Chapter 397 "To Reach the Future" Discussion

[Ivotas]

@MasterDee:

BTW, my original point was not that the WG does not have enough troops to find and capture the strongest of criminals. What I was originally trying to point out was whether or not there exists anyone within the WG (admirals and all) who is able to confront and capture the strongest pirates. But I digress. Your argument that the reason they haven't caught the big fishes yet is due to the simple fact that they can't find them is a valid one. Still, I really can't see someone like White Beard being afraid of the WG and actively trying to hide from them as this hardly seems like something the strongest man in the world would do.

I didn´t mean that Whitebeard is running away from them. What I meant is that Whitebeard must know how to get away with all of his stuff. Take for instance Drug dealers. The small fry has to carefully watch every step to not get cought by the police. The supreme big boss at the top however can´t be cought that easily by the security forces. They know he´s a criminal, they know he´s the boss and he knows how to avoid being arrested.

I meant this sort of thing. Of course you can´t fully compare that to pirates but that´s what I meant with knowing how to get away with it. It wasn´t about running away.

@Ubiq:

That doesn't say anything about them being the strongest Marines, only that they're at the top of the Naval hierarchy. Those three Admirals together are the Greatest Powers of the World Goverment, but strength is not the only way to achieve greatness. Wars not make one great and such.

You know, if they would be called "Greatest Powers of the Marine" then I would agree with you and I would say that it stands for the power status their rank gives them.

But they are called "Greatest Powers of the World Govnerment" and if you look at it that way that it stands for power status then it would mean that except for the Gorousei the Three Admirals stay on top of the WG hierarchy. To me it does seem out of place if the highest ranked soldiers stay on top of governments unless of course the government is a military dictatorship, which in One Piece is not the case.

So if they are called greatest powers of the WG then I in fact think that it has to stay for their strenght levels. This is One Piece after all. It´s not like in the real world where the lower ranked guys can be much stronger then their superiors.

[Oboro Tennosuke]

@Ivotas:

I didn´t mean that Whitebeard is running away from them. What I meant is that Whitebeard must know how to get away with all of his stuff. Take for instance Drug dealers. The small fry has to carefully watch every step to not get cought by the police. The supreme big boss at the top however can´t be cought that easily by the security forces. They know he´s a criminal, they know he´s the boss and he knows how to avoid being arrested.

I meant this sort of thing. Of course you can´t fully compare that to pirates but that´s what I meant with knowing how to get away with it. It wasn´t about running away.

You know, if they would be called "Greatest Powers of the Marine" then I would agree with you and I would say that it stands for the power status their rank gives them.

But they are called "Greatest Powers of the World Govnerment" and if you look at it that way that it stands for power status then it would mean that except for the Gorousei the Three Admirals stay on top of the WG hierarchy. To me it does seem out of place if the highest ranked soldiers stay on top of governments unless of course the government is a military dictatorship, which in One Piece is not the case.

So if they are called greatest powers of the WG then I in fact think that it has to stay for their strenght levels. This is One Piece after all. It´s not like in the real world where the lower ranked guys can be much stronger then their superiors.

You sure put a lot of thought in your posts. Props.

Just one thing: your last sentence was invalidated by the fact that Spandam/Spandain lead many people, which are oviously much stronger than them….In One Piece one's strength is probably the first indicator fore one's valor, but there are also a few cases of people who went up the ranks thanks to particular strategies, or politics. Other than the Spandas, I think people like Nezumi fit this category.

[Ivotas]

@Oboro:

Just one thing: your last sentence was invalidated by the fact that Spandam/Spandain lead many people, which are oviously much stronger than them….In One Piece one's strength is probably the first indicator fore one's valor, but there are also a few cases of people who went up the ranks thanks to particular strategies, or politics. Other than the Spandas, I think people like Nezumi fit this category.

Well Spandam himself in chapter 379 that it doesn´t matter because he´s the chief. In other words he the director, a bureaucratic coward that orders others to do his fighting. Actually this suits a government organisation. For the military however this wouldn´t work in One Piece. But that´s not what Spandam and Spandain are.

Nezumi on the other hand doesn´t shine as one powerful dude but on the other hand the guys he commands don´t seem to be stronger then him anyways so even if he is weak he could still be the strongest in his branch.

[Mamed]

wow 13 pages i read until page 6½ but will contiune later. Just wanna make a replay so i don't feel i'm being left outside :)

regaring the str->high rank i would say that you can obviously say that you can climb the ladder by politics but you dont havto be strong to be in a top position as long as you know how to command. Spandain is in his position through politics as is Spandam but as long as you are a good general you dont havto do the fights yourself. Just read the art of war. ( Some the greatest leaders through time like Saladin, Napoleon, Timor all had the soldiers do the fighting they just planed and leaded the battle)

hope you understand

[Paulie]

True, but this is shounen. In shounen, the commanders ARE usually stronger than their men.

[Greg]

So that was the extent of a Buster Calls power` eh? My feeling about Robin after her actions at Enies Lobby are reconfirmed.

[Voodzik]

@omae:

So that was the extent of a Buster Calls power` eh? My feeling about Robin after her actions at Enies Lobby are reconfirmed.

=( Dude, in the space of a couple of hours her home, the entire country she grew up in, her planned purpose in life (studying at the tree of knowledge) and everyone she ever loved including her mother who she met for the first time a total of ninety seconds before it all happened were destroyed in a blazing inferno.

Lighten up on the girl, will ya!?:wacko:

That's an interesting point to make: All the other straw hats CHOSE to leave their homeland (one way or another) but Robin was not ony forced out, she had to watch it be destroyed.

[Greg]

Dude, in the space of a couple of hours her home, the entire country she grew up in, her planned purpose in life (studying at the tree of knowledge) and everyone she ever loved including her mother who she met for the first time a total of ninety seconds before it all happened were destroyed in a blazing inferno.

You seem to have forgotten our beef with Robin. She screwed Luffy and the others when she hesitated. Why? To save them from the island-destroying power of the Buster Call. From what I saw they fired a shit-load of cannons and a few heartless bastards wiped out innocents who couldn`t fend for themselves.. ooooooh.

