And croc one of the worst guy so far might actually has a good chance to escape.
Magellan, please, take him down too!
World Government Corruption?
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Magellan is already taking care of that by neutralizing the escaping prisoners at a very rapid rate. Oda is using him to not have Luffy's break-in and subsequent massive mutiny of which he's the leader of within Impel Down result in the escape of the vast majority of prisoners.
Which ends up not making Luffy a "bad" guy in the eyes of the reader.I object, he freed Crocodile. That's bad.
No look we're saying the same thing up until your last sentence.
And then, I agree as well. Luffy won't be the bad guy. He'll be a more mature hero.I'm gonna be the [owner of an Eee PC 1000HE in a couple of days]!!!
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Villain - a cruelly malicious person who is involved in or devoted to wickedness or crime; scoundrel.
So to answer the question who is a villain in One Piece's World Government:
Helmeppo - No
Jinbei - NoHelmeppo almost killed Zoro thru starvation, and Jinbei is a well known pirate and gang leader who set Arlong loose in east blue.
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^Helmeppo was a cruel person back then :) A douche relying on the strength and rank of his father to spread pain.
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And know, he's a good guy, so it doesn't matter anyway.
@wolfwood:Jinbei is a well known pirate and gang leader who set Arlong loose in east blue.
There is no way that you can look at Jimbei as an evil person. Everything he did until now was honorable.
And we don't know what really happened between him and Arlong, so I would be careful about labelling someone evil we know next to nothing about.
And him being a pirate doesn't mean shit, we encountered enough good hearted pirates. -
I wouldnt really call any of those people on that list really evil cept maybe Croc, Spandam and the world nobles who actualy deserve it.
But by the definition that being cruel or being devoted to a life of crime and/or wickedness then that label fits Jinbei and Helmeppo as well.
As for Arlong i think its pretty fucking irresponsible of him to just watch as a super powered racist from his own ranks head of into the weakest of all blues, its not like it wasnt obvious that he was going to take his revenge on humans.
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I object, he freed Crocodile. That's bad.
No look we're saying the same thing up until your last sentence.
And then, I agree as well. Luffy won't be the bad guy. He'll be a more mature hero.He freed croc because to be honest Crocodile was right, without Crocodiles power and fighting strength they might not be able to escape. He can turn ANYTHING into sand - OP much?
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He freed croc because to be honest Crocodile was right, without Crocodiles power and fighting strength they might not be able to escape. He can turn ANYTHING into sand - OP much?
It was Iva's idea.. plus Iva said he could control him and worst case scenario Luffy probably thinks he can beat him down again.
And for Jinbei.. was it stated he 'let' him go? Arlong could have lied or this could had happened after Jinbei left for the Shitchibukai.
If Arlong said straight up hey Jinbei I'm gonna go torture and become a dictator on an island in EB i'm sure he'd put him down. He's one of the most honorable characters in the series. -
He freed croc because to be honest Crocodile was right, without Crocodiles power and fighting strength they might not be able to escape. He can turn ANYTHING into sand - OP much?
That's the point, Silvers. He made a compromise because his goal was more important than his moral standards.
Every man has his price, right?Anywaay, last response for me in the Impel Down guards: Evildoers or misunderstood heroes thread, where Luffy is grouped in with side characters that appear in one arc, tsk.
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And for Jinbei.. was it stated he 'let' him go? Arlong could have lied or this could had happened after Jinbei left for the Shitchibukai.
Dunno really, Yosaku or Johnny gave us the phrasing that he let Arlong loose in east blue. But you'd imagine that he would lift an eyebrow when his apparently highest ranked lieutent suddenly takes of with a bunch of high ranking fishmen and sails of for East blue of all places.
Anywaay, last response for me in the Impel Down guards: Evildoers or misunderstood heroes thread, where Luffy is grouped in with side characters that appear in one arc, tsk.
Never really understood why they were lumped together either, but eh c'est la vie.
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I object, he freed Crocodile. That's bad.
No look we're saying the same thing up until your last sentence.
And then, I agree as well. Luffy won't be the bad guy. He'll be a more mature hero.How does Crocodile's release refute anything? Frankly it doesn't really matter anymore whether Luffy's actions within Impel Down are bad or not because Oda is preventing any major negative repurcussions of them through Magellan.
And Luffy will never be the "mature hero" because that just isn't a part of his character. However, while all these losses he's gotten recently likely aren't going to have a major effect in terms of a personality change they need to have some kind of impact. Which I'm hoping this whole situation with Ace will in fatc be the cause of.
