During the entire EL arc, I have NOT seen Usopp display that sort of bravery.
You forget about the first half of the arc, where Usopp instigated pretty much all the fights he was in. Granted he lost, but it wasn't because he was a coward.
During the entire EL arc, I have NOT seen Usopp display that sort of bravery.
You forget about the first half of the arc, where Usopp instigated pretty much all the fights he was in. Granted he lost, but it wasn't because he was a coward.
You forget about the first half of the arc, where Usopp instigated pretty much all the fights he was in. Granted he lost, but it wasn't because he was a coward.
You mean the Water7 fights against the Franky Family and stuff?
Yeah.
sixteen
So all I'm saying is…here are the reasons as to why I'm not satisfied with Usopp in this arc. Feel free to shoot it down.
That's fine, I'm not here to shoot your opinions down. Can you shoot my opinions down and make me feel the way you do? Probably not. You gave your reasons why you're disappointed, I gave my reasons why I'm not so disappointed. I am just a tiny bit, but not in the way that some people are for a lot of reasons. And I do understand where you and Terek and Aldrich and so forth are coming from, although I don't quite understand the vehemence…
If you asked me what I was expecting right after the Usopp v. Luffy fight, I would say that I expect, or at least hope, is that 1) his fighting for Merry would be explained more, and prove to be a good thing, and I believe it was proven to be 2) that he would realize what his worth in the crew is 3) that he would get over his pride and be the one that sets things right with Luffy. I'm really hoping hard that will happen in the next chapter. If Oda screws up how he deals with Usopp rejoining the crew, then I'll be quite miffed.
I didn't really expect Usopp to do any fighting that would somehow prove his worth until it looked like he was paired with Jyabura, something that never sat well with me from the beginning and I was almost a bit relieved when the situation changed.
I could say that while I was not overly impressed with Usopp's actions in Enies lobby, I was not bitterly disappointed by any means. My thoughts tend to just go in the direction of "if it didn't happen here, it's for a good reason, and I'll just see where Oda takes it from here".
After all, it's just manga. I don't see the point of overthinking things so much that my enjoyment is taken away.
The rest of your post is exactly what I expect to hear from you, because I've been in this same discussion more times than I'd like and it always comes down to the same thing. Telling me what I'm supposed to expect out of Shounen manga means little to me because One Piece is the only manga I actively read. What I expect is based on what I have read for 435 chapters. That's all. I don't expect Luffy to become "emotionally mature" because that would be...not Luffy, and not One Piece.
Fact is, what I usually expect and enjoy out of One Piece is exactly what happens. :/ That's why I like it.
Edit:
EDIT: I'm glad that even after 5 pages of discussion, this thread has remained flame-free. :D
It's really not hard to keep it flame free as long as people keep their emotions in check and don't desire to actively piss the other off. :) And also it helps to know that people can get banned for flaming. >D
taboo,
Man, that's exactly why I'm upset about. Earlier in the arc, you have Usopp who confronts the FF for stealing their money. (IIRC). Then, in the actual fights against the CP9, he can't show even a bit of that resolve? I mean, come on…
Well, really the two incidents aren't all that much different.
Facing Franky Family - he immediately got beat.
Facing Jyabura - He immediately got beat. He didn't run from Jyabura, he said "I'm your opponent" and tried to fight him, but he was sadly and pathetically tricked first, and then skewered with 5-finger shigan.
Actually, the bounty is fitting if you look at it like this. Things like burning a flag and beating Spandam are things that anyone can do, but they are also things that cause a lot of enmity in the world government.
Burning a flag? That just shows Sogeking is an arsehole, and that arsehole is going to widen when the Marines throw his arse in prison. There's nothing threatening about burning a flag, since it's just a symbolic act of defiance.
Regarding Spandam, the fool had a douriki one one less than a common Marine grunt; anyone could have beaten the snot out of him. Heck, Franky was doing a pretty good job with his jaws.
This is like Luffy getting his thirty million bounty for ruffing up Nezumi; sure, that's what promoted Nezumi to phone up the Marine HQ, but what legitimized the high bounty was Luffy's string of East Blue defeats.
The ONLY reason Sogeking got his bounty was from the mile-away snipe, which could easily be seen as a huge threat to the World Government. Call it what you will, Usopp's skill as a sniper is worth thirty million, not Usopp himself.
So yeah, Calipha was "just an assassin," while Spandam was a political figure, and that flag was a declaration of war. I mean, in this day and age it would take a lot of balls to burn a your nations flag in public.
That assassin was a super-human with a Devil Fruit, and one of the World Government's finest assets, an investment of years of time, energy, and money. Add that to Nami frying hordes of Marines and it's pretty obvious the WG underestimated her; I think the bounty fits, but it doesn't reflect how the WG sees her.
If the weights for the CP9 in calculating the bounties were low, that would imply most of Sanji's bounty is due to his victories on the Sea Train, and Franky for beating up Nero but not Fukuro.
Frankly, I'm surprised that even now, the WG is still failing to take the SH seriously; Zoro's bounty is low and Chopper/Sogeking/Nami are virtually joke bounties.
Also, Usopp did get development, just not cool development. He got the most freakin' development in the arc–for whatever that word means anymore.
Oh, he was developed alright, but he had to suffer character retardation before gettng said "development". It's basically like Oda starting over Usopp's development from Arabasta, with what he did in Skypiea being conveniently forgotten.
When I read a post like this I can't help but feel like you've constructed a whole alternate reality of how things happened based on collecting various opinions among your own, rather than looking at the actual story itself.
I'm not sure what you're getting at. From my point of view, Usopp, not unlike Keitaro Urashima, stumbled blindly around a government facility and got beat up, but instead of landing in the lap of a beautiful girl he got an average bounty.
How is that part of my "alternate reality"? I was expecting a fight out of Usopp and he didn't really get one; is that so hard to empathise with? This IS a fighting manga, afterall.
How is that part of my "alternate reality"? I was expecting a fight out of Usopp and he didn't really get one; is that so hard to empathise with? This IS a fighting manga, afterall.
True that. Although I don't think Cosmic gets this because as he said, he doesn't read any other manga except One Piece, so it's forgiveable.
We're in the "even Nami, the girl, got to kick ass…and Usopp had no fight at all" league.
Again, we're not asking for Usopp to have a glorious fight, but really...tell me, how do you weigh the "Usopp burning down the flag"/"Usopp sniping Spandam"/"Usopp instigating a lot of shit during the EL arc" against the major fights that the other crew have had against the CP9? Do you give equal weight to all their efforts? Please answer this as honest as you can.
Oh and I think the line:
When I read a post like this I can't help but feel like you've constructed a whole alternate reality of how things happened based on collecting various opinions among your own, rather than looking at the actual story itself.
Kinda meant that somehow, we're missing the point about WHY the stuff that happened to Usopp happened to Usopp.
True that. Although I don't think Cosmic gets this because as he said, he doesn't read any other manga except One Piece, so it's forgiveable.
She. Regarding the fight, Usopp's lack of a battle in this chapter was intended to be balanced out by "character focus" (note the language change), which occured.
As far as "development" goes, well, I can't really say. My impression of the development is contingent on how Usopp and Luffy make up; from what occured involving Usopp leaving the crew, Luffy made a childish and impulsive decision that Usopp responded with in a likewise spontaneous manner; high tensions drove both men to violence, which was an event that should not have occured under normal circumstances.
I'm not sure what you're getting at. From my point of view, Usopp, not unlike Keitaro Urashima, stumbled blindly around a government facility and got beat up, but instead of landing in the lap of a beautiful girl he got an average bounty.
Ummm Ok…
I was starting to type out my view on the thing, but I realize that it was turning into an essay, and I'm way too sleepy for that right now. >.< But I'll try, at least maybe you can understand my point of view better, whether you like/agree with it or not.
How is that part of my "alternate reality"? I was expecting a fight out of Usopp and he didn't really get one; is that so hard to empathise with? This IS a fighting manga, afterall.
Well, I guess we all see thing within our own reality. I wasn't expecting a fight but I did get most of what I expected. Expectations are personal matters. Your failed expectations versus my met expectations don't really prove whether what happened was right or not.
I already said I understand where you, fanservice, Aldrich, and the likes of you are coming from. However, I don't feel that you understand where I'm coming from, nor do you care or want to, and I don't see why it matters to you that I'd feel "sympathetic". It's a manga, not a death in the family.
Sure it IS fighting manga, but it's more than just fighting, and I think the events over the past several hundred chapters prove that it's not the end-all of character development in One Piece.
True that. Although I don't think Cosmic gets this because as he said, he doesn't read any other manga except One Piece, so it's forgiveable.
First of all I'm a she Maybe it's more forgiveable now?
I "get it" because I have been explained the fighting manga principles and I see how it works in One Piece, and Naruto, from the limited amount that I've seen, but one point I was trying to make is that it's equally fair to base judgement and expectations ONLY on having read One Piece. And it seems to me that if your expectations are more influenced by other manga and you're finding yourself confused and disappointed, maybe that's your problem.
Again, we're not asking for Usopp to have a glorious fight, but really…tell me, how do you weigh the "Usopp burning down the flag"/"Usopp sniping Spandam"/"Usopp instigating a lot of shit during the EL arc" against the major fights that the other crew have had against the CP9? Do you give equal weight to all their efforts? Please answer this as honest as you can.
If my measuring stick is "who had a more blood/sweat inducing, kickass fight", then obviously Usopp didn't get that. (Robin didn't do anything either though :/). But the thing is, I really don't care. I don't think that it was necessary in this arc. The issues that Usopp was having with himself in the beginning were directly addressed by those situations. If it was, Oda would have done it. I'm sure he was sitting in his office thinking "haha, I'm not going to give Usopp a fight like the other guys because I just don't want to have him progress ever, he's just a weak and useless guy, hoho". I'm willing to make a bet that he wants to save a more gritty and compelling moment for another time when it would make more sense in terms of his own strength and ability.
Because let's face it, he really wasn't strong enough to defeat Jyabura or Kaku.
Oh and I think the line:
Kinda meant that somehow, we're missing the point about WHY the stuff that happened to Usopp happened to Usopp.
Um…considering that I'm not sure what you mean, I don't know if that's right, but maybe it is. I need to get to bed. >.< I think I addressed that to Terek already. I just meant that when I read his comments, I just see a conglomeration of opinions that started spouting around chapter 412 and on, but it's not what I see when I actually read the manga.
