How is it on the bandwagon, guys?
I've yet to jump on. Probably never will.
Bandwagon for what?
How is it on the bandwagon, guys?
I've yet to jump on. Probably never will.
Bandwagon for what?
How will Bon escape from magellan ?
Many mpossibilities could happen
But remember how magellan was in the presence of hanckok
So if bon changes him self to a lady as he did with hannibal things may be in his rank, how if he's already added hancock's image to his archive ?
We have no information of their meeting, but who knows ?
How will Bon escape from magellan ?
Many mpossibilities could happen
But remember how magellan was in the presence of hanckok
So if bon changes him self to a lady as he did with hannibal things may be in his rank, how if he's already added hancock's image to his archive ?
We have no information of their meeting, but who knows ?
This post is beautiful.
No Hanckock has some strange power (maybe Haki or her love fruit) to make the men fall for her.
No Hanckock has some strange power (maybe Haki or her love fruit) to make the men fall for her.
Stop .
No Hanckock has some strange power (maybe Haki or her love fruit) to make the men fall for her.
its not her devil fruit, especially not her ambition.
Well for me it seems that way… Sorry. She can turn men into stone when hey are falling for her and has some sort of peverse thoughts. So if she would be ugly her fruit would be useless.
But nervermind...
I think people fall in love with her because she's just hot…:getlost:
And her fruit allows her to amplify it and turn them into stones.
No Hanckock has some strange power (maybe Haki or her love fruit) to make the men fall for her.
But she used nothing against magelan
He felt in love immediatly when he saw her
cause she's the most beautiful women in one piece
And her fruit allows her to amplify it and turn them into stones.
Yeah sure
So what do u think about mister 2 having her image and use it against magellan ?
Yeah sure
So what do u think about mister 2 having her image and use it against magellan ?
An interesting speculation i have to say :)
I dont think Magellan is as stupid as Sanji, fooled by hot women everywhere, all the time.
TW, I would just like to mention again, it doesn
t diminish the sacrifice made by characters. But…when you KNOW they
re going to be okay simply because of a selfish notion of the author, it takes away a lot. It hits robby the same way I believe but I don`t want to speak for him.
Exactly. For EXAMPLE. Back in Drum. Wapol ran savage through those awesome snow bunnies, and at the time I thought, "Oh man, what a monster, he killed that awesome snow bunny! Not to mention setting up Hiriluk! Get him Luffy!" and then, come the end of the arc, the snow bunny got back up and there was a sense of "Whew! What a relief! That rabbit ISN'T dead, awesome! Just fought to his limits, thats cool!"
And troughout Skypedia, there was still some of that tenseness.
But by now? nope, there's none of that feeling. Any character that goes down, you KNOW they're going to get up. Its not a surprise or a twist or a triumph at the end… it just IS. And that takes the punch out of the storytelling.
Again, its not that DEATH IS COOL.... but promising, and delivering death, then pulling out on it... is hurting Oda's own credibility as a storyteller.
@Thousand:
Guys, guys,
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/533/06-07/
I think these guys are dead :<
Nope. Those were actually big piles of vegetables making the soup better, not people.
People die in OP. Maybe not the one you like to see dead but people die. Otherwise ID would be a joke.
To me Bon is still awesome for what he did. I don't need him to die to salute him.
Guys dropped in the pit probably are tough enough to handle it and get pulled out. And since Kinjite poison is a specific type they most likely have an antidote.
Before you ask the skulls from Level 2 were probably from Hot Topic for atmosphere.
I don't need him to die to salute him.
I hope youre not talking to robby or myself because we were both very clear about that. It doesn
t change what the character did. It changes the impact on me, the reader.
Luffy thanking him with tears and shit should have been emotional since we literally don`t know the outcome.
Buuuuut we do.
And he`s going to be just dandy.
So, those tears are kinda worthless bullshit space wasted and they certainly didn`t move me like they used to.
Maybe if I thought Bentham even stood a chance of not making it out alive it would be more emotional, but it isnt. He
ll be fine and that`s that.
I can understand that no death in OP means that Impel down for example is a joke. The worst prison in the world and noone dies in it? Well….
From now on, any wild speculation about haki has to be responded to with this image:
@Kairouseki:
From now on, any wild speculation about haki has to be responded to with this image:
http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv138/Kairouseki/IceHaki.jpg
Affirmative .
Guys dropped in the pit probably are tough enough to handle it and get pulled out. And since Kinjite poison is a specific type they most likely have an antidote.
Before you ask the skulls from Level 2 were probably from Hot Topic for atmosphere.
OK, you must admit you're being silly now.
OK, you must admit you're being silly now.
Everything other than Hot Topic I`m dead serious.
What? Dozens of people hit by lightning and surviving isn`t?