A "hero" is something he's never been in spite of all the things he's done. I mean Luffy's a nice person, if a bit selfish, but his goal isn't to make things better for everyone nor is it to change the word. Now will those things happen regardless? Most likely yes, but they'd be more of a result of whatever events transpired during his journey to become Pirate King. It's like Luffy beating up Arlong; he didn't do it to stop his plans of taking over East Blue. He only did it because he made Nami cry. With Crocodile as well, Luffy only stepped in because Vivi is his friend. There are other situations which are similar as well.
Anyway, my point is Luffy will always dive in without a thought towards the consequences, and changing that is esentially wanting a completely different character which won't happen.
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That's the point, Silvers. He made a compromise because his goal was more important than his moral standards.
Every man has his price, right?No! You are wrong, Luffy may have thought that this would = success but he only really released Croc when Iva said "I can control him" Luffy HATES croc - and wouldn't have released him without the pressure of Iva.
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How does Crocodile's release refute anything? Frankly it doesn't really matter anymore whether Luffy's actions within Impel Down are bad or not because Oda is preventing any major negative repurcussions of them through Magellan.
And Luffy will never be the "mature hero" because that just isn't a part of his character. However, while all these losses he's gotten recently likely aren't going to have a major effect in terms of a personality change they need to have some kind of impact. Which I'm hoping this whole situation with Ace will in fatc be the cause of.
A "hero" is something he's never been in spite of all the things he's done. I mean Luffy's a nice person, if a bit selfish, but his goal isn't to make things better for everyone nor is it to change the word. Now will those things happen regardless? Most likely yes, but they'd be more of a result of whatever events transpired during his journey to become Pirate King. It's like Luffy beating up Arlong; he didn't do it to stop his plans of taking over East Blue. He only did it because he made Nami cry. With Crocodile as well, Luffy only stepped in because Vivi is his friend. There are other situations which are similar as well.
Anyway, my point is Luffy will always dive in without a thought towards the consequences, and changing that is esentially wanting a completely different character which won't happen.
I think he'll become more mature. If nothing else it'll be the "man" version of the "boy" character he is now. He's still Luffy he'll just be a more mature learned person.
He's still a hero. If it wasn't Nami or Luffy, if he encounters evil it pisses himself off to a high degree.. the personal level stuff was just there to add drama.
He might avoid fights he knows he can't win now. He hasn't been as devastated before as now and the stakes are way higher than he's dealt with.
Though, I agree he probably won't stop diving in not giving a flying Flanagan (the crew would probably have to hold him back).. especially now as he begins his rise to being one of the most powerful people in the world.All I meant in the classic hero tale.. this is the "boy becomes the man" phase and there's gonna be consequences.
Think Luke and Yoda. Luffy goes from "farm boy" to "jedi knight".
He's still gonna be Luffy. I think you're going to see a change where he starts to be more of a "pirate king" soon. -
That's the point, Silvers. He made a compromise because his goal was more important than his moral standards.
Every man has his price, right?Anywaay, last response for me in the Impel Down guards: Evildoers or misunderstood heroes thread, where Luffy is grouped in with side characters that appear in one arc, tsk.
So basically he pulled a WG, eh?
"hey Croc, we know you're an evil son of a bitch, but as long as your our evil son of a bitch and you help us…then we'll help you. You're free to terrorize as much as you want and we'll turn the other cheek (as long as it isn't so big that we cant ignore it), k, bye!"
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The hypocrisy in this thread is ridiculous.
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I'm sorry, but I do have to agree with Wolf here. I for one am against capitol punishment, which Magnet is obviously talking about, however I can't help but think that Magnet has no clue what he / she is talking about. Ironic I'm sure, but Wolf has the better argument here by far.
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Having an ultra-Guantanamo bay is never an option of a just free world.
Tyranny breeds "terrorism" (freedom fighters).
The reason there is criminals as fucked up as there is in the OP world is because the WG are hyper nazis who'll slit your throat if you so much as raise a fist or try to find out why they're in control.
So yeah they're pretty evil.
While there is some room for good people in the WG.. most are "just following orders" which got people hung at Nuremberg anyway.
The OP world is so fucked it's hard to compare. Imagine if a world government tried to manifest itself now.. and for a century it was so horrible the lengths they went to secure global order that even knowledge of what happened was a crime punishable by death. The people are bombarded by propaganda it's hard to compare and you're grown to think that tyranny is good and everything else should be destroyed. It kinda throws off people's moral compass. That's why the WG is so sick. Most of the people in it thinking the the most righteous honorable people while they're working for the sickest bastards on the planet.
It's hard to compare OP criminals to todays criminals because often.. to survive they had to be as sick and harsh as possible or they'd be dead, a slave or in a work camp. -
A "hero" is something he's never been in spite of all the things he's done. I mean Luffy's a nice person, if a bit selfish, but his goal isn't to make things better for everyone nor is it to change the word. Now will those things happen regardless? Most likely yes, but they'd be more of a result of whatever events transpired during his journey to become Pirate King.