Edit:
@Malintex_Terek:
She. Regarding the fight, Usopp's lack of a battle in this chapter was intended to be balanced out by "character focus" (note the language change), which occured.
Somewhat, though I don't agree with a change in terms, because you seem to be implying that there was no development.
As far as "development" goes, well, I can't really say. My impression of the development is contingent on how Usopp and Luffy make up; from what occured involving Usopp leaving the crew, Luffy made a childish and impulsive decision that Usopp responded with in a likewise spontaneous manner; high tensions drove both men to violence, which was an event that should not have occured under normal circumstances.
Well, I'm with you there.
She. Regarding the fight, Usopp's lack of a battle in this chapter was intended to be balanced out by "character focus" (note the language change), which occured.
Cosmic is a girl? LOL…it's rare to meet girl OP fans (at least in our area).
You'd have to forgive me...but here's how I look at the "build up" of Usopp in the EL arc.
1. He gains dials from SkyPiea
2. He upgrades Nami's climatact
3. He fights against Luffy utilizing his weapons like never before
4. He loses against Luffy and "leaves" the crew
5. He gets owned by the FF (albeit having the "character" developed by showing up and instigating the fight over the money)
6. Mission to rescue Robin commences.
7. Usopp unveils his new weapon
8. Everybody gets a fight save for Usopp. Everybody gets to display a new technique except Usopp
9. Usopp does something inspirational and finally accepts Merry's gone. (So, issue # 4 is resolved)
10. Usopp (recently) wants to go back to the crew (although as of this moment it's being done in a comical manner).
You see? It's but natural for me to expect a fight out of Usopp and not be satisfied with what happened regarding the EL arc because it seemed like he showed those new weapons for a moot point. Now, people may say something like "Hey, he can still showcase them during the next series of fights" but did other people stop and think why Usopp was not given the chance to do so in this arc? Luffy fought 2 CP9 guys. I can see why he needs to beat Lucci. I just don't see the point of him fighting Blueno too other than maybe Oda doesn't want to really give Usopp any opponent this time and he felt that Usopp's 'lovestory' with Luffy is suppossed to be more important than him getting a serious "upgrade".
@Malintex:
That assassin was a super-human with a Devil Fruit, and one of the World Government's finest assets, an investment of years of time, energy, and money. Add that to Nami frying hordes of Marines and it's pretty obvious the WG underestimated her; I think the bounty fits, but it doesn't reflect how the WG sees her.
If the weights for the CP9 in calculating the bounties were low, that would imply most of Sanji's bounty is due to his victories on the Sea Train, and Franky for beating up Nero but not Fukuro.
Frankly, I'm surprised that even now, the WG is still failing to take the SH seriously; Zoro's bounty is low and Chopper/Sogeking/Nami are virtually joke bounties.
If the WG did underestimate Nami, she won't be getting anything at all. She's getting what pirates like Kuro and Buggy were getting.
Actually I am glad her bounty isn't very high. A high bounty is not good for people like her. When one gets a high bounty, he/she attracts attention from bounty hunters. IMO Nami is still not ready to fend off a large gang of bounty hunters, and that's assuming that FF aren't the strongest bounty hunters in OP.
But I do get the feeling that Sogeking did not really earn his bounty the "legitimate" way. He did not show much prowess in combat area or possess anything dangerous to WG, like Robin did. I can imagine Jyabura looking at his wanted poster and thought that he could easily be 30 million beries richer if he's a bounty hunter.
As for your point about WG not taking SH seriously, that's what I think. The WG have seen greater pirates, like the 4 stars, etc. So the SH are still rookies relative to these people.
Usopp is a coward. He is weak, a bit annoying, a goofball and pretty much a dorky geek. Yet, he is my favorite character in One Piece. You're asking why? How could anyone possible like this pest?
The reason is because he is the Underdog.
One Piece has all these rich characters because they are sometimes goofy and all the main characters have their failures as in a post before was explained. I think the main reason why so many dislike Usopp is because he is mainly defined by his failures and the parts he plays in the crew are more subtile and hard to catch as he is not a regular shonen main character who's purpose is to beat anything that comes into his way.
He has done so many little things that the Strawhats wouldnt have been what they are now, like the flag, the grappling hook on Skypia or Namis weapon.
A point that I never see in Usopp discussion is that without him, Vivi, Zoro and Nami would have been doomed on Little Garden. For me this is actually the moment in the story where Usopps development realy started.
Usopp is the Underdog. Unlike other "underdog" characters like Naruto, where the reader knows that he is actually a badass and will just kick anything out of his way, Usopp still manages to surprise and show what he realy is made of when it counts, even when he knows that it will at most only delay the opponent. Usopp knows when he is obviously going to lose but he is not afraid of trying it anyway.
For the "pep talk" or how Fanservice is putting it, I don't believe it was Usopps intention just to cheer on Luffy. I actually think Usopp was going to sacrifice himself, only to give Luffy a little bit of rest and just keep Lucci from killing Luffy at least for a little while. However, Luffy didn't want to see a person he still considered a friend and comrade from being hurt in his place and that is why Luffy did get back on his feet.
Usopp is one of the most interesting characters in Shonen-Manga I've ever seen because he is such a multilayered person combining the comic relief with the true underdog feeling and the helpful drop-in.
Its his character, hes suppose to be able to swing between serious and comic relief. If you can't accept the character then just ignore any panels hes in and then see if One Piece makes sense. ^^
(…)
The whole fight against CP9 was basically something that said "well, look, here are the new attacks of each crew member!" and it affirms the fact that they got stronger, hence, there is development even just in that area. You take Usopp out of the fights, you're basically saying he can't fight opponents of those caliber. Add the introduction of "dourikis" (Obviously, a measuring stick used to emphasize how the crewmembers have grown), and we do the math that Usopp has not kicked any ass (not even Spandam's!) in this chapter...what are we suppossed to think? "Hurray, Usopp realized he's wrong and he shouldn't push himself too much! OMG CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT!"?
(...)
In the manga, the most evident "development" are with regard to fighting ability. It's a shonen manga, and we don't expect Luffy to become "emotionally mature" eventually. We expect him to kick ass and become Pirate King. Chapter after chapter, (at least, up until this point), the main highlight or the main conflicts are resolved in fights and we are being presented with "X vs. Y" scenarios which basically implies that if a character defeats or overcomes his opponent, he is one step closer to his goal. Oda has been doing fine before. Usopp fought in the Arlong ark. Also in the Alabasta arc. I would have been fine with THAT sort of Usopp because basically, yeah...he's scared. But he fights back. During the entire EL arc, I have NOT seen Usopp display that sort of bravery. Even during the times when he was being "brave", he got mocked (ie: Zoro saying "why does he have to sing?" before/after he sniped Spandam). He shot the WG flag. Big deal. He did so behind a mask and with the crew behind him, ready to save his ass if ever anyone interfered.
This, is the core of the problem IMO. I think what Oda tried to convey with that arc was that even if Usopp is not a classic shonen character he was still useful somehow to the crew, and that not being even remotely strong doesn't matter if you have friends to protect/avenge you.
I think he did it extremely poorly, but I can understand how, instead of doing the classic development of the underdog character, who has to overcome seemingly impossible tasks by using something else than brute force, he drove home this point: Usopp isn't at the same level than the others. He can only do the most minuscule and insignificant tasks, but he does it, and he tries hard. Apparently most of his fans like him for it, not for the potential grow he could make, which is the error I did, so it makes sense for Oda to strenghten that aspect of his character.
Now the only thing I hope is coherence; Usopp shouldn't do anything remarkable in the next arcs and should be kept away from any form of fighting, as they're now entering a part of the world where logically every potential opponent is far out of his league. If Oda's coherent Usopp should just snipe occasionally hiding behind the rest of the crew until the end of the series where he'd have reached a high enough sniping level to fight Van Auger.
Regarding Spandam, the fool had a douriki one one less than a common Marine grunt; anyone could have beaten the snot out of him. Heck, Franky was doing a pretty good job with his jaws.
Now, I think you missed somehting in my last post. In this case, it's not the fact Usopp's opponents were weak, it's that his targets were more high profile.
Yes, Spandam is weak, but that's not the point. He's the leader of the CP9, and as such a higher ranking government official. Like I said, you'd become more famous for shooting JFK then one of the bodyguards protecting him, even if those bodyguards are "stronger."
Bounties are in part measured by "threat." In the WG's eyes Sogeking is apparently the type of man willing to declare war on the government and shoot at political figures.
Hell, beating Spandam is probably why Franky has 30 million of his bounty. And before you ask, what about Robin? Well, her bounty was not relevant to her strength before.
Now the only thing I hope is coherence; Usopp shouldn't do anything remarkable in the next arcs and should be kept away from any form of fighting, as they're now entering a part of the world where logically every potential opponent is far out of his league. If Oda's coherent Usopp should just snipe occasionally hiding behind the rest of the crew until the end of the series where he'd have reached a high enough sniping level to fight Van Auger.
Now, that would only be true if none of the characters changed throughout the series, and it makes Usopp's fights against Mr.4 and Luffy suddenly "incoherent."
Also, I'm not getting how people are saying that Usopp "reverted" from his development in Alabasta…what was that development again? Usopp only got brave when his nakama got insulted, otherwise he was as cowardly as ever. He got little character development in Alabasta, he got a good fight.
Now, what did he do that was so cowardly in Enies Lobby?
Hide in a giants hair? Um...what idiot doesnt take cover in a battlefield? Plus, I really believe that the Sea Kings forget him, since Usopp can't jump up on a Sea King or anything.
Lose to Jyabura? That wasn't cowardly, that was....a loss. He was willing to fight him the entire time without fear, hell, he wasn't even thinking cowardly at the time of his beating.
Personally, I wasn't disappointed at all with Usopp's development during Water 7 and Enies Lobby. I think that's because I wasn't really expecting him to participate in a high level fight in the first place. Usopp's character, to me, has never really been about "kicking ass and taking names" like some of the other Strawhats. I had always hoped that he would develop his obvious strengths (like sniping and weapons invention) and use them to achieve his goal of becoming a "brave warrior of the sea." Since I think that his improvement in those areas, particularly sniping, has been recognized in the manga, I really don't have much to complain about.
…So yeah, what a couple of other people have said. It all boils down to expectations.
Now the only thing I hope is coherence; Usopp shouldn't do anything remarkable in the next arcs and should be kept away from any form of fighting, as they're now entering a part of the world where logically every potential opponent is far out of his league. If Oda's coherent Usopp should just snipe occasionally hiding behind the rest of the crew until the end of the series where he'd have reached a high enough sniping level to fight Van Auger.
