Chapter 542: "Another Event To Soon Be Told" Discussion

[Ninjabrownie]

@Ivotas:

So? How does negate everything? It's just his personal fear. The Marine pretty much is very worried about how everything will play out. It was made clear several times already that they need each single Shichibukai for that thing. If it isn't like I suggest, then why is Sengoku so worried to have all seven Shichibukai assembled to fight just one fourth of the Yonkoh? Doesn't make much sense.

Of course it does. Why stretch your own forces when you have mercenaries?

Unrelated to that though, Whitebeard is far more of a threat to the WG than eg Shanks, because he commands a large fleet. They occupy more territory, are at more places at the same time and can take on more enemies at once. If WB falls, the void in the New World that creates can be filled by anyone with the manpower to control that much territory.
Maybe BB went to ID simply to free a bunch of mean mothers -> HeHo rampaging era, more chaos to thrive in.

On yet another note, how the hell is Shiryuu expected to sneak by a hoard of male prostitutes and not get owned by Gomu Gomu no Sables Karate?? I kind of think Magellan's plan will not work out and there will be a brawl on level 3.

[dlo62282]

To be honest Ivotas, the marines seem pretty sure of themselves besides Sengoku. And he is just nervous because things are not going like he planned it to. I dont think he is worried as much as u think he is. He wants things to go as planned and to limit casualties on his side.

When you are playing chess, you want to use all your pieces ideally. The WG is a FORCE. Their main threat is ANOTHER force called the revolutionaries. Whitebeard or the other yonkous are no threat to destroy the goverment. The wg is battling things on multiple fronts and they still seem pretty comfortable. They are already in a long war with the "dragons". They captured ace and they were like might as well end whitebeard while we can make him come to us.

They have to be overstacked because liked they said. The other yonkou are moving as well and they dont know who else is going to attack. They are being cautious, as they should. Whitebeard doesnt have much of a chance.
Ace doesnt think so. Jimbei doesnt think so. They both know his power more than most people, so that means something. The wg will be fine.

[Urouge]

@Herms:

I don't see what you mean. He basically just noted all the trouble Luffy was causing, before telling Ace to get his last good look at the sky, because pretty soon he is going to be dead. That's not exactly what I'd call soft.

Ace was absolutely miserable, finding out that Luffy came to save him. Being executed with that weighing on your conscious would suck. By telling Ace the situation, Ace can be relieved by the fact that Luffy may survive and get away. A completely cruel character like Spandam would have never relayed that info, and may even lie and say that Luffy was captured. Telling Ace to look at the sky is almost sympathetic, and it seems like Onigumo's trying to give honest, good advice. He actually seems to care that Ace's last moments aren't completely miserable.

[Ninjabrownie]

@Urouge:

Ace was absolutely miserable, finding out that Luffy came to save him. Being executed with that weighing on your conscious would suck. By telling Ace the situation, Ace can be relieved by the fact that Luffy may survive and get away. A completely cruel character like Spandam would have never relayed that info, and may even lie and say that Luffy was captured. Telling Ace to look at the sky is almost sympathetic, and it seems like Onigumo's trying to give honest, good advice. He actually seems to care that Ace's last moments aren't completely miserable.

We only know that Ace knows Luffy busted in ID because of Hancock. As far as the WG is concerned, Ace did not yet know about this.
Furthermore, there is no reason why the WG should not have faith in Magellan.
Onigumo is telling Ace: Your brother messed up, he will never see that blue sky again. He's dicking around and will spend the rest of his life in level 6 as punishment.

[brennen.exe]

What Onigumo said to Ace is the equivalent of saying, "Any last words?" or "Say your prayers." The difference here is that it is a bit more drawn out: "Take a good look, cause it's the last one you'll ever have." The comment about Luffy was more than likely unrelated, just him commenting on how crazy the situation was at the prison. In fact, it is still possible he doesn't even know the connection between Luffy and Ace, as most people only just learned of it. It's not like Sengoku sent out a memo earlier. Though I wouldn't be surprised if Onigumo knew, it wouldn't change the nature of his comments to Ace.

[Jdanzi]

I like the way the Vice-Admirals from the bustercall have been getting into the story every here and there :)

[Ivotas]

@Ninjabrownie:

Of course it does. Why stretch your own forces when you have mercenaries?

Because it has been established that it is Marine HQ AND Shichibukai that rival the Yonkoh. If what you suggest is true then it should also mean that the own forces can take care of Whitebeard without the mercanaries. Which leaves the question, why the worries if ever last bit of military power is assambled already?

Unrelated to that though, Whitebeard is far more of a threat to the WG than eg Shanks, because he commands a large fleet. They occupy more territory, are at more places at the same time and can take on more enemies at once. If WB falls, the void in the New World that creates can be filled by anyone with the manpower to control that much territory.

That's just your assumption. There hasn't been anything mentioned in the story that indicates that Shanks doesn't have a fleet of his own. Sure we've seen him only have one ship but the same thing applies to Whitebeard. If Shanks is one of the "Emperors" that rule in the New World then he most likely rules over a large territory himself AND has a fleet of his own. And even if it's not as large as Newgates, the important fact is "Emperor on the same level as Whitebeard".

@dlo62282:

To be honest Ivotas, the marines seem pretty sure of themselves besides Sengoku. And he is just nervous because things are not going like he planned it to. I dont think he is worried as much as u think he is. He wants things to go as planned and to limit casualties on his side.

I haven't seen any Marine that looks confident as if there's a 100% chance of victory. And it's not just the Marines. Both Nyon and Ivankov have already made it clear (with their statements that Whitebeard could win respectively rescue Ace) that this is a 50/50 situation.

@Jdanzi:

I like the way the Vice-Admirals from the bustercall have been getting into the story every here and there :)

Yeah, me too. Especially since it's been the cool ones. Just hope Dobermann will appear too at some point and we'd have the three badasses completed. Couldn't care less for Yamakaji and Strawberry though.

[Jdanzi]

This whole 3 power thing just has so many contradictions, dare I say Oda appeals to be unsure of what the balance is.