This is pretty much what I felt the entire point of the Blackbeard/Hannybal sequence was for. The whole Impel Down arc is driven pretty much by Luffy's selfishness and Hannybal and Blackbeard's speeches feel like the first Luffy's ever faced the fact his own unbridled ambition might leave people trampled in its wake.
Hannybal and the Impel Down staff aren't getting beaten because they've committed some terrible deeds or are directly challenging Luffy like previous One Piece villains, it's because they happened to be in Luffy's way. They are just obstacles to Luffy getting what he wants.
Which isn't all that far removed from Blackbeard targetting Luffy and Ace to get his current position. The difference between the two is that Blackbeard's made a conscious, amoral disconnect between his feelings and his ambitions.
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Hannybal and the Impel Down staff aren't getting beaten because they've committed some terrible deeds or are directly challenging Luffy like previous One Piece villains, it's because they happened to be in Luffy's way. They are just obstacles to Luffy getting what he wants.
Although I overall agree with your post, I think Luffy saw the Impel Down guards as being in on Ace's execution. From his POV, they are evil dont you think?
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Although I overall agree with your post, I think Luffy saw the Impel Down guards as being in on Ace's execution. From his POV, they are evil dont you think?
Yes, but I think Oda did a great job of portraying them as not being out and out villains, in part by the relative ease Luffy cleaved through them, and by the relationship between Magellan and Hannybal. They come across more as men and women having their worst day(s) at work ever.
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Yes, but I think Oda did a great job of portraying them as not being out and out villains, in part by the relative ease Luffy cleaved through them
If it would have been harder for luffy to break in ID they would have been the guards would have been complete villains? Or did i get it wrong.
and by the relationship between Magellan and Hannybal. They come across more as men and women having their worst day(s) at work ever.
Since when did Hannyabal or Magellan complain about living in ID? I don't see them having remorses from what they do. And being evil makes you unable to joke with others?
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If it would have been harder for luffy to break in ID they would have been the guards would have been complete villains? Or did i get it wrong.
Since when did Hannyabal or Magellan complain about living in ID? I don't see them having remorses from what they do. And being evil makes you unable to joke with others?
Okay that first bit doesn't make sense o.O So yeah you did get it wrong.. i guess
and no-one said they did complain. but this is clearly a bad day for them, having to exert themselves and maintain their pride as guards. Let alone being beaten up in Hannybal's case. Joke with others? Have you got the right manga? This is about One Piece.Ever watched One Piece on acid? it's pretty sweet.
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Okay that first bit doesn't make sense o.O So yeah you did get it wrong.. i guess
So can you explain me what Brack meant?
and no-one said they did complain. but this is clearly a bad day for them, having to exert themselves and maintain their pride as guards. Let alone being beaten up in Hannybal's case.
My argument is that they are enjoying their job. If not why don't they quit it? No they think they have the duty to torture and kill pirates who were imprisoned and well known for mass murdering or just being pirates? Does the excuse that "they do it to help people out there sleep better" works? I already explained in the last pages that torture and killing are unnecessary so why do they still do it? And no matter what they believe isn't torture and killing some of the worst thing you can do to a human? Doesn't it makes them evil?
Joke with others? Have you got the right manga? This is about One Piece
Brack used:
and by the relationship between Magellan and Hannybal
as an argument to them having their worst day at work. So he believes this is how they actually try to deal with the remorses of what they're doing. The question i raised in numerous posts remains "why don't they quit their job if they think that IDs methods of dealing with people are horrible"? And i asked Brack if he thinks that Hannyabal joking with Magellan forgives him all the horrible things he is reponsible for in ID?
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And i asked Brack if he thinks that Hannyabal joking with Magellan forgives him all the horrible things he is reponsible for in ID?
Well the point of my original post was to affirm the idea that Luffy has been selfish and compare that Blackbeard's own selfishness, rather to argue your particular point on the Impel Down staff's morality.
My second point was that I don't believe Impel Down staff have been presented to the reader as being as being villains. They are opponents, they are enemies, but essentially they are doing their jobs and, in the case of Magellan and Hannyabal, have been presented with a degree of humanity (unlike Shiryuu, who is, in part, there to provide some perspective on Magellan and Hannyabal's merits as people).
They believe they are doing the right thing, that they are making the world a safer place by keeping all these "evil" people imprisoned and made to pay for their crimes.
That argument doesn't even enter Luffy's mind until Hannyabal makes his speech, which Luffy then dismisses, essentially saying Ace's life is worth more than peace. We then get Blackbeard, crushing Hannyabal's position even further (and Hannyabal himself), with his dismissal of the idea of good and evil.