Gomu Gomu no Fuusen? Karasuma Gari?

I can see Luffy shaking in his sandals.

[*Meh*]

Nah, more like Ao Kiji and Akainu directing the Buster Call. The ten warships aren't much of a threat for Luffy, but what about Zoro, Usopp, Sanji, Nami, and Chopper? They can't exactly bounce cannonballs off themselves. While Sanji and Zoro might be able to cut/kick down a hell of a lot of them, it's still a land-based force versus a sea-based force; in recorded human history, a land force has beaten a sea force twice. Twice! In some 10,000 years of warfare! Robin knows exactly how strong her nakama are; she also knows that they could fight and fight until they're exhausted, and still get killed by a random shot in the end. Yes, in light of the fact that they've already forfeited their lives by coming to EL, she is being an ass. Nevertheless, as a an assassin, she knows inevitability is just as lethal in a fight as grit.

[Audity]

Three admirals of pretty much greatest powers in the Marines with known insane destruction power are part of the Buster Call. Luffy lost to one of them. Enough said.

Okay maybe not enough said. All the above plus Robin's own inner turmoil and hope to make a change in the 20 years that have been nothing but the same.

[Ubiq]

@omae:

Gomu Gomu no Fuusen?

Considering that these are battleships, they would be designed for facing heavier and more powerful ships than usual and may have access to shaped charges on top of the regular cannonballs. If so, Luffy would be hard-pressed to rebound those.

I'm sure that the Vice Admirals have been fully informed of what to expect and would have taken appropriate countermeasures, especially if anybody bothered to talk to Hina.

[Ivotas]

@Paulie:

True, but this is shounen. In shounen, the commanders ARE usually stronger than their men.

Thanks Paulie, I was about to say the same thing. That is the base on which I´m argumenting actually.

[Satsuki]

@Paulie:

True, but this is shounen. In shounen, the commanders ARE usually stronger than their men.

With the notable exception of CP9.

[Ivotas]

@Satsuki:

With the notable exception of CP9.

For all the Marine´s and Pirates we´ve approached so far it applies that the commanders are stronger then the subordinates. And seeing it that the Marine as a military facility itself and pirates as guys who do lots of attacking and plundering both have to be strong the Shonen formula makes sense here.

For a bureaucratic apparat however as the WG it doesn´t have to be that way. Spandam and Spandain are the only guys in One Piece that are weaker then their subordinates and both are directors of a government group. As I mentioned above Spandam himself said that he doesn´t have to be strong because he´s the chief. The Shonen formula doesn´t have apply to a body that isn´t made up entirely of fighters such as the WG. For things like the Marine and Pirates however it has to.

[Paulie]

Spandam's notable because he IS the exception. It's been mentioned, made fun of, and explained several times. If this was the case with two (or even just one) of the three top dogs of the military, it wouldn't be nearly so noticable OR unique, now would it?

[Ubiq]

@Ivotas:

For all the Marine´s and Pirates we´ve approached so far it applies that the commanders are stronger then the subordinates. And seeing it that the Marine as a military facility itself and pirates as guys who do lots of attacking and plundering both have to be strong the Shonen formula makes sense here.

As far as pirates are concerned, it makes perfect sense that the Captains be the strongest members of the crew or at least as strong as anybody else in the crew, but with defining qualities that set them above anybody with equal strength in the crew. Pirates by nature are a lawless bunch and it would take an iron hand to keep them in line.

It makes less sense for the Navy to operate in that fashion as the higher upstairs a Marine is, the less frontline action that individual is going to see as their bureaucratic and symbolic duties will take a greater portion of their time. Constantly shoving a strong fighter upstairs is actually going to make them less and less useful as well as the fact that Admirals, by virtue of their rank, are going to be conspicuous by their absence and are going to be recognized on sight, unlike lower ranked officers, who are going to be able to move around without drawing as much attention.

For instance, Aokiji wasn't supposed to be gallivanting around the Grand Line by himself, he was supposed to be either at Mariejoa or at the Naval Headquarters on the chance that he was needed for something.

So why is he an Admiral? Well, to be blunt, his nature is somewhat untrustworthy as far as the World Government is concerned; he believes in Justice, but his feelings on such are considerably less draconian than his colleague Akainu. On the other hand, he's not quite as openly hostile towards authority as Smoker and would not be constantly pushed down the ranks as a result. His track record would demand that he be given a considerable amount of authority.

He may well be an Admiral because it's a position where the World Government still has some use of his strength, but also allows the Gorosei and his Naval superior/colleagues to keep a close eye on him. Paranoia is the byword of this government and the only Marine that the Gorosei trust implictly is Sengoku. Allowing Aokiji to roam around the Grand Line would not be in their best interests. Better to give him more authority by promoting him as high as possible than to give him the relative freedom of a lower rank.

We know how strong Aokiji is, but we are unaware as to the strength of Akainu, Kizaru, or Sengoku himself. It's hard to imagine how they could be stronger than Aokiji; barring flukes, the only thing strong as or stronger than a Logia Power is another Logia and the two Logia powers that are arguably stronger than the Hie Hie Fruit (Suna Suna and Mera Mera) are in the hands of known criminals. I think we can reasonably write off there being a Steam Logia thanks to the prior existence of Smoker and Luffy's Jet techniques.

Aokiji could very easily be the strongest Marine that there is.

The Shonen formula doesn´t have apply to a body that isn´t made up entirely of fighters such as the WG.

But the Cipher Pols are clearly a body of fighters. The original implication on the Sea Train is that the Cipher Pols increased in strength as the numbers increased, which, by manga logic, should indicate that the leader of the organization should be the strongest fighter, which is clearly not the case.

Unless, of course, Spandam's swordsmanship abilities are completely unaffected by his natural clumsiness.

For things like the Marine and Pirates however it has to.

The latter yes, the first, not necessarily.

[Paulie]

I seriously doubt that they made him admiral because they need to keep an eye on him.

