Chapter 867: Happy Birthday
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lmfao huehue
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Wait, if you simply can eat the user to get their devil fruits, then there would be a weird phenomenon of seakings sinking whenever they manage to digest a devil fruit user.
The thought is entertaining.
There may very well be, and no one to witness it anyway since they'd end up at the bottom of the abyss. The rumoured Sea King Graveyard, where they wait to die of starvation or old age. Like Jack. -
Now watch Carmel coming out of Big Mom's body in soul form. I wouldn't put it past her that she pulled a soul transfer in the last minute before she got esten.
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even in that case the entire thing would have happened way too fast,we already saw how fast she eats from the previous chapter…reach the place,seize everyone and leave while she finished a single crouquembouche it's impossible for anyone that isn't named kizaru
--- Update From New Post Merge ---
even if that's the case they would just sink,die of hunger and the fruit will come back later somewhere else in some random fruit.
There's no way Kizaru is old enough to have been able to be a marine when BM was 6 years old.
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The only reason I am not completely buying it is because of the kids. If it was just Carmel, ok, but kids seem to be off-limits to Oda. I can't see him killing them in such a brutal manner like this.
Let's see how this scene could make sense if Oda is deceiving us:
- Carmel sold Linlin and wanted it to be her last shipment. If it was the last, it makes sense she would get rid of the other kids as well.
- For reasons of drama, it would make sense if Linlin's upcoming birthday was chosen as the day of her shipment. Carmel already recognized Linlin was absurdly strong (maybe a future fleet admiral, according to her), so it would make sense if she drugged her.
- as in a trance, but could also be because there was sleeping drugs in the croquembouche.
- The Marine came and took the other kids.
- But if Linlin was asleep, why they failed to get her? Where is Carmel if her body is nowhere to be seen but her clothes are? She throwing them away so she could start a new life doesn't fit, because Linlin got her DF powers at some point, so she must have died. If she was killed by the marines, the crime scene (no body but clothes) doesn't make sense.
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She ate them all, period.
It's not just all the stuff scattered on the ground and the stains of blood. The panels that show BM eating have sfx of people screams.
Cannibalism in its most subtle expression.
Screams could be because of them (the kids) being taken away by strangers. Also, I think I only saw one bloodstain on the ground, so it doesn't quite look like a massacre. Shouldn't rule out the possibility that Oda is playing us, as it wouldn't be the first time.
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There's no way Kizaru is old enough to have been able to be a marine when BM was 6 years old.
Correct. Kizaru is 58 y/o. This flashback happened some 60 years ago. He wasn't even born yet.
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She ate them all, period.
It's not just all the stuff scattered on the ground and the stains of blood. The panels that show BM eating have sfx of people screams.
Cannibalism in its most subtle expression.
We already saw at least 2 of those kids attending the present ceremony. So at least she didn't eat everyone. And let's remember, Oda already teased us with her cannibalism once, but it turned out it was just homies.
If she ate some people, there should have been blood on her own body as well.Idk, looks obvious Pudding redactedaltered some of her memory. I don't see how that memory altering gimmick couldn't be an important part of the puzzle, and we're at the climax of the arc. If not now, when?
That "Gevurah" term Caramel used originats from Kabalism. It represents the soul power to restrain one's kindness when the recepient is judged unworthy of it. Or something like that. I remember it from Psyren. One of the characters had a same name for the ability.
Now I wonder even more where the f Caramel came from, and why choose that way of life even during youth.
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I'm in the "Pudding changed BM's memory" camp.
My guess is that what actually happened (e.g. the CP came to take the children & Carmel's true color was exposed etc.) was too painful for her that she asked Pudding to remove the memory.
This means that there may be a whole lot of things that happened AFTER she finished eating, but as all memories relating to such events were removed, Linlin only remembers eating the sweets and finding out afterward that everyone disappeared.
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Remember those early theories about The Big Mom Pirates being allies after this? OR tha Big Mom had some kind of good side? Oda certainy put most of that to bed.
Idk why some of us are in denial here. We actually see Caramels tattered clothing on the ground
(among other things bitten and bloody ) and 20 years later we know Linlin has her fruit. This is not rocket science.She ate them all, Oda was just very subtle-yet-not-so-subtle in how he portrayed it.
