Chapter 1058: New Emperors

[King Cannon]

@Razh I mean, show don't tell? Franky doesn't need to say what he learned exactly from Vegapunk's lab when his body and personal robot weapon already does the explaining.

Same for the others. Sanji learned new recipes? Great, there's a scene in PH where he shows one of the recipes. He doesn't need to explain shit.

As for Robin, she already stated Luffy doesn't care much about his father or the Will of D., so she just has Law as a confidant since he actually cares about that. We actually see a scene of them discussing what they know, so show don't tell again.

We know since the descent to FI that Luffy, Zoro, Usopp and Chopper all have short attention spans when others start talking complicated stuff, so it's a waste of in-story time to have them interact over what everybody else learned besides the basics.

[Razh]

@King-Cannon said in Chapter 1058: New Emperors:

@Razh I mean, show don't tell? Franky doesn't need to say what he learned exactly from Vegapunk's lab when his body and personal robot weapon already does the explaining.

Same for the others. Sanji learned new recipes? Great, there's a scene in PH where he shows one of the recipes. He doesn't need to explain shit.

As for Robin, she already stated Luffy doesn't care much about his father or the Will of D., so she just has Law as a confidant since he actually cares about that. We actually see a scene of them discussing what they know, so show don't tell again.

We know since the descent to FI that Luffy, Zoro, Usopp and Chopper all have short attention spans when others start talking complicated stuff, so it's a waste of in-story time to have them interact over what everybody else learned besides the basics.

Addressing some things would be nice, I guess? Just paint an awareness across the crew.

Basically, you're explaining my "lacking elements" complaint with "writing has always sucked in that regard" answer.

It's a waste? Sanji vs Page One wasn't a waste? Shapeshifting fox wasn't a waste? Green Bull flexing wasn't a waste? Plenty of waste to go around. What wouldn't be a waste is some quality time dedicated to main characters outside of battle.

[realtenchu]

@Razh said in Chapter 1058: New Emperors:

@King-Cannon said in Chapter 1058: New Emperors:

@Razh I mean, show don't tell? Franky doesn't need to say what he learned exactly from Vegapunk's lab when his body and personal robot weapon already does the explaining.

Same for the others. Sanji learned new recipes? Great, there's a scene in PH where he shows one of the recipes. He doesn't need to explain shit.

As for Robin, she already stated Luffy doesn't care much about his father or the Will of D., so she just has Law as a confidant since he actually cares about that. We actually see a scene of them discussing what they know, so show don't tell again.

We know since the descent to FI that Luffy, Zoro, Usopp and Chopper all have short attention spans when others start talking complicated stuff, so it's a waste of in-story time to have them interact over what everybody else learned besides the basics.

Addressing some things would be nice, I guess? Just paint an awareness across the crew.

Basically, you're explaining my "lacking elements" complaint with "writing has always sucked in that regard" answer.

It's a waste? Sanji vs Page One wasn't a waste? Shapeshifting fox wasn't a waste? Green Bull flexing wasn't a waste? Plenty of waste to go around. What wouldn't be a waste is some quality time dedicated to main characters outside of battle.

Like jinbei and Kawamatsu talking, and Luffy and Marco talking, etc.

I wanted to see Kawamatsu and Jinbei talking. I don’t think Kawamatsu has ever been to fishman island. The only red scabbard that I felt should have had a deeper story. Can you imagine if he had thought of taking hiyori to fishman island to hide there?. Kawamatsu also should have known that there was a giant city underwater.

[realtenchu]

Kawamatsu should have had a greater focus, that’s all I’m saying. Stupid kinemon, getting focus, when he was basically a clown.

[hitta7]

There have been all kinds of opportunities for intimate interactions like that throughout the whole series, Oda just doesn't do it or doesn't do it often. He barely even takes any time between arcs for the characters to collect themselves and reflect on what has happened. It wouldn't surprise me if we know exactly where the SHs are going in the next 2 chapters. Luffy just downed the strongest creature in the One Piece world and they probably won't even mention a word about it. Oda compartmentalizes One Piece way too much and it's to its detriment. It would be wonderful to see all of these intimate interactions that you guys are talking about but it's not going to happen.