Having a bomb explode on your neck and getting shot near point-blank only to have your fate pondered isn`t silly?
Biting off your tongue and cheering at the top of your lungs moments later isn`t STRAIGHT THE FUCK OUT OF LOONEY TUNES!?
I mean get real. Oda even went so far as to cover his ass with the poisons.
Uhhhh we can cure any single poison, just not a bunch of
em together.`
Instant safety for him.
Everything other than Hot Topic I`m dead serious.
What? Dozens of people hit by lightning and surviving isn`t?
Having a bomb explode on your neck and getting shot near point-blank only to have your fate pondered isn`t silly?
Biting off your tongue and cheering at the top of your lungs moments later isn`t STRAIGHT THE FUCK OUT OF LOONEY TUNES!?
I mean get real. Oda even went so far as to cover his ass with the poisons.
Uhhhh we can cure any single poison, just not a bunch of
em together.`Instant safety for him.
See that's your problem, just because Mr. Oda made some death goofs, you're blinding yourself from the deaths that DO happen. Those guys thrown into the pit died, the previous page they declared that was going to happen to them. The level 6 prisoner Magellan poisoned died as well, both the other level 6 prisoners and Bon-chan can attest to that and I highly doubt Impel Down was gonna waste antidote for a level 6 priosner who was either gonna die anyway or never see the light of day. Most of the prisoners Shiryu slaughtered died. Quit making up silly excuses for side-characters that were clearly intended to be taken as dead. I really think you're twisting facts here. It's undeniable Mr. Oda hates killing but that doesn't mean he never does it from time to time.
I don't understand why death matters so much to you people.
I don't understand why death matters so much to you people.
I don't really care, Mr, Oda's story-telling capabilities is of the caliber that execution of anything is perfect (example making the readers worry about Luffy when he was recovering from poison before he slams that door). I just find it silly that Greg can consider dumping such an incredible series that he's stuck with for so long over such a relatively minor issue. But that's his choice and opinion and far be it for me to interfere.
I agree with Greg to an extent, i just don't mind it as much. True, Oda has killed people in the Manga, but there are mostly people who he has not invested anytime in nor emotion with. He can kill them because he hasn't made a link to them with the reader. Other characters he seems to think it would be a waste to kill off and in some cases that is right but not killing off any present character when he tries to make it seem they die takes away a piece of the hook that got you invested in that character. Like Mr.2, he is not dead, everything Oda has written up to this point screams that he's not dead. Little ID fodder criminals though are dead as a door nail and i believe they are dead because Oda has a proven track record for killing unimportant scratch characters. I do love One Piece and most times i can deal with Oda's predictable methods of how he handles death, because so many other aspects of the Manga are pretty unpredictable.
See that's your problem, just because Mr. Oda made some death goofs, you're blinding yourself from the deaths that DO happen. Those guys thrown into the pit died, the previous page they declared that was going to happen to them. The level 6 prisoner Magellan poisoned died as well, both the other level 6 prisoners and Bon-chan can attest to that and I highly doubt Impel Down was gonna waste antidote for a level 6 priosner who was either gonna die anyway or never see the light of day. Most of the prisoners Shiryu slaughtered died. Quit making up silly excuses for side-characters that were clearly intended to be taken as dead. I really think you're twisting facts here. It's undeniable Mr. Oda hates killing but that doesn't mean he never does it from time to time.
I agree with this. The problem with Oda is not that he doesn't kill, is that he makes such ridiculous escapes from death that even the deaths that should be obvious (like Shiryuu slicing up the com-room) are put into question. If we at least knew that the fodder dies instead of having to assume it, then we would at least have the tranquility of knowing that people in this universe that is One Piece die (in the present). I'm beginning to grow annoyed. Up to this point I was not annoyed because I could take that main or side characters that are stronger than average humans could survive monstrosities like atomic bombs, but now I'm beggining to question if even the fodder dies, even though they clearly should. I'm just asking for a panel where a marine checks another's pulse, and then says "he's gone" or something. Just that would restore this huge annoying sensation that is growing in my chest.
Summary: I just want to see someone die, even if it is a fodder marine/prisoner or whatever, JUST to know that regular people can die in OP. I'm afraid I couldn't stomach a story where NO ONE dies. It's a freaking shonen, it centers around fighting, but no one can die? No thanks.
Of course this could all be a build up to make WB's death have more impact in this war, something I believe has a 90+% chance of happening.
Well, it doesn't bug me too much, unless Oda has to practically jump through hoops to censor himself. I've just kind of excepted the fact that only grunts and flashback characters will die, though like Greg, I'm hoping that the absence of real death is going to lead up to a real shocker in the near future when someone actually dies.