By "on call in case something happens," which you say yourself, it sounds more like they made him admiral because he's DAMN STRONG, and keep him where they can easily CONTACT HIM and DISPATCH HIM, not where they can keep an eye on him, in case something huge happens and they need his strength.

THAT makes more sense than keeping a horrifically strong fighter on the front lines… where'd they'd likely only be dealing with small fry pirates.

[joekido the Second]

@omae:

You seem to have forgotten our beef with Robin. She screwed Luffy and the others when she hesitated. Why? To save them from the island-destroying power of the Buster Call. From what I saw they fired a shit-load of cannons and a few heartless bastards wiped out innocents who couldn`t fend for themselves.. ooooooh.

Gomu Gomu no Fuusen? Karasuma Gari?

I can see Luffy shaking in his sandals.

Omae no Kassan Ver. 2 you cup….
"20 years ago, the BC shot shitloads of simple cannons made by marines who had no fucking clue how to make volcano cannons. The island Ohara was set on fire while some heartless Vice-Admiral assholes bomb ransom evacution ship leaving port. It took 15 minutes for Ohara to burn. 20 years later, Robin's mind over the events changed. As her mind evovluted the BC into an "blow it in 1 second" instand of an 15 mintues burning."

Robin: OMFS!!! THE BUSTER CALL IS INESCAPABLE!!!! AAHHHHH!!!

"Spandam press the button, the BC appears."

Luffy: What the!? What the hell is that!?
Nami: It must be a buster call!!

Luffy: THE BUSTER CALL!? Nooooo!!! Anything BUT THAT! I CAN'T FIGHT IT!! AAAAAHHHHHH!! I GIVE UP! YOU WON, SPANDAM!!

"Waves the white flag and runs off the courthouse roof into the waterfall, crying and screaming"

Zoro: No! My swords can't handle that!
"Ran after Luffy into the waterfall"

Sanji: Uh, I think my leg retired. Come Nami-San!
"Ran after Zoro into the waterfall"

Nami: My weather tempo is not working...
"Ran after Sanji into the waterfall"

Sogeking: I guess I lied....
"Takes off his mask and ran after Nami into the waterfall"

Chopper: Usopp! DON'T LEAVE ME HERE!!
"Ran after Usopp into the waterfall"

Franky: OH SHIT THE BUSTER CALL!!! WAIT FOR ME!!!
"Jumps in the waterfall even if he is not offically a Straw-Hat crew"

Robin: .......
CP9: .......
Spandam: .......

"Sauro appears as a ghost"

Spandam: Whoa! A ghost!
CP9: !

Sauro: Robin, you stubborn spineless bastard shithead!!!!!! Your friends could have destoryed the buster call cannons! THEY OLNY SHOOT SHITLOADS OF CANNONS!!!!!! THEY DON'T JUST BLAST AN ISLAND IN ONE SECOND!!! WHAT'S THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU!?!

"Ghosts of Luffy, Zoro, Nami, Sanji, Usopp, Chopper and Franky rose up. They stare at Robin with an angrey look."

Spandam and the CP9: O_O''''

Robin: Oops, I screwed......

"A huge 'THE END' sign lands on Robin, Spandam and the CP9. Killing them with a 'DON'!!!"

[Ubiq]

@Paulie:

I seriously doubt that they made him admiral because they need to keep an eye on him.

Then what other reason is there to do so when it limits his mobility as well as their ability to use him?

By "on call in case something happens," which you say yourself, it sounds more like they made him admiral because he's DAMN STRONG, and keep him where they can easily CONTACT HIM and DISPATCH HIM, not where they can keep an eye on him, in case something huge happens and they need his strength.

Which also means that he's going to be spending the bulk of his time sitting on his ass waiting for somebody to give himself something to do. That wouldn't be so much of a problem for most officers, who would fill the time with paperwork that comes from having high ranks, working on strategies to help combat piracy or insurgencies, or even playing politics to gain favor with the Gorosei.

An Admiral is going to have an even larger administrative workload than a Vice Admiral (and we've seen a few of those with what seem to be largely administrative positions); is Aokiji going to order around the various assets of the Navy? I doubt it, the guy is a lazy bastard. So what is he doing with his time? Going for joyrides on his bicycle?

THAT makes more sense than keeping a horrifically strong fighter on the front lines… where'd they'd likely only be dealing with small fry pirates.

Which is precisely what he should be doing. Aokiji could probably crush every pirate crew seen before Alabasta combined with little effort. By getting rid of those minor annoyances, the Navy could free up resources to focus on the bigger threats. He also has a much greater chance of encountering those major pirates roaming around on the Grand Line than he does sitting at Naval Headquarters.

As is, they've largely taken him out of the fight. I'd suggest that the World Government wants to be losing to the pirates if not for the fact that the Gorosei have repeatedly expressed concern about that very situation.

[Battle Franky]

So who wants to take bets on chapter 398?

(Full flashback chapter)

:molly:

I'll go with (B).

[KatanaJon1.1]

I'll go with C, it just seems right to have the flashback end. It's at the perfect point.

[Ivotas]

@Ubiq:

But the Cipher Pols are clearly a body of fighters. The original implication on the Sea Train is that the Cipher Pols increased in strength as the numbers increased, which, by manga logic, should indicate that the leader of the organization should be the strongest fighter, which is clearly not the case.

But Spandam´s own words out him as a non-fighter. He´s just the director that commands the fighters. So the structure is different then in a body that consists only of fighters. Among the fighters themselves there you have the rank formula again. The guy with the pimp coat is the guy with the highest Doriki.

As far was the Marine is concerned. I get what you´re saying, the point is just that the Marine is a Shonen military unit so it doesn´t have to be coherent to the real worlds military unit in terms of rising strenght with higher ranks.

@Battle:

So who wants to take bets on chapter 398?

(A) Robin's flashback continues. (Full flashback chapter)
(B) Partial flashback, leading back to the present day Enies Lobby
(C) No flashback whatsoever. Chapter begins in the present day.

I'll go with (B).

I´ll go with B, because the switching from main story to flashbacks and vice versa are always done with the well written "thoughts fading aways" style. If it would be A, then the switch from flashback to main story would seem really chopped out.