[Tarek]

The chapter about Kawamatsu and Onimaru was one of the best of the arc. Them not being strawhats doesn't make it wasteful.

[wolfwood]

It's a cute story. Just feels very disconnected. It's also quite a lot of pages to solve a pretty small problem. Like the army needs swords, well what if we spend like three four chapters in total on a sword stealing monk who is also someones magical pet fox. It's a roundabout way to solve it and seemed based on little more than a whim to do something based on Japanland legends.

[Seafarer33]

@wolfwood wholeheartedly agreed.
Especially hurst if you compare with "Drat, I forgot to do Kaido's flashback. Nevermind, here is 2 pages worth of content lolz". Or any other plot left hanging after act 3 that would have benefitted from a little more screentime.

Wano at large suffers from this. Oda badly wanted to do his samurai story and I've got to hand it to him, the Wano setting is successful in that aspect. But, he dedicated so much panel time to it that I can't help but think he burned himself on bloated acts and we got the messed-up fights and rushed ending as a result.

[Rean]

@wolfwood said in Chapter 1058: New Emperors:

seemed based on little more than a whim to do something based on Japanland legends.

I mean Oda really did want to amalgamate as many of those old Japanese legends into Wano's tapestry, and in some measures he succeeds (Wano does really feel like a place with its own culture and history, distinct from almost every island), but when graded with the yardstick of what OP is largely being read for (an entertaining shonen adventure series starring likeable leads), it kinda flops in some areas too.

Part of me thinks this might be the last elaborate island arc we get for a while though and that may be why he over-indulged himself there.

[theackwardstation]

That's like complaining about Chouchou not leading up to anything relevant to everything else in Orange Town. The dog was nothing more than a sad sidestory, and an obvious reference to Hachiko. But it's still valuable because it's got heart and so it makes the arc more sympathetic.

That's the same thing with the magical fox. It's a cute/sad sidestory, with the upside of making us admire the drive and the will of the characters who spent 20 years in Wano to make the country succeed in this raid. The story of Onimaru and Kawamatsu (like a few other snippets from Wano residents) was one of the few things Oda did right in Wano's Act II, and it shouldn't have been subtracted from the story. That's the kind of stuff that we want to see from Oda.

And there's no reason to think that's what made Oda burn out and rush through some of the fights later. For all I know, reading from interviews, Oda just doesn't like drawing fights very much, and that's why they're almost never the highlight of the series (with a few exceptions). It is what it is.

[Ivotas]

@theackwardstation
Chouchou is completely different. Not only did Luffy bond strongly with him which made him actively go out to hunt down an officer of the Buggy pirates (unlike the Fox that had literally no emotional connection with any of the Strawhats. Heck, he didn't even reunite with Kawamatsu). Not to mention that Mayor Boodle who connected with the Strawhats was in the town for the sole reason to check how Chouchou is doing.

I get what you are trying to say, but the outline of both situations doesn't compare at all. If we would have gotten at least moment where Kawamatsu reunites with the Fox, there would have been some sort of pay off other than. Just getting weapons is a bit of a let down.

[theackwardstation]

@Ivotas there's an oddity in Wano which is that Oda doesn't care about making the SHs bond with anybody, and more importantly that the SHs are not main characters in Wano (with the exception of Luffy and Zoro)... and I regret this fact. But what happens instead is that these local characters become protagonists themselves of all kinds of subplots and sidestories, and especially build up the Scabbards (and the Kouzuki) as the emotional core of the arc. And with Onimaru we got one of these bits, which served a plot purpose (get weapons) while building up Kawamatsu as a complete character... and it's a good story in itself. I think it's false to say such a story doesn't have a purpose all things considered, and it does the same as Chouchou (and many other examples) even if it's not an identical structure.

Besides that, you argue that the problem of this sidestory is a lack of payoff because Onimaru and Kawamatsu didn't reunite... and that's a fair opinion. But that's clearly a decision made in Act II, when Onimaru for some reason I don't understand chose to hide his presence from Kawamatsu, and that was the end of the story there. It's up to interpretation why that happened, and perhaps there's some folklorical reasons for that, who knows. But I didn't feel like anything in the narrative was indicating a posterior resolution in Act III when Onimaru and Kawamatsu would finally reunite, but rather it was all just an odd ending to a completed sidestory in Act II.