While we all know that Mr. 2 will live to see another panel cameo, it is a bit ludicrous that he'll pull through, since Magellan has every right to kill him on the spot, and for the first time this arc, he looked absolutely furious.
@Thousand:
I don't really care, Mr, Oda's story-telling capabilities is of the caliber that execution of anything is perfect (example making the readers worry about Luffy when he was recovering from poison before he slams that door). I just find it silly that Greg can consider dumping such an incredible series that he's stuck with for so long over such a relatively minor issue. But that's his choice and opinion and far be it for me to interfere.
Its NOT a minor issue. If ID was the first OP arc I ever read, ever, I'd be balling my eyes out at Bon Kurei's death. "Oh, what a sacrifice, that really sucks, I am sad!" But its not. Its volume 54 of the series, and the precedents Oda has set, diminish the power that scene otherwise has.
Bon Kurei was awesome. And he made the sacrifice. Awesome. The characters don't know that he'll be fine. But I do. And that really really diminishes it. And its been that way for a while.
Arlong tore up Bellemere brutally, and permanetnly scarred pinwheel hat guy, and right in front of the reader's eyes. He was an evil monstrous badass, and his threat was real. Crocadile killed soldiers and the implication was that hundreds of people were dying left and right off camera. Legitimate evil threats, and its good Luffy stopped him.
But Enel? He was impressive. He toasted everything, killed inocent civilians with GIANT BOLTS OF THUNDER on a whim. He had an ARENA GAME OF DEATH. During his arc he was menacing. But at the end of the day? Not a single person had more than paper cut. If Luffy and the strawhats hadn't gone, the outcome would have been EXACTLY the same. Enel would have gotten on his flying boat, and gone to the moon, and NOTHING would have been changed. Do you see how that diminishes him as a villain? How it diminishes what Luffy accomplished as a hero?
And the same thing has happened over and over since. The tenryubiito are assholes, yes.. but they're nothing to be feared. they shoot normal civilians, have collars explode on their necksbut… those civilians are FINE. Its a nuisance, and annoyance, but its not intimidating. It takes any threat out of them putting a collar on Caimie or Hatchan being shot. Normal adventure story precedant says "Yeah, they'll probably be okay" which is fine... but the Oda precent says "Yeah, they'll 100% for sure be okay with no lasting scars or injuries".
I'm absolutley fine with a lack of death. OP is a fun happy series mostly, and if no one died, I'd be okay with it. It wouldn't be a problem if Oda weren't killing characters, then going back on it. But that IS a problem. He's cheating. Repeatedly.
Over in Naruto, Hinata made a heroic sacrifice, and everyone thought she might be dead. But people didn't believe it becuase of the precedent set by, Neji, Choji, and Gaara. Everyone believed Jiraiya and Kakashi were dead, because there was a precedent. yet lo and behold, Naruto undid 9 months of story with a magic dues ex machina that undermines not only that arc, but EVERY story yet to come. As a result, I no longer even believe Jiraiya is dead, and he was primed as a mentor character in the emotional situation to die, that had a death scene, and probably IS legitimatley dead in the story.... but I no longer accept that at face value.
Now, I'm just waiting for him to waltz up at any time perfectly fine, because the signifigance of death, the signifigance of SACRIFICE, has been undermined.
(Similarly how in American comics no one really cares when Captain America died bcause we all knew he'd be back in 2 years, and lo and behold... he is. Death is a joke in the Marvel and DC comic. An utter, utter joke.)
You can only bluff so many times in Poker before you start getting called on it, and its the same in a story. You have to have a real solid hand at least a few times in Poker before you make a fakeout, or no one is going to believe the bluff. When your honest, like Oda used to be (prior to skypedia), and play fair 80% of the time, then you can bluff that other 20%, and thats okay. When you cheat 100% of the time, you get called a cheater and no one believes you anymore, even when you're telling the truth. WHich is the point Oda has finally approached.
Oda doesn't magically deus ex machina everything, he actually does it a notch worse, by just pretending things are dead and stringing out that emotion, then at the end going "Nope, everything is okay! Nevermind!" EVERY TIME.
Sacrifice doesn't mean anything when there is no cost. I'm no longer sure if Tom died, because he did it off screen. I don't worry when Inazuma is hit and downed by poison, NO ONE was, which in turn cut into Magellan's credibility. Sure, they SAY Luffy was going to die from poison, but he's tough, he mighta been fine even without help, since the poison hasn't actually killed anyone else. And a huge great noble sacrifice by Bon, while very well done, is still a bit of an "Eh", because he's going to be fine.
I understand the desire to keep characters alive to repent or have further adventures, and thats great, I'm ALL FOR THAT. But its not fair to keep tugging the same heart strings on a fake out. Oda is so GOOD at it, he shouldn't need to cheat. He should just pick and choose his battles, like he used to.