I agree, mostly. I think we'll still see Usopp fighting various enemies even in the New World, but I don't think he'll ever shine in that area, at least not in close range battle. Marksmanship's where it's at.
Though I am curious…a lot of people seem to think that Usopp's likely return to the crew will cement or ruin whatever development he experienced since Water 7. I agree with this. I really think Usopp needs to genuinely admit his fault in the matter in order for this sub-plot to wrap up properly. (I also hope that Luffy resolves to be more responsible and captain-like in the future, since the fight was not entirely Usopp's fault. Character development on both sides would be good.) Any other opinions?
Kind of unrelated, but one of the things I'm looking forward to most in One Piece is an Ussop/Yasopp meeting at some point…that'd be awesome.
taboo,
Man, that's exactly why I'm upset about. Earlier in the arc, you have Usopp who confronts the FF for stealing their money. (IIRC). Then, in the actual fights against the CP9, he can't show even a bit of that resolve? I mean, come on…
I was responding to your comment
During the entire EL arc, I have NOT seen Usopp display that sort of bravery.
I'm a little disappointed (and maybe a little angry) about the his resolve too actually. There's not much I can do about it though, so I'm also weirdly content.
I'm a little disappointed (and maybe a little angry) about the his resolve too actually. There's not much I can do about it though, so I'm also weirdly content.
When did Usopp display less resolve then before? I think he was showing about the same resolve as even in Enies Lobby, he just got beat up. Like in the Jyabura fight, for some reason, he actually didn't even think of running away–which is weird for him now that I think of it.
He showed zero resolve against Jyabura. He had a slight hormonal boost after he got punched in the mug (which is the very least he could do) and then pathetically tried to weasel his way out of the fight.
I think Usopp is a lame character.
He needs to get his act together and do something. He needs to put his life on the line and show that he can be a brave warrior of the sea
Cosmic is a girl? LOL…it's rare to meet girl OP fans (at least in our area).
There's quite a few around here. More than half of the mods are female. XD
You see? It's but natural for me to expect a fight out of Usopp and not be satisfied with what happened regarding the EL arc because it seemed like he showed those new weapons for a moot point. Now, people may say something like "Hey, he can still showcase them during the next series of fights" but did other people stop and think why Usopp was not given the chance to do so in this arc?
Well that is a good question, but the answer that I come up with logically is that - he isn't strong enough to fight a member of CP9 and having him fight and win against someone suddenly so much stronger would be kind of stretching it and seem forced. Actually I thought a lot of the CP9 fights seemed forced and pointless and I just wanted them to get over with (I only liked Luffy's and Franky's). I never really got Sanji's sudden ability to spin and make his legs super hot. Considering that me had a comment about Kabuto that was cut off and never answered, it seems safe to assume that Oda has something in mind for later.
Now the only thing I hope is coherence; Usopp shouldn't do anything remarkable in the next arcs and should be kept away from any form of fighting, as they're now entering a part of the world where logically every potential opponent is far out of his league. If Oda's coherent Usopp should just snipe occasionally hiding behind the rest of the crew until the end of the series where he'd have reached a high enough sniping level to fight Van Auger.
If that is how it happens, as long as Oda can do it without diminishing his role in the story, then I'm fine with that. He never was presented as a fighting character in the story.
But, I don't think it HAS to be like that to be coherent. It could turn out that Usopp actually starts working harder, or at least smarter in ways that he can pull off fighting at close range, like Nami has (although I think her fighting development was really more like "OK gotta give the little girl something so the boys will like her".). I remember Buccaneer commented that Usopp didn't deserve to beat Jyabura because he hadn't worked for it.
And I agree. So if Oda at least works towards something so that it makes sense, then it's all good.
If u look at it in the way:
Usopp fighting skills not really developing… then yeah there is no character development....
If u look at real character development, heck, this arc was all about usopp developing. At the start of water 7 he LOST himself... when he got beaten so easily and lost his money, Usopp just couldn't look at his other companion's face. WHY? because he was ashamed of himself...
Now what was the only way by which he could (in his opinion) gain his nakama's confidence back?? re-take the money back, and in that he failed again. (morale below ground here)
Now luffy's fight vs Usopp, was not pointless.. it was a way for Usopp to show himself that he can fight. He was desperate, he was feeling worthless, and if he managed to fight Luffy he would prove to the others but most important to himself that he is worthy of being in the Strawhat's crew.
Now in Enies Lobby we see the Entrance of Sogeking, simply because usopp was still ashamed of his powers, he wasn't sure if Usopp will manage, he was still ashamed, that he'll loose again, and this time at least it will not be Usopp who will loose, but Sogeking.
Now u cannot expect Usopp to be super badass, because its his character. We all know Usopp, what he can do, and what he is like.
For you if he would have gone killed Jayubara, then we would have had character development... WRONG in this arc we saw Usopp regaining confidence back in his skills, and actually using his Sniping prowess... to my belief it is the first time we actually saw his sniping skills in battle and what usopp can really do at his potential. I belief that in the next Arc we will see Usopp developing technically... but most of all we will see him fight some good fights.
Its his self confidence which he gained this arc. Now the most important thing is to see if Usopp can fight w/o the mask of Sogeking, or if he still needs it to boost up his self esteem...
He showed zero resolve against Jyabura. He had a slight hormonal boost after he got punched in the mug (which is the very least he could do) and then pathetically tried to weasel his way out of the fight.
Ah, I forgot about that. On the other hand, it's not like Usopp attacking right there would make a big impact. Then again, he did try to throw seastone cuffs on them, but that just didn't work. Oh yeah, come to think of it, by throwing the cuffs wasn't he still technically in the fight? He was just thinking of letting Zoro take them both, yet his actions read a (albeit poor) attempt to help.
Okay, can anyone name a second time?
Its his self confidence which he gained this arc. Now the most important thing is to see if Usopp can fight w/o the mask of Sogeking, or if he still needs it to boost up his self esteem…
Dammit, you're probably right, this entire arc was a set up or challenge to Usopps dream, kind of like Mihawks owning of Zoro…except 100 weeks longer. Then again, Zoro's dream can only be accomplished by beating Mihawk, while being a "brave warrior" means a wide variety of challenges.
So, dozens of people who've been waiting for an Usopp fight were supposed to wait for the arc, huh? Well, the jokes on us!
....:getlost:
I'm too tired to respond to anything seriously right now, but this comment bears addressing.
If u look at real character development, heck, this arc was all about usopp developing. At the start of water 7 he LOST himself… when he got beaten so easily and lost his money, Usopp just couldn't look at his other companion's face. WHY? because he was ashamed of himself...
BINGO, you hit the bullseye. Usopp's whole mess in W7 was about him being too weak to accomplish anything, where he needed his friends to protect him and where he wasn't skilled enough to keep the Merry (and his friendship) together with the other Straw Hats.
Enies Lobby offered no resolution to these topics, and instead made them worse; I'm still holding out (sadly…) for SOME character development to come about from this focus, but depending on how Oda takes it we might not get any at all.
I'm bracing for the worst, as outlined by Aldrich; a rehash of how Usopp joined the crew back in the Kuro arc. Man, that would suck royally.
Enies Lobby offered no resolution to these topics, and instead made them worse; I'm still holding out (sadly…) for SOME character development to come about from this focus, but depending on how Oda takes it we might not get any at all.
Now I don't think that's how it is:
Usopp's weakness: Covered by the fight. It left Luffy more injured then all his East Blue fights at least–perhaps combined. Sure he lost, but it was a good show.
Usopp feeling useless: Covered in the Sniping scene, where he completely controlled the situation and showed his accuracy prowess.
Usopp and the Merry: I think that, perhaps, watching the Merry burn was a sign that he moved on.
I dunno, I've never been as mad at Usopp for his actions in Water 7. I mean, sure, Usopp got owned by the Franky Family, but Zoro got owned by a chimney. What's the big deal?
Usopp's weakness: Covered by the fight. It left Luffy more injured then all his East Blue fights at least–perhaps combined. Sure he lost, but it was a good show.
It doesn't matter how "strong" Usopp is in comparison to the East Blue villans, since two of them are broken men and one is virtually a rotting corpse. As a pirate on the future Pirate King's ship, it's pretty much implied Usopp be at least a Grand Line power; Bellamy might have been KOed by Luffy with one hit but that pretty much doesn't mean Usopp > Bellamy just because Usopp did a little better in the fight.
Luffy held back a little at first and thus got roughed up; Usopp also got lucky, and in that he still lost. So, what does that tell us?
1. Can't fight worth a darn.
2. Has no luck.
3. Isn't smart enough to design a plan to win out.
Usopp feeling useless: Covered in the Sniping scene, where he completely controlled the situation and showed his accuracy prowess.
Usopp was feeling useless because he couldn't fight to save his own arse, let alone his friends. The sniping scene doesn't invalidate that AT ALL, and in fact Sogeking v. Jyabura just makes it WORSE.
Basically put thus far, everyone else on the crew can say, "I saved Robin" (since this is true with the defeat of the CP9). All Usopp can say is, "I helped", and even then what he "saved" Robin from was a metaphor for defeat and not a physical one.
Usopp and the Merry: I think that, perhaps, watching the Merry burn was a sign that he moved on.
He still cried like a baby, which nullified his pretty awesome comment earlier in the chapter. Shedding a single manly tear or nothing at all would have made him a whole lot more admirable.
I dunno, I've never been as mad at Usopp for his actions in Water 7. I mean, sure, Usopp got owned by the Franky Family, but Zoro got owned by a chimney. What's the big deal?
I thought Usopp was great in W7, he just sucked arse in Enies Lobby after he fell off one of the King Bulls.
It doesn't matter how "strong" Usopp is in comparison to the East Blue villans, since two of them are broken men and one is virtually a rotting corpse. As a pirate on the future Pirate King's ship, it's pretty much implied Usopp be at least a Grand Line power; Bellamy might have been KOed by Luffy with one hit but that pretty much doesn't mean Usopp > Bellamy just because Usopp did a little better in the fight.
Luffy held back a little at first and thus got roughed up; Usopp also got lucky, and in that he still lost. So, what does that tell us?
1. Can't fight worth a darn.
2. Has no luck.
3. Isn't smart enough to design a plan to win out.
Now, while I can see how Luffy might have held back–before the Ketchup star--how did he "get lucky?" Getting lucky in the worst excuse in the world to say that someone didn't deserve credit for what he did, how was that big explosion or Usopp shooting Luffy's hand mid gatling luck?