Plus, actually not everything has been answered so far. Robin needs to get her bounty and with what Kuzan told her I doubt that he´s the one that gave it to her. He seems more to be a guy who would watch out for her every moves even if he wouldn´t have a high bounty. In fact he saved her life in order to see what will become of her. If he would place a bounty on her head then he would already predetermine which path she has to go in life. Doesn´t seem very logic.

So the bounty must be someone else´s doing. It would actually fit such a sleezy character like Spandain. But in order that he can place a bounty on her head he has to know that she´s alive first. And right now, the flashback doesn´t indicate that anyone besides Kuzan knows it.

[Greg]

@joekido:

Omae no Kassan Ver. 2 you cup….
"20 years ago, the BC shot shitloads of simple cannons made by marines who had no fucking clue how to make volcano cannons. The island Ohara was set on fire while some heartless Vice-Admiral assholes bomb ransom evacution ship leaving port. It took 15 minutes for Ohara to burn. 20 years later, Robin's mind over the events changed. As her mind evovluted the BC into an "blow it in 1 second" instand of an 15 mintues burning."

Robin: OMFS!!! THE BUSTER CALL IS INESCAPABLE!!!! AAHHHHH!!!

"Spandam press the button, the BC appears."

Luffy: What the!? What the hell is that!?
Nami: It must be a buster call!!

Luffy: THE BUSTER CALL!? Nooooo!!! Anything BUT THAT! I CAN'T FIGHT IT!! AAAAAHHHHHH!! I GIVE UP! YOU WON, SPANDAM!!

"Waves the white flag and runs off the courthouse roof into the waterfall, crying and screaming"

Zoro: No! My swords can't handle that!
"Ran after Luffy into the waterfall"

Sanji: Uh, I think my leg retired. Come Nami-San!
"Ran after Zoro into the waterfall"

Nami: My weather tempo is not working...
"Ran after Sanji into the waterfall"

Sogeking: I guess I lied....
"Takes off his mask and ran after Nami into the waterfall"

Chopper: Usopp! DON'T LEAVE ME HERE!!
"Ran after Usopp into the waterfall"

Franky: OH SHIT THE BUSTER CALL!!! WAIT FOR ME!!!
"Jumps in the waterfall even if he is not offically a Straw-Hat crew"

Robin: .......
CP9: .......
Spandam: .......

"Sauro appears as a ghost"

Spandam: Whoa! A ghost!
CP9: !

Sauro: Robin, you stubborn spineless bastard shithead!!!!!! Your friends could have destoryed the buster call cannons! THEY OLNY SHOOT SHITLOADS OF CANNONS!!!!!! THEY DON'T JUST BLAST AN ISLAND IN ONE SECOND!!! WHAT'S THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU!?!

"Ghosts of Luffy, Zoro, Nami, Sanji, Usopp, Chopper and Franky rose up. They stare at Robin with an angrey look."

Spandam and the CP9: O_O''''

Robin: Oops, I screwed......

"A huge 'THE END' sign lands on Robin, Spandam and the CP9. Killing them with a 'DON'!!!"

Im sure that took a while to write but Im not sure exactly what it is you`re attempting to express.

Considering that these are battleships, they would be designed for facing heavier and more powerful ships than usual and may have access to shaped charges on top of the regular cannonballs. If so, Luffy would be hard-pressed to rebound those.

Or not. Cant know for certain unless its written as such. ^_~ And the case isnt whether they could defend against it or not because shaped charges` or nuclear warheads or not, if Oda wanted to he could make even Nami find a way to disengage them.

And either way Im still not impressed with the supposed awesome power of Buster Call. Yeah maybe its ruthless and indiscriminant but please. THAT is what made Robin fuck everyone over and put them in their current position? Yawn.

Maybe if they had a freakin` nano-cannon with the Government stamp on it or something that actually COULD take out something like a landmass in a single swipe I could see it but regardless:

I find her lack of faith disturbing. Naturally things will change after this little kick to her ovaries but I`ll never be anything less than disgusted with her actions in that one chapter.

And now for something completely different.

Dunno if anyone picked up JUMP or read through Naruto but last years character rank results are in. Yet again Naruto, the main character and name-sake of the series isnt even the most popular character in 4th place. S`shame.

[Voodzik]

An interesting point on the chapter title…

do you think it could partly be Oda saying "Boy, I am tired of this #$^#$^ flashback." ?

[Greg]

Also, dunno if anyone mentioned this but OP will have yet another new ED: Ashita wa kuru kara aaaaand the semi-shocker (well to me at least) is that it`s from a Korean choir group, Touhoushinki 東方神起

CD goes on sale March 8th but dunno about when the ED starts.

Also the film`s theme will be done by the ever-semi-popular NEWS.

[oceanizer]

Um, wrong place to mention that?

[Daz]

@omae:

And either way Im still not impressed with the supposed awesome power of Buster Call. Yeah maybe its ruthless and indiscriminant but please. THAT is what made Robin fuck everyone over and put them in their current position? Yawn.

Maybe if they had a freakin` nano-cannon with the Government stamp on it or something that actually COULD take out something like a landmass in a single swipe I could see it but regardless:

I find her lack of faith disturbing. Naturally things will change after this little kick to her ovaries but I`ll never be anything less than disgusted with her actions in that one chapter.

Ubiq has already pointed out several times that theres no reason the WG would have acess to island-disentegrators, and the Vice-admiral factor has already been pointed out, so I'll merely say why BC itself> Luffy:

Judging by the size of the explosions, and the BC ships' turrets, the shells are pretty damn big. And would a gomu gomu no Fuusen be able to repel projectiles the same size as himself? Could it have stopped the ALabasta bombing? I think not.
Even if that doesn't cut it, why shouldn't the ultimate-destruction ships of Buster Call be equipped with the steel spikes of Hinas measly fleet?
What I mean is, what could any Straw Hat do against the Buster Call ships?
Would Luffy be able to pick em up Saul style, or Zoro be able to cut them Mihawk-style? What could Usopp, Nami, and Chopper do at all?