[TLC]

@Ivotas:

Because it has been established that it is Marine HQ AND Shichibukai that rival the Yonkoh. If what you suggest is true then it should also mean that the own forces can take care of Whitebeard without the mercanaries. Which leaves the question, why the worries if ever last bit of military power is assambled already?

That's just your assumption. There hasn't been anything mentioned in the story that indicates that Shanks doesn't have a fleet of his own. Sure we've seen him only have one ship but the same thing applies to Whitebeard. If Shanks is one of the "Emperors" that rule in the New World then he most likely rules over a large territory himself AND has a fleet of his own. And even if it's not as large as Newgates, the important fact is "Emperor on the same level as Whitebeard".

I haven't seen any Marine that looks confident as if there's a 100% chance of victory. And it's not just the Marines. Both Nyon and Ivankov have already made it clear (with their statements that Whitebeard could win respectively rescue Ace) that this is a 50/50 situation.

Yeah, me too. Especially since it's been the cool ones. Just hope Dobermann will appear too at some point and we'd have the three badasses completed. Couldn't care less for Yamakaji and Strawberry though.

Eh? What's wrong with the other two? One of them saved a lot of Marines.

[Ivotas]

@Jdanzi:

This whole 3 power thing just has so many contradictions, dare I say Oda appeals to be unsure of what the balance is.

I actually don't see any contradictions there. It's just an idiotic concept to rely on pirates to create the Shichibukai instead of something else (for instance bounty hunters). But in itself it's pretty solid.

@Thousand:

Eh? What's wrong with the other two? One of them saved a lot of Marines.

I just don't like them. It's nothing more then a taste issue.^^

[Zkaiser]

I predict Dragon to appear within the next two chapters.

[TLC]

@Zkaiser:

I predict Dragon to appear within the next two chapters.

Dragon has no reason to go there now that Ace left. If anything, he'll probably show up at Marineford.

[MagneticMonkey]

@Thousand:

Dragon has no reason to go there now that Ace left. If anything, he'll probably show up at Marineford.

And Zkaiser never said Dragon will appear at ID. We're not only getting panels of ID in the last chapters…

[choperman]

Okay I know this isn't supposed to be here but I've decided a while back to stop making threads so if someone else wants too do it I found an intresting manga….. although it's only one chapter

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/jump_super_stars/v01/c001/

[Zkaiser]

I love Murata's art. Luffy's sea of fists was awesome

[Ninjabrownie]

@Ivotas:

Because it has been established that it is Marine HQ AND Shichibukai that rival the Yonkoh. If what you suggest is true then it should also mean that the own forces can take care of Whitebeard without the mercanaries. Which leaves the question, why the worries if ever last bit of military power is assambled already?

That's just your assumption. There hasn't been anything mentioned in the story that indicates that Shanks doesn't have a fleet of his own. Sure we've seen him only have one ship but the same thing applies to Whitebeard. If Shanks is one of the "Emperors" that rule in the New World then he most likely rules over a large territory himself AND has a fleet of his own. And even if it's not as large as Newgates, the important fact is "Emperor on the same level as Whitebeard".

You think too much in absolute terms. After the war, the participants will be considerably weakened. The WG cannot afford to lose its spheres of influence. Simply winning is not enough for them. They must remain the authority that holds together 170 countries, suppresses the revolutionaries and holds the Yonkou in check. Yes, the Shichibukai remain part of the equation, but if 3 of them fall in the war as opposed to say one admiral, the WG still played it smart. WB on the other hand has less to lose + risk assessment is not a part of their code of honour. As long as he shows the world he will not stand for anyone fucking with his crew and gets away alive with some champions from his crew, he more or less won.

2nd part, yeah, I think Shanks is the type that does not "rule" over territory. Its pure speculation to say he "most likely" has a fleet of his own. But you are right, I assume he does not, without really knowing - because whenever we saw him so far (which is a lot more often than WB) he was with his tight group of Nakama. His outlook on life is more like Luffy's. And I don't see Luffy commanding a fleet in the future, just enjoying freedom at sea with his crew.
As for their strength levels, I would agree (out of sentiment) that Shanks ship can take on the Moby Dick. My whole point was however, that even though weaker ships in the fleet mean nothing against the Emperors, they still claim space. If 16 divisions with 1600 people are disbanded, that opens a huge void in the New World. Conversely, those 16 divisions constitute something like the nation of Whitebeardians. We can agree to disagree that the Shankians are simply far less in number.

[Ivotas]

@Ninjabrownie:

You think too much in absolute terms. After the war, the participants will be considerably weakened. The WG cannot afford to lose its spheres of influence. Simply winning is not enough for them. They must remain the authority that holds together 170 countries, suppresses the revolutionaries and holds the Yonkou in check. Yes, the Shichibukai remain part of the equation, but if 3 of them fall in the war as opposed to say one admiral, the WG still played it smart. WB on the other hand has less to lose + risk assessment is not a part of their code of honour. As long as he shows the world he will not stand for anyone fucking with his crew and gets away alive with some champions from his crew, he more or less won.

That's exactly the point. Each side will be considerably weakend. And that only works if they are on an equal basis. If one side has the clear advantage then no matter how strong the other is it will be overpower thus not considerably weakening their opponent. The point stands that it has been stated nearly everywhere that both parties have the same chances of winning. That's why I say this is a 50/50 situation. If you take that to be thinking in asolute terms it can't be helped.

2nd part, yeah, I think Shanks is the type that does not "rule" over territory. Its pure speculation to say he "most likely" has a fleet of his own. But you are right, I assume he does not, without really knowing - because whenever we saw him so far (which is a lot more often than WB) he was with his tight group of Nakama. His outlook on life is more like Luffy's. And I don't see Luffy commanding a fleet in the future, just enjoying freedom at sea with his crew.

And where exactly is that different from what we saw of Newgate so far. We didn't see him rule over anything eather. IMO you are thinking a bit in too absolute terms. Ruling like Emperors does not mean that they govern regions with a large batch of politicians in their back. For a pirate ruling can just mean nothing more than "this area is my territory so you better watch what you do or you get problems with me". And to be honest I see Luffy become exactly such a person (without a fleet though).