Oda needs only definitivley kill ONE named character, ONE,ON CAMERA, IN THE PRESENT, to put that fear and possibility back into place for the duration of the series. As much as he's held off on killing, so so deliberatley, I hope its for the sake of making a greater, much more symbolic impact when someone does go. (ace or whitebeard seem likely canidates)
Otherwise, the sacrifices and battles become just a joke, and that is a problem.
Well, it doesn't bug me too much, unless Oda has to practically jump through hoops to censor himself. I've just kind of excepted the fact that only grunts and flashback characters will die, though like Greg, I'm hoping that the absence of real death is going to lead up to a real shocker in the near future when someone actually dies.
"That man bit his own tounge off and died rather than be a slave. Such is the true spirit of a pirate, the true spirit of a man." The NEXT chapter, he's up and around yelling at the top of his lungs partying. A guy that was introduced the chapter before, for ONE page, SOLELY for the purpose of dying and showing how horrible the slaving trade was. But he's fine, he was just faking. THATS jumping through a hoop to censor himself.
Greg and Robby are right. If a character is introduced just to die, to show that the villains are assholes and murderers, and never does show up again for any important reason, THEN HE SHOULD DIE! I have never had a "Ohmygod is he alright??"-moment since Pell stood whatting at his own grave. Fucking Pell.
Now if Bentham actually dies, that would be wonderful! Nobody believes it will happen, but if it did, we would no longer be waiting for a terrible, earth shaking, all-out war with a peaceful outcome and no one dying.
Those guys thrown into the pit died
Proof please.
The level 6 prisoner Magellan poisoned died as well
Proof please.
I highly doubt Impel Down was gonna waste antidote for a level 6 priosner
That's merely your opinion. Oda could shatter that in a second given what he set up with that line from the doctor.
You claim I'm blinded.
Open your own goddamned eyes.
Oda has been careful to make many small scenarios ambiguous. He can easily declare anyone in ANY of the instances you've brought forward as alive without it being even slightly odd because of the facts he's laced the story with.
So why do I choose to believe they're alive? (as Oda no doubt intends it)
Because he can't kill anyone. Not even useless pricks.
D: Oda-sensei! I've discovered something! The second panel on p.39 of Volume 52. Right in the
middle of the celebrating former slaves is Lacuba, the pirate who bit his tongue and fell
unconscious in Volume 51!! And he seems totally awake and pumped!!! And on top of that, his tongue is flat on the end!!! I was so shocked and pleased to have noticed this.
P.N. Trafalgar Tomo
O: Isn't that great? I'm so glad he didn't die. If you chop you tongue off, you die, folks!
Be careful!
The man can't stand to do it. He's happy when two-frame characters don't die.
I certainly don't expect everyone or even anyone to share my view but I certainly don't expect to get lectured on VERY obvious trends in the story or have my opinion be dismissed as a fault of my own for being 'blind'.
I will be the first person to congratulate Oda when he does something remarkable, but I'm honest about the series and don't let my fandom blind me. I don't praise it where it doesn't deserve it, and lately, that particular aspect certainly doesn't.
I'm just asking for a panel where a marine checks another's pulse, and then says "he's gone" or something.
I want to whole-heartedly agree with this. But then it would seem that I just want death which is NOT what I'm looking for at all. I'm going to go ahead and say I would like a scene like that though. It has nothing to do with death as death, simply the fact that….
SHIT IS DANGEROUS
I really hope he addresses the consequences of letting someone like Crocodile out, the civil war-orchestrating, city-destroying, superweapon-reviving, military state-creating Big Bad.
Digging up a few old posts that are still relevant here, but, I really don't think the blame for Crocodile should fall on Luffy. Yes, he did allow it to happen, and I think something will become of it, but he really didn't really have a choice. On top of that, Ivankov clearly said that he would take the responsibility for whatever becomes of Croc. That pretty much releases Luffy from the blame, but still allows Luffy to be the hero were Croc to go rogue.
There simply is no danger. Everyone comes out scott free all the time. Unless you`re made of wood.
Selected any one of your posts on the matter for reference. For the most part, I agree with you. One difference would be that, with this chapter, the thought of Mr. 2 dying never even occurred to me. No, not because Oda's anti-death campaign, but just…because. I guess because the way it came about. Were this any other story I would feel the same. The impact to me, was that everyone was escaping to freedom and leaving that "hell" behind, but in order to attain that freedom someone had to be the sacrifice and remain in hell. Bon-chan. Now, sure, he might escape with Blackbeard and Shiryuu in the end, but to me the "emotion" in the scene had nothing to do with him potentially dying, but him being forced to remain in prison so that everyone else could be free. THAT is the sacrifice, and even if he (eventually) escapes by some other means, the impact to me, the reader, will not change.