[wolfwood]

Maybe it's nostalgia googles but i resonate so much more strongly and earnestly with shushu. It is obviously the same kind of story, but i'm take it or leave it with the fox while i'm bawling over the dog defending his masters store.

[Riddler]

Wait, didn't Kawamatsu and the fox reunite in chapter 1052?

[realtenchu]

@Riddler said in Chapter 1058: New Emperors:

Wait, didn't Kawamatsu and the fox reunite in chapter 1052?

They did but you gotta let people release their rant. It keeps the conversation going.

I wanted more Kawamatsu. I found it weird that a fishman would have trouble finding food. He could have gone into the wano tank, I’m sure there was a lot of fish there and it’s close by to get back to hiyori.

[Barkworm]

@Riddler They reunited but it was a tiny panel where Kawamatsu just said something like "I'm glad you're okay!". After the emotional flashback the two had, it felt totally lackluster.

[Zanze]

The chapter about Kawamatsu and the fox is low-key the best chapter of Wano. The last panels with the mysterious monk shapeshifting into the fox are so sweet and mindblowing when you don't already know the twist... And just the story of this defeated samurai and the fox he adopted spending months graverobbing in the snow felt very real to me for some reason.

I think it's fine that Onimaru didn't reappear in the raid. The character served his purpose, and he did reunite with Kawamatsu in the end.
I wouldn't even say those were wasted pages because I enjoyed the story. Too bad Kawamatsu didn't end up doing much in the raid.

[wolfwood]

I mean if i was reading samurai piece i'd wouldn't complain. Oda probably should've taken the option to do the whole George R R thing and make little side projects to scratch that do new stuff itch and get it out of the way

[Daz]

@Zanze said in Chapter 1058: New Emperors:

I think it's fine that Onimaru didn't reappear in the raid. The character served his purpose, and he did reunite with Kawamatsu in the end.

He did? When did that happen? I totally missed that.

Heh, remember when we all thought the Oden clone was that fox thing, because no one figured "Oden Ink Clone" was on the table

[Zanze]

@Daz said in Chapter 1058: New Emperors:

@Zanze said in Chapter 1058: New Emperors:

I think it's fine that Onimaru didn't reappear in the raid. The character served his purpose, and he did reunite with Kawamatsu in the end.

He did? When did that happen? I totally missed that.

They're together in those two panels where we learn that Izo and Ashura died

[Ivotas]

@theackwardstation said in Chapter 1058: New Emperors:

@Ivotas there's an oddity in Wano which is that Oda doesn't care about making the SHs bond with anybody, and more importantly that the SHs are not main characters in Wano (with the exception of Luffy and Zoro)... and I regret this fact. But what happens instead is that these local characters become protagonists themselves of all kinds of subplots and sidestories, and especially build up the Scabbards (and the Kouzuki) as the emotional core of the arc. And with Onimaru we got one of these bits, which served a plot purpose (get weapons) while building up Kawamatsu as a complete character... and it's a good story in itself. I think it's false to say such a story doesn't have a purpose all things considered, and it does the same as Chouchou (and many other examples) even if it's not an identical structure.

That is a good explenation but it's not a good reason. As you rightfully say, Wano has this unique structure and for many people it just doesn't work because One Piece has followed a different kind of approach until then. I'm not saying that the author isn't allowed to change things but you can't blame the reader for feeling at adds with it.

To bring another example for this feeling I'd like return to characters dying and there finally being stakes in the ongoing story. It's definitely something I wanted for a long time and something I welcome for being introduced at least. But for about two decades I have been conditionen to believe that X character has survived anyways, that the actual revelation doesn't create "I'm sad that X character died" emotional reaction but rather a meta commentary reaction along the lines of "wait, Oda actually killed X character off?". I'm sure it will sink in at some point, but right now I'm still in the "well, that feels kinda weird for One Piece" mindset. And I guess a lot of Wano creates a similar type of mindset for many readers.