Oh, and I have no idea where you got "joking" from, as I never mentioned it in my posts.
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They believe they are doing the right thing, that they are making the world a safer place by keeping all these "evil" people imprisoned and made to pay for their crimes.
So believing you are doing the right thing justify torturing? What do you think the nazis believed when they built the concentration camps? Would you use the same argumentation based on beliefs with the nazi case?
That argument doesn't even enter Luffy's mind until Hannyabal makes his speech, which Luffy then dismisses, essentially saying Ace's life is worth more than peace. We then get Blackbeard, crushing Hannyabal's position even further (and Hannyabal himself), with his dismissal of the idea of good and evil.
I don't read it as that? Hannyabal would have never let luffy escape to save Ace. But saving Ace doesn't have to mean war. Hey the WG decided to use Aces life to begin a war.
Oh, and I have no idea where you got "joking" from, as I never mentioned it in my posts.
I thought you were mentioning the jokes of Hannyabal or his humorous attempts to become the chief warden when you mentioned the relation between hannyabal and magellan.
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So believing you are doing the right thing justify torturing? What do you think the nazis believed when they built the concentration camps? Would you use the same argumentation based on beliefs with the nazi case?
Did you just compare indiscrimintly killing people based on their religion to imprisoning and punishing convicted A-level villains?
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Did you just compare indiscrimintly killing people based on their religion to imprisoning and punishing convicted A-level villains?
I used the argument "oh the ID staff can't be evil since they torture and kill because they believe it is good."
And now you know how wrong that argumentation is. -
As soon as you start comparing anything that is not mass genocide to Nazi acts of mass genocide you've lost the argument.
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As soon as you start comparing anything that is not mass genocide to Nazi acts of mass genocide you've lost the argument.
Read my argumentation again. I don't think you got the idea.
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So believing you are doing the right thing justify torturing? What do you think the nazis believed when they built the concentration camps? Would you use the same argumentation based on beliefs with the nazi case?
YOU JUST ACTIVATED MY TRAP CARD!
Seriously, the Impel Down staff aren't Nazi's, they aren't the Spanish Inquisition, they are fictional Medieval/Renaissance-era gaolers. Now it might not have been that great an idea to give some of them those particular uniforms, but they have more in common with something like this:
than anything from actual history.
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YOU JUST ACTIVATED MY TRAP CARD!
Seriously, the Impel Down staff aren't Nazi's, they aren't the Spanish Inquisition, they are fictional Medieval/Renaissance-era gaolers. Now it might not have been that great an idea to give some of them those particular uniforms, but they have more in common with something like this:
http://www.toonpool.com/user/997/files/dungeon_bruise_easily_381245.jpg
than anything from actual history.
i caught him waaaaaaaa:
[hide]
[/hide]Argumenting "i believe i am the wall between the bad pirates and the humans out there and i'm torturing them because i believe i am on the right side" doesn't work since it is based on beliefs. I never wrote "the ID staff are nazis"….
If you think this argumentation is right then you would say the psychopath who killed that little girl cause he believed god told him to sacrifice her for him is right. That's what i'm saying here. -
i caught him waaaaaaaa:
[hide]
http://raoworld.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/double-facepalm.jpg
[/hide]Argumenting "i believe i am the wall between the bad pirates and the humans out there and i'm torturing them because i believe i am on the right side" doesn't work since it is based on beliefs. I never wrote "the ID staff are nazis"….
If you think this argumentation is right then you would say the psychopath who killed that little girl cause he believed god told him to sacrifice her for him is right. That's what i'm saying here.OK you've completely lost me now. You do know this is a comic we're talking about here don't you? You seem to be missing my point (and everybody else's) on such a consistent basis I suspect you're doing it on purpose.
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OK you've completely lost me now. You do know this is a comic we're talking about here don't you?
So this thread is meaningless since it's a comic and should not be compared to the real world?
You seem to be missing my point (and everybody else's) on such a consistent basis I suspect you're doing it on purpose.
Your point is? We cannot use our knowledge and what we think is wrong when judging what happens in OP? The thread's title is: Impel Down guards: Evildoers or misunderstood heroes. It's a direct question to us. And again what is so hard to understand when i say that when hannyabal says he believes "what i believe what i do isn't wrong", doesn't excuse the torture and the killing since that isn't even an argument (as showed with the psychopath example)?
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I got your argument. Its still bad and the psychopath argument is even more horrible. Psychopath doing it because he believes God told him too is far different than tortures doing their duty for the practical purpose of setting an example.