A parallel off the top of my head would be "The Passion of the Christ". When I watched it, I obviously knew Jesus would rise from the dead at the end. Conquer death. A victory, if you will. Yet the sacrifice he made, enduring all that pain and going on the cross for everyone else, still made a huge impact on me, the viewer. Of course not every situation in One Piece is like this, but for scenes like this one I think think the impact intended remains. I mean, Bon-chan won't make it to their boat and he won't be celebrating freedom with his friends. That sacrifice won't (I think) change.
@robbybevard:
Oda needs only definitively kill ONE named character, ONE,ON CAMERA, IN THE PRESENT, to put that fear and possibility back into place for the duration of the series.
For the longest time I have thought that Oda was holding back because he wanted to have one particular death have an extremely huge impact (Whitebeard) that would change the second half of the series, making the chaos that would result from said death more realistic and (maybe) dark. However, what Greg says scares me. It does seem obvious, but how true is it that Oda doesn't want to show death in his series because of the influence his story brings to the [children] viewers? Of course I hope he won't back out of the death that should come at the end of this war, but if he does…?
@robbybevard:
Its NOT a minor issue. If ID was the first OP arc I ever read, ever, I'd be balling my eyes out at Bon Kurei's death. "Oh, what a sacrifice, that really sucks, I am sad!" But its not. Its volume 54 of the series, and the precedents Oda has set, diminish the power that scene otherwise has.
Bon Kurei was awesome. And he made the sacrifice. Awesome. The characters don't know that he'll be fine. But I do. And that really really diminishes it. And its been that way for a while.
Arlong tore up Bellemere brutally, and permanetnly scarred pinwheel hat guy, and right in front of the reader's eyes. He was an evil monstrous badass, and his threat was real. Crocadile killed soldiers and the implication was that hundreds of people were dying left and right off camera. Legitimate evil threats, and its good Luffy stopped him.
But Enel? He was impressive. He toasted everything, killed inocent civilians with GIANT BOLTS OF THUNDER on a whim. He had an ARENA GAME OF DEATH. During his arc he was menacing. But at the end of the day? Not a single person had more than paper cut. If Luffy and the strawhats hadn't gone, the outcome would have been EXACTLY the same. Enel would have gotten on his flying boat, and gone to the moon, and NOTHING would have been changed. Do you see how that diminishes him as a villain? How it diminishes what Luffy accomplished as a hero?
And the same thing has happened over and over since. The tenryubiito are assholes, yes.. but they're nothing to be feared. they shoot normal civilians, have collars explode on their necksbut… those civilians are FINE. Its a nuisance, and annoyance, but its not intimidating. It takes any threat out of them putting a collar on Caimie or Hatchan being shot. Normal adventure story precedant says "Yeah, they'll probably be okay" which is fine... but the Oda precent says "Yeah, they'll 100% for sure be okay with no lasting scars or injuries".
I'm absolutley fine with a lack of death. OP is a fun happy series mostly, and if no one died, I'd be okay with it. It wouldn't be a problem if Oda weren't killing characters, then going back on it. But that IS a problem. He's cheating. Repeatedly.
Over in Naruto, Hinata made a heroic sacrifice, and everyone thought she might be dead. But people didn't believe it becuase of the precedent set by, Neji, Choji, and Gaara. Everyone believed Jiraiya and Kakashi were dead, because there was a precedent. yet lo and behold, Naruto undid 9 months of story with a magic dues ex machina that undermines not only that arc, but EVERY story yet to come. As a result, I no longer even believe Jiraiya is dead, and he was primed as a mentor character in the emotional situation to die, that had a death scene, and probably IS legitimatley dead in the story.... but I no longer accept that at face value.
Now, I'm just waiting for him to waltz up at any time perfectly fine, because the signifigance of death, the signifigance of SACRIFICE, has been undermined.
(Similarly how in American comics no one really cares when Captain America died bcause we all knew he'd be back in 2 years, and lo and behold... he is. Death is a joke in the Marvel and DC comic. An utter, utter joke.)
You can only bluff so many times in Poker before you start getting called on it, and its the same in a story. You have to have a real solid hand at least a few times in Poker before you make a fakeout, or no one is going to believe the bluff. When your honest, like Oda used to be (prior to skypedia), and play fair 80% of the time, then you can bluff that other 20%, and thats okay. When you cheat 100% of the time, you get called a cheater and no one believes you anymore, even when you're telling the truth. WHich is the point Oda has finally approached.
Oda doesn't magically deus ex machina everything, he actually does it a notch worse, by just pretending things are dead and stringing out that emotion, then at the end going "Nope, everything is okay! Nevermind!" EVERY TIME.