Besides, you should have known that Luffy would win, so what do you expect? It's not just the results that matter here, a lot of people--even in the SH crew--couldn't take the damage that Usopp dished out.
Usopp was feeling useless because he couldn't fight to save his own arse, let alone his friends. The sniping scene doesn't invalidate that AT ALL, and in fact Sogeking v. Jyabura just makes it WORSE.
So what? He was useless in one area but exceled in another. And he felt useless cause he couldn't fight to protect the money, and be of help to hte crew. This hasn't been just something as selfish as "I'm not strong enough"–that's just a small part of the problem.
Usopp didn't want to let his friends down. In that sense, just trying to fight Jyabura is enough, after all, every hit he took was one that Nami didn't have too. You think he was joking when he offered to fight Lucci? No, if Luffy couldn't do it he at least would have tried--not that it wasn't suicide.
Basically put thus far, everyone else on the crew can say, "I saved Robin" (since this is true with the defeat of the CP9). All Usopp can say is, "I helped", and even then what he "saved" Robin from was a metaphor for defeat and not a physical one.
How does beating the hell out of Jyabura translate to "I saved Robin?" Each member of the crew was in a completely different area when beating one CP9, and each crewmember beating a CP9 was just a small step in a larger goal. They all "helped," in fact if you get right down to it–it was Franky that saved Robin.
He still cried like a baby, which nullified his pretty awesome comment earlier in the chapter. Shedding a single manly tear or nothing at all would have made him a whole lot more admirable.
Yeah, but everyone cried. Except Zoro and Sanji.
I thought Usopp was great in W7, he just sucked arse in Enies Lobby after he fell off one of the King Bulls.
Yeah, I can see that.
Besides, you should have known that Luffy would win…
Don't make assumptions about a manga when the manga-ka is insane. I'm sure you're one of those folks who was TOTALLY SURPRISED when Vivi didn't join the crew; I saw that as an obvious given, other people saw it as a shock.
Frankly, I didn't expect Usopp to fair well against Luffy, and I didn't think he faired well at all until I came to Arlong Park. However, that does not mean Luffy was entitled to a victory; see Foxy.
So what? He was useless in one area but exceled in another.
The "other area" DOES NOT MATTER. Usopp went angsty because he couldn't defend himself or his friends' interests, not because he couldn't snipe.
How does beating the hell out of Jyabura translate to "I saved Robin?" Each member of the crew was in a completely different area when beating one CP9, and each crewmember beating a CP9 was just a small step in a larger goal. They all "helped," in fact if you get right down to it–it was Franky that saved Robin.
If any of the CP9 won, they would have escaped to the Bridge of Hesitation and either captured/killed Robin. Leaving any of them conscious or in a position to get Robin was a bad idea, so any Straw Hat who defeated a CP9 "saved" Robin.
Usopp didn't do that; as I said earlier, he "saved" Robin from a metaphor. Quite impressive, since I wouldn't have believe he could save Robin from anything given how much of a wuss he was in EL.
Yeah, but everyone cried. Except Zoro and Sanji.
This comment made me laugh out loud. Seriously.
I'm sure you're one of those folks who was TOTALLY SURPRISED when Vivi didn't join the crew.
Nope, not at all.
Frankly, I didn't expect Usopp to fair well against Luffy, and I didn't think he faired well at all until I cam to Arlong Park.
You didn't think he faired well huh? Well…okay. I guess we saw two different things.
The "other area" DOES NOT MATTER. Usopp went angsty because he couldn't defend himself or his friends' interests, not because he couldn't snipe.
Sniping, however, did defend his friends and his interests. He sniped the people who were escorting Robin across the bridge. That's a big interest for the whole crew, worth more then 200 million berri.
If any of the CP9 won, they would have escaped to the Bridge of Hesitation and either captured/killed Robin. Leaving any of them conscious or in a position to get Robin was a bad idea, so any Straw Hat who defeated a CP9 "saved" Robin.
Usopp didn't do that; as I said earlier, he "saved" Robin from a metaphor. Quite impressive, since I wouldn't have believe he could save Robin from anything given how much of a wuss he was in EL.
Yeah, but with all the SHs fighting CP9, none of them could make it in time to literally save Robin. So, that's what Usopp did.
Unless you want to go into whether or not Franky could make it on time. I personally think that Robin could have been dragged across the gate first.
And what metaphor are you talking about? Going across the big of justice? It's a big 3000 ton (rough estimate) door, none of the SHs could get past that.
This comment made me laugh out loud. Seriously.
Hey, I'm just saying that Luffy cried too.
Now, if you just don't like Usopp, I'm fine with that. I just think you're reasons are a little biased. So, I guess it's kind of a catch 22 since what opinions aren't biased by emotion?
If you want to see Usopp fight some cool opponent, just wait until the next arc. Yeah, you heard me, based on no info whatsoever, I think that Usopp's going to get a fight in the next arc.
After all, Usopp already fought in this arc already, with Luffy. Even Sanji has just recently been "upgraded" to the level of fighter who can fight more then one opponent per arc, and Zoro reached that level in Skypiea. All the SHs have to seriously reach the limit of their stamina before getting stronger in this series. Sanji got his ass kicked throught Skypiea, yet look how strong he is in the Water 7 arc.
Sniping, however, did defend his friends and his interests. He sniped the people who were escorting Robin across the bridge. That's a big interest for the whole crew, worth more then 200 million berri.
The real question though, is does it erase the fact he can't fight for shit? He knew he could snipe when he got his ass kicked by the FF. He already used his sniping skills before to help the crew. So the whole downgrade of his character, to the point where he looks like shit compared to the likes of Nami and Chopper when it comes to one on one fights was to remind him of his role in the crew?
400 chapters after the other crewmembers, who use their particular skills on a daily basis AND are able to kick some ass to various degrees he finally figures what he's supposed to do, while at the same time being completely worthless in fighting, and some here are trying to say he's as important as the rest of the crew? Ha.
Unless you want to go into whether or not Franky could make it on time. I personally think that Robin could have been dragged across the gate first.
Well, that's the most important part, don't you think? Of course Franky could have saved Robin alone. He was seconds from reaching Spanda, and even if they boarded the ship Franky could have made it in time using either his swimming skills or a coup de vent (hell, he made Going Merry fly with one of these, so I suppose he can make his body travel from long enough distances to reach the ship)
If you want to see Usopp fight some cool opponent, just wait until the next arc. Yeah, you heard me, based on no info whatsoever, I think that Usopp's going to get a fight in the next arc.
And it'd make no sense. It'd actually make the whole Enies Lobby fiasco seems all the more needless. He can't fight, he's the sniper, he can only be useful when standing God knows how many miles away from weak opponents. That's what we learned, right?
After all, Usopp already fought in this arc already, with Luffy. Even Sanji has just recently been "upgraded" to the level of fighter who can fight more then one opponent per arc, and Zoro reached that level in Skypiea. All the SHs have to seriously reach the limit of their stamina before getting stronger in this series. Sanji got his ass kicked throught Skypiea, yet look how strong he is in the Water 7 arc.
Now you're just being ridiculous. No other characters went through the kind of pathetic beatings Usopp suffered during this arc. Your comparison with Sanji is hilarious. He got his ass kicked by a Luffy caliber opponent, which is absolutely normal, while Usopp isn't even able to handle opponents of his level anymore. Stop trying to make it look like Usopp's situation is perfectly normal. There's a clear break between him and the other members of the crew that has been made during this arc.
The real question though, is does it erase the fact he can't fight for shit? He knew he could snipe when he got his ass kicked by the FF. He already used his sniping skills before to help the crew. So the whole downgrade of his character, to the point where he looks like shit compared to the likes of Nami and Chopper when it comes to one on one fights was to remind him of his role in the crew?
400 chapters after the other crewmembers, who use their particular skills on a daily basis AND are able to kick some ass to various degrees he finally figures what he's supposed to do, while at the same time being completely worthless in fighting, and some here are trying to say he's as important as the rest of the crew? Ha.
Well, if you look at it like that, then all we need is Luffy. Either they're all important or none of them are.
Well, that's the most important part, don't you think? Of course Franky could have saved Robin alone. He was seconds from reaching Spanda, and even if they boarded the ship Franky could have made it in time using either his swimming skills or a coup de vent (hell, he made Going Merry fly with one of these, so I suppose he can make his body travel from long enough distances to reach the ship)
Wouldn't shooting at the marines risk killing Robin? Franky's long range attacks run too great a risk I think, so he'd have to punch them out of the way. Now, while Franky could do this, it'd still slow him down considerably.
And it'd make no sense. It'd actually make the whole Enies Lobby fiasco seems all the more needless. He can't fight, he's the sniper, he can only be useful when standing God knows how many miles away from weak opponents. That's what we learned, right?
Not quite, we just know that he has that kind of range. It that were true, he couldn't have beaten even Chuu–he just needs some distance. And sniping is fighting--sniping is pretty much a method of delivering violence from a distance.
And I think the point is that he doesn't need to do the exact same stuff that the rest of the crew does to make a difference, not that he can't.
He tried that with the Franky Family and failed, but if he had his wits on him he would have beaten them all, save Franky. The Mr. 4 fight and his fight with Luffy showed that he could fight.
Now you're just being ridiculous. No other characters went through the kind of pathetic beatings Usopp suffered during this arc. Your comparison with Sanji is hilarious. He got his ass kicked by a Luffy caliber opponent, which is absolutely normal, while Usopp isn't even able to handle opponents of his level anymore. Stop trying to make it look like Usopp's situation is perfectly normal. There's a clear break between him and the other members of the crew that has been made during this arc.
Now, while didn't state that as well as a wanted to, my point is this.
Alabasta:
Luffy fights Croc several times and nearly dies.
Zoro fights Mr. 1 and nearly dies.
The rest recieve tough fights.
All the Shs fight to reach the bomb and then fight rebellion soldiers.
Skypiea:
Luffy fights Wiper, then Enel.
Zoro fights Braham, then Ohm.
Sanji doesn't get a one on one fight, and gets zapped to hell by Enel–ulitmately more then anyone else. (even Usopp)
Water 7:
Luffy fights Franky, Bleuno, and Lucci
Zoro fights T-bone and Kaku
Sanji fights Wanze and Jyabura
The rest get one on one fights; Usopp just fights Luffy.
Franky fights Nero and Fukurou.
All the SHs fight captains afterwards.