They torture the prisoners so when they get out they'll spread the horror stories of ID and less people would want to go out and become pirates or do bad things in general. If they die before their sentence then oh well, one less bastard on the sea. Its about making an example of what happens to those who disturb the peace and harm civilians for no reason at all but their own pleasure.
Just because they like their job doesn't make them evil. They like harming those who have brought harm to others. Sick sadist with good hearts in fact do exist even IRL. Your ideas come off as naive and are far too black&white.
Is this guy evil?
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There is a small Nazi connection. Oda based their costumes on Nazis for a reason.
Most of the people in concentration camps were dissidents.
Many Impel prisoners are as well. Or people who wouldn't bend over and let the WG fuck them. People who'd rather live on their feet then serve on their knees. Name with the camps, they were mostly filled with people who wouldn't submit to Hitler's new order.It's not genocide but that didnt really take place until the Nazis were losing. If the WG were starting to lose power I could see them execute prisoners.
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[file:///C:/Users/santiago/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot.jpg](file:///C:/Users/santiago/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot.jpg)
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t164/Ranger_/1244412468621.jpgThat isn't real. I'm guessing it was circulated by Cheney-ites to bamboozle people into thinking torture is peachy and glorious.
exerpt from http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_black_jack_pershing.htm :
Comments: I consulted Dr. Frank E. Vandiver, professor of history at Texas A&M University and author of "Black Jack: The Life and Times of John J. Pershing," to find out if there's any truth to the above, and he responded via email that in his opinion the story is apocryphal. "I never found any indication that it was true in extensive research on his Moro experiences," Vandiver responded. "This kind of thing would have run completely against his character." Similarly, I been unable to find any evidence corroborating the claim that Muslims believe that "eating or touching a pig, its meat, its blood, etc., is to be instantly barred from paradise and doomed to hell." It is true that Islamic dietary restrictions, like those of Judaism, forbid the eating or handling of pork because pigs are considered unclean. But according to Raeed Tayeh of the American Muslim Association in North America, the notion that a Muslim would be denied entrance to heaven for touching a pig is "ridiculous." A statement from the Anti-Defamation League characterizes the claim as an "offensive caricature of Muslim beliefs." -
I got your argument. Its still bad and the psychopath argument is even more horrible. Psychopath doing it because he believes God told him too is far different than tortures doing their duty for the practical purpose of setting an example.
Let's set an example and kill all those who said god doesn't exists. It's for the great cause. And by doing it we will be sure everyone who has something against god will fear to express their opinions. Why do you people keep bringing that horrible argument? Do you actually believe the world as it is will be better if we use violence to scare enemies?
It is simple i think you guys got that i value life. I believe there are other ways of dealing with enemies and people who did a lot of horrible things in life.They torture the prisoners so when they get out they'll spread the horror stories of ID and less people would want to go out and become pirates or do bad things in general. If they die before their sentence then oh well, one less bastard on the sea. Its about making an example of what happens to those who disturb the peace and harm civilians for no reason at all but their own pleasure.
So you agree that they use evil methods enjoy doing it and yet they are not evil cause they're making an example? And i am the one who brings bad arguments here…
Just because they like their job doesn't make them evil. They like harming those who have brought harm to others. Sick sadist with good hearts in fact do exist even IRL. Your ideas come off as naive and are far too black&white.
I enjoy watching people die in pain but yet if i find someone backing me up it doesn't make me evil especially if that person is in fact a big Government ruling the world… Why do i think this statement is even worse than what you said before.... And why do you think that people in the OP world won't stop of being scared if they don't know that the mass murderer isn't just in jail but is also tortured slowly till he dies? I can sleep very well knowing that the mass murderer i fear is in jail. I won't feel better knowing that he actually suffers because it is unnecessary.
Is this guy evil?
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t164/Ranger_/1244412468621.jpgMaybe i will answer this in the general discussion section if you open a thread about it.
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where's the poll for this question?
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Hey guys, I like to kill people. Rather than kill innocent people I joined the army and decided to kill bad people.
Am I evil?
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Hey guys, I like to kill people. Rather than kill innocent people I joined the army and decided to kill bad people.
Am I evil?
imo sort of but youre more stupid if that was true. True for anyone who voluntarily joins an army, but thats abit off topic ;P
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I used the argument "oh the ID staff can't be evil since they torture and kill because they believe it is good."
And now you know how wrong that argumentation is.Has anyone actualy argued that its their beliefs alone that keep them from being evil? And like Ryuksgel said the comparision is just wrong.
What i have said is that they about their beliefs is that they dont quit their job because they belive in this institutions purpose and that harsh methods are valid against their kind of clientel.
Most of the people in concentration camps were dissidents.