Sacrifice doesn't mean anything when there is no cost. I'm no longer sure if Tom died, because he did it off screen. I don't worry when Inazuma is hit and downed by poison, NO ONE was, which in turn cut into Magellan's credibility. Sure, they SAY Luffy was going to die from poison, but he's tough, he mighta been fine even without help, since the poison hasn't actually killed anyone else. And a huge great noble sacrifice by Bon, while very well done, is still a bit of an "Eh", because he's going to be fine.
I understand the desire to keep characters alive to repent or have further adventures, and thats great, I'm ALL FOR THAT. But its not fair to keep tugging the same heart strings on a fake out. Oda is so GOOD at it, he shouldn't need to cheat. He should just pick and choose his battles, like he used to.
Oda needs only definitivley kill ONE named character, ONE,ON CAMERA, IN THE PRESENT, to put that fear and possibility back into place for the duration of the series. As much as he's held off on killing, so so deliberatley, I hope its for the sake of making a greater, much more symbolic impact when someone does go. (ace or whitebeard seem likely canidates)
Otherwise, the sacrifices and battles become just a joke, and that is a problem.
I hate to mock your efforts of such a long well-thought out post by replying with one paragraph but I did say RELATIVELY minor. I see entirely where Greg and you're coming from in this issue. I completely agree with this. It just doesn't bother me as much as it does you guys and yes I do see this death issue as RELATIVELY minor because when I turn around and see series that lack the most basic essentials like art, pacing or even an actual story, I count my blessings that the compensation for Mr. Oda's near godly like writing skills is merely (in a relativistic sense) problems with killing characters. Also I think it's quite silly to assume in ambiguous situations of whether a character died or not that the character definitely is fine like Usoppspell said especially when the characetr more likely died.
THAT is the sacrifice, and even if he (eventually) escapes by some other means, the impact to me, the reader, will not change.
Please know I totally agree. THAT aspect of the character's actions have not changed. A single salty tear welled up in my right eye as I read it, but it never escaped.
Two years ago, I would have been bawling.
Just because…you never know....but now?
And I am fully of the opinion that someone WILL die in the war.
But what happens after that?
Do we go back to 10 years of this same bullshit?
Proof please.
Proof please.
That's merely your opinion. Oda could shatter that in a second given what he set up with that line from the doctor.
You claim I'm blinded.
Open your own goddamned eyes.
Oda has been careful to make many small scenarios ambiguous. He can easily declare anyone in ANY of the instances you've brought forward as alive without it being even slightly odd because of the facts he's laced the story with.
So why do I choose to believe they're alive? (as Oda no doubt intends it)
Because he can't kill anyone. Not even useless pricks.
The man can't stand to do it. He's happy when two-frame characters don't die.
I certainly don't expect everyone or even anyone to share my view but I certainly don't expect to get lectured on VERY obvious trends in the story or have my opinion be dismissed as a fault of my own for being 'blind'.
I will be the first person to congratulate Oda when he does something remarkable, but I'm honest about the series and don't let my fandom blind me. I don't praise it where it doesn't deserve it, and lately, that particular aspect certainly doesn't.
I want to whole-heartedly agree with this. But then it would seem that I just want death which is NOT what I'm looking for at all. I'm going to go ahead and say I would like a scene like that though. It has nothing to do with death as death, simply the fact that….
SHIT IS DANGEROUS
I'm sorry if I offended you. I didn't mean to sound condescending. The thing is those situations are ambiguous for a reason. You ask for proof that those characters died, I ask proof for that they didn't. And trends followed by the author don't count as proof. How do you know he didn't decide, in that instant, that they should die. It's not like we're gonna see them again so Mr. Oda's fixation on not influencing children negatively is clean since no one would even care. See, you can't. Those situations are meant to be interpreted by the reader however they want. You choose to think they're definitely alive and I find it makes more sense that they're dead.
Edit: As a personal note, my one regret if Whitebeard DOES die is Luffy would never have the chance to fight him or at least meet him once. But I suppose his death would totally revolutionize the story with all the chaos the void of his death would leave behind and all those awesome Yonkou territory wars that would occur. Also Luffy could always meet him during the war before he dies and if Luffy beats the guy who killed him that would be good enough for him to claim the throne of Pirate King.
A parallel off the top of my head would be "The Passion of the Christ". When I watched it, I obviously knew Jesus would rise from the dead at the end. Conquer death. A victory, if you will. Yet the sacrifice he made, enduring all that pain and going on the cross for everyone else, still made a huge impact on me, the viewer. Of course not every situation in One Piece is like this, but for scenes like this one I think think the impact intended remains. I mean, Bon-chan won't make it to their boat and he won't be celebrating freedom with his friends. That sacrifice won't (I think) change.