What I'm saying is, I think there's a pattern here. For whatever reason, since Alabasta the stronger Shs have been getting more fights in the major arcs. So I think that, by this logic, Usopp couldn't have gotten another fight--he already fought Luffy.
It's just a theory of mine though.
But to say that Usopp can beat no one in a fight is ridiculous. In One Piece we've seen many strong fights who aren't physically strong, but rather living puzzles that each fighter has to break. Usopp could beat someone stronger then Jyabura in the future, if his fighting style is a match for it. And don't complain about that, it's the same for all the SHs.
… There's zero pattern. Franky fought two opponents, and if we go by CP9 doriki rankings he's not part of the "stronger SHs". Plus Sanji in Skypiea still knocked the shit out of someone and actually didn't get zapped worse than Usopp, Usopp got the shit kicked out of him by Enel while he wasn't even using his powers which is even more humiliating.
… There's zero pattern. Franky fought two opponents, and if we go by CP9 doriki rankings he's not part of the "stronger SHs". Plus Sanji in Skypiea still knocked the shit out of someone and actually didn't get zapped worse than Usopp, Usopp got the shit kicked out of him by Enel while he wasn't even using his powers which is even more humiliating.
Well, I think that Franky is one of the "stronger SHs"–he's stronger then Chopper, Nami, and Usopp right? And don't go by douriki ratings, Franky got the one CP9 who just happened to specialize in speed--coincidence? Each opponent the Shs face is tailor made for them, it doesn't mean much vs. other characters who fight completely differently.
And yeah, Sanji knocked out Satori--but c'mon, Luffy held him down! Surely you hold Sanji by a higher standard then that, any of the SHs could beat Satori under those circumstances. Sanji got treatment almost equivalent to Usopp in the Water 7 arc and he's doing just fine now, in fact he's doing great. That's the thing, one arc of suckiness isn't damning.
And lastly, Enel has mantra, so he's still a good fighter. Don't forget that he wasn't fighing Luffy with his lightning either, not that he had a choice, but he still stayed more then even with Luffy before--at least for awhile.
You didn't think he faired well huh? Well…okay. I guess we saw two different things.
I don't see things in "at least he managed to…" terms, since all that really matters in the world is winning or losing. Feeling good after losing just eases the pain of losing a little bit.
Sniping, however, did defend his friends and his interests. He sniped the people who were escorting Robin across the bridge. That's a big interest for the whole crew, worth more then 200 million berri.
Possessing the skills to fight does not mean one can make use of it. Ener and Bellamy are prime examples; both had Devil Fruits and could make use of them, but they couldn't apply their fruits in a way to overcome Luffy.
Just because Usopp can snipe doesn't mean it's a practical skill. I mean, here are the bonuses that favour snipers:
1. They're "invisible" in the sense that they're far away.
2. Their weapons pack ENORMUS firepower.
3. Their projectiles are difficult to evade.
Van Auger is INCREDIBLY DANGEROUS since he meets all of those criteria; Usopp prior to Kabuto didn't even meet ONE of those criteria, which means he isn't a good sniper. At that, Kabuto and point #1 in general are highly unconventional and require tactics to implement properly; if there's anything Usopp has shown us, it's that he's deficient in brainpower regarding common sense.
Oda gave Usopp and Sanji equivalent rankings for intelligence, but there's a clear difference in where that intelligence lies; Sanji's the more common sense kind of opportunist, relying on subterfuge, psychology, and his own charisma to accomplish impressive stuff. Usopp is an inventor with knowledge of different types of craft that he applies to his fights; One Piece has taught us that technology generally isn't very affective against Devil Fruits and insane shounen powers, so that implies Usopp's "intelligence" is rather useless.
With technique and a little strength, Sanji was able to decisively overcome Jyabura, who was an immensely more powerful opponent than he was and had a huge advantage in battle. With Kabuto, Usopp didn't really do anything except snipe Spandam & his goons, which was more of a product of circumstance and luck more than anything else.
Yeah, but with all the SHs fighting CP9, none of them could make it in time to literally save Robin. So, that's what Usopp did.
Uh, Franky was virtually right on top of Spandam, so even if Usopp didn't do anything Robin would have been safe.
Unless you want to go into whether or not Franky could make it on time. I personally think that Robin could have been dragged across the gate first.
And what metaphor are you talking about? Going across the big of justice? It's a big 3000 ton (rough estimate) door, none of the SHs could get past that.
1. It's not like the gate was going to close immediately after Spandam passed through it.
2. Even if it did close, Franky could have blown it up. Luffy did the same with that Iron Door using Gear 3, and Franky clearly had recharged after his bout with Fukuro since he was able to use a Coup de Vent to help the Merry escape from Buster Call. If you remember, a full power Coup de Vent annihilated Dock #1 of Water 7; I'm sure Franky could have saved her.
Hey, I'm just saying that Luffy cried too.
The statement made me laugh because you said "everyone, but…" which is an oxymoron, or at least a peculiar juxtaposition.
Now, if you just don't like Usopp, I'm fine with that. I just think you're reasons are a little biased. So, I guess it's kind of a catch 22 since what opinions aren't biased by emotion?
???
If you want to see Usopp fight some cool opponent, just wait until the next arc. Yeah, you heard me, based on no info whatsoever, I think that Usopp's going to get a fight in the next arc.
It depends on what Oda does with rectifying Luffy and Usopp's relationship. I personally think Usopp will claim to want to leave for Ebalf and that he'll meet Luffy up there as a stronger man (which is apologetic) while he asks Sogeking to join the Straw Hats in his absence.
That sort of scenario is very Usopp; he looks for a moment like he's doing something very admirable/manly and yet goes around and acts like a coward/loser again.
Frankly, I'd rather Usopp just leave for Ebalf and Franky stay out of commission for the next arc, thus allowing Zoro, Luffy, Nami and Robin have more screentime. They've done their part this arc.
After all, Usopp already fought in this arc already, with Luffy. Even Sanji has just recently been "upgraded" to the level of fighter who can fight more then one opponent per arc, and Zoro reached that level in Skypiea. All the SHs have to seriously reach the limit of their stamina before getting stronger in this series. Sanji got his ass kicked throught Skypiea, yet look how strong he is in the Water 7 arc.
It's a common misconception to believe that Sanji is strong, or at least in the range of Zoro. He's definately a superhuman but is no where near the monstrous level Luffy and Zoro are at, which is why Sanji was once my favourite character in all of OP.
He didn't beat Jyabura on a pure-strength basis; Sanji used a fusion of brains, technique, and strength to earn victory. All but one of Sanji's connecting kicks hit Jyabura in the face, and his "Devil's Leg" technique probably wasn't much more powerful than Concasse, but it had a heat element that Jyabura didn't take into account that weakened his defense. And finally, Sanji lulled Jyabs into allowing him to get some cheap shots by pretending to believe Jyabs' fibs.
…
Hmm! Now that I think about it, if Croc is like an alternate-universe disillusioned future version of Luffy, is Jyabs an alternate-universe disillusioned future version of Usopp? Note the simmilarities:
1. Both have long snouts.
2. Both are liars.
3. Both are in a hopeless one-sided rivalry with a more prominent contemporary.
4. Both have "pets".
5. Both love to boast.
6. Both got beaten up in pretty lame circumstances.
… There's zero pattern. Franky fought two opponents, and if we go by CP9 doriki rankings he's not part of the "stronger SHs". Plus Sanji in Skypiea still knocked the shit out of someone and actually didn't get zapped worse than Usopp, Usopp got the shit kicked out of him by Enel while he wasn't even using his powers which is even more humiliating.
Sorry to get into the intense arguments, but how did Sanji get zapped less worse than Usopp?
The whole argument of Usopp sucking goes back to Oda's point. He's not a shipwright but did a job of one. He had less time to snipe even though he's really good at it. The rest have time to do whatever, except Sanji, but c'mon, he was raised by a pirate. How couldn't he be strong?
Just to clarify comparisons to various SHs.
Nami, Usopp must seem completely useless since he always gets hit and Nami never does. However, Nami nevr gets hit because either the enemy doesn't consider her a threat at all, 2. somebody comes to save her, or 3. she uses her magic climatact.
Chopper must seem totally great too since he's really brave and has a super uber monster form, totally unlike Usopp who couldn't fight at all. But wait! the only reason he won was because of the monster form. Sure, some could say that he did deal SOME damage to Kumadori and Usopp didnt do anything, but Usopp did fight someone with a higher dorskhi.really bad spelling
Franky. Fun! He totally could've saved Robin all by himself, and Usopp definitely didn't help at all. That could be true, but what else was Usopp gonna do? This arc can't be helped with Usopp because he can't fight like Franky, Sanji, Zoro, or Luffy. Franky really looked cool this arc though to show off his skillz. Wasn't Chopper and Sanji's skills showed off a lot when they were introduced? That doesn't mean he's a super strong fighter, but Oda is showing him off as the Supa star he is.
Sanji. Man, Sanji is the bestest best ever! He is a BAMF, while Usopp's a SOB. Sanji looks cool even if he really doesn't do anything! Well, he is more behind the scenes than Usopp is, and he can still kick major k'nass. Sanji gets him a lot, more so probably than everybody on the ship. They're really a lot alike, just with different styles of fighting and Sanji had a mentor. Usopp was raised by himself and grew up a childish snob, while Sanji grew up as a chivilrous fighter.
Usopp can't fight at all, and all Oda could really do in this situation during Usopp's time of doubt and weakness is to make him weak and pathetic. This arc was another arc of shame, but at the end, he'll get more girls than Sanji! Seriously, he probably could, who wouldn't want that nose?
Possessing the skills to fight does not mean one can make use of it. Ener and Bellamy are prime examples; both had Devil Fruits and could make use of them, but they couldn't apply their fruits in a way to overcome Luffy.
Just because Usopp can snipe doesn't mean it's a practical skill. I mean, here are the bonuses that favour snipers:
1. They're "invisible" in the sense that they're far away.
2. Their weapons pack ENORMUS firepower.
3. Their projectiles are difficult to evade.Van Auger is INCREDIBLY DANGEROUS since he meets all of those criteria; Usopp prior to Kabuto didn't even meet ONE of those criteria, which means he isn't a good sniper. At that, Kabuto and point #1 in general are highly unconventional and require tactics to implement properly; if there's anything Usopp has shown us, it's that he's deficient in brainpower regarding common sense.