[Voodzik]

@The:

Ubiq has already pointed out several times that theres no reason the WG would have acess to island-disentegrators, and the Vice-admiral factor has already been pointed out, so I'll merely say why BC itself> Luffy:

Judging by the size of the explosions, and the BC ships' turrets, the shells are pretty damn big. And would a gomu gomu no Fuusen be able to repel projectiles the same size as himself? Could it have stopped the ALabasta bombing? I think not.
Even if that doesn't cut it, why shouldn't the ultimate-destruction ships of Buster Call be equipped with the steel spikes of Hinas measly fleet?
What I mean is, what could any Straw Hat do against the Buster Call ships?
Would Luffy be able to pick em up Saul style, or Zoro be able to cut them Mihawk-style? What could Usopp, Nami, and Chopper do at all?

Actually, Usopp could probably take one or two out by firing his exploding stars into the ammo storage…and Nami could probably make a big tornado over a couple. But I see your point...there'd be too many.

On the other hand, maybe we'll get to see by the time the story arc is over :P

[Daz]

Shooting the ammo storage? From where? He'd have to be on the ship and have at least the door to the storage in sight (plus, it'd have to be open) to pull it off - blowing himself up in the process.
And it's true that we haven't seen the full potential of the "True clima tact", but judging by the Thunderstorm over the marines, it still haven't got enough power. Besides, Nami would have no way of affecting the air above the Buster Call ships…her range is too short.

[Ivotas]

@The:

What I mean is, what could any Straw Hat do against the Buster Call ships?
Would Luffy be able to pick em up Saul style, or Zoro be able to cut them Mihawk-style? What could Usopp, Nami, and Chopper do at all?

To be honest, without the protection of the Vice-Admirals I´d say that 5 of the (soon to be 8) Strawhats could each rape one of those ships alone. I wonder how people ignore the demonstration of strenght against objects, the protagonists have shown so far when it gets to the battleship discussion. Let´s list the five strong guys seperately:

1. Luffy: He smashed Arlong Park when he was a lot weaker then he is now, he punched Crocodile through pure bedrock and caused parts of Arbana to collapse and his final blow against Enel was strong enough to knock that gigantic golden bell off the cloud. And that was all before he developed Gear 2nd. How can anybody doubt that after he defeats Lucci (which will probably give him a new power boost) he won´t be able to smash a gigantic ship if he releases all his anger against it? Sorry, but to me he definitely has the power to smash that ship already.

2. Zoro: Not much to say actually. His swordsman skill may not be developed enough to beat Mihawk but I´m sure that after he already cut the Umi-Ressha cars, he could easily perform the same move Mihawk performed on Kriegs ship. It´s just larger in size but that can´t make for the difference here.

3. Nico Robin: Her powers are surely enough to at least turn the firepower of one battleship against it self (if not against others even).

4. Franky: This works only if he is the one to join. Well, I think we´ve all seen what Coupe de Vent did to Dock 1. I doubt that he could do any lesser damage to a battleship.

5. Sanji: Well, this one is tough actually. I don´t have any good reference to show that he could do it. But I don´t see him falling behind the other 4 guys on that matter.

This makes 5 battleships that can each destroyed a single Strawhat Pirate each. However I think if it comes that far, that those guys will actually take the ships that have Vice-Admirals, making the destruction come along with the defeat of the highest ranked officers.

Well that leaves still five battleships. How to defeat them? I said it before and I´ll say it again, everybody completely rules out the possibility of the new Strawhat ship. Let´s just assume that indeed Franky builds that ship, his dream ship to be precise, then this one should actually be able to take down at least one or two battleships. I mean if a random Battle Franky could take down a large sea king (which I consider to be even more dangerous then a battleship) then I´m sure as hell that his dream ship should be able to take down Marine battleships.

Now the second factor of the dream ship is Usopp. Imagine you give a ship with enough firepower to take down battleships alone to a sharpshooter like Usopp = Instakill. As I said it before in another thread, though One Piece is a pirate story we haven´t seen classic sea battles so far. I seriously doubt that this will be left out in One Piece so that´s where the dream ship, Usopp, Nami and Chopper would come into play. Usopp alone can´t maneuver the ship, he has to do the sharpshooting. Nami and Chopper would have to make sure that the ship is no easy target.

Of course the part about the dream ship is very vague because we have no backup in the story for it so far. But I wouldn´t rule out the possibility of it and if it should really happen like that, I know I wouldn´t be surprised. And as far as the Luffy, Zoro, Robin, Franky and Sanji being able to destroy a ship is concerned. I think that should be a given now already. But that´s just me.

[Majek]

Yes Ivotas , they could defeat the Buster call but on the other ahnd i can see them losing as well. I mean i they come prepared to fight them and with a good plan you can take out the Strawhats without any major problems. Even without the Vice Admirals supporting you. But

like you said "ages ago" and repeated it many times, it's all predictable and they will overcome everything because that's how this story is. (or something like that =) ) That's why is don't even try to discuss what they can and what they can't do. :sleep:

[Voodzik]

@The:

Shooting the ammo storage? From where? He'd have to be on the ship and have at least the door to the storage in sight (plus, it'd have to be open) to pull it off - blowing himself up in the process.
And it's true that we haven't seen the full potential of the "True clima tact", but judging by the Thunderstorm over the marines, it still haven't got enough power. Besides, Nami would have no way of affecting the air above the Buster Call ships…her range is too short.

Actually, usopp could probably sink a shi[ just by firing into the barrel of a prepped canon, which I think we all agree he's got the aim to do. As for the Clima Tact, we'll have to wait and see.

[ooshi78]

all of the strawhats got whooped by aokiji and he was just one part of ohara's buster call…

ooshi78

[Ivotas]

@ooshi78:

all of the strawhats got whooped by aokiji and he was just one part of ohara's buster call…

Yes, and Saul who just raped half the Buster Call fleet and is a Vice-Admiral himself, was also whooped by an even 20 year younger Aokiji.