As for their strength levels, I would agree (out of sentiment) that Shanks ship can take on the Moby Dick. My whole point was however, that even though weaker ships in the fleet mean nothing against the Emperors, they still claim space. If 16 divisions with 1600 people are disbanded, that opens a huge void in the New World. Conversely, those 16 divisions constitute something like the nation of Whitebeardians. We can agree to disagree that the Shankians are simply far less in number.

Numbers are not everything. You can be equal to someone without having the same amount of followers. I do think that Shanks has a little fleet of his own but I never said that it's necessarily as large as Newgate's. Point is that the equal to Whitebeard think means that the crew (meaning captains and crewmates together) are on the same level. And going by that, no matter how large or small the four Yonkoh crews are the Whitebeard Pirates are just one fourth of the Yonkoh. Which brings me back to the question "how can it be a 50/50 situation when the Whitebeard Pirates are only a fourth of what equals the WG's forces?". The answer is, it can't. One Yonkoh crew equals the WG's forces.

[Dragon Warrior Steve]

Blackbeard's black beard is coming out nicely. This was just an action chapter, but I'm curious why Blackbeard is at Impel Down. I thought he'd want a piece of Whitebeard but I guess not.

[Ivotas]

@Dragon:

Blackbeard's black beard is coming out nicely. This was just an action chapter, but I'm curious why Blackbeard is at Impel Down. I thought he'd want a piece of Whitebeard but I guess not.

He is there exactly because of that. :ninja:

[DaeJi]

This chapter is good, but not the best. But I think that this is a necessary chapter that will read better once the whole story is out.

Looking back, it really seems like this whole series of events is leading to one thing: the complete destruction of the first half of the Grand Line. Not in a literal sense, but in the sense that once this is all over, there will nothing left in the first half that can make an impact on the New World. This is what I have seen happening so far: Ever since Water 7, the stage was being set for this event (the end of the first half). All the pieces have been set, all the players put into their roles. Build up to the extreme. And now, ever since the last chapter, all the pieces are where they need to be. All that's left now is to start moving them. Which what I see this chapter as, one where the pieces are moving towards the end goal.

[smurfx]

@Ivotas:

Erm no, there's still three Yonkoh left to take care of. It is obvious now that this balance is "1 Yonkoh (including crew) = Marine HQ + 7 Shichibukai". If not then it wouldn't make sense for the WG's side being unsure if they can win. Remember how Garp said that it's a bad idea taking two legends at the same time (speaking of Newgate and Rayleigh). If that is a bother then there's no way that a fighting force of 4 Yonkoh (including crews) is what they can take on. Plus the Yonkoh aren't a group of allies but enemies (albeit Shanks having sympathy for Newgate). There's no reason for them to work together…yet. No matter how you look at it, all the infos we've got about this three great powers stuff points at it being "1 Yonkoh = Marine HQ + 7 Shichibukai". The opposite doesn't make sense with the info we have.

I agree though that the Shichibukai become obsolete once there's no Yonkoh left.

there's no guarantee that the other emperors are just as strong as whitebeard. in fact i think whitebeard is probably the strongest one since he most likely has the most men. i think the reason they don't go all out in a war is because there would be massive casualties on all sides that aren't worth it. once the world government gets a hold of whitebeards territory then they can start working on destroying the emperor who is closest to whitebeards territory. although i think i was a bit wrong. they might still need the shichibukai until they take down at least 2 or 3 of the emperors. although i doubt the shichibukai would be dumb enough to stick around knowing that eventually the world government will end up betraying them since they won't need them anymore.

[Ninjabrownie]

@Ivotas:

And to be honest I see Luffy become exactly such a person (without a fleet though).

Just like Shanks, right?

Couple of assumptions there to make your case…

1. Parties at war have to be about evenly strong to inflict damage on one another = FALSE
2. I implied WB employs a cabinet of ministers = FALSE
3. WB, one of the four Yonkou, weighs in at one fourth of the Yonkou combined strength -> It was stated that he's the strongest man in the world and closest to becoming PK
4. You, for whatever reason, state that "numbers are not everything" to make the case that WB and Shanks are evenly strong (despite:even though weaker ships in the fleet mean nothing against the Emperors, they still claim space.[..] those 16 divisions constitute something like the nation of Whitebeardians.). -> Not when giants face off, no, but yes when you are an organization that is opting for world domination - and fittingly call yourself the World Government. That's why I say WB is a bigger threat to the WG than Shanks.

If you take into account the point of view of the characters whose case you are arguing, you might reach different conclusions. The Marines have different motivations and objectives than pirates. Now, please stop putting words into my mouth for you to refute, you might as well argue with yourself in that case
Remember, this whole thing started because you said it would not make sense for the WG to call on the Shichibukai unless they absolutely needed them to make it 50/50.
I said it obviously makes sense to use mercenaries first.

I think/hope WB will tear the WG up by the way, with the help of Mihawk, Kuma and Hancock, while Dragon storms in on the flank. The new era is upon us. The World Government lost one stronghold to Luffy already, now their prison is being demolished.
Ah yeah that as well, think about it, with the embarrassing incident at Enies Lobby, the WG needs an overwhelming victory. They don't need the Shichibukai to even the odds, they need them because they are a rational organization. Sengoku cannot permit himself to "put his life on the line" and lunge into battle "without fear", because he has to consider the prestige of the WG and think ahead. Unlike carefree Garp for instance, who is in a way just as retarded as Luffy. As far as we know, Garp did not warn Sengoku that Dragon might show up as well.