Geez, put that in spoiler tags :silly: .
I was sort of thinking the same thing, that Oda wasn't killing anyone to make a later death all that more surprising. And it seems that this will finally come to pass. Be it Ace or Whitebeard, one of them will die and then Greg won't have anything to complain about anymore .
Yeah, what is the World Government going to do with Whitebeard if they beat him but not kill him? Throw him in Impel Down? hollow laughter
You know I really wonder if Greg would seriously drop One Piece if no one dies in the war:wassat:
Yeah, what is the World Government going to do with Whitebeard if they beat him but not kill him? Throw him in Impel Down? hollow laughter
What if it's the World Government that loses?;)
@Thousand:
What if it's the World Government that loses?;)
That's certainly a possibility, but I'm angling for Whitebeard losing, what with all of Blackbeard's talk of his time coming to an end and the theme of a new generation of pirates replacing the old guard.
@Thousand:
I hate to mock your efforts of such a long well-thought out post by replying with one paragraph but I did say RELATIVELY minor. I see entirely where Greg and you're coming from in this issue. I completely agree with this. It just doesn't bother me as much as it does you guys and yes I do see this death issue as RELATIVELY minor
Your missing the entire point. This ISN'T ABOUT DEATH. Oda shoots himself in the foot everytime he says "this one thing happened…oh wait, no it didn't!" Its a weakness, that especially in this chapter, affects my reaction to the story.
This could instead be an example where, to escape ID, the characters all suddenly, learn how to FLY. And then, after getting to safety, they land, and then go "That was neat! How'd we do that?" "I dunno. Well, guess we can't do THAT again." And then they proceed to not fly for 100 chapters until the rest of the arc, until suddenly, they decide they need to FLY again to get out of a situation, and suddenly regain that ability. Not only them, but every mook and peon they met along the way as well. That would be absurd and everyone would call him on it.
EVERYONE being immune to death, when Oda puts them in DEADLY situations, is the same sort of thing. Its not about the dying, its about the author cheating and playing cards he no longer has.
When he does EVERYTHING ELSE SO WELL, its a shame to have this one, admitedly minor thing he does, be such a consistent sticking point that hurts the entire credibility of the story and emotional impact of any and all future scenes involving sacrifice.
Oda is better than this. He used to do better in regards to this. He'd have death but he'd be discreet about it, leave it ambiguous. Now, he makes it fully clear that everyone is fine, every time.
I rag on Naruto because it squanders the potential and ability the author clearly once showed he had. And now, Oda, despite being at the top of his game in terms of art and story and dramatic build up, is still not as good as he USED to be, by purposely handicapping himself with this one storytelling flaw, that he DIDN'T USED TO HAVE.
I love Nep Ece. The sheer ammount of time I spend on this board should show that, the fact that I own bootlegs and all the domestic releases of the manga and the anime, should show that. I love the series more than pretty much any other currently running. I'll praise it up and down when it does stuff right, as it ofen does with so much. Go back to the start of this very thread and you'll see how awesome I initially thought the chapter was and my first thoughts on Bon's sacrifice, until it had time to settle on me. But when I praise the series as I do, ponder the future of the series and what may be yet to come, it also means that, when the story fails, I call it on THAT too.
Its the same standard I hold NARUTO and FAIRY TAIL AND BLEACH to, why should Nep Ece be held to a lower standard when ts consistently better and I love it more?
Lol, I remember when I first began reading One Piece. I kept thinking it was Nepece too .
@Thousand:
I'm sorry if I offended you. I didn't mean to sound condescending. The thing is those situations are ambiguous for a reason. You ask for proof that those characters died, I ask proof for that they didn't. And trends followed by the author don't count as proof. How do you know he didn't decide, in that instant, that they should die. It's not like we're gonna see them again so Mr. Oda's fixation on not influencing children negatively is clean since no one would even care. See, you can't. Those situations are meant to be interpreted by the reader however they want. You choose to think they're definitely alive and I find it makes more sense that they're dead.
I don't know that I agree with this sentiment about protecting the children. Not only is it a hopeless endeavor to try and do it from a Manga, when the more likely outcome is that the same kids that read it also read other Manga that are death-filled, but I also believe it sends a message of frivolity about lawlessness and war. If you're going to portray pirates and lawless individuals as heroes, and then never have a single one of them pay the price for their recklessness, isn't it even worse?
While I am fully aware of the tone of this story, and I do love it and believe that it achieves so much more than others even with the absence of death, as many have pointed out this has partially stunted our capacity to feel danger and excitement. There is only so much at stake, and it never feels as if there is actual real danger, even though the story says so, because the outcome contradicts this in that no one is ever killed.