I seriously doubt that Aokiji´s strenght can be a good indicator for this. He´s far to superior to compare other Vice Admirals to him. He´s not the Marine HQ´s strongest officer.

[Malintex_Terek]

@ooshi78:

all of the strawhats got whooped by aokiji and he was just one part of ohara's buster call…

ooshi78

Right, but Aokiji probably has the strongest devil fruit in the series. Of the three logia weaknesses (Seastone, Elemental Weakness, Swimming), Aokiji has no real need to swim because he can walk on water (I inference this) or can turn himself into a block of ice and just float somewhere.

Aokiji could kill Crocodile by making a spear out of ice, let it melt a bit, and stab through Croc's heart. Eneru couldn't hurt him in the slightest because ice almost nonconductive of electricity. Touching Aokiji with physical blows is damaging.

He's virtually a demi-god at this point in the series, which is good incentive for Luffy to develop a long ranged technique (derivatives of Second Gear) to battle him.

Hey…didn't I invert my avatar? What happened here?

[Polygon]

If the battleships were in the water and the strawhats wre on land. I wuld say they could cause signifigant famage to the buster call. but then there is the vice-Admirals. Who, just like the ships, are the buster call. And I don't think they can take on 5 vice-admirals.

@Ivotas:

Yes, and Saul who just raped half the Buster Call fleet and is a Vice-Admiral himself, was also whooped by an even 20 year younger Aokiji.

I seriously doubt that Aokiji´s strenght can be a good indicator for this. He´s far to superior to compare other Vice Admirals to him. He´s not the Marine HQ´s strongest officer.

you could be right about this, but Akainu ws also part of the buster call at the time. And he is an Admiral now. and while I do believe Ao-kiji is stronger than him, I don't think the difference between them in so great.

[Ivotas]

@Octogon:

you could be right about this, but Akainu ws also part of the buster call at the time. And he is an Admiral now. and while I do believe Ao-kiji is stronger than him, I don't think the difference between them in so great.

The point I was trying to prove earlier in this thread is that I doubt that there´s plenty Vice Admirals running around that could easily become Admirals. Just because Admiral is the next step a Vice Admiral could take it doesn´t necessarily mean that it is a small step to make. If it was so then I don´t think that there would be only three guys who hold that rank in the whole wide world.

[Polygon]

@Ivotas:

The point I was trying to prove earlier in this thread is that I doubt that there´s plenty Vice Admirals running around that could easily become Admirals. Just because Admiral is the next step a Vice Admiral could take it doesn´t necessarily mean that it is a small step to make. If it was so then I don´t think that there would be only three guys who hold that rank in the whole wide world.

**I agree. but we still don't know how the power of the vice-admirals in genral compare to the strengh of the Strawhats. Robin saw the buster call in action about 2 decades ago. Ao-kiji had pleny of time to achieve Admiral rank.

I think Ao-kiji was on Vice-Admiral level during the Ohara incident. and I believe he had a few more years until he became an admiral. And in truth we don't really know how his strengh then compared to now.

I agree that I don't think there are many ( if any) VA's that could easily become Admirals. But I stilll believe 5 vice-admirals along with 5 incredible ships are enoughf to take on the mugiwaras.**

[Ivotas]

@Octogon:

I agree that I don't think there are many ( if any) VA's that could easily become Admirals. But I stilll believe 5 vice-admirals along with 5 incredible ships are enoughf to take on the mugiwaras.

Well, that remains to be seen. Kuzan is at no point a good indicator to determine the strenght level of a generic Vice Admiral since he owned another Vice Admiral quicker then he owned the Strawhats 20 years later as Admiral.

And Saul, well yes definitely is pretty strong but he´s a D. who themselves aren´t regular guys. And let not forget that lifting that large battleship isn´t that much different then when Dorry was lifting that gigantic Sea King skull that had the size of an mountain. And Luffy opposed him. True, Dorry was injured but then again, we´re talking about pre-Crocodile defeat, pre-Enel defeat and pre-Gear 2nd Luffy here.

So if Saul is on the level of a generic Vice Admiral, Luffy shouldn´t be much below that level. Plus, he always grows in his fights. But if Saul himself is stronger then the average Vice Admiral, then I really don´t see the Vice Admirals out of the Mugiwara´s league. At least not for the main fighters.

[Ubiq]

@Ivotas:

But Spandam´s own words out him as a non-fighter. He´s just the director that commands the fighters.

Ah, but he's still the leader of the organization and everybody in the organization is under his authority. Lucci has made it clear that he doesn't care about the concepts that Spandam expounds, but Spandam is still his boss.

I get what you´re saying, the point is just that the Marine is a Shonen military unit so it doesn´t have to be coherent to the real worlds military unit in terms of rising strenght with higher ranks.

But again, there is at least one clear example in Smoker where an officer should, by all logic, be quite a bit more powerful than quite a few of his superior officers.

What evidence is there that the Navy is a typical Shonen military? Aokiji being fairly high up the ranks does not necessarily guarantee that Kizaru and Akainu are also at his level of strength nor does it necessarily guarantee that there are not Vice Admirals stronger than either of those two men.

We haven't even seen any of the higher level officers fight besides Aokiji and Sauro. On the other hand, we have seen a military operation performed by the Navy which indicates that it does function in fairly realistic ways.

@omae:

And either way Im still not impressed with the supposed awesome power of Buster Call. Yeah maybe its ruthless and indiscriminant but please.

Once again: the Buster Call did everything that it was supposed to in a manner that is perfectly in line with what we have seen from the Navy thus far and explains why they simply don't use this operation against pirates all of the time. I can't possibly see how that's supposed to be "disappointing" or "unimpressive" or whatever.

As I've said all along, it's not the ships, it's the Vice Admirals.

THAT is what made Robin fuck everyone over and put them in their current position? Yawn.

She lost everything that she ever loved or cared about as a result of the Buster Call. She doesn't want that to happen again.

I mean, I was pissed at her when she told Luffy to go away after all of the trouble that he went through for her, but not now.

I find her lack of faith disturbing.

