Chapter 428 "Let's Return" Discussion
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So when people say the BS did this and that, they aree not talking only about the ships.I believe you mean the BC, not the Bullshit ;)
Avatar provided by Ferntree on DeviantArt.
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@yokaiforte:
I believe you mean the BC, not the Bullshit ;)
**Are you denying the power of Bullshit? :blink:
You should embrace it.**
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@Octogon:
**The name "Buster Call" does not refer soley to the ships. tThe ships are only a part of the BS. The other part is the people, the many marines that help eradicate the target. So when people say the BS did this and that, they aree not talking only about the ships.
And you havn't awnsered my question.**
Well yeah, the marines are a part of it, but the ships are what people really see. C'mon, when the people in Ohara were running for their life, who the hell paid attention to the marines manning the cannons?
And for Garp…no, not one could--save maybe Franky. But he's also not here, and these 5 VAs are not like Garp, from what we've seen.
But then again, he's also outside my arguement, he's not these 5 VAs. These five VAs are minor...no "medium" characters--they have no name. That's what ultimately makes anyone weak in a shounen manga.
The Buster has the credit for destroying Ohara. We only see one VA from that BC, and that's current Grand Admiral Aokiji. And Saul, assuming he was not replaced. But I think it's not a good idea to compare them to Saul since these 5 VAs are...not giants.
What we're forgeting here is that the VAs are not critical characters to the plot. The CP9 took Robin, Admiral Aokoiji started this. The captains are fodder so far. The VAs, are leading the Buster Call, and that's where I think they are going to stay.
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There's a difference between formidable and super powerful.
I doubt the VA's are any stronger than say Kaku or Jyabura. They are definately strong, and definately above the captain flunkies that are being sent out, but I also think they are a fair bit below Lucci.
I think that's a more than fair estimate.
This CP9 was supposed to be the strongest version of CP9 ever in history, and Lucci was spoken of in hushed tones. I seriously doubt the VA's individually compare to him, it's just the power at thier fingertips in the form of the Buster Call far exceeds anything any individual opponent can display, Lucci included.
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There's a difference between formidable and super powerful.
I doubt the VA's are any stronger than say Kaku or Jyabura. They are definately strong, and definately above the captain flunkies that are being sent out, but I also think they are a fair bit below Lucci.
I think that's a more than fair estimate.
For the record, I agree this estimate, if my arguments haven't been clear in that area.
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Well yeah, the marines are a part of it, but the ships are what people really see. C'mon, when the people in Ohara were running for their life, who the hell paid attention to the marines manning the cannons.
**Does that change the fact that the marines are part of the Buster Call?
And I'm pretty sure people see the 5 VAs and go. "Shit….."**
And for Garp…no, not one could. But he's also not here, and taking damage liek they isn't always a great show of strength anyway, Zoro or Luffy would hurt him a hell of a lot more anyway.
**Exactly.
And don't kid yourself, Morgan aimed to kill Garp. Yet he shrugged it of. Keep in mind that he was asleep, which means he was caught completley off-guard and his muscles were relaxed.**
But then again, he's also outside my arguement, he's not these 5 VAs. These five VAs are minor characters. That's what ultimately makes anyone weak in a shounen manga.
He is a VA, is he not?
The Buster has the credit for destroying Ohara. We only see one VA from that BC, and that's current Grand Admiral Aokiji. And Saul, assuming he was not replaced. But I think it's not a good idea to compare them to Saul since these 5 VAs are…not giants.
Why can't we compare these guys to Saul? Saul and these 5 were chosen for the BC. And how does them not being giants make en umcomparable to Saul?
What we're forgeting here is that the VAs are not critical characters to the plot. The CP9 took Robin, Admiral Aokoiji started this. The captains are fodder so far. The VAs, are leading the Buster Call, and that's where I think they are going to stay.
How does this change a thing? Their rank should be enough.
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ohh such a lovely ending…gives me one of those tingly feelings. :wub:
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There's a difference between formidable and super powerful.