[smurfx]

@Ivotas:

Well, I doubt that the other 3 guys are said to be on his level just for show. I have no doubts that he is the strongest of the three. But that doesn't mean that the others are much weaker. Point is, that the WG wasn't able to take out Shanks himself in all the time he's been around. Why should it be different for the other 2? Especially if it was said that all 4 rule in the New World like Emperors?

i think the main reason why the world government never went after the emperors is because they couldn't easily advance through the new world since the emperors pretty much rule it completely. if they go one way one emperor might get mad and go after them and if they go another route then the emperor ruling that territory might go after them. if whitebeard is gone then the world government can finally get a foothold in the new world and then go after the emperors with much more ease.

btw how do you guys think the emperors rule the lands? i think most of them probably have allies in pirates and those pirates are allowed to pirate freely as long as the emperors get a cut of the money. they probably invade the other emperors territory and cause as much disruption as they can and then they go back to their ally emperors territory for safety. of course there are the pirates who pirate through the new world without caring for the emperors territory but if they cause too much trouble then i think the emperors take them out. i think that is whats gonna happen to luffy. of course luffy won't become allied to some emperor and will most likely cause a bunch of trouble and catch the attention of an emperor and then get marked for death.

[Ninjabrownie]

^^ On that, the Gorousei got pissed that Aokiji left the base without notification. Since the WG and the Marines are not mobile outlaws, pirates that roam the seas, they have a base they need to protect.
I do think Aokiji and Kizaru combined could make Shanks' life difficult. But those two don't get to go pirate hunting in the New World, strategically that would be a horrible choice. (Omitted Akainu because I don't like him)
They're at a stalemate. If the marines send a force that could take on Shanks, their base, quite literally their king, is left too vulnerable. That's why they had to "draw [insert Yonkou] out". Bring the battle to their shores.

[Ivotas]

@smurfx:

there's no guarantee that the other emperors are just as strong as whitebeard. in fact i think whitebeard is probably the strongest one since he most likely has the most men. i think the reason they don't go all out in a war is because there would be massive casualties on all sides that aren't worth it. once the world government gets a hold of whitebeards territory then they can start working on destroying the emperor who is closest to whitebeards territory. although i think i was a bit wrong. they might still need the shichibukai until they take down at least 2 or 3 of the emperors. although i doubt the shichibukai would be dumb enough to stick around knowing that eventually the world government will end up betraying them since they won't need them anymore.

Well, I can only go with the info we have in the story so far and by that the other three are on the same level as him. That doesn't mean that he can't be the strongest but it can't be by much.

@Ninjabrownie:

Couple of assumptions there to make your case…

1. Parties at war have to be about evenly strong to inflict damage on one another = FALSE

Please, if you want to prove me wrong then play it fair and respond to what I actually said instead of putting words in my mouth. I said that they are evenly strong because everything inside the story defines the war as a exactly that. You're the one who started speaking about inflicting damage on each other.

I implied WB employs a cabinet of ministers = FALSE

I was using figurative speach. If you can't comprehend that then you should have put it like that:

"Ivotas assuming that Ninjabrownie can read comprehend figurative talk" = FALSE ;P

3. WB, one of the four Yonkou, weighs in at one fourth of the Yonkou combined strength -> It was stated that he's the strongest man in the world and closest to becoming PK

Being on an equal level does not mean that there can't be a clear ranking among them. Watch any kinds of sports for proof of that. I never said Whitebeard isn't the strongest, but it's not much of a difference. That's what makes it an equal level.

4. You, for whatever reason, state that "numbers are not everything" to make the case that WB and Shanks are evenly strong (despite:even though weaker ships in the fleet mean nothing against the Emperors, they still claim space.[..] those 16 divisions constitute something like the nation of Whitebeardians.). -> Not when giants face off, no, but yes when you are an organization that is opting for world domination - and fittingly call yourself the World Government. That's why I say WB is a bigger threat to the WG than Shanks.

I claim that for the simple reason that after reading 540 chapters of the story it should be clear that One Piece is the kind of manga where numbers don't matter, which is most evident when a little protagonist crew of not even 10 people constantly defeats antagonist groups of large numbers.

If you take into account the point of view of the characters whose case you are arguing, you might reach different conclusions. The Marines have different motivations and objectives than pirates. Now, please stop putting words into my mouth for you to refute, you might as well argue with yourself in that case

Looking a bit above at this post it rather appears as if you've been putting words in my mouth.

Remember, this whole thing started because you said it would not make sense for the WG to call on the Shichibukai unless they absolutely needed them to make it 50/50.

Which is exactly my point seeing that everything the story says about the balance of the three powers leads to this conclusion.

I said it obviously makes sense to use mercenaries first.

And I said I disagree with that. I can do that. It's a public forum. I think we should just agree to disagree on the whole matter.:happy:

[Ninjabrownie]

@Ivotas:

That's exactly the point. Each side will be considerably weakend. And that only works if they are on an equal basis. If one side has the clear advantage then no matter how strong the other is it will be overpower thus not considerably weakening their opponent.

Would you accept that "considerably weaken" and "inflicting damage" come down to the same thing?

@Ivotas:

IMO you are thinking a bit in too absolute terms. Ruling like Emperors does not mean that they govern regions with a large batch of politicians in their back.

No need to get personal, son. Just read what you write. Clear implication right there.

@Ivotas:

I never said Whitebeard isn't the strongest, [..]. That's what makes it an equal level.

:wassat:

We agree on the strength issue with regards to Shanks. You refuse to understand I'm saying WB stacks up differently towards the WG. The Marines have a navy, WB has a fleet. The champions can go head to head while the soldiers go at it. Yonkou with smaller to no fleet = less of a threat to the WG.

:getlost:

Come to think of it, the story just revealed the WG has Kuma sized robots that shoot laser beams. Four of them, at least. Ok two at least, one might be out of commission and one sent flying.

@Ivotas:

And I said I disagree with that [it obviously makes sense to use mercenaries first.]. I can do that. It's a public forum. I think we should just agree to disagree on the whole matter.

Sure you can.

[Ivotas]

@Ninjabrownie:

Would you accept that "considerably weaken" and "inflicting damage" come down to the same thing?

Would you accept that you've been the first to say "considerably weaken" and me being the one taking these words from you.

We agree on the strength issue with regards to Shanks. You refuse to understand I'm saying WB stacks up differently towards the WG. The Marines have a navy, WB has a fleet. The champions can go head to head while the soldiers go at it. Yonkou with smaller to no fleet = less of a threat to the WG.