It might have been different had Luffy, Robin, Zoro, and Sanji not had their asses kicked effortlessly by Aokiji only a couple of days ago. Even if they manage to beat the Buster Call, Aokiji would probably just come after them again himself.

[Ivotas]

@Ubiq:

Ah, but he's still the leader of the organization and everybody in the organization is under his authority. Lucci has made it clear that he doesn't care about the concepts that Spandam expounds, but Spandam is still his boss.

I feel like walking in circles with this discussion. The point is that the WG is a bureaucratic body that doesn´t have only fighters in it unlike a military body. CP9 does consist mainly of fighter, but it doesn´t consist fully of them. Spandam is the director. For a bureaucratic body it works well to have a director on top of the fighters.

But again, there is at least one clear example in Smoker where an officer should, by all logic, be quite a bit more powerful than quite a few of his superior officers.

I think it was made clear by Oda himself that Smoker is an exception by saying that he would have a higher rank if he wouldn´t be so headstrong. This clearly shows that his low rank is an attitude problem and not a strenght problem.

What evidence is there that the Navy is a typical Shonen military?

Huh? I thought that it is by now clear that except for Smoker we´ve seen that those guys with higher ranks are stronger then those with lower ranks. Except for Smoker I haven´t seen one subordinate that appears to be stronger then his superiors and even Smoker hasn´t shown that so far. We only assume so.

We haven't even seen any of the higher level officers fight besides Aokiji and Sauro. On the other hand, we have seen a military operation performed by the Navy which indicates that it does function in fairly realistic ways.

The realistic function is though limited in a world where battleships can be thrown around like toys. We shouldn´t put too much weight on the aspect of reality. The fights which are one of the core elements of the series definitely don´t follow reality and since strenght levels go in context with fighting we shouldn´t look at the whole rank/strenght thing from that point of view too much.

[Mog]

It might have been different had Luffy, Robin, Zoro, and Sanji not had their asses kicked effortlessly by Aokiji only a couple of days ago. Even if they manage to beat the Buster Call, Aokiji would probably just come after them again himself.

Yeah, I think the Aokiji incident had a considerable influence, too. If it didn't occur, Robin might've been less inclined to agree with the government's plans, but it's simply a fact that all of her friends were mercilessly beaten by Aokiji without him so much as breaking a sweat a couple of days prior.

But honestly, I don't really think it's about that at all. Faith in her friends be damned, she's just trying to protect them. Argue them being able to take down the Buster Call all you might, it would still be a hellish task, with the odds stacked against them. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't willingly want to send my friends into that kind of inferno even if I thought they might have a chance of coming out on top. Making the deal allowed her to protect the Strawhats in the best way imaginable. Even if she didn't and they would have managed to overcome the Buster Call in some way, they'd be labeled considerable threats and hunted down everywhere they'd go.

The Strawhats are really everything Robin has left, which this flashback helped indicate all the more. She doesn't want any harm to come to them, which is why even at the very last she still pleaded for them to leave the one place where it most definitely would. She's kind of desperate, and incredibly afraid the one thing she has left is going to be taken from her too. From us readers' point of view, it's not logical because we know the Strawhats can kick the ass of anything that might be thrown at them, because they're the heroes of the manga. Any and all amount of faith aside, this is hardly a certainty for Robin, even if she worshipped the Strawhats as living gods or something. There's always a risk, and it's one she's trying to avoid at all costs.

I dunno, but taking all that in mind, I find all of her actions to this point more than perfectly plausible.

[/unnecessarily long and sappy rant]

[dwaro]

Plus, Buster Call is not just a military operation, it's more like a threat level indicator. It's like the Navy's DEFCON, sort of. When they initiate a Buster Call, that's it, the Navy is going to push all its resources into eliminating a target just like Ohara. This is different from a bounty a criminal will receive in that the top Marines and navy battleships are used to pursue and eliminate its target. Once a Buster Call is initiated there's no way the Navy can turn back, short of the decimation of the entire Navy. Were the mugiwara ready to take on the entire world for Robin? Right now, they're willing to make that sacrifice, but Robin didn't know that when she made her decision, and couldn't expect them to make that sacrifice anyway.

[Ivotas]

I agree with what you said Mog. From Robin´s point of view there definitely is no sending the Strawhats to face the Buster Call. Her actions on that are as you say perfectly plausible. I never doubted that. She would probably rather face the Buster Call alone if she had only to make sure the Strawhats don´t get harmed by it.

[Cap'n Carter]

@joekido:

Omae no Kassan Ver. 2 you cup….
"20 years ago, the BC shot shitloads of simple cannons made by marines who had no fucking clue how to make volcano cannons. The island Ohara was set on fire while some heartless Vice-Admiral assholes bomb ransom evacution ship leaving port. It took 15 minutes for Ohara to burn. 20 years later, Robin's mind over the events changed. As her mind evovluted the BC into an "blow it in 1 second" instand of an 15 mintues burning."

Robin: OMFS!!! THE BUSTER CALL IS INESCAPABLE!!!! AAHHHHH!!!

"Spandam press the button, the BC appears."

Luffy: What the!? What the hell is that!?
Nami: It must be a buster call!!

Luffy: THE BUSTER CALL!? Nooooo!!! Anything BUT THAT! I CAN'T FIGHT IT!! AAAAAHHHHHH!! I GIVE UP! YOU WON, SPANDAM!!

"Waves the white flag and runs off the courthouse roof into the waterfall, crying and screaming"

Zoro: No! My swords can't handle that!
"Ran after Luffy into the waterfall"

Sanji: Uh, I think my leg retired. Come Nami-San!
"Ran after Zoro into the waterfall"

Nami: My weather tempo is not working...
"Ran after Sanji into the waterfall"

Sogeking: I guess I lied....
"Takes off his mask and ran after Nami into the waterfall"

Chopper: Usopp! DON'T LEAVE ME HERE!!
"Ran after Usopp into the waterfall"

Franky: OH SHIT THE BUSTER CALL!!! WAIT FOR ME!!!
"Jumps in the waterfall even if he is not offically a Straw-Hat crew"

Robin: .......
CP9: .......
Spandam: .......