I doubt the VA's are any stronger than say Kaku or Jyabura. They are definately strong, and definately above the captain flunkies that are being sent out, but I also think they are a fair bit below Lucci.
I think that's a more than fair estimate.
This CP9 was supposed to be the strongest version of CP9 ever in history, and Lucci was spoken of in hushed tones. I seriously doubt the VA's individually compare to him, it's just the power at thier fingertips in the form of the Buster Call far exceeds anything any individual opponent can display, Lucci included.
I'd say VAs are more powerful than CP9 members, as it'd make sense for guys who're first and foremost fighters, roaming the Grandline day after day fighting high level pirates to be more powerful than spies who can spend 5 years undercover living an average life, and who're mainly used for political assassinations.
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> How does this change a thing? Their rank should be enough.
Ya, but the rank doesn't tell us anything other than somewhere between Ako-iji and above the captains that are getting wiped out by the handfull.
Honestly, I think the VA's have about the same spread as CP9 in level. There are probably some that are around Blueno, Fukuro, etc. and there's probably some that are around Kaku or Jyabura. And there's the amazingly exceptional one or two (not these, cause they aren't important enough to the long term) that have the potential to go on to be admirals.
I'd say VAs are more powerful than CP9 members, as it'd make sense for guys who're first and foremost fighters, roaming the Grandline day after day fighting high level pirates to be more powerful than spies who can spend 5 years undercover living an average life, and who're mainly used for political assassinations.
Doubtful really - Yes they are strong, but this CP9 generation was the strongest generation of CP9 ever. Not just Lucci was exceptional here, the group as a whole was revered, and Lucci was just spoken of in hushed tones. I think you take CP9 too lightly, they were top tier martial artists who honed thier bodies to perfection, they didn't just sit around drinking tea and generally slacking around.
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I'd say at the very least, the VA's = Lucci in terms of relative strength. We've no idea if they have Devil Fruits or not; chances are good that at least one or two of the five have one, and if this is the case, it's a good chance they'll have an upper level Paramecia or a Logia at their disposal, since I doubt that in a hierarchy based both on strength, intelligence and competence, a Zoan or lower-bound Paramecia would rise to the ranks of VA's.
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@Octogon:
**Does that change the fact that the marines are part of the Buster Call?
And I'm pretty sure people see the 5 VAs and go. "Shit….."**
They saw the ships….
**He is a VA, is he not?
And do you think all the VAs are going to be like Garp? Is Crocodile the weakest Shivchibukai or not? It's not a clear comparison.
One yeah, and there's that not VA who just shot some guy. That was a good time to show a super strength move if there was going to be any.
Why can't we compare these guys to Saul? Saul and these 5 were chosen for the BC. And how does them not being giants make en umcomparable to Saul?
For one, I doubt these guys could lift those ships. If they had equal strength to Saul at their size, then they'd be "Stronger" then wouldn't they?
Plus, Saul is a little more then just a VA, he's a D and the hero is Robin life, along the lines of Hiruluk, Bellemere, and Shanks. He's not the VA standard, cause he's not a standard character.
It's just a bad comparsion. For them to be stronger then then Saul, then these VAs would need some sort of developed fighting style, and it's too late in the arc for that.
How does this change a thing? Their rank should be enough.
I don't think rank is enough. Luffy beat guys with a higher bounty then him long before he got a new bounty. All the SH villians have tried to "push" their ranks on the SHS while fighting them so far.
"I'm the strongest pirate! or "I'm a superior race!" or "I'm a shichibukai!" or "I'm a God!" or "I'm a King!" are all good examples.
Defying rank has been a little theme this series has had.**
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Just to change the subject, what do you think is going to be Merry's fate?
Here is my assumption:
Merry is going to die fairly soon.
Now, how will this happen? It'd be crazy for merry to make it all the way back and have to be abandoned at w7 again. So, will Merry sacrifice herself to the bustercall to let the strawhats escape?
Whether or not aqua laguna shows up, I have a feeling one of the chapters coming up is going to end with the going merry sinking with (what looks like) all hands on board after a bustercall cannon barrage.
What other ways could merry go?