Oda gave Usopp and Sanji equivalent rankings for intelligence, but there's a clear difference in where that intelligence lies; Sanji's the more common sense kind of opportunist, relying on subterfuge, psychology, and his own charisma to accomplish impressive stuff. Usopp is an inventor with knowledge of different types of craft that he applies to his fights; One Piece has taught us that technology generally isn't very affective against Devil Fruits and insane shounen powers, so that implies Usopp's "intelligence" is rather useless.
With technique and a little strength, Sanji was able to decisively overcome Jyabura, who was an immensely more powerful opponent than he was and had a huge advantage in battle. With Kabuto, Usopp didn't really do anything except snipe Spandam & his goons, which was more of a product of circumstance and luck more than anything else.
Chuu's fight although showed much cowardice, proved Usopp can use his brain just as well as Sanji. The circumstances in this arc was doubt. When he fought Chuu, he used wine and flammability to beat him. And even though that seems cheap and wasn't a REAL victory, its basically like Sanji's fight in the water. He couldn't have won if he didn't get out just like Usopp wouldn't have won without the trick.
It's a common misconception to believe that Sanji is strong, or at least in the range of Zoro. He's definately a superhuman but is no where near the monstrous level Luffy and Zoro are at, which is why Sanji was once my favourite character in all of OP.
He didn't beat Jyabura on a pure-strength basis; Sanji used a fusion of brains, technique, and strength to earn victory. All but one of Sanji's connecting kicks hit Jyabura in the face, and his "Devil's Leg" technique probably wasn't much more powerful than Concasse, but it had a heat element that Jyabura didn't take into account that weakened his defense. And finally, Sanji lulled Jyabs into allowing him to get some cheap shots by pretending to believe Jyabs' fibs.
…
.
First off, saying that Sanji's Devil Leg isn't as strong as Concasse is like saying that Zoro's Asura isn't as strong as 36 pound cannon or Jet Pistol isn't that much stronger than pistol. It makes light of the whole technique itself. Second, this example shows another similarity between Usopp and Sanji. Sanji wants to be like Zoro and Luffy, while Usopp just wants to fight like the rest of the crew. Also shows how Sanji and Usopp uses deception to fight.
I don't see things in "at least he managed to…" terms, since all that really matters in the world is winning or losing. Feeling good after losing just eases the pain of losing a little bit.
So, only Usopp beating Luffy was enough? Damn, that sucks, no one on the crew can beat Luffy except maybe Zoro, and even then it's unlikely.
The point of the fight is that, despite losing, it showed us Usopp's offensive power. Look at it all, big explosions, shuriken, shrapnel bombs, and blindly powder (pepper, hey it worked). What I saw is that, if Usopp fought like that a little more he'd mess people up.
Possessing the skills to fight does not mean one can make use of it. Ener and Bellamy are prime examples; both had Devil Fruits and could make use of them, but they couldn't apply their fruits in a way to overcome Luffy.
Well, yeah…but it also means that they can make use of it...why couldn't they? All Usopp needs is new ammo and he could be a different level of fighter.
Just because Usopp can snipe doesn't mean it's a practical skill. I mean, here are the bonuses that favour snipers:
1. They're "invisible" in the sense that they're far away.
2. Their weapons pack ENORMUS firepower.
3. Their projectiles are difficult to evade.Van Auger is INCREDIBLY DANGEROUS since he meets all of those criteria; Usopp prior to Kabuto didn't even meet ONE of those criteria, which means he isn't a good sniper. At that, Kabuto and point #1 in general are highly unconventional and require tactics to implement properly; if there's anything Usopp has shown us, it's that he's deficient in brainpower regarding common sense.
Usopp has done those things before. His projectiles has always been difficult to evade, so scratch that. Enormous firepower? Well, he has that cactus star and fire bird star.
As for the ability to become invisible…he's working on that. He did that with Chuu by using his "Usopp Rubberband"--stupid but it gave him the edge to win. All Usopp needs is some new tools to make distance between him and his opponent. Do you remember that flash dial he had? That'd blind people. And his tone dials come be useful to make decoys.
And no, Usopp's not a great sniper right now, what I'm saying is that he has the tools to reach that level. There's no reason to think that Usopp still could be a great "fighter" one day--he's just gotten a taste of the worlds power in this arc. He's growing.
Oda gave Usopp and Sanji equivalent rankings for intelligence, but there's a clear difference in where that intelligence lies; Sanji's the more common sense kind of opportunist, relying on subterfuge, psychology, and his own charisma to accomplish impressive stuff. Usopp is an inventor with knowledge of different types of craft that he applies to his fights; One Piece has taught us that technology generally isn't very affective against Devil Fruits and insane shounen powers, so that implies Usopp's "intelligence" is rather useless.
Eh, Usopp has a little less brainpower then he should, true. Still, it doesn't mean he can't learn–I'd like to think that his experiences in Enies Lobby could smarten him up.
With technique and a little strength, Sanji was able to decisively overcome Jyabura, who was an immensely more powerful opponent than he was and had a huge advantage in battle. With Kabuto, Usopp didn't really do anything except snipe Spandam & his goons, which was more of a product of circumstance and luck more than anything else.
Please, you're downplaying strength way more then you should. Sanji has a hell of a lot of leg strength.
And Usopp crawled on that tower on purpose, he provided himself with that great circumstance. And don't exaggerate the importantace of circumstance either, it's circumstance that Calipha beat Sanji.
Uh, Franky was virtually right on top of Spandam, so even if Usopp didn't do anything Robin would have been safe.
He wasn't even close until Usopp started shooting at them. I think without that interruption Franky wouldn't have gotten as close as he did.
1. It's not like the gate was going to close immediately after Spandam passed through it.
Maybe, but would Franky still make it in time? It wouldn't take lost to walk past it.
2. Even if it did close, Franky could have blown it up. Luffy did the same with that Iron Door using Gear 3, and Franky clearly had recharged after his bout with Fukuro since he was able to use a Coup de Vent to help the Merry escape from Buster Call. If you remember, a full power Coup de Vent annihilated Dock #1 of Water 7; I'm sure Franky could have saved her.
**** no. That iron door was way smaller then the gate of justice, and not nearly as thick. At this point, that Gate is too big to be destroyed. Besides, there plenty of marine headquarters support behind that Gate–the SHs would have to fight all that and the BC at the same time, and would probably fail.
The statement made me laugh because you said "everyone, but…" which is an oxymoron, or at least a peculiar juxtaposition.
Okay, "everyone except" is what I meant. Whatever.
???
Yeah, this was a weak attempt to make a truce, I don't mind that you hate Usopp, but posting these flawed reasons bugs me. I'd do the same for every Strawhat and everyone on the planet. Oh well, that still doesn't make much sense…
That sort of scenario is very Usopp; he looks for a moment like he's doing something very admirable/manly and yet goes around and acts like a coward/loser again.
I don't see why he couldn't rise to the occasion instead. Everytime he acted cowardly was in a less then critical situation…it didn't hurt Robin that Usopp hid behind a door after Kaku fell through the roof.
Frankly, I'd rather Usopp just leave for Ebalf and Franky stay out of commission for the next arc, thus allowing Zoro, Luffy, Nami and Robin have more screentime. They've done their part this arc.
Well, okay, but why do Luffy and Zoro need more screetime? Hell, I could stand less of them, they're the guys who "always get their fight."
For Usopp, I could do with him just getting the same amount of screentime he did in Alabasta.
It's a common misconception to believe that Sanji is strong, or at least in the range of Zoro. He's definately a superhuman but is no where near the monstrous level Luffy and Zoro are at, which is why Sanji was once my favourite character in all of OP.
Strong in One Piece isn't all about physical strength. Physically, Usopp could take Sanji in a boxing match (note:no legs), but what matters is that his fighting style is on par with them. Sanji would probably do better against Luffy then we think, but not beat him.
@ultimateclima:
Chuu's fight although showed much cowardice, proved Usopp can use his brain just as well as Sanji. The circumstances in this arc was doubt. When he fought Chuu, he used wine and flammability to beat him. And even though that seems cheap and wasn't a REAL victory, its basically like Sanji's fight in the water. He couldn't have won if he didn't get out just like Usopp wouldn't have won without the trick.
I call BS. How does the trick make any difference in this fight? That's how he fights and it's just as real a victory as anything. It's like disqulaifying Croc for using a hook or Luffy for using a mirror fragment, but do you think they'd care?
@ultimateclima:
Chuu's fight although showed much cowardice, proved Usopp can use his brain just as well as Sanji. The circumstances in this arc was doubt. When he fought Chuu, he used wine and flammability to beat him. And even though that seems cheap and wasn't a REAL victory, its basically like Sanji's fight in the water. He couldn't have won if he didn't get out just like Usopp wouldn't have won without the trick.
That's chemistry, which falls within Usopp's range of "intelligence", not the sort of "why don't I close the Gate of Jusitce" brand of common sense Sanji employs. A better example would Usopp lying to Mr.5 to trick him into eating a Tabasco Star, which is (quite frankly) the only instance of non-technical intelligence I've seen Usopp use in the entire series, and at that it's directly related to a character trait of his, not a general tendancy.
@ultimateclima:
First off, saying that Sanji's Devil Leg isn't as strong as Concasse is like saying that Zoro's Asura isn't as strong as 36 pound cannon or Jet Pistol isn't that much stronger than pistol. It makes light of the whole technique itself.
I never said Devil's Leg was weaker than Concasse, I said it wasn't much more powerful. Additionally, Zoro's pound cannons ARE stronger than Asura; making that sort of analogy is like comparing Luffy's Gatling to his normal Pistol attacks, in that it's not a stronger attack but a higher frequency of attack. Zoro's Asura emulated a situation in which he had nine swords slashing all at once, but that doesn't mean each individual slash was more powerful than his normal Onigiri; remember that Kaku was almost always on the offensive and he dodged most of Zoro's attacks, avoiding blocking whenever possible. Kaku didn't even use Tekkai after his Amedachi, which was his downfall, since it hasn't been determined yet of Asura can cut through steel; I doubt it can.
@ultimateclima:
Second, this example shows another similarity between Usopp and Sanji. Sanji wants to be like Zoro and Luffy, while Usopp just wants to fight like the rest of the crew. Also shows how Sanji and Usopp uses deception to fight.
No…Sanji's a chef who knows his place, but has an imaginary rivalry with Zoro because he doesn't want to think himself as strictly a cook and not a pirate.
Luffy and Usopp basically have the same dream (with Luffy being a bit more forthwright with it), they had simmilar backgrounds, they have simmilar builds and both have famous fathers; they're also naturally silly, curious, and overeager. Usopp is more like a brother to Usopp than Ace.
