he's dead or whatever. Yes, Mihawk doesn't know about the attack on Moria. Like Masterdexter said here, the only sure thing is that he's probably under the control of the government somehow. Moria most likely didn't escape, but there other places we can go aside from "dead."

-Level 6. Why this instead of death? I dunno, why didn't they kill all those other guys? Moria would fit in great considering he looks like satan.

-Enslavement. With One Piece tech it's not impossible for some rich noble to have their very own Moria.

-Oda makes something up. Yeah, I'm predicting something will be made up. Maybe Donflamingo can do some other crazy crap with his power? Who knows.

-Speaking of which, maybe Donflamingo really did kidnap Moria and lie to the government. Maybe he wants the make use of his powers. It's possible.

And so on. The problem I have with this whole debate is that either way Moria should be mentioned again, so all our questions will probably be answered later. Unless Moria ends up like Nero and Ghin and never get mentioned again…

Anyway, assuming someone wants to me pick a side, I'd go with alive just cause there are a bunch of uses for a weirdo like Moria. "Death" is at least equal to most of these other options.

[goty]

@Hiroy:

Hmmm…. A Moria x Oars pacifista? Moria being the foot?

Maybe people who didn't like his supposed offscreen death would find that not so humiliating.

[MagneticMonkey]

If moria is indeed dead then i wonder why Oda didn't let him die at TB. He knew what he planned for moria in the war. That means moria surviving kuma was only to one shot Oars jr.? And fail against jimbei and be killed by doflamingo? Moria failed for so long only to fail and die miserably of screen? Seems a bit harsh for a promising character.

[maxterdexter]

Moria, or rather the shadow fruit, has an interesting service to provide to the goverment.

The pacifistas are puppets aren't they? Practicaly corpses modified to fight? Putting a soul in a weapon has its cons (loyalty, weak points, it's not neded for them to work) but also it's pros (adaptability, loyalty, the boost in power that a shadow implies).

That's a reason for why the goverment could have wanted moria alive at some point, but as I ponder this, the scene couldn't go "D: Now you die! nah, just kidding, we need you alive" or a knock out after intimidation.

[Urouge]

I'm torn, since the story seems to suggest that he should have died, and Doflamingo needs to retain his serious threat as an antagonist.

On the other hand, I have a hard time thinking that Oda would kill a character as major as Moria off so unemphatically. Because of that one simple reason, I lean slightly more towards "alive."

[Tragic_johnson]

I just don't get why his death is so vague, I mean if hes dead, then I think Oda would just show it, theres no real payoff 100 chpaters from now if its revealed that hes dead. But if hes was alive (or other circumstances) then I think leaving a vague plot thread like that was worth it. On another note this a very hot button issue, I had a 2 hour arguement with my friends a month ago over this, and it did not go well.

[BatDan]

Ugh, have to come in and bust some heads.

Moria is dead. Last time you see him he's being attacked by Doflamingo (the most sadistic members of the Warlords) and multiple Pacifistas. Doflamingo clearly said "you suck, you need to die."

Mihawk was only questioning the article's legitimacy. He doesn't know that Doflamingo killed him!

Why do so many people care? Moria sucked, he was a punching bag that did nothing but get hurt.

[iPenguin]

Addressing the off screen death argument.

What if the death is later shown in a flash back in Doflamingo's own Arc? Perhaps as he reveals his higher ups (the Elder Five Stars) and a little bit of their plan or connection.

[BroBro]

moria is a pretty smart person. im pretty sure he wud use doppelman to escape if his life is in danger

[maxterdexter]

Another reason that would make having the shadow fruit on their side useful.

Impel down, every inmate get's it's shadow taken away, now they can only escape at night, and arive at somewhere safe within 12 hours, in witch they won't be able to move again for 12 hours.

Maybe Moria died to turn Hanybal even more awesome!

[SuperJew]

@Joel:

Addressing the off screen death argument.

What if the death is later shown in a flash back in Doflamingo's own Arc? Perhaps as he reveals his higher ups (the Elder Five Stars) and a little bit of their plan or connection.

Maybe it was an homage to Shakespeare's A Winter's Tale, which has one of the most famous lines of stage direction ever (that leads to an off-stage death):

'Exit, pursued by a bear'

[Zik]

@brennen.exe:

Might as well add that Dofla's only known means of battle is slicing things with his fruit, so I'd think a bunch of severed Pacifista would be telling* in and of itself.

Moria has those scissors he uses as swords.

[JERK DISEASE]

@onemoment:

I don't want to vote until an "either" option is placed, just cause of this scene with Mihawk. It loudly stamps a question mark on Moria's fate, not proving he's dead or whatever. Yes, Mihawk doesn't know about the attack on Moria. Like Masterdexter said here, the only sure thing is that he's probably under the control of the government somehow. Moria most likely didn't escape, but there other places we can go aside from "dead."

The only question mark of the Mihawk scene is Mihawk suspecting exactly what happened. That Moria didn't die as the paper said, and something more sinister took place. My god why the hell aren't people getting that scene. Mihawk has no credibility to judge the situation at all, why would he think Moria was alive.

-Level 6. Why this instead of death? I dunno, why didn't they kill all those other guys? Moria would fit in great considering he looks like satan.

Donflamingo said he was to be killed. This is not possible.
If he is in the government's hands he's dead.

-Enslavement. With One Piece tech it's not impossible for some rich noble to have their very own Moria.

Same here. Didn't happened.

-Oda makes something up. Yeah, I'm predicting something will be made up. Maybe Donflamingo can do some other crazy crap with his power? Who knows.

This isn't even a point.

-Speaking of which, maybe Donflamingo really did kidnap Moria and lie to the government. Maybe he wants the make use of his powers. It's possible.

And how did he conceal this from all those Pacifistas.

[brennen.exe]

@Zik:

Moria has those scissors he uses as swords.

Are you suggesting his scissors could cut what Zoro's best cutting attack could not…?

[JERK DISEASE]

@Tragic_johnson:

I just don't get why his death is so vague, I mean if hes dead, then I think Oda would just show it, theres no real payoff 100 chpaters from now if its revealed that hes dead. But if hes was alive (or other circumstances) then I think leaving a vague plot thread like that was worth it. On another note this a very hot button issue, I had a 2 hour arguement with my friends a month ago over this, and it did not go well.

Oda didn't leave it vague. Just because we had two major in our face deaths recently doesn't change that Oda usually dances around showing it when it happends. We didn't see Mr. 11, Tom, Olvia and Clover or Yorki. He does this.