The thing is though that Whitebeards fleet is 1600 men strong, while what the Marine has at it's disposal goes up to the tenth of thousands. You see no difference here?

What I'm saying is not that Whitebeard doesn't have a fleet, I'm saying that by sheer size his fleet doesn't match the Marine fleet. So even if Shanks has only half as much men (or even less) at his disposal as Whitebeard the sole number of men in Newgate's fleet would hardly be what makes the difference here if you consider how large the strenght of numbers for the Marine is.

[Ninjabrownie]

@Ivotas:

Would you accept that you've been the first to say "considerably weaken" and me being the one taking these words from you.

Sure you can always go ahead and copy me, I don't mind. Just don't go crying afterwards that I put words in your mouth.

@Ivotas:

The thing is though that Whitebeards fleet is 1600 men strong, while what the Marine has at it's disposal goes up to the tenth of thousands. You see no difference here?

What I'm saying is not that Whitebeard doesn't have a fleet, I'm saying that by sheer size his fleet doesn't match the Marine fleet. So even if Shanks has only half as much men (or even less) at his disposal as Whitebeard the sole number of men in Newgate's fleet would hardly be what makes the difference here if you consider how large the strenght of numbers for the Marine is.

A good argument, the pirate fleet would pale in comparison anyway.

But here's the thing: Say the 3 Admirals + Sengoku are locked in battled with the main ship. A Yonkou with a strong fleet like WB can inflict more collateral damage than a yonkou with no, or small, fleet. This is catastrophic to the marines. Every vessel they lose is one patrol ship less in their 170 COUNTRIES THEY NEED TO CONTROL. Defend from, say, revolutionaries who are trying to topple the WG. Damage to their navy -> less influence in the world -> less countries under their control -> less resources to draw from -> less money for Vegapunks research and fewer senbei for Garp.
So out of respect for Garp, please finally understand this.

[Phoenix Zoan]

Sheer numbers don't really matter in this manga. It's the quality of the individual. Luffy took out like half of EL by himself when he stormed it before everyone else arrived. WB may have 1600 pirate strong but probably 70-90% of that are fodder. When Shanks boarded WB's ship and he did his haki threat. Almost all of the crew passed out except for the named WB crew members. So yeah fodder pirates do exist on WB's crew.

As for the World balance it seems to be 1 yonkou = MHQ+Schibukai. When Shanks approached WB the marines freaked that if they joined it would upset the world balance. If it was infact 4 yonkou = MHQ+ 7 Schichibukai that wouldn't make sense since 2 yonkou isn't greater than 4 Yonkou. But who have to think of the Yonkou as competing entities. So although they are lumped together as 4 Yonkou they aren't one big superpower but 4 competing ones. And if say 2 of those were to join if would fuck up the whole world balance up.

[Ivotas]

@Ninjabrownie:

Sure you can always go ahead and copy me, I don't mind. Just don't go crying afterwards that I put words in your mouth.

Play it fair. I was simply replying to a statement of yours which you turned around that way as if I was the the one bringing up that point.

But here's the thing: Say the 3 Admirals + Sengoku are locked in battled with the main ship. A Yonkou with a strong fleet like WB can inflict more collateral damage than a yonkou with no, or small, fleet. This is catastrophic to the marines. Every vessel they lose is one patrol ship less in their 170 COUNTRIES THEY NEED TO CONTROL. Defend from, say, revolutionaries who are trying to topple the WG. Damage to their navy -> less influence in the world -> less countries under their control -> less resources to draw from -> less money for Vegapunks research and fewer senbei for Garp.
So out of respect for Garp, please finally understand this.

This is exactly the point I'm arguing. I think that (without the top fighters) Whitebeard's and Shanks' crew isn't that different in strenght even if Shanks would have less men. If they are said to be on equal level then the overall difference can't be large. In other words even if Shanks has about half as men as Newgate he should be able to deal out roughly the same damage to the Marine forces as Newgate. Otherwise the two wouldn't be on the same level. Get what I mean?

@Phoenix:

Sheer numbers don't really matter in this manga. It's the quality of the individual. Luffy took out like half of EL by himself when he stormed it before everyone else arrived. WB may have 1600 pirate strong but probably 70-90% of that are fodder. When Shanks boarded WB's ship and he did his haki threat. Almost all of the crew passed out except for the named WB crew members. So yeah fodder pirates do exist on WB's crew.

As for the World balance it seems to be 1 yonkou = MHQ+Schibukai. When Shanks approached WB the marines freaked that if they joined it would upset the world balance. If it was infact 4 yonkou = MHQ+ 7 Schichibukai that wouldn't make sense since 2 yonkou isn't greater than 4 Yonkou. But who have to think of the Yonkou as competing entities. So although they are lumped together as 4 Yonkou they aren't one big superpower but 4 competing ones. And if say 2 of those were to join if would fuck up the whole world balance up.

Don't carelessly throw waste the aces I've kept in my sleeve. :ninja:

[Ninjabrownie]

@Phoenix:

Sheer numbers don't really matter in this manga. It's the quality of the individual.

In battles with giants, no. If you're in the business of ruling the world, yes.

@Phoenix:

WB may have 1600 pirate strong but probably 70-90% of that are fodder. When Shanks boarded WB's ship and he did his haki threat. Almost all of the crew passed out except for the named WB crew members.

I resent that. But even so, you're saying there is between 160 and 480 strong pirates in WB's fleet. That's more than we've seen so far.

@Phoenix:

As for the World balance it seems to be 1 yonkou = MHQ+Schibukai. When Shanks approached WB the marines freaked that if they joined it would upset the world balance. If it was infact 4 yonkou = MHQ+ 7 Schichibukai that wouldn't make sense since 2 yonkou isn't greater than 4 Yonkou. But who have to think of the Yonkou as competing entities. So although they are lumped together as 4 Yonkou they aren't one big superpower but 4 competing ones. And if say 2 of those were to join if would fuck up the whole world balance up.