The main difference between Usopp and Luffy is that Luffy had Shanks to give him the Devil Fruit, which put him in a world Usopp has yet to step into. It's this calibur distinction that's been so frustrating for Usopp; even Nami, a weakling like himself, has entered the world of "monsters" with her Clima Tact, which was invented by Usopp, yet Usopp himself can't enter that world yet.
Okay, you're right, the trick doesn't make a difference. Usopp still has some brain though, he can be crafty, he just needs to apply his craftiness. He runs away with the rubberband to get distance. The flash dial sounds like a good idea though. Usopp's fight always have craftiness and thrill to it. His style includes that.
He wasn't even close until Usopp started shooting at them. I think without that interruption Franky wouldn't have gotten as close as he did.
Maybe, but would Franky still make it in time? It wouldn't take lost to walk past it.
**** no. That iron door was way smaller then the gate of justice, and not nearly as thick. At this point, that Gate is too big to be destroyed. Besides, there plenty of marine headquarters support behind that Gate–the SHs would have to fight all that and the BC at the same time, and would probably fail.
Why can't you accept that Franky probably could;ve handled the situation himself? He was perfectly strong enough to take on the marines and Spandam, and Franky didn't really do anything but watch when Usopp was sniping. Its like that crowd of Naruto during the Zabuza arc. Franky let him come and look important, and then actually did all the work. Exaggerating but the point gets across.
I don't see why he couldn't rise to the occasion instead. Everytime he acted cowardly was in a less then critical situation…it didn't hurt Robin that Usopp hid behind a door after Kaku fell through the roof.
Even if it wasn't critical, thats one of the main problems of Usopp, his cowardice. Its just a part of him. It's not good or bad, until he starts just standing there feeling sorry for himself. He hasn't done it yet but if he does…
Well, okay, but why do Luffy and Zoro need more screetime? Hell, I could stand less of them, they're the guys who "always get their fight."
Well, Zoro can get more development as a character, while Usopp can get more development as a fighter. Let them swap roles for a bit, like having no swordsman during an ark so Zoro doesn't have to fight.
Strong in One Piece isn't all about physical strength. Physically, Usopp could take Sanji in a boxing match (note:no legs), but what matters is that his fighting style is on par with them. Sanji would probably do better against Luffy then we think, but not beat him.
That's really pushing it. Sanji may not use his arms, but they have to be really strong to be able to hold himself up like that for his kicks, unlike Usopp's arms which only hold a slingshot.
Sanji probably would do better though, for now.
I never said Devil's Leg was weaker than Concasse, I said it wasn't much more powerful. Additionally, Zoro's pound cannons ARE stronger than Asura; making that sort of analogy is like comparing Luffy's Gatling to his normal Pistol attacks, in that it's not a stronger attack but a higher frequency of attack. Zoro's Asura emulated a situation in which he had nine swords slashing all at once, but that doesn't mean each individual slash was more powerful than his normal Onigiri; remember that Kaku was almost always on the offensive and he dodged most of Zoro's attacks, avoiding blocking whenever possible. Kaku didn't even use Tekkai after his Amedachi, which was his downfall, since it hasn't been determined yet of Asura can cut through steel; I doubt it can.
Zoro's argument makes sense, but Luffy's Gattling is definitely stronger. A punch a less stronger punches are probably stronger than one super ultra punch. The technique should'nt be called just another technique, but a gear like Luffy's. Sure it took effort, but the fire didn't really wear him out. It was the fact that he was getting hit and he slowly started kicking ass.
Theory being thrown out there, but i always though luffy's gattling was learned when he was hypnotised because he became really really stronger.
No…Sanji's a chef who knows his place, but has an imaginary rivalry with Zoro because he doesn't want to think himself as strictly a cook and not a pirate.
Luffy and Usopp basically have the same dream (with Luffy being a bit more forthwright with it), they had simmilar backgrounds, they have simmilar builds and both have famous fathers; they're also naturally silly, curious, and overeager. Usopp is more like a brother to Luffy than Ace.
The main difference between Usopp and Luffy is that Luffy had Shanks to give him the Devil Fruit, which put him in a world Usopp has yet to step into. It's this calibur distinction that's been so frustrating for Usopp; even Nami, a weakling like himself, has entered the world of "monsters" with her Clima Tact, which was invented by Usopp, yet Usopp himself can't enter that world yet.
Well, Sanji and Usopp are really close too. Sanji probably didn't really think of himself as a monster, but gains monsterlike abilities. He probably didn't even think of his strength because he was always under Zeff. Sanji understands what it's like to be undermined and watches over him, making him realize his potential like a brother relationship. Usopp must really look up to him as a human that can do extraordinary things.
Usopp and Luffy are more like best friends, closer thaan his brother, but their closeness and similarities makes there connect. Also, Luffy was probably really strong because of Garp's training. Without the fruit, he'd be more like Zoro and Sanji really strong figher. Usopp probably would've still been in the same situation as before. A person that wants to be like his friends.
Sanji realizes that, and that's why he hit Luffy, his captain. He knows how usopp will react and kept his cool, like an older sibling, while Luffy didn't see it like that.
OK, ATTENTION EVERYONE. Can we get stuff organized here? I mean, it's my thread…you know? :D I dunno how Sanji or Zoro got into the discussion.
I'd like to "re-start" the discussion and settle this "debate" by assuming/presenting several key-points. We, the "Usopp-sucks" team, will present an argument and you guys "pro-Usopp doesn't suck" team, try to prove that we're wrong. (Aldrich/Terek and other Usopp-haters, feel free to contribute. Once we get a list of what to discuss, then we can have the "pro-Usopp guys" debunk them.
OK, I'll start:
1. Usopp was virtually useless in the Enies Lobby arc - Provide instances where Usopp was "truly needed" during the CP9 fiasco.
So far, we have the following "useful" stuff that was done by Usopp:
a) Instigated some fights in EL
b) Burned down the flag
c) Sniped Spandam to "save' Robin
2. Usopp's skills shined in his fight against Luffy. He was built up as someone who could probably fight from a distance and with much resolve. But Oda let us down because we never got to see Usopp kick ass in the EL arc.
This post:
The point of the fight is that, despite losing, it showed us Usopp's offensive power. Look at it all, big explosions, shuriken, shrapnel bombs, and blindly powder (pepper, hey it worked). What I saw is that, if Usopp fought like that a little more he'd mess people up.
Well, yeah…but it also means that they can make use of it...why couldn't they? All Usopp needs is new ammo and he could be a different level of fighter.
Usopp has done those things before. His projectiles has always been difficult to evade, so scratch that. Enormous firepower? Well, he has that cactus star and fire bird star.
As for the ability to become invisible...he's working on that. He did that with Chuu by using his "Usopp Rubberband"--stupid but it gave him the edge to win. All Usopp needs is some new tools to make distance between him and his opponent. Do you remember that flash dial he had? That'd blind people. And his tone dials come be useful to make decoys.
And no, Usopp's not a great sniper right now, what I'm saying is that he has the tools to reach that level. There's no reason to think that Usopp still could be a great "fighter" one day--he's just gotten a taste of the worlds power in this arc. He's growing.
Perfectly sums up point # 2. Onemoment realized that, yes…it was presented to us that Usopp has a fighting style. Now, what I'm wondering is WHY that wasn't shown against any of the CP9 guys. Not even ONE BIT. Now, can anyone please explain to us why Oda probably thought that he should save Usopp's new skill for another chapter instead of doing it in this chapter?
Possible excuses:
a) Oda will do it in the next arc(s) because he wants to. (Or Oda is saving something grand for Usopp later on)
b) Usopp can't fight ANY of the CP9 members because he is not in their league.
c) Usopp did not need to fight anyone in this arc because what he had was internal conflict.
Now, let me address the REASON why I think answers A and C to point #2 are, well....invalid, in my opinion.
For answer #2A, We're not asking whether Usopp will be a brave warrior of the sea in the end. We know it's his goal. Eventually, Usopp will get a grand fight somewhere down the line. KEEP THE TIMELINE IN EL. Provide us reasons why he shouldn't fight in the EL arc if he was able to fight in other arcs. We're not asking for an uber-cool fight. Just a practical application of what Usopp did against Luffy against any CP9er will do. But Oda chose not to show it in this arc. Now, I know you guys aren't Oda, but that's the point. We're looking for a plausible reason why Oda can't show at least a bit of a fight in Usopp other than, well…"he just wants Usopp NOT to fight in this chapter."
Trust me, if Usopp showed a bit of a fight, the whole "I want to be a brave sea warrior" theme will not get old. Did it get old when he beat Chu or Mr 4? Matter of fact is, he has WON several fights before and he has confronted his opponents in a better manner before. Why turn uber-pussy against Jyabs again?
For answer #2C....if his conflict was internal (ie: I feel useless in this crew)...how was it resolved? What was the point of him "feeling useless" in the crew? It wasn't because he can't snipe. The main thing was, he felt that he wasn't doing enough in the team. Now. Does the event in the EL lobby justify that he was doing his whole best or ENOUGH for the team? That's the question we have to answer. Because if we come up with the conclusion that he wasn't, then Oda has failed to resolve this chapter with regard to Usopp.
The criteria for judging whether Usopp has done enough for the team is simple. Just ask yourself...what is his REAL and PERCIEVED(how he thinks of himself) position in the crew? How does he feel about it?
See? The whole thing that Terek and Aldrich and me are pointing about is that, the chapter seemed to us as some sort of a "Hey Usopp, we still want you in the crew even if you have little worth to us." Prove it wrong and GIVE MORE WEIGHT to what Usopp has done in the entire EL arc (EL arc only. Don't discuss Alabasta, Skypiea or upcoming arcs because THAT'S WHAT MAKES THE DISCUSSION MESSY. He was able to fight and stand up a bit in the former arcs and we're perturbed why he can't show the same against the CP9 guys in this arc). If you do that, then we shut up.
*note: Caps and bold letters are only done to present emphasis to themes, not to shout at anyone. :D
http://groups.msn.com/onepiecemangav-2/chapter414mhq.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=8326
what did ussopp understood at that time? If he understood the art of rukishiki will he be able to use it??? How can he improve this way?
Uh, no, what Usopp understood was that he was a sniper, so he went and did some snipin', that's all.
Uh, no, what Usopp understood was that he was a sniper, so he went and did some snipin', that's all.
There is only one major premise with this "resolution".
-Usopp does not recognize himself as THE crew's sniper.