Besides that, you argue that the problem of this sidestory is a lack of payoff because Onimaru and Kawamatsu didn't reunite... and that's a fair opinion. But that's clearly a decision made in Act II, when Onimaru for some reason I don't understand chose to hide his presence from Kawamatsu, and that was the end of the story there. It's up to interpretation why that happened, and perhaps there's some folklorical reasons for that, who knows. But I didn't feel like anything in the narrative was indicating a posterior resolution in Act III when Onimaru and Kawamatsu would finally reunite, but rather it was all just an odd ending to a completed sidestory in Act II.

It just felt kinda off and not really serving a purpose.

@Zanze said in Chapter 1058: New Emperors:

@Daz said in Chapter 1058: New Emperors:

@Zanze said in Chapter 1058: New Emperors:

I think it's fine that Onimaru didn't reappear in the raid. The character served his purpose, and he did reunite with Kawamatsu in the end.

He did? When did that happen? I totally missed that.

They're together in those two panels where we learn that Izo and Ashura died

Wait what, they did? Totally missed this. I stand corrected on there being no reunion. Still I would argue that it's been poorly handled because if the reunion is such a minor part that one could easily miss it, then Oda might aswell have dedicated a panel to this earlier in the actual reveal chapter. So many chapters later in an unnoticable panel feels like an lazy attempt along the lines of "oh yeah, there was that too. Well one throwaway panel should do the trick!"

[theackwardstation]

@Ivotas there are two different arguments: a) it didn't work or resonate with you; b) it didn't have a purpose in the story.

You can say "a" and that's fair and good because art is not meant to be anything but subjective appreciation -- so it didn't work for you. But saying "b" sounds off to me in this case, because the purpose is clear, both the emotional intent and the plot justification for this sidestory.

[Ivotas]

@theackwardstation
You're absolutely right. What I'm saying with b) is not that it didn't serve any purpose, I'm saying that for what it achieved it definitly went too long and there could have been different (elegant or less elegant ways) to get the invading troops equipped with weapons.

An elegant way would have been for Asura Doji to have collected them during all those twenty years. Would have been totally believable that a guy, who's been preparing this long and went under the moniker of 'Mountain Bandit' to have collected that many weapons in two decades. If a fox turned monk creature can do this by himself, I'm sure that the arguably strongest Samurai on the island with actual followers could have achieved that.

A less elegant approach would have been like what we've seen in Arabastas chapter 171, where a huge ship crashes into the town and magically provides the rebels with thousands of weapons. God I always hated that scene!

Point I'm making, there's rightfully many complaints that Wano has been giving too little or no focus at all for things that should have been there, while wasting precious time and space for something that could have been handled a lot quicker. And this is just one of those examples where it was not really necessary.

[theackwardstation]

@Ivotas Ashura Doji did his fair share in Act II too, although I'd have liked for his storyline to be more focused than how Oda did it.

At the end of Act I, we had the mission to find and recruit: a) Ashura Doji, b) Denjiro c) Kawamatsu. At the same time, "coincidentally", there were additional goals to: a) find Kaido's massion's blueprints, b) recruit an army, c) find weapons for the army.

Each of the missing Scabbards had gotten one (or more) of the three things the alliance was looking for. In this case, Onimaru was carrying the inheritted will of Kawamatsu, as we've learned. So yes, it make sense that we got this Onimaru sidestory in order to all the Scabbards accomplish something. And again, it's a cute story full of heart with the emotional purpose of make readers care... which worked for some and not for others.

What Oda could have been done instead was to have made less Scabbards, like 6 instead of 9+.

[Ivotas]

@theackwardstation
That's exactly the point I'm making. We didn't need to have it that way. Asura Doji and Denjiro did set up things their way for two decades. Kawamatsu on the other hand has been captured which lead to creating a new character, which accomplishes what Kawamatsu couldn't for the sole reason to get a silly barf joke. What have we laughed!

The story aswell have been written in a way, where Kawamatsu has been collecting the swords during the time span of 20 years. Again, less time wasted and no silly barf jokes.

[theackwardstation]

@Ivotas lol, I don't think Oda wrote things like this (with Kawamatsu jailed) only for the sake of a barf joke... and I also don't agree that creating Onimaru does any harm to Kawamatsu's character either. On the contrary, I think one of the best ways to build a character is through their relationships, and this sidestory with Onimaru is super good for Kawamatsu. The inheritted will of the fox because of Kawamatsu's kind heart and passion is effective, beautiful and surprising.