"Sauro appears as a ghost"

Spandam: Whoa! A ghost!
CP9: !

Sauro: Robin, you stubborn spineless bastard shithead!!!!!! Your friends could have destoryed the buster call cannons! THEY OLNY SHOOT SHITLOADS OF CANNONS!!!!!! THEY DON'T JUST BLAST AN ISLAND IN ONE SECOND!!! WHAT'S THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU!?!

"Ghosts of Luffy, Zoro, Nami, Sanji, Usopp, Chopper and Franky rose up. They stare at Robin with an angrey look."

Spandam and the CP9: O_O''''

Robin: Oops, I screwed......

"A huge 'THE END' sign lands on Robin, Spandam and the CP9. Killing them with a 'DON'!!!"

please don't do that anymore.

Part of the reason Robin is scared of the Buster Call, I think, is because this all happened when she was a child. Seeing everything you love go up in flame by an indomitable force will definitely cause a psychological scar.

That and everything Mog went to the trouble of saying.

[GoAnderson]

@Cap'n:

please don't do that anymore.

Please allow me to second that, heartily. Not that I read it, it just gets aggrivating after… the third or fourth time. No offense is intended in these words, but...

Please, please, PLEASE, don't make me Ignore List you.

[Malintex_Terek]

@Mog:

But honestly, I don't really think it's about that at all. Faith in her friends be damned, she's just trying to protect them. Argue them being able to take down the Buster Call all you might, it would still be a hellish task, with the odds stacked against them. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't willingly want to send my friends into that kind of inferno even if I thought they might have a chance of coming out on top. Making the deal allowed her to protect the Strawhats in the best way imaginable. Even if she didn't and they would have managed to overcome the Buster Call in some way, they'd be labeled considerable threats and hunted down everywhere they'd go.

I'm not sure if Robin's really afraid of Buster Call; afterall, Luffy could beat the whole fleet by himself, as cannons are useless and he could simply snipe the lot with "Gomu Gomu no Jet Bazookas" all day. If Aokiji were to have used the fleet as a means of forcing Robin's hand before she met up with the Strawhats, she would probably laugh in his face. The threat of losing her Nakama is much more paralyzing; as Carter said, watching everything one holds dear turn to ash in a spectacular bonfire isn't going to be a very happy memory.

[Daz]

@Ivotas:

To be honest, without the protection of the Vice-Admirals I´d say that 5 of the (soon to be 8) Strawhats could each rape one of those ships alone. I wonder how people ignore the demonstration of strenght against objects, the protagonists have shown so far when it gets to the battleship discussion. Let´s list the five strong guys seperately:

**Well, I was basing my conclusion on the "If the straw hats were targeted by buster call, right now" scenario, in which Robin and Franky aren't targets, and admittedly, I removed everything from the fight but the remaining straw hats. This would mean that the Straw hats would be on land, and the Buster call ships at a considerable distance.

@Ivotas:

1. Luffy: He smashed Arlong Park when he was a lot weaker then he is now, he punched Crocodile through pure bedrock and caused parts of Arbana to collapse and his final blow against Enel was strong enough to knock that gigantic golden bell off the cloud. And that was all before he developed Gear 2nd. How can anybody doubt that after he defeats Lucci (which will probably give him a new power boost) he won´t be able to smash a gigantic ship if he releases all his anger against it? Sorry, but to me he definitely has the power to smash that ship already.

**The only one I could see working is storm. With Ono he needs to be above his target for the hit to connect, and in order to get there he'd have to use gomu gomu no Rocket = easy target for spikes / Devil fruit nets.
For Golden Rifle: Other than not having a golden ball for added effect it needs "charging up", again easy target. And besides, for it to have such an effect on the Buster call ships, it sure wasn't that impressive against Blueno.
As for storm, again it needs to be within range. I can't see why Gear 2 should help with this, because why would it make the Fuusen effect stronger?

@Ivotas:

2. Zoro: Not much to say actually. His swordsman skill may not be developed enough to beat Mihawk but I´m sure that after he already cut the Umi-Ressha cars, he could easily perform the same move Mihawk performed on Kriegs ship. It´s just larger in size but that can´t make for the difference here.

Well, that's a matter of opinion. Personally, I think it's too big a size difference between the Ships and some Saul-sized cars…Plus, if he could doo that, he'd litteraly would have bneen able to cut his way through EL.
Plus, How would he get to the ships?
But this is impossible to judge, actually, because Zoro goes from non-tekkai cutting to train cleaving i a few chapters.

@Ivotas:

3. Nico Robin: Her powers are surely enough to at least turn the firepower of one battleship against it self (if not against others even).

This is somewhat true. But it would require her to sprout dozens of (stababble) eyes on the targeted (extremely large)
ship, in order to locate the things she needed to manipulate. There'd be no way she could subdue the entire crew while monitoring the ship.

@Ivotas:

4. Franky: This works only if he is the one to join. Well, I think we´ve all seen what Coupe de Vent did to Dock 1. I doubt that he could do any lesser damage to a battleship.

**Nothing to say, but I agree with you there. He can only do it once, though.

@Ivotas:

5. Sanji: Well, this one is tough actually. I don´t have any good reference to show that he could do it. But I don´t see him falling behind the other 4 guys on that matter.

Just because Sanji is on par with the others in close-range combat doesn't make it possible for him to take down a galleon, just cause the others might be able to. Bringing down those ships requires smashing them to bits, or breaking through their hulls from below. Sanji isn't capable of either.******

[sabret00the]

@Battle:

So who wants to take bets on chapter 398?

(Full flashback chapter)

:molly:

I'll go with (B).

it will probably end with a colour spread of them standing together.

[Deicide]

I bet next chapter will have apartial flashback. Then we get back to Enies Lobby, and we will see Paulie, Tilestone and Lulu reaching their targets in order to help the Franky Family. Also, we will probably see the results of Robin's words to Spandam.

Then there will come 399, where we see ther Galley-lah's battles and the drawbridge will be lowered.

And by the end of chapter 400, the big final battle at Enies Lobby will finally begin.