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Doubtful really - Yes they are strong, but this CP9 generation was the strongest generation of CP9 ever. Not just Lucci was exceptional here, the group as a whole was revered, and Lucci was just spoken of in hushed tones.
Where did you get that? I only remember Scarface saying Lucci was CP9 most powerful member in history, nothing about the others. Lucci is a particular case, for the others honestly I doubt the CP9 would make any of the higher ups of the One Piece world loose sleep.
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I'd say at the very least, the VA's = Lucci in terms of relative strength. We've no idea if they have Devil Fruits or not; chances are good that at least one or two of the five have one, and if this is the case, it's a good chance they'll have an upper level Paramecia or a Logia at their disposal, since I doubt that in a hierarchy based both on strength, intelligence and competence, a Zoan or lower-bound Paramecia would rise to the ranks of VA's.
Honestly, I think the VA's are getting way too much hype for a few stern expressions and a few lines. Bellamy thought he was badass too and he kept a cocky face on with the best of them.
They are a tier, not a single level. CP9's own internal tier varied incredibly. The VA's would so the same. Even the pirate gods vary all over creation. There may be Vice Admirals that are weaker than Blueno, and there may be this up and coming Vice Admiral that is gunning for Ako-iji's job.
Lucci is a particular case, for the others honestly I doubt the CP9 would make any of the higher ups of the One Piece world loose sleep.
See, that's the thing though. The VA's are not the higher ups of the One Piece world in terms of power. Lucci is a rare exception among the CP9, he's a legendary figure. There may be such figures among the VA's as well, but that's all. Not every VA, just a select few, and definately they'd be characters worth giving a name to.
The Pirate Gods, the Admirals, Shanks, Whitebeard, and other great pirates, people like Lucci who have formed legends around thier name, those are the strongest people in OP.
Saying the VA's are all Lucci level is like saying all of CP9 is all Lucci level. Your assigning a flat level to what is likely a tiered group. I'd say the VA's probably have roughly the same distribution as CP9, with some members being weaker and some being stronger, and only a very small and select few having the potential to go on to be admiral material.
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This was awesome, people that are complaining about the Going Merry coming back being a cop-out on Oda's part honestly are retarded.
Yea it's unlikely, but one piece is the manga that proves nothing is impossible, and I guess unexpected things like the going merry coming back reminds us of that fact.
I personally can't see the SH's on another ship.
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Me personally, I'm cool with the Merry coming back, I just want a decent explanation for it coming back (journey to Enies Lobby no less). I'll wait to next chapter before I worry because it'll most likely be explained.
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Saying the VA's are all Lucci level is like saying all of CP9 is all Lucci level. Your assigning a flat level to what is likely a tiered group. I'd say the VA's probably have roughly the same distribution as CP9, with some members being weaker and some being stronger, and only a very small and select few having the potential to go on to be admiral material.
That's where we differ, I think just to reach the rank of Vice Admiral you must have an already higher level than anything the CP9 can propose, bar Lucci. Then, there may be strongest VAs who're close from Admiral level, but even the weakest VAs are already toughest combattants than most.
Of course there's no way to know one way or another, it's just opinionative stuff so I'll leave it at that.
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That's where we differ, I think just to reach the rank of Vice Admiral you must have an already higher level than anything the CP9 can propose, bar Lucci. Then, there may be strongest VAs who're close from Admiral level, but even the weakest VAs are already toughest combattants than most.
Of course there's no way to know one way or another, it's just opinionative stuff so I'll leave it at that.
Wait, weren't the CP9 taken from birth to be trained in these arts? I don't think these ranks are really related to each other…probably two separate branches.
VA is clearly a rank reached though the marines...I assume.
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That's where we differ, I think just to reach the rank of Vice Admiral you must have an already higher level than anything the CP9 can propose, bar Lucci. Then, there may be strongest VAs who're close from Admiral level, but even the weakest VAs are already toughest combattants than most.
I dont think the marines would have been so awe-struck with Lucci if they were at his level or even close.
Usually that type of respect is only reserved for someone that's way above you.