[realtenchu]

@Ivotas said in Chapter 1058: New Emperors:

@theackwardstation
That's exactly the point I'm making. We didn't need to have it that way. Asura Doji and Denjiro did set up things their way for two decades. Kawamatsu on the other hand has been captured which lead to creating a new character, which accomplishes what Kawamatsu couldn't for the sole reason to get a silly barf joke. What have we laughed!

The story aswell have been written in a way, where Kawamatsu has been collecting the swords during the time span of 20 years. Again, less time wasted and no silly barf jokes.

What did ashura doji set up?.
If I remember correctly his followers committed suicide at the 10 year mark and he gave up, said fuk Oden and went back to his old ways before he met Oden. He was even attacking poor civilians. He had a lot resentment against the akazaya and didn’t want to do any raid.

The one thing wrong I see with onimaru story is that he hid and didn’t reunite when Kawamatsu saw him at the bridge, I have no idea why Oda did that.

[Ivotas]

@theackwardstation said in Chapter 1058: New Emperors:

@Ivotas lol, I don't think Oda wrote things like this (with Kawamatsu jailed) only for the sake of a barf joke... and I also don't agree that creating Onimaru does any harm to Kawamatsu's character either. On the contrary, I think one of the best ways to build a character is through their relationships, and this sidestory with Onimaru is super good for Kawamatsu. The inheritted will of the fox because of Kawamatsu's kind heart and passion is effective, beautiful and surprising.

Thing is though we already had enough to set up with Kawamatsu with him being the one to take care of Hyori first. The fox is not the only way to accomplish that thing. If anything it's another waste of space to have to things for Kawamatsu in both Hyori and the fox. One is enough, especially, if the reunion get's dealt with in a throwaway panel.

@realtenchu said in Chapter 1058: New Emperors:

@Ivotas said in Chapter 1058: New Emperors:

@theackwardstation
That's exactly the point I'm making. We didn't need to have it that way. Asura Doji and Denjiro did set up things their way for two decades. Kawamatsu on the other hand has been captured which lead to creating a new character, which accomplishes what Kawamatsu couldn't for the sole reason to get a silly barf joke. What have we laughed!

The story aswell have been written in a way, where Kawamatsu has been collecting the swords during the time span of 20 years. Again, less time wasted and no silly barf jokes.

What did ashura doji set up?.
If I remember correctly his followers committed suicide at the 10 year mark and he gave up, said fuk Oden and went back to his old ways before he met Oden. He was even attacking poor civilians. He had a lot resentment against the akazaya and didn’t want to do any raid.

The one thing wrong I see with onimaru story is that he hid and didn’t reunite when Kawamatsu saw him at the bridge, I have no idea why Oda did that.

Didn't Asura also gather people that are part of the raid? I'm not saying it has been handled elegantly, with all the mountain bandid stuff that have been attacking villagers. But wasn't there this surprise reveal that they were still waiting for the promised day? Yes, many of his followers went on a suicide mission at the 10 year mark but not all of them. Denjiro brought only his Yakuza and the imprisoned samurai. But the invading army already consisted of quite a number of people before that. And those were not only minks and Strawhats and some random villagers. I was sure that there were plenty of Asura's people amongst them too.

Also wasn't it Asura who got the plans of Onigashima in the first place? Furthermore, unless I'm utterly mistaken, wasn't it him that provided the ships, that needed to be made battle ready for the invasion?

But I agree with the overall outlook, that it wasn't handled well at all. Asura was shown to be a complete asshole who turned their back on the mission until, surprise reveal, "I actually do care for everyone and I have been waiting for you. It only was really really painful".

I mean, what can I even say at this point, we're pretty much arguing that Wano was lackluster by throwing even more aspects in at how it was lackluster. If anything this even a further point to show actually spend time to handle one of the Red Scabbards well than a fox that doesn't need to be there in the first place.

[realtenchu]

@Ivotas said in Chapter 1058: New Emperors:

@theackwardstation said in Chapter 1058: New Emperors:

@Ivotas lol, I don't think Oda wrote things like this (with Kawamatsu jailed) only for the sake of a barf joke... and I also don't agree that creating Onimaru does any harm to Kawamatsu's character either. On the contrary, I think one of the best ways to build a character is through their relationships, and this sidestory with Onimaru is super good for Kawamatsu. The inheritted will of the fox because of Kawamatsu's kind heart and passion is effective, beautiful and surprising.