Despite this, the sensation of going against overwhelming odds is brought across, at least to me, so I don't complain as much as I would otherwise.
However, I think the time is past ripe that we need to know, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that they can die in the present. They don't need to die per se, this is not the important part, but we need to feel again, as readers, that they can. Now the only real way of showing this that I can think of is to show someone dying. Even killing off a nameless marine unambigously. I don't care that a named character dies at all, just that the feeling of "oh everything will be fine and they'll all be up and partying in no time" isn't there anymore. Why? Because this severely detracts from the feeling of adventure. And adventure is what One Piece is all about.
PS: You can't write a 20-year long story and not expect your growing readers to want a more mature story.
@robbybevard:
Your missing the entire point. This ISN'T ABOUT DEATH. Oda shoots himself in the foot everytime he says "this one thing happened…oh wait, no it didn't!" Its a weakness, that especially in this chapter, affects my reaction to the story.
This could instead be an example where, to escape ID, the characters all suddenly, learn how to FLY. And then, after getting to safety, they land, and then go "That was neat! How'd we do that?" "I dunno. Well, guess we can't do THAT again." And then they proceed to not fly for 100 chapters until the rest of the arc, until suddenly, they decide they need to FLY again to get out of a situation, and suddenly regain that ability. Not only them, but every mook and peon they met along the way as well. That would be absurd and everyone would call him on it.
EVERYONE being immune to death, when Oda puts them in DEADLY situations, is the same sort of thing. Its not about the dying, its about the author cheating and playing cards he no longer has.
When he does EVERYTHING ELSE SO WELL, its a shame to have this one, admitedly minor thing he does, be such a consistent sticking point that hurts the entire credibility of the story and emotional impact of any and all future scenes involving sacrifice.
Oda is better than this. He used to do better in regards to this. He'd have death but he'd be discreet about it, leave it ambiguous. Now, he makes it fully clear that everyone is fine, every time.
I rag on Naruto because it squanders the potential and ability the author clearly once showed he had. And now, Oda, despite being at the top of his game in terms of art and story and dramatic build up, is still not as good as he USED to be, by purposely handicapping himself with this one storytelling flaw, that he DIDN'T USED TO HAVE.
I love Nep Ece. The sheer ammount of time I spend on this board should show that, the fact that I own bootlegs and all the domestic releases of the manga and the anime, should show that. I love the series more than pretty much any other currently running. I'll praise it up and down when it does stuff right, as it ofen does with so much. Go back to the start of this very thread and you'll see how awesome I initially thought the chapter was and my first thoughts on Bon's sacrifice, until it had time to settle on me. But when I praise the series as I do, ponder the future of the series and what may be yet to come, it also means that, when the story fails, I call it on THAT too.
Its the same standard I hold NARUTO and FAIRY TAIL AND BLEACH to, why should Nep Ece be held to a lower standard when ts consistently better and I love it more?
Actually, I didn't miss the point at all. I fully understand the issue and why it bugs you and Greg. I just don't care as much about it to the point that it's a RELATIVELY minor issue to me. It's a shame Mr. Oda isn't as good as he once was in that thing but since I never cared about the thing in the first place I pretty much enjoy One Piece as much as in the old days. Also I disagree where you said Mr. Oda can't do ambiguous deaths anymore. Impel Down is chock full of them.
Hm, I don't know if it's the right word, but the talk of trying not to affect children and stuff strikes me as being rather…self-righteous. Same with Oda's reason for shortening the volume length.
Hm, I don't know if it's the right word, but the talk of trying not to affect children and stuff strikes me as being rather…self-righteous. Same with Oda's reason for shortening the volume length.
Caring for little children is self-righteous?:wassat:
As I said, I'm not sure if that's the word I'm looking for, but his stance on that strikes me of moral guardianship, if that makes sense.
As I said, I'm not sure if that's the word I'm looking for, but his stance on that strikes me of moral guardianship, if that makes sense.
It is but I don't see anything wrong with it. I'm assuming you don't either.
I still don't understand why you need death. It's a happy story, that's the point. Oda doesn't kill fodder to put himself out there. Pell didn't need to die to make the story move on. He doesn't need the fodder to die to have the story move on.
However, he needs Whitebeard and/or Ace to die to make the story move on, and when presented with the opportunity, someone will go down. Even if Ace or WB don't die, they will have their stories ended somehow.
As I said, I'm not sure if that's the word I'm looking for, but his stance on that strikes me of moral guardianship, if that makes sense.
Well, while I am still not certain about what you mean, I think it is not his place or his role to do so. If anything I think he is attributing an influence to his work that it can't possibly have. A prideful and unrequested meddling. Perhaps what you meant was this. Although it is more likely only my opinion.