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The only ones who were awe struck by Lucci were the common grunts, the VAs always looked calm, collected and quite indifferent during the whole fiasco.
Last post on the subject I swear. No really.
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It is okay Aldrich. That's better than some spaz
"WTF Merry's back! Oda is super retarded, this sucks, i can't wait for the next chapter." -
Lucci appears to have a reputation which is surprising considering he is part of a group that doesn't officially exist and that hasn't seen major action (at least Lucci hasn't) in five years. I would expect soldiers stationed for long terms at Enes Lobby to know since CP9 has apparently always protected the judicial island, but these Buster Call troops shouldn't know at all.
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@Sundal:
I dont think the marines would have been so awe-struck with Lucci if they were at his level or even close.
Usually that type of respect is only reserved for someone that's way above you.
Were they in awe? It seemed to me they were just explaining that Lucci was tougher than Luffy.
It would be like Zoro telling someone Usopp beat Chu. Zoro can take tougher opponents, but doing in Chuu was DAMN impressive all the same. So if Usopp is fighting a regular marine, it shows that it should be no contest.
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Saying the VA's are all Lucci level is like saying all of CP9 is all Lucci level. Your assigning a flat level to what is likely a tiered group.
Your logic sucks. There's absolutely no evidence pointing to a wide distribution between VA power. At that, CP9's distribution was pretty was pretty normal with only Califa (a woman) and Lucci (a beast) as the outliers.
Saul was as "strong" as Aokiji, but he was killed fairly easily. Why? Aokiji's Devil Fruit is a "different kind of strong". Luffy is "stronger" than Smoker, but that doesn't mean he would win in a fight. Crocodile or Ener could probably (and easily) kill Mihawk outright; does that make him weak?
If even one VA had a Logia, that VA would be superior to Lucci.
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You're logic sucks. There's absolutely no evidence pointing to a wide distribution between VA power. At that, CP9's distribution was pretty was pretty normal with only Califa (a woman) and Lucci (a beast) as the outliers.
Saul was as "strong" as Aokiji, but he was killed fairly easily. Why? Aokiji's Devil Fruit is a "different kind of strong". Luffy is "stronger" than Smoker, but that doesn't mean he would win in a fight. Crocodile or Ener could probably (and easily) kill Mihawk outright; does that make him weak?
If even one VA had a Logia, that VA would be superior to Lucci.
I'm not disagreeing with you main point, but damn your examples are terrible. I seriously doubt corc or enel could beat Mihawk. and we have no idea how strong smoker is physiccaly.
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@Sundal:
I dont think the marines would have been so awe-struck with Lucci if they were at his level or even close.
Usually that type of respect is only reserved for someone that's way above you.
i consider it to be respect for Lucci and he's mission it doesn't need to do whit strenght.
I believe that the VAs must be around or highter than the cp9 in strenght, they might not get a fight here, but they could come back in another arc. who knows.
for the time being there's no sign of any VA being weak, so im staying whit this believe till Oda say otherwise
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@Octogon:
I'm not disagreeing with you main point, but damn your examples are terrible. I seriously doubt corc or enel could beat Mihawk. and we have no idea how strong smoker is physiccaly.
Dude, Mihawk has a giant sword. It's made of metal. Like a lightning rod. He'd get fried almost instantly, and there's no way he could outrace Ener either.
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@hunterstalker:
i consider it to be respect for Lucci and he's mission it doesn't need to do whit strenght.
You shameless traitor! You have to defend lucci against that heretics in honor of your avatar!!!!11^^
btw, olivia could kick those VA's asses without even trying ;-)
Yibis One Piece Fansubs
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Dude, Mihawk has a giant sword. It's made of metal. Like a lightning rod. He'd get fried almost instantly,
My ass he would. Only 'cause Enel has a fruit with so much potiental, doesn't mean he can beat up one of the strongest in the world. Then there's, "Mihawk can cut elements" thing as well.
and there's no way he could outrace Ener either.
I find this highly unlikley.
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Was Mihawk cutting logias officially stated? I always just assumed he could because I can kinda predict that Mihawk knows how to cut elements but don't know if there's an official statement.