Many Impel prisoners are as well. Or people who wouldn't bend over and let the WG fuck them. People who'd rather live on their feet then serve on their knees. Name with the camps, they were mostly filled with people who wouldn't submit to Hitler's new order.Are you serious, your actualy claiming that the majority of the prisoners in impel down are political dissendants? And no Iva and CO doesnt count as any sort of political prisoner.
Do you actually believe the world as it is will be better if we use violence to scare enemies?
Once theyve reached the status of enemy then yeah violence is probably unavoidable. And neccesary.
That or concessions, but you cant deal with criminals that way.
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Impel Down guards are Evildoers who misunderstand, and think that they are heroes. Nah.
Impel Down guards are heroes who misunderstand, and think that they are evildoers. Nah.
Impel Down Evildoers are guards who misunderstand and think that they are demons punishing the damned in Hell. Sounds about right to me. -
Hey guys, I like to kill people. Rather than kill innocent people I joined the army and decided to kill bad people.
Am I evil?
yes, you are evil.
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But I don't want to kill normal people, I just wanna kill America's enemies because I love my country. What's wrong with that?
ΩMEGA PIRATES: ? Members
Captain: Zkaiser
Status: Dejected.
Threat Level: Pink
Goal: Prove the Elemental Haki Theory
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But I don't want to kill normal people, I just wanna kill America's enemies because I love my country. What's wrong with that?
Play computer games it will calm you!!! Or go to the fresh air and train for a marathon.
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Sssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh….......
Let's set an example and kill all those who said god doesn't exists. It's for the great cause. And by doing it we will be sure everyone who has something against god will fear to express their opinions. Why do you people keep bringing that horrible argument? Do you actually believe the world as it is will be better if we use violence to scare enemies?
You're now comparing differing opinions to despicable actions yet we are the ones with horrible arguments? ID personnel aren't torturing prisoners because they have different view of things. Pains not bad, its good, it teaches you things. Put your hand in fire "OWWW!!!", you know not to do that again.
Nobody can know which if any religion is real, so killing or harming those with different views is pointless as you're not actually giving a reason for that person to change their views. However breaking somebody through pain works as you're making the perpetrator experience what they've been doing to people or worse. Even if they never change damn sure less hardened or sick individuals will be hesistant to make similar actions based on what they see.
Its about what is worth fighting for. Torture is all about breaking somebodies will either directly or indirectly (person who viewed effects of torture). People will endure pain for injustices such as people pushing them out of their land, stealing/destroying culture, hindering free speach, trying to change their personal views that don't effect the perptraitor, etc. Only extremely ill individuals or people with a twisted sense of pride(though white supremicists/dumbshit gangbangers fall under culture for) will endure extreme pain just to continue being assholes. Most criminals would see its not worth it.
Worded your question wrong. We're not talking about enemies. We're talking about criminals with unrefutable proof of their misdeeds or criminals who openly admit to them. These people are long past the point of talking too as they've repeatedly proven they're unreasonable. There is most definitely times where excessive violence is the best or only option, just as there are times for diplomacy or rehabilitation.
It is simple i think you guys got that i value life. I believe there are other ways of dealing with enemies and people who did a lot of horrible things in life.
Again NAIVE. What exactly? Drugs to chang them or sedatives? Keeping them isolated for eternity(like that isn't torture)? Keeping them in prison but given regular meals and only slightly less sleep than free innocent people, with their only real punishment is not being able to socialize with the people around them(which in a Lifer's case can't even be enforced in your world because you won't do anything to shut him up)?
So you agree that they use evil methods enjoy doing it and yet they are not evil cause they're making an example? And i am the one who brings bad arguments here…
They're not evil because they could be doing it to innocent people like the criminals, defenseless little animals, people who've done petty crimes who would never be sent to ID, or each other. No I didn't agree they use evil methods, what gave you that idea? Sadist is a synonym for evil person now?
I enjoy watching people die in pain but yet if i find someone backing me up it doesn't make me evil especially if that person is in fact a big Government ruling the world… Why do i think this statement is even worse than what you said before.... And why do you think that people in the OP world won't stop of being scared if they don't know that the mass murderer isn't just in jail but is also tortured slowly till he dies? I can sleep very well knowing that the mass murderer i fear is in jail. I won't feel better knowing that he actually suffers because it is unnecessary.
So you do automatically equate being a sadist with being evil? Clear example of narrow black&white view. Some people are actually born like that, some are raised like Lucci(assuming he could have been a normal boy) but apparently upbringing and sicknesses don't matter to you nor how said person handles their uniqueness. ID guards seem to handle it pretty well focusing their addiction on horrible people.
