@MagneticMonkey:
@ivotas
'This is long so i hide it.
Ok, I'm gonna hide too.^^
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The fact that luffy looses 3 times against croc (considering the fact that he would have died if noone had the antidote) is normal to me cause croc was the first logia enemy thus far. And he was the first super enemy of luffy after his entrance in the grand line. But compared to the world… There are enough logias out there. Without his DF imo croc would have never made it thus far. Of course he perfected his DF abilities.
But the point is that Luffy only lost the first round because of the Logia component. The second two fights were clearly not because of that but because of Crocodile's combat skills. Ok, in round two it was still his DF ability Crocodile used to win but hey it wasn't because of the "a logia is untouchable component". I mean, if he'd have the "Dehydration Paramecia" the result of round two would have been the same. It's definitely not a logia thing anymore. If it would be, then we'd be starting to question DF abilities as a whole and then Luffy would just have to be thrown in the boat too.
And finally round three isn't even a DF matter at all. The poison hook is practically a basic combat skill with weapons. So yeah, my point still stands that you give Crocodile less credit then he deserves.
First of all i would like to define defeat and victory in a battle. To me winning in a battle is to defeat the enemy while still standing and be able to move. Thus to me luffy didn't win against croc nor did he against moria or lucci. He stopped them. He knocked them Ko but the price was throwing his life away to do it. It's a reckless battle. The fact that luffy was practically killed is regarding my arguments normal. It's his nature. Maybe that oda decided to bring the situation thus far in the fight against croc just to show the level of the see. But we have seen so much since croc. Back then luffy without his gears technique only relying on his strength and will was able to stop croc. Now he is a lot stronger. If we now compare croc to the other fighters like enel, moria, or ace etc, he really doesn't look that strong.
This is where I disagree for the simple fact that OP doesn't follow the Dragonball concept where the previous antagonist couldn't hand his own in a battle against the next antagonist. One Piece actually uses the Paper, Rock, Scissors principle on that field. Of course there's that doesn't mean that this applies to all, but there is groups into which you can devide the antagonist. One group would be the East Blue villains (in which you could also throw in the minor Grand Line villains like Wapol, Bellamy and Foxy). And the other group would be the big Grand Line antagonists.
That said, I really don't see why Crocodile shouldn't win against Enel, Rucchi and Moria. Yes, with their power all three could defeat him. BUT with his power he could also defeat each one of them. The way all the four are portrayed, there's no clear outcome. True, Rucchi has better combat abilities then the others, but Croc could go Logia and Poison Hook on him. Tekkai doesn't help much against these. On the other hand with liquid it's pretty likely that Rucchi will take him down. On the other hand Enel could use Mantra and again his DF against Rucchi. Again, Rokushiki doesn't help much against these. And against Moria's power it doesn't help much either. On the other hand, Rucchi can be quick enough to beat up Moria if he doesn't keep up. And back to Croc (and Enel as another Logia) Moria can easily deal with them once he gets their shadows. But if they turn into their elements, they pretty much can dehodrate respetively "flash" him.
So yeah, they pretty much are all on equal ground. Ok, with that Croc might not be as unique as he was before. But he didn't weaker as you make it out to seem.
Luffy still doesn't know how to fight logias. He would be/is unable to fight against smoker… It's still a broken power unless new informations come on how rayleigh managed to block kizaru. I for myself find those logia DF a broken power. Every avarage fighter can become super strong with such a DF power. It's too easy. That's why i think that haki will detrone those logia fighters. Basically what i'm trying to say is that it's even a miracle that luffy managed to win against croc with his strength level back then and given the fact that croc has broken power which i don't consider a sign of greatness.
No doubts here, but that's the next level that will get into play in the New World. So far we're argumenting Grand Line material, because I seriously doubt that the WG has much (if any except Ace) prisoners from NW at Impel Down right now. So we return to what I said a couple of posts ago. Of what the WG has imprisoned, Crocodile seems to fit with the big boys. That the NW is a whole new level doesn't change anything if there's no prisoners from there.
And yeah poison is a bad thing. This last move of croc shows how desperate he was… He has tried to kill him twice and it didn't work (even if luffy survived this with luck. But he is also special to have escaped 3 times death with only luck...). So the great croc decided to use poison :) I mean that's not what i see under strong fighter :)
Well, it's not like he convinced Luffy to drink it but rather he used it in an armed battle. If that doesn't speak for basic combat skills then Zoro also doesn't count as a good fighter because he's always using swords.
Unless the 2 admirals we have seen thus far show me other fighting abilities they will all be thrown in the same bag as croc. Broken power! To me a top fighter must be able to handle logia DF users or other naturally strong opponents.
Actually Kizaru's Logia pretty much requires some tough ass mothersmurfer. I mean imagine if Usopp would have that ability. He'd break his bones with the first light speed kick he uses. The speed is weight factor doesn't only apply to the one you hit but also to the one who attacks. If you have a weak body your bones will shater ones you use light speed attacks with your real body. But apparently it didn't have any effect on Kizaru.
Also Aokiji didn't seem to have been impressed much from Luffy's punch to his stomach. Not to mention that he was able to easily grap Sanji and Zoro. That they were standing there can't be an excuse. If you're directly confronting an opponent you'd have to have your defenses sharpened.
And why do they all loose composure? There are imo opinion 2 possible answers to it:
- Luffy is too weak to compete with them so Oda has to make the enemy make huge errors leading to his defeat.
- They can't stand that a rookie who doesn't know the see is able to stand in front of them and defend what he stands for… Basically they are arrogant. They think that there is no way they can loose to luffy. Seeing that luffy is still fighting till death makes them basically loose their composure cause in their world something like that isn't possible.
Actually I'd chose a combination of both. Going by fighting power alone (no matter if DF abilities or combat skills) Luffy isn't as good as them. Let's face it he has a rather inferior DF ability and his combat skills are the ones of a brawler and not of a trained martial artist. On that field he's weaker. But he's stronger then anyone because of his inner spear (as Zeff has called it). The has the heart of a true fighter which it is that makes him win the fight. Yes, that makes Crocodile inferior to him. But I ask you, is there any antagonists that in the end won't be inferior because of exactly that? No matter who the final villain will be, he'll fall because of the very same thing. I don't see how this can be an argument against Crocodile when each single villain is destined to end like that.
To be honest i don't know on what Van auger based this statement. Maybe that he was just impressed to see that someone would fight still knowing that he will loose? Maybe that oda hasn't shown us the whole fight. But i couldn't see any basic battle skills in this fight. Ace only used his logia abilities.
Actually it's pretty clear what Auger is basing this statement on. Teach used his ability on Ace and it wasn't an OHKO. Which means Ace was so good as a fighter to put up a really hard fight even though fighting handicapped.
Fact is to me croc is a mastermind with broken powers. He was able to do so much damage to alabasta cause he knew there is noone there who can oppose him. I bet he has no chance against the top tier fighters of the world. He was just unlucky that luffy crushed his plan.
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Well as I said before, apparently none of the other guys like Enel, Rucchi and Moria can't. Does that make them low tiers? I think not. Ok, they perhaps don't belong in the Champions League, but they are pretty high still. And Croc is just one of them.