So, tell me, are you implying that this is the resolution or at least, one of the resolutions to his identity crisis? Don't you think he's very dumb not to recognize himself as the sniper of the group? Or rather, don't you feel it's kinda "unfulfilling" that after all that he's been through, he's just realizing his potential as a sniper up until now?
I ask this question in general, to you guys, not to Cosmic alone. Do you honestly feel satisfied that after 400+ issues, Usopp just realized that his role is to be the sniper? Because to me, it's not.
[opinion] I call it stupid, retarded character development, hence why I got irritated and bored with the character after W7 arc. He can keep a combination of scared/comic/kickass character EVEN when fighting as shown in previous arcs, but in that particular arc, he has this emo crisis that had us thinking like "WTF Usopp? In Arabasta and in Arlong saga, you know you weren't an excess package. You actually WANTED to be strong to be worthy to be part of the crew. What's with the backtrack of characterization in the EL arc?" And then, some guys think it's actually worth the 400+ chapters of trouble that Oda put him through?
Keep in mind, even if he did not win any CP9 fights, just trying to fight with his new weapons and getting his arse kicked would have been enough and would have shown a bit more maturity IMO. We're not asking for him to win, but to show some growth. We saw none or very little in the EL arc. [/opinion]
Sorry for 'double-posting' but, IMO, this post has merit of his own.
In that particular pic/chapter that ero_seinen posted, one point that Oda (speaking through Sanji) was driving at was basically:
"NO, USOPP. YOU CAN'T FIGHT FOR SHIT AGAINST THESE GUYS/JYABURA. LEAVE THIS GUYS TO US AND GO DO SOMETHING YOU CAN ACTUALLY DO."
I can't, or I don't think anyone can interpret this in ANY OTHER WAY. So, this begs the question:
Why can't Usopp fight Jyabs?
Well…why can't he?
He's not strong enough, right?
No. We actually don't know. For all we know, Oda can manage to do something or make something work for Usopp. He just does not want to at this point in time. Croc vs. Luffy is suppossed to be heavily in favor of Croc because Luffy can't hit Croc for shit. But he showed us that Luffy was able to find a way to damage Croc. This means, that if Oda wanted, Usopp can beat Jyabs IF HE GAVE THAT CHARACTERIZATION to Usopp.
What I'm basically saying is, part of the reason why I'm lamenting is because I thought Usopp would break the old shonen formula that comic/coward characters are just that. Side-characters.
When he gave us Usopp/Luffy, we were amped. When Usopp got his ass kicked by the FF, we were amped. Because we saw a side of Usopp we never saw before. We thought "whoever will stand in Usopp's way will probably experience hell". We thought "for once, Oda really delivers and is doing progress with the whole underdog theme, unlike other authors out there."
We didn't get it and we're basically crying "sell out" to Oda for following the old formule (Luffy-Zoro-Sanji-next level-next level etc...) and we're just wondering why you guys feel ok with it (not that it's wrong or anything).
We're frustrated with the character development, but we're not bawling over it. We're more like "Er...there's valid reason to cringe at Oda for doing this to Usopp in the EL arc....other than that, the manga is pretty ok". That's all. It's retarded charcter development, and we're just wondering why you don't see it that way when the proof is glaring, at least, in this arc.
You guys may tell us "Well, Oda made it that way, get over it." We will, eventually. But at least, acknowledge the fact that Oda made it that way for Usopp and there was no actual pay-off for Usopp in this arc (or if there was, it wasn't worth it). That's all, actually. Just acknowledge that Oda messed up with Usopp in this particular arc, because I honestly can't find a way to "interpret" what happened to Usopp in the EL arc as "good" character development. It's not a question of "did he get stronger or beat someone or looked badass what?" It's more of a "was it good for the character of Usopp or was it for the worse or did he remain the same?" thing.
In that particular pic/chapter that ero_seinen posted, one point that Oda (speaking through Sanji) was driving at was basically:
"NO, USOPP. YOU CAN'T FIGHT FOR SHIT AGAINST THESE GUYS/JYABURA. LEAVE THIS GUYS TO US AND GO DO SOMETHING YOU CAN ACTUALLY DO."
I can't, or I don't think anyone can interpret this in ANY OTHER WAY. So, this begs the question:
Why can't Usopp fight Jyabs?
Well…why can't he?
He's not strong enough, right?
Sniper + martial artist + tiny ass room = ?
Sorry for 'double-posting' but, IMO, this post has merit of his own.
In that particular pic/chapter that ero_seinen posted, one point that Oda (speaking through Sanji) was driving at was basically:
"NO, USOPP. YOU CAN'T FIGHT FOR SHIT AGAINST THESE GUYS/JYABURA. LEAVE THIS GUYS TO US AND GO DO SOMETHING YOU CAN ACTUALLY DO."
I can't, or I don't think anyone can interpret this in ANY OTHER WAY. So, this begs the question:
Why can't Usopp fight Jyabs?
Well…why can't he?
He's not strong enough, right?
No. We actually don't know. For all we know, Oda can manage to do something or make something work for Usopp. He just does not want to at this point in time. Croc vs. Luffy is suppossed to be heavily in favor of Croc because Luffy can't hit Croc for shit. But he showed us that Luffy was able to find a way to damage Croc. This means, that if Oda wanted, Usopp can beat Jyabs IF HE GAVE THAT CHARACTERIZATION to Usopp.
What I'm basically saying is, part of the reason why I'm lamenting is because I thought Usopp would break the old shonen formula that comic/coward characters are just that. Side-characters.
When he gave us Usopp/Luffy, we were amped. When Usopp got his ass kicked by the FF, we were amped. Because we saw a side of Usopp we never saw before. We thought "whoever will stand in Usopp's way will probably experience hell". We thought "for once, Oda really delivers and is doing progress with the whole underdog theme, unlike other authors out there."
We didn't get it and we're basically crying "sell out" to Oda for following the old formule (Luffy-Zoro-Sanji-next level-next level etc...) and we're just wondering why you guys feel ok with it (not that it's wrong or anything).
We're frustrated with the character development, but we're not bawling over it. We're more like "Er...there's valid reason to cringe at Oda for doing this to Usopp in the EL arc....other than that, the manga is pretty ok". That's all. It's retarded charcter development, and we're just wondering why you don't see it that way when the proof is glaring, at least, in this arc.
You guys may tell us "Well, Oda made it that way, get over it." We will, eventually. But at least, acknowledge the fact that Oda made it that way for Usopp and there was no actual pay-off for Usopp in this arc (or if there was, it wasn't worth it). That's all, actually. Just acknowledge that Oda messed up with Usopp in this particular arc, because I honestly can't find a way to "interpret" what happened to Usopp in the EL arc as "good" character development. It's not a question of "did he get stronger or beat someone or looked badass what?" It's more of a "was it good for the character of Usopp or was it for the worse or did he remain the same?" thing.
Okay, a good example is you have a final exam worth 25% of your grade. However, two nights ago you realized your boyfriend/girlfriend dumped you and now you think she's eyeing your friends. That's what Usopp went through this arc. He had a situation, but was in a slump, and since Usopp has never shown any real situation where he got over that slump he had to suck. When he realized his potential as a sniper, all the CP9 were defeated.
The Luffy fight was an exception. He had time to prepare and time to focus. With the CP9 he tried to fight like his other fights and that's where he realized he can't fight like that anymore. He has shown that for now he can't be 20 yards near his opponent without some preparation.
"NO, USOPP. YOU CAN'T FIGHT FOR SHIT AGAINST THESE GUYS/JYABURA. LEAVE THIS GUYS TO US AND GO DO SOMETHING YOU CAN ACTUALLY DO."
I can't, or I don't think anyone can interpret this in ANY OTHER WAY. So, this begs the question:
Why can't Usopp fight Jyabs?
Well…why can't he?
He's not strong enough, right?
No, that's not quite it. Maybe Usopp couldn't beat Jyabs, but that's because Sanji was a better opponent for him.
It's like Mr.2 in Alabasta, and the supposed "2 second fight." And yet, Usopp with Chopper went on to fight the Mr.4 pair with success. In every SH mission each member of the crew does everything they can do win, just Sanji absorbed Enel's attack for Nami and Usopp back in Skypiea.
And don't just take that as "Jyab is too strong for Usopp," cause have you ever noticed how each SH gets matched against certain opponents? Like Calipha vs. Nami, Calipha had a strength draining technique, while Nami was the SH fighter who least depended on strength. What would Luffy and Franky do against this kind of opponent–they rely on strength! Unless they hit her hard before she resorts to bubbles, they're screwed--and Calipha showed us she can take more then one attack in her last fight.
And let's not forget, how many of the CP9 met with SHs who they had the advantage against, at first. Calipha vs. Sanji, Kumadori vs. Nami, and Jyabura vs. Usopp, all failures until they switched roles. Meanwhile, Chopper failed to find the keys without Nami's help, Franky couldn't beat Lucci, and Luffy couldn't find Lucci without the help of those kids. In fact, Zoro seems to be the only self reliant guy here...
But as for Usopps fight, I dunno. Maybe Oda couldn't think of a good way to use Usopp's fighting style against the CP9. Or maybe Oda morale for the story would have been destroyed if it didn't go this way, after all, beating opponents is something that every SH can do and in fact even Usopp has done in the past. The sniping scene is something unique to Usopp, some thing like many of the SHs attempts before him in Enies Lobby, only Usopp could succeed in.
As cheap as this sounds, Usopp will probably simply find opponents that "match" him in the future. For example, crews in the New World will probably have some snipers, just as every crew so far just happens to have a swordsman. I mean, Red hair and Blackbeard have snipers. Seriously, isn't it a huge coincidence that every crew we've seen so far has a swordsman and martial artist? Hell, we'll probably see more boxers if Franky joins.
The Luffy fight was an exception. He had time to prepare and time to focus. With the CP9 he tried to fight like his other fights and that's where he realized he can't fight like that anymore. He has shown that for now he can't be 20 yards near his opponent without some preparation.
Truely. Let's not forget too that all the SHs aside from Sanji and Usopp saw all the roushiki techniques in the mansion before–they were all prepared. All those two saw were Blueno's techniques: Shigan, tekkai, ryankaku, and air door. It was Jyabura's soru that took out Usopp, while Sanji's fighting style is fast enough to neglect soru. Actually, if you look at the Jyabura vs. Sanji fight again, it's when Jyabura uses geppou or soru that's when Jyab's gets a surprise attack on Sanji.