Yeah ok w/e. In that case, the brilliant strategists at Marine HQ would of course not have bothered with ensuring the Shichibukai's cooperation before setting the gears in motion. Good thing Hancock showed up just in time!
Not to get it twisted, my point is that the Shichibukai are the WG's fodder. Operation "Human Shield". Let them do the heavy battling, instant win for the WG (who cannot permit themselves to suffer heavy casualties, because that would severely undermine their spheres of influence).

But hey, if you're right, the Marines just gained points in my book. Its pretty damn ballsy to wager their authority against defeat in a battle where they have an even chance of losing.

Ah by the way, Kizaru, 500 pirates in 60 seconds.
Aokiji, no words. Shit is going down!

[Ninjabrownie]

@Ivotas:

Play it fair. I was simply replying to a statement of yours which you turned around that way as if I was the the one bringing up that point.

Ah now I get it…

@Ivotas:

This is exactly the point I'm arguing. I think that (without the top fighters) Whitebeard's and Shanks' crew isn't that different in strenght even if Shanks would have less men. If they are said to be on equal level then the overall difference can't be large. In other words even if Shanks has about half as men as Newgate he should be able to deal out roughly the same damage to the Marine forces as Newgate. Otherwise the two wouldn't be on the same level. Get what I mean?

Don't forget guys like Ace head those divisions. And guys like Garp head the other Marine forces. It makes a huge difference how well you can stack up along the sidelines - IN TERMS OF DAMAGE POTENTIAL TOWARDS THE NAVY. No further need for discussion, if you ever consider a career in finance or strategy, please, avoid risk analysis.

@Ivotas:

Don't carelessly throw waste the aces I've kept in my sleeve. :ninja:

:wub:

[Ivotas]

@Ninjabrownie:

Don't forget guys like Ace head those divisions. And guys like Garp head the other Marine forces. It makes a huge difference how well you can stack up along the sidelines - IN TERMS OF DAMAGE POTENTIAL TOWARDS THE NAVY. No further need for discussion, if you ever consider a career in finance or strategy, please, avoid risk analysis.

The point is the that the WG considers the Yonkoh to be on equal grounds. This means no matter how different their numbers are with the information we have so far it appears that Whitebeard and Shanks are on the same level. So no matter who has more men in the eyes of the WG they are considered to be able to deal out the same damage to the WG's forces.

Why can't you simply use your time to comprehend that instead of wasting it on smartass remarks of offensive nature? The more you do that the more you prove that you're not able talking on a level headed basis, meaning you hurt your own arguments more then mine.

[Ninjabrownie]

@Ivotas:

I was using figurative speach. If you can't comprehend that then you should have put it like that:

"Ivotas assuming that Ninjabrownie can read comprehend figurative talk" = FALSE ;P

@Ivotas:

Why can't you simply use your time to comprehend that instead of wasting it on smartass remarks of offensive nature?

Touché

@Ivotas:

The point is the that the WG considers the Yonkoh to be on equal grounds. [..] So no matter who has more men in the eyes of the WG they are considered to be able to deal out the same damage to the WG's forces.

Find me a quote of that - and I don't mean no-name no-rank marines freaking out at the message of two names they're scared shitless of meeting for a talk.
As for now, it is what you consider to be true.

[Ivotas]

@Ninjabrownie:

Touché

Thanks. Apparantly you're not Phenomenol/WHITEBEARD/Miracles. My mistake then. I take everything back on that front and apologize.

Find me a quote of that - and I don't mean no-name no-rank marines freaking out at the message of two names they're scared shitless of meeting for a talk.
As for now, it is what you consider to be true.

There's no direct quote since it's a matter if simply connecting the dots between the following facts:

The Yonkoh rule the New World seas like Emperors,
To do that they must be pretty strong, so strong that the Marine can't touch them,
The Marine (and thus the WG) considers them to all be on the same level,
In the consequence that means they (WG) expect them (Yonkoh) to have the same battle power.

That said, what they fear of Whitebeard must also be roughly the same what they fear of the other three.

[Ninjabrownie]

@Ivotas:

Thanks. Apparantly you're not Phenomenol/WHITEBEARD/Miracles. My mistake then. I take everything back on that front and apologize.

Lol I was exposing your hypocrisy. But no problem, glad I could make you feel good about yourself.

@Ivotas:

There's no direct quote, it's what makes sense if you consider the following:

The Yonkoh rule the New World seas like Emperors,
To do that they must be pretty strong, so strong that the Marine can't touch them,
The Marine (and thus the WG) considers them to all be on the same level,
In the consequence that means they expect them to have the same battle power.

It's not a quote as you desired. But it's a simple matter of connecting the dots.

No its not, you lazy you, there is a lot of assumption on your part thrown in their.
As for how a large fleet could potentially do more damage to the navy I'd say that is a matter of connecting the dots.

[Ivotas]

@Ninjabrownie:

Lol I was exposing your hypocrisy. But no problem, glad I could make you feel good about yourself.

I know. And with my previous post I admitted that even. But by doing so you've proved my wrong in assuming you're Phenomenol/WHITEBEARD/Miracles. Feel free to send me a PM if you want me to further explain what I mean by that.

No its not, you lazy you, there is a lot of assumption on your part thrown in their.
As for how a large fleet could potentially do more damage to the navy I'd say that is a matter of connecting the dots.

But the thing is that a crew of 1600 members is not a large fleet at all when facing a fleet of tenth of thousands Marines. The sheer numbers can't inflict that much damage here. Not in One Piece.

But since it appears that the fleet thing doesn't get us anywhere I'll use a different approach to show why it makes most sense that it's 1 Yonkoh = Marine HQ + 7 Shichibukai: Kaidoh's move to strike down Whitebeard.

If the WG's side is really so stronger then any of the other Yonkoh alone, why doesn't Kaidoh use the chance and join Whitebeard in order to take the WG down? If they really are superior then him alone then he'd be interested taking care of them but all he does is attacking Whitebeard. This clearly shows that the WG isn't as much a bother to him as Newgate.