Says the person who, like most of the developed world's population, has never had bad people terrorize their everyday life. You're looking at things out of context now. The context of someone who watches the news and wishes bad shit would stop happening, not someone who has experienced repeated atrocities.
Some people need a little something extra to sleep at night than the image of said wrongdoer sitting in a cell perfectly healthy bummed out and bored to tears. Especially when said wrongdoers usually have some level of superhuman capabilitiy. Hell many ID guards may not be sadists just people who really want to punish pirates for their crimes.
Maybe i will answer this in the general discussion section if you open a thread about it.
People who flew the plain over Hiroshima evil? People who place needles in the arms ofl proven bad people evil? Valid questions to the discussion.
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ID personnel aren't torturing prisoners because they have different view of things. Pains not bad, its good, it teaches you things. Put your hand in fire "OWWW!!!", you know not to do that again.
I know how pain works.
Nobody can know which if any religion is real, so killing or harming those with different views is pointless as you're not actually giving a reason for that person to change their views. However breaking somebody through pain works as you're making the perpetrator experience what they've been doing to people or worse. Even if they never change damn sure less hardened or sick individuals will be hesistant to make similar actions based on what they see.
So it's all about "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth." Did you know that this fuels violence and pain?
And the grand line is still full of pirates even knowing ID exists… Did it helped? You install a system of fear and yay peace on earth? It doesn't work like that....criminals with unrefutable proof of their misdeeds or criminals who openly admit to them. These people are long past the point of talking too as they've repeatedly proven they're unreasonable. There is most definitely times where excessive violence is the best or only option, just as there are times for diplomacy or rehabilitation.
One question: Do you believe all the prisoners on level 1 killed someone? Are they all criminals judging them by your own standrad not the one of the WG?
Again NAIVE. What exactly? Drugs to chang them or sedatives? Keeping them isolated for eternity(like that isn't torture)?
No freedom is already hard enough no need to murder/torture.
Keeping them in prison but given regular meals and only slightly less sleep than free innocent people, with their only real punishment is not being able to socialize with the people around them(which in a Lifer's case can't even be enforced in your world because you won't do anything to shut him up)?
Not sure if i understood corretly.
They're not evil because they could be doing it to innocent people like the criminals, defenseless little animals, people who've done petty crimes who would never be sent to ID, or each other. No I didn't agree they use evil methods, what gave you that idea? Sadist is a synonym for evil person now?
You said the freed prisoners will spread the stories of the horros happening in ID. So the ID staff is doing evil things?
So you do automatically equate being a sadist with being evil? Clear example of narrow black&white view. Some people are actually born like that, some are raised like Lucci(assuming he could have been a normal boy) but apparently upbringing and sicknesses don't matter to you nor how said person handles their uniqueness. ID guards seem to handle it pretty well focusing their addiction on horrible people.
There are actually people who can't live without seeing someone scream? And you think these guys should be promoted to prison guards so that they can fulfil their fantasies/addiction? Can't they have a therapy?
Says the person who, like most of the developed world's population, has never had bad people terrorize their everyday life. You're looking at things out of context now. The context of someone who watches the news and wishes bad shit would stop happening, not someone who has experienced repeated atrocities.
Witnessing atrocities make them excusable. I see…
Hell many ID guards may not be sadists just people who really want to punish pirates for their crimes.
You punish them by keeping them in cells.
People who flew the plain over Hiroshima evil? People who place needles in the arms ofl proven bad people evil? Valid questions to the discussion.
Yeah! Now that you've gathered your ideas open the thread :)
"Give the sadists a chance to fulfil their fantasies…. Send them all to prison..." And now assume that there is no criminal at all in society what do we do now with the sadists? Not good... Not good...Houston we have a serious problem. They are now so addicted that they are attacking the innocents...
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Originally Posted by MagneticMonkey
Let's set an example and kill all those who said god doesn't exists. It's for the great cause. And by doing it we will be sure everyone who has something against god will fear to express their opinions. Why do you people keep bringing that horrible argument? Do you actually believe the world as it is will be better if we use violence to scare enemies?All of a sudden it feels like we're discussing Death Note.
Anyhow, my view on the Impel Down guards is that they're more or less government marionettes, interested in their carriers rather than the prisoners.
Look at Hannyabal for an example. He couldn't care less about the prisoners, but he strives for a high-ranked position. When Magellan's job was in danger, he didn't move a finger, but when his own job was, he started preaching about the little people and their fears.
The cannon-fodder guards in their turn just do what they get paid for. You could think of them as soldiers. They fight for their country or whatever they believe in as long as they get paid by the end of the day. To them, the prisoners are just part of the bundle. :P
So to round it all up, Hannyabal is a bad guy; Sadi-chan, sadistic as she is, is evil and only works for her own pleasure; Shiryuu is clearly bad. In the end, the only really good guy is Magellan. He fights for what he thinks is right and only harms those who would harm him back (if they could).