Brawl FC: 3823 8204 8139
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Thanks Oto, Now I officially state, Mihawk can beat Enel.
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Only that sword of his is has Sea Stone somewhere in it, I don't see what he can really do (though I've never heard of this "cutting elements" thing o_ O ).
EDIT:
Cutting elements doesn't exactly mean he beat a Logia. Logia-users have gotten smashed, cut, stabbed, and blown apart all the time, and they typically just shrug it off and get to killing. :|
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@Octogon:
It's stated in one of the OP databooks that Mihawk can 'Cut the elements'
that crazy bastard
Yibis One Piece Fansubs
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@Octogon:
My ass he would. Only 'cause Enel has a fruit with so much potiental, doesn't mean he can beat up one of the strongest in the world. Then there's, "Mihawk can cut elements" thing as well.
Ener could kill Croc or Mihawk, who are Shichibukai, but he would lose to Aokiji just as easily as he could kill the former two. Strength is relative, which is why I cannot understand why people say, "Lucci was the strongest villan in the series" when Ener's immense power is many times greater.
Not to discount Oda, but saying someone can "cut the elements" sounds a lot like "cutting nothing". Think about it; if "nothing" is "something", cutting nothing means cutting something. On the other hand, if nothing is "the absence of something", cutting nothing means just that. This is a philosophical "pun" of sorts.
Believing that Mihawk can "cut the elements" when common sense says he can't outside of using some cheap voodoo magic is just like believing in superstition, or something about religion (like how Moses crossed the "Red" sea instead of the correct "Reed" sea) even when there's mounds of scientific (which means verifiable) evidence to discredit the notion.
@Octogon:
I find this highly unlikley.
yawn
I've already said this before.
Lightning travels in air at a speed of 150,000 km/s. That's virtual teleportation. Lucci could never in a hundred thousand years be that fast, unless of course he was in a manga called Dragonball Z.
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@Octogon:
It's stated in one of the OP databooks that Mihawk can 'Cut the elements'
Sounds to me like a special, as of yet unrevealed aspect of his fighting style ^_^
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Cutting elements doesn't exactly mean he beat a Logia. Logia-users have gotten smashed, cut, stabbed, and blown apart all the time, and they typically just shrug it off and get to killing. :|
cutting elements has a special meaning to it.Of course you could stick a blade in a flame and state you've just cut fire but that's not it.
"cutting elements" goes in the direction of cutting on a spiritual level.
Yibis One Piece Fansubs
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There's no such thing as a non-tiered group
Even in OP, the Shichibaki range all over creation. The Pirates in any given ocean range all over creation. Cipher Pol in general range 1-9, and even in CP9 the douriki range was from 650ish up to 4000. Even among the Admirals, Akoiji is said to be the strongest, and even among regular captains, it's obvious that Smoker is a whole different league than these clowns, who are also a different league from the ones who stayed on the ships, as these are the 200 STRONGEST captains present. Meaning there are more weaker captains still on the ships, and there's still variation in both those groups of captains even. Among the Straw Hats there is certainly a range in combat ability, and among ANYTHING there is going to be a range.
Yes, there is likely a minimum power for being a VA, but that's the minimum. It's not, "Oh you have to be Shichibaki level just to qualify for VA membership" thats just overhyping it to death and back.
This will be my last post on this topic too, it really is differing opinions I guess. I can't see how people can blindly assign such a high and completely flat level to a unit that we have seen do jack squat and have complete faith in the concept, especially considering the completely underwhelming performance of the captains, I see no reason to assume these VA's would completely overperform.
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Ener could kill Croc or Mihawk, who are Shichibukai, but he would lose to Aokiji just as easily as he could kill the former two. Strength is relative, which is why I cannot understand why people say, "Lucci was the strongest villan in the series" when Ener's immense power is many times greater.
Not to discount Oda, but saying someone can "cut the elements" sounds a lot like "cutting nothing". Think about it; if "nothing" is "something", cutting nothing means cutting something. On the other hand, if nothing is "the absence of something", cutting nothing means just that. This is a philosophical "pun" of sorts.