Furthermore if it would be 4 Yonkoh = Marine HQ + 7 Shichibukai, then he'd better help Whitebeard out because if Newgate falls the remaining three won't be able to defend against the WG anymore. But nope, he choses to attack Newgate instead of the WG, proving how much of enemies they are and that a 4 Yonkoh = Marine HQ + 7 Shichibukai is a no go.

[Captain Shmeckie]

Why is it people keep trying to apply math to this series?!

The reason I contested the math in the first place was that the Warlords do not and should not be counted amongst the Marines. Lemme throw some crazy math of my own out here…

1 King = WG, but all 4 Kings also = WG. How is this possible? Lemme try and keep this simple, because as you may know I despise long posts. Reading them and writing them.

There are basicvally 5 global rulers; the 4 Kings and the Gov't. The Kings, however, are driven by self-interest, while the Gov't and the Marines are trying to preserve law and order. It's like a real gov't vs. organized crime. The ruling gov't has the actual power, so to speak, but the criminal leaders still give them problems, and confronting them directly is often a bad idea.

As for the Warlords, they're an obvious deal with the devil. A third party to provide backup for the WG's actual military. Also, they allow the gov't to retain global control, since they keep the Kings from trying anything; the 4 Kings may have crews like their own personal armies, thay can't go after the WG, because the gov't can bust out these ruthless motherfuckers they have on their payroll. However, they don't factor into the equasion, because they, too, are driven by self interest. They just help, they're not really part of the whole entity of the gov't and the Marines. As for the Marines, they may be in tatters right now, but they're far from impotent against these guys.

Whitebeard's not doing this out of any kind of pride, it's near-familial loyalty. The lives of one of his boys is in danger, and he's gotta pull off a rescue at all costs. That's how he rolls, and that's why the gov't is being so serious about this; this is more than just a power struggle, this is a powerful man fighting out of a strong loyalty. He's going to stop at nothing, and they know that.

Like Luffy on steroids.

One of the biggest reasons, though, that I don't believe that an Emperor is that big a threat is the prevailing attitude from other pirates we've been seeing. No fear, just an overwhelming desire to kill Whitebeard. Doflamingo was happy at the idea, Crocodile's salivating at the chance to kill this guy, none of the Warlords have come off as even remotely worried... It's all been Sengoku running himself ragged. I think they all know it's going to be tough, and due to Whitebeard's motives, he's going to put up a fierce fight. The gov't doesn't want to take heavy damage (remember, they can't just win, they need to stay strong after the fight), so they cover all their bases.

That said, I can see how it would prop WB up in the minds of some viewers, though.

[Ninjabrownie]

@Ivotas:

But the thing is that a crew of 1600 members is not a large fleet at all when facing a fleet of tenth of thousands Marines. The sheer numbers can't inflict that much damage here. Not in One Piece.

The thing is that Whitebeard's divisions are headed by guys of this caliber.
And man, for someone to pertinently deny the relative force of WB's fleet (basically saying Ace and the other division commanders are just as strong as … the absence of a fleet, hence, zero, nothing), and finally having settled with the 'Oh but One Piece is not about numbers' argument, you sure get off on comparing powers in numerical terms. All that was ever said is that those 3 forces provide balance in the world. No need for you to throw formula's around.

@Ivotas:

If the WG's side is really so stronger then any of the other Yonkoh alone, why doesn't Kaidoh use the chance and join Whitebeard in order to take the WG down? If they really are superior then him alone then he'd be interested taking care of them but all he does is attacking Whitebeard. This clearly shows that the WG isn't as much a bother to him as Newgate.

Furthermore if it would be 4 Yonkoh = Marine HQ + 7 Shichibukai, then he'd better help Whitebeard out because if Newgate falls the remaining three won't be able to defend against the WG anymore. But nope, he choses to attack Newgate instead of the WG, because they are enemies. Thus proving that 4 Yonkoh = Marine HQ + 7 Shichibukai is a no go.

No. Kaidou not joining up with WB to attack the WG proves nothing.

And breaking free from this mind numbing discussion, comes Shmeckie to the rescue:

@Captain:

Whitebeard's not doing this out of any kind of pride, it's near-familial loyalty. The lives of one of his boys is in danger, and he's gotta pull off a rescue at all costs. That's how he rolls, and that's why the gov't is being so serious about this; this is more than just a power struggle, this is a powerful man fighting out of a strong loyalty. He's going to stop at nothing, and they know that.

Like Luffy on steroids.

YES!! Not sure if anyone said this before, but the upcoming War is like (Enies Lobby)^10.
Featuring

• Fire Fist Ace in the role of Nico Robin, aka the lamb
• The Whitebeard Pirates in the role of the Strawhats, more fierce than ever
• Rocet Man replaced by the colossal Moby Dick
• The Shichibukai, (Vice-)Admirals and Pacifista's in the role of CP9, more overwhelming than ever
• More cannon fodder to go around
• More blood, more drama and more sex (??)
• Shot at the most beautiful locations, such as the royal execution grounds, Marineford (Marine Fort i guess) itself and on the waves of the sea

Enies Lobby, the sequel!!!

[Shishi-O]

@Ninjabrownie:

The thing is that Whitebeard's divisions are headed by guys of this caliber.
And man, for someone to pertinently deny the relative force of WB's fleet (basically saying Ace and the other division commanders are just as strong as … the absence of a fleet, hence, zero, nothing), and finally having settled with the 'Oh but One Piece is not about numbers' argument, you sure get off on comparing powers in numerical terms. All that was ever said is that those 3 forces provide balance in the world. No need for you to throw formula's around.

No. Kaidou not joining up with WB to attack the WG proves nothing.

And breaking free from this mind numbing discussion, comes Shmeckie to the rescue:

YES!! Not sure if anyone said this before, but the upcoming War is like (Enies Lobby)^10.
Featuring

• Fire Fist Ace in the role of Nico Robin, aka the lamb
• The Whitebeard Pirates in the role of the Strawhats, more fierce than ever
• Rocet Man replaced by the colossal Moby Dick
• The Shichibukai, (Vice-)Admirals and Pacifista's in the role of CP9, more overwhelming than ever
• More cannon fodder to go around
• More blood, more drama and more sex (??)
• Shot at the most beautiful locations, such as the royal execution grounds, Marineford (Marine Fort i guess) itself and on the waves of the sea

Enies Lobby, the sequel!!!

calling this ginormous cluster fuck EL 2 is more than a little stretch.

this shyte is Ubar!!