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Magellan is the head of a prison that tortures thousands of people. He's not a good guy.
That's like defending the people from the Nurmemberg trials who's defense was "just following orders".
95% of evil people do what they're thinking is right and just.I'm guessing the people who are standing up for the IDers are Fox news fans, amiright?
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I know how pain works.
I don't see it.
So it's all about "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth." Did you know that this fuels violence and pain?
And the grand line is still full of pirates even knowing ID exists… Did it helped? You install a system of fear and yay peace on earth? It doesn't work like that....Except that saying doesn't work in this scenario. You're not taking just an eye you're attempting to break down body&soul. Now you're comparing Capital Punishment to petty payback. Weak minded pirates aren't going to try and go against the government who made them their bitch once they gets out. Certainly not an ordinary crew.
Maybe it did, how would we know the effects on the OP world without ID.
One question: Do you believe all the prisoners on level 1 killed someone? Are they all criminals judging them by your own standrad not the one of the WG?
Its the worst prison in the world housing the worst offenders of the world. So yeah I'd say everybody has killed or made normal peoples lives hell. Even buggy did horrible things and he's tame in comparison to everyone else in East Blue and most fodder pirates like the ones the shiprights and CP9 took care of.
No freedom is already hard enough no need to murder/torture.
Why is it enough? They sail an ocean full of monsters and crazy weather hazards, kill people, fight each other and marines, and you think some time in a cell would break such tough individuals them? Criminals in real life can handle their sentences just fine and many go right back to what they were doing.
Not sure if i understood corretly.
I'm asking you what idea do you have to punish capital offenders? What I described is basically like prison in real life. They sit around with other prisoners in cells. Since the guards can't hurt the pirates what exactly are they supposed to do if the prisoners decide to just socialize their whole sentences, possibly talking about what bad things they'll do once outside or planning escape. Taking away food would be torture, hurting them would be torture, solitary confinement would be torture. What option do the guards have in your ideal prison to keep the (generally superhuman) prisoners in line? Sedatives like in level 6?
You said the freed prisoners will spread the stories of the horros happening in ID. So the ID staff is doing evil things?
So now "scary", "horror", etc. is a synonym for evil?
There are actually people who can't live without seeing someone scream? And you think these guys should be promoted to prison guards so that they can fulfil their fantasies/addiction? Can't they have a therapy?
Yeah, therapy is going to work for Sadi or somebody extremely pissed at pirates for burning down his house and killing his family :/? Nobody is saying what ID is doing is good, but to say its downright evil is plain naive. You have given zero practical alternatives to what the WG has set-up.
Witnessing atrocities make them excusable. I see…
Did you take any amount of time at all to see something through a different perspective? A person breaks into your home completely shattering your sense of security taking lives and valuables and you expect a normal person to be comforted knowing they are sitting in a cell perfectly fine staring at a wall? Completely worry free they won't break out because they're sitting in a cell you're told is impenetrable. No worries about another guy coming and doing the same thing because they fear sitting and starring at a wall too.
You punish them by keeping them in cells.
You're advocating a glorified extended detention is bad enough punishment for people like Kuro, Krieg, Morgan, Bellamy, etc. Yeah thats really going to convince them to change their ways for the better. The idea of an extended detention is going to deter still active pirates too. Criminals totally couldn't take advantage of that system.
Yeah! Now that you've gathered your ideas open the thread :)
"Give the sadists a chance to fulfil their fantasies…. Send them all to prison..." And now assume that there is no criminal at all in society what do we do now with the sadists? Not good... Not good...Houston we have a serious problem. They are now so addicted that they are attacking the innocents...
How bad of a debater are you that your only responses are impractical simplified solutions to major problems and now a unrealistic hypothetical scenario? Then you refuse to answer simple questions. Obviously no criminals equals= no money spent on running prisons&police work means= more money(hundreds of billions by U.S. standards) for health care and you could actually give every single sicko therapy.
Magellan is the head of a prison that tortures thousands of people. He's not a good guy.
That's like defending the people from the Nurmemberg trials who's defense was "just following orders".
95% of evil people do what they're thinking is right and just.I'm guessing the people who are standing up for the IDers are Fox news fans, amiright?
Correction: Thousands of horrible(good portion relatively super) humans who've raped, pillaged, and murdered across seas for no reason at all but their own enjoyment. These aren't innocent people, not petty criminals, not dissidents, not suspected criminals, nor people fighting the power for a "cause". Nice try pulling a percentage out of your ass for both real and fictional criminals. These guys are generally bad(buggy) bad to downright despicable human beings.