Thing is though we already had enough to set up with Kawamatsu with him being the one to take care of Hyori first. The fox is not the only way to accomplish that thing. If anything it's another waste of space to have to things for Kawamatsu in both Hyori and the fox. One is enough, especially, if the reunion get's dealt with in a throwaway panel.

@realtenchu said in Chapter 1058: New Emperors:

@Ivotas said in Chapter 1058: New Emperors:

@theackwardstation
That's exactly the point I'm making. We didn't need to have it that way. Asura Doji and Denjiro did set up things their way for two decades. Kawamatsu on the other hand has been captured which lead to creating a new character, which accomplishes what Kawamatsu couldn't for the sole reason to get a silly barf joke. What have we laughed!

The story aswell have been written in a way, where Kawamatsu has been collecting the swords during the time span of 20 years. Again, less time wasted and no silly barf jokes.

What did ashura doji set up?.
If I remember correctly his followers committed suicide at the 10 year mark and he gave up, said fuk Oden and went back to his old ways before he met Oden. He was even attacking poor civilians. He had a lot resentment against the akazaya and didn’t want to do any raid.

The one thing wrong I see with onimaru story is that he hid and didn’t reunite when Kawamatsu saw him at the bridge, I have no idea why Oda did that.

Didn't Asura also gather people that are part of the raid? I'm not saying it has been handled elegantly, with all the mountain bandid stuff that have been attacking villagers. But wasn't there this surprise reveal that they were still waiting for the promised day? Yes, many of his followers went on a suicide mission at the 10 year mark but not all of them. Denjiro brought only his Yakuza and the imprisoned samurai. But the invading army already consisted of quite a number of people before that. And those were not only minks and Strawhats and some random villagers. I was sure that there were plenty of Asura's people amongst them too.

Also wasn't it Asura who got the plans of Onigashima in the first place? Furthermore, unless I'm utterly mistaken, wasn't it him that provided the ships, that needed to be made battle ready for the invasion?

But I agree with the overall outlook, that it wasn't handled well at all. Asura was shown to be a complete asshole who turned their back on the mission until, surprise reveal, "I actually do care for everyone and I have been waiting for you. It only was really really painful".

I mean, what can I even say at this point, we're pretty much arguing that Wano was lackluster by throwing even more aspects in at how it was lackluster. If anything this even a further point to show actually spend time to handle one of the Red Scabbards well than a fox that doesn't need to be there in the first place.

I don’t remember well but I think most of the raid people were from Udon and others brought by the yakuzas. I do believe that ashura provided the Map of onigashima.

In any case everything is subjective, people like what the like. I wanted more Kawamatsu but with more rational. Why couldn’t Kawamatsu and jinbei sit down and talk fish stuff.

[Zanze]

In the end that's the main problem about Wano, the Scabbards are simultaneously the best and the worst thing about it.

The best because they're a lot more developed than your average arc side characters, and most of their backstories are just cool (Kawamatsu's past with the Fox, Ashura giving up hope and going back to being a bandit, Denjiro literally getting his face disfigured by rage and infiltrating Orochi's inner circle, Kin'emon becoming Momo's adoptive father, Kanjuro's betrayal...), it's a cool group and their fight with Kaido was spectacular.

On the other hand most of them didn't have particularly amazing resolutions (Ashura dying kinda randomly, the Kanjuro fight being offscreened and Denjiro disappearing for a ton of time and not even getting his face back I think are the worst offenders - not to mention Kiku not even getting to mourn Izo's death) despite the huge amount of panel time they "stole" from the Straw Hats...
And also, every single one of them getting back up after getting destroyed by Kaido just killed any sense of tension during Onigashima.
So, eh.

Kin'emon though was consistently amazing in this arc. He got a ton of dramatic scenes and badass lines, and the gags about his absent-mindedness were hilarious. So at least the main Scabbard was totally nailed imo.
The others at least were interesting characters but they also caused a lot of wonkiness...

[last-exit-to-laughtale]

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