Believing that Mihawk can "cut the elements" when common sense says he can't outside of using some cheap voodoo magic is just like believing in superstition, or something about religion (like how Moses crossed the "Red" sea instead of the correct "Reed" sea) even when there's mounds of scientific (which means verifiable) evidence to discredit the notion.
yawn
I've already said this before.
Why would Enel beat Croc but not Aokiji?
And what's this about voodoo? It's a fantasy manga and if Oda says that a man with a 12-foot long sword can cut an albino who is made of lighting then I'm gonna believe him!
Besides, Zoro's cut steel already, and that's impossible unless the sword is made of something stronger then steel. Hell, one flashback and we can explain pretty much every crazy technique in this manga (yet without one, we are apparently lost…).
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yawn
I've already said this before.
Yes terek, we know, we listened the first nine times and then we tuned out. ^_^
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Ener could kill Croc or Mihawk, who are Shichibukai, but he would lose to Aokiji just as easily as he could kill the former two. Strength is relative, which is why I cannot understand why people say, "Lucci was the strongest villan in the series" when Ener's immense power is many times greater.
Why people say Enel or Croc can beat Mihawk is above me.
Not to discount Oda, but saying someone can "cut the elements" sounds a lot like "cutting nothing". Think about it; if "nothing" is "something", cutting nothing means cutting something. On the other hand, if nothing is "the absence of something", cutting nothing means just that. This is a philosophical "pun" of sorts.
You are not Oda. You do not know what he meant. As of now we have to assume that Mihawk cutting the lements means just that.
Believing that Mihawk can "cut the elements" when common sense says he can't outside of using some cheap voodoo magic is just like believing in superstition, or something about religion (like how Moses crossed the "Red" sea instead of the correct "Reed" sea) even when there's mounds of scientific (which means verifiable) evidence to discredit the notion.
This is a manga. Is it really so hard to believe Mihawk (and others, probaley) can harm logia's without exposing their weakness? It's no less believeable than sprouting extra lmbs or Asura.
yawn
I've already said this before.
**I'm sorry. I did not realize that you knew the limits in speed to the OP world. I also did not notice that it is obvious that lighting has to be faster than any living thing in a manga, right?
@ Myoti. I'm sure it means a little more than that. Or else anyone with a sword can cut the elements.**
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Why would Enel beat Croc but not Aokiji?
People in the Southwest have made careers out of collecting "lightning glass", which occurs when lightning strikes sand during storms. If Ener fought Croc, he'd turn him to glass and that would be the end of him.
And what's this about voodoo? It's a fantasy manga and if Oda says that a man with a 12-foot long sword can cut an albino who is made of lighting then I'm gonna believe him!
We don't know if Mihawk has voodoo magic or not; I'm just saying I thought "cutting the elements" was the same as "dividing by zero" in context of the manga; Mihawk was so powerful he could do the impossible.
Then again, if he has voodoo it would be pretty lame since Zoro doesn't and he's been training physically solely with the belief that Mihawk achieved his skill and strength in the same way; through raw, unadulterated and constant training.
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Believing that Mihawk can "cut the elements" when common sense says he can't outside of using some cheap voodoo magic is just like believing in superstition, or something about religion (like how Moses crossed the "Red" sea instead of the correct "Reed" sea) even when there's mounds of scientific (which means verifiable) evidence to discredit the notion.
it has already been introduced with "the breath of things".I'd say cutting elements is part of the mastery of that area.
the breath is the essence.
manga - science O_o
Yibis One Piece Fansubs
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heh we get to see the last march of the merry. i can already picture it in my head. the strawhats running away while it's being bombarted by canons and getting wrecked. the merry survives long enough to get the strawhats safely away from the bustercall and to water 7. after that we will see a shot of merry and probably it telling usopp thanks for caring so much for it and it officially sinking into the ocean. lol imagine it sorta looking like the final scene from terminator 2 with merry slowly sinking and usopp and the rest of the crew crying and the last part you see of merry is the head as it goes down into the ocean.