[Gabbe]

@Ninjabrownie:

No. Kaidou not joining up with WB to attack the WG proves nothing.

And breaking free from this mind numbing discussion, comes Shmeckie to the rescue:

If the WG cant handle Rayleigh (a single guy) and WB how could they handle Kaidou and WB?

[TokageMoria]

Oh shit! If the Blackbeard Pirates are here, i wanna see Doc Q show his worth, and i wanna know wat Hannyabel and Doc Q have in their bags. I wanna know!

[Yonkou3]

Just read from chapter 536-present. I have 8 words for you.

HOLY SHIT! and Laffete has wings?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!

[brennen.exe]

@Yonkou#3:

I have 8 words for you.

HOLY SHIT! and Laffete has wings?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Truly astounding…

[Greg]

Thank the Maker! The spoiler that I thought was a spoiler in anime forum wasn't even related to this chapter.

That was a close one.

What a stunning development. Did anyone call that? Because even though it didn't compare to the surprise of CP9, my brain short-circuited for a moment seeing him there.

ID just went from FUCKING CRAZY to full-on Sybil in about two pages.

WHY MUST YOU CONTINUE TO WASTE A FULL WEEK ON A GODDAMN AVIAN LIFE-FORM ODA!!!!

seeks comfort until next Saturday

[Ivotas]

@Ninjabrownie:

And man, for someone to pertinently deny the relative force of WB's fleet (basically saying Ace and the other division commanders are just as strong as … the absence of a fleet, hence, zero, nothing), and finally having settled with the 'Oh but One Piece is not about numbers' argument, you sure get off on comparing powers in numerical terms. All that was ever said is that those 3 forces provide balance in the world. No need for you to throw formula's around.

I think that after over 540 chapters it should be clear that One Piece isn't the story where numbers mean as much as you give them credit. If you think different it can't be helped.

No. Kaidou not joining up with WB to attack the WG proves nothing.

Then please provide an explenation if you want to prove that point.

[Greg]

YES!! Not sure if anyone said this before, but the upcoming War is like (Enies Lobby)^10.
Featuring

• Fire Fist Ace in the role of Nico Robin, aka the lamb
• The Whitebeard Pirates in the role of the Strawhats, more fierce than ever
• Rocet Man replaced by the colossal Moby Dick
• The Shichibukai, (Vice-)Admirals and Pacifista's in the role of CP9, more overwhelming than ever
• More cannon fodder to go around
• More blood, more drama and more sex (??)
• Shot at the most beautiful locations, such as the royal execution grounds, Marineford (Marine Fort i guess) itself and on the waves of the sea

So your argument is, if I understand correctly, it's exactly the same but for the fact that everything is different?

[Ninjabrownie]

^^ Yep! The stuff good sequels are made of Same concept, different stage.

@Gabbe:

If the WG cant handle Rayleigh (a single guy) and WB how could they handle Kaidou and WB?

First off, Garp is no strategist, nor does he seem capable of proper assessment. He believes in dreams and legends. Like Luffy. And judging from that fight (Kizaru vs Rayleigh), a second Admiral on scene would have done the trick. Garp demonstrated poor judgement whenever he decided on anything, ticking off Sengoku.

Second, for the Marines its not a matter of winning 'at all costs', like pirates who "put their life on the line". The Marines have 170 countries to control. They have to take the continuing threat of revolutionaries into account. So going all out is not an option for them, their organization is blessed with people that think ahead.

So this goes to show that from the Marines point of view, they lose if only half or even less than half of their navy is destroyed.

Somebody else brought Kaidou into the equation. Honestly, with what we know about Kaidou (only that he attacked WB), any theory on the motivations for his actions is in the realm of fantasy. I personally like to imagine he attacked WB because he's a pirate

[Ivotas]

^ Intersting that you don't provide any explenation for why my Kaidoh point doesn't prove anything. I take that you don't have any then?

@Ninjabrownie:

First off, Garp is no strategist, nor does he seem capable of proper assessment. He believes in dreams and legends. Like Luffy. And judging from that fight (Kizaru vs Rayleigh), a second Admiral on scene would have done the trick. Garp demonstrated poor judgement whenever he decided on anything, ticking off Sengoku.

I'd say that a person that has cornered Roger countless times pretty much can make a proper judgement about the enemies abilities, no matter if he is a good or bad strategist.

Second, for the Marines its not a matter of winning 'at all costs', like pirates who "put their life on the line". The Marines have 170 countries to control. They have to take the continuing threat of revolutionaries into account. So going all out is not an option for them, their organization is blessed with people that think ahead.

Funny only though that in chapter 524 it is said that every shred of military force is gathering at Marineford. What remains is what Drake labeled as "beeing awefully short on hands" which I have serious doubts in being able to protect much against the likes of Dragon's revolution.

Furthermore it doesn't appear as if protecting the countries against the revolution falls under the Marines jurisdiction. At the kings council six years ago they even adressed that it is a matter of the countries working together in order to protect themselves.

[Ninjabrownie]

@Ivotas:

No Ivotas, I can't explain your fantasies. I showed, by quoting you, on numerous occasions that you 'adapt' your thoughts to continue your argument. Short-term memory is a tricky thing and its tough being called point blank on your mistakes, I understand. But, to put it bluntly, seeing Kaidou's attack on WB as proof for your theory, is not worthy arguing. Just be happy with your imagination on this, okay.

Now before you start commending Luffy on his intelligence, lets conclude your argument about chapter 524 with another of your quotes, shall we?

@Ivotas:

If one side has the clear advantage then no matter how strong the other is it will be overpower thus not considerably weakening their opponent.

<- quote out of context, regardless, moments of insight should be cherished.

Exactly Ivotas, the brilliant tacticians at Marine Fort will have thought the same. "The more power we have the less casualties we suffer."