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Idk, looks obvious Pudding redactedaltered some of her memory. I don't see how that memory altering gimmick couldn't be an important part of the puzzle, and we're at the climax of the arc. If not now, when?
Pudding is very young, though, and Linlin's whole personality reflects the events in the flashback including being left behind by everyone at the tea party (thus she not allowing anyone to refuse her invitation regardless of the reason). If Pudding messed with those memories, that would be on a +50yo Linlin (too late for it to affect her personality to this extent).
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Correct. Kizaru is 58 y/o. This flashback happened some 60 years ago. He wasn't even born yet.
Lol I didn't know that. I was thinking more of how it was stated that he joined the marines at age 26. Which would make him at least 90 years old today, which seems proposterous.
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I'm in the "Pudding changed BM's memory" camp.
My guess is that what actually happened (e.g. the CP came to take the children & Carmel's true color was exposed etc.) was too painful for her that she asked Pudding to remove the memory.
This means that there may be a whole lot of things that happened AFTER she finished eating, but as all memories relating to such events were removed, Linlin only remembers eating the sweets and finding out afterward that everyone disappeared.
that would be bad storytlelling on oda's part because we also got the part regarding the real mother caramel, and that's something that can't be present in big mom's memories,either real or tampered, since in that case she wouldn't miss carmel
so it's either all facts or oda mixed facts and fiction just for the sake of deception,which would be bad storytelling since you are basically cheating the audience. -
@.access:
The only reason I am not completely buying it is because of the kids. If it was just Carmel, ok, but kids seem to be off-limits to Oda. I can't see him killing them in such a brutal manner like this.
Let's see how this scene could make sense if Oda is deceiving us:
- Carmel sold Linlin and wanted it to be her last shipment. If it was the last, it makes sense she would get rid of the other kids as well.
- For reasons of drama, it would make sense if Linlin's upcoming birthday was chosen as the day of her shipment. Carmel already recognized Linlin was absurdly strong (maybe a future fleet admiral, according to her), so it would make sense if she drugged her.
- as in a trance, but could also be because there was sleeping drugs in the croquembouche.
- The Marine came and took the other kids.
- But if Linlin was asleep, why they failed to get her? Where is Carmel if her body is nowhere to be seen but her clothes are? She throwing them away so she could start a new life doesn't fit, because Linlin got her DF powers at some point, so she must have died. If she was killed by the marines, the crime scene (no body but clothes) doesn't make sense.
Dude, Literally 90% of the One Piece characters had shitty to downright terrible childhoods. ODa is not afraid to get dark , especially where flashbacks are concerned. Are we already forgetting Law's brutal tale?
I honestly think some of you just weren't ready for something like this in OP. The shell shock from all of this is interesting to say the least.
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that would be bad storytlelling on oda's part because we also got the part regarding the real mother caramel, and that's something that can't be present in big mom's memories,either real or tampered, since in that case she wouldn't miss carmel
so it's either all facts or oda mixed facts and fiction just for the sake of deception,which would be bad storytelling since you are basically cheating the audience.I think he did the same thing with Rebecca's flashback though. First he shows us the version with no Kyros in it. Then later we were shown another flashback of the same scenes but with Kyros presented.
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Pound was lying Big Mom didn't eat the soru soru no mi. She ATE the previous df user!!!! That was definitely different!
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Dude, Literally 90% of the One Piece characters had shitty to downright terrible childhoods. ODa is not afraid to get dark , especially where flashbacks are concerned. Are we already forgetting Law's brutal tale?
I honestly think some of you just weren't ready for something like this in OP. The shell shock from all of this is interesting to say the least.
funny thing is,we all laughed when it was revealed that big mom's supposed cannibalism in that scene back in fishman island ended up just her eating some sentient food…and then,BAM,actual cannibalism ,by a child,on his own foster mother and sibling/like friends.enjoy.
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Reminds me of tales of the crypt !
We already saw at least 2 of those kids attending the present ceremony. So at least she didn't eat everyone. And let's remember, Oda already teased us with her cannibalism once, but it turned out it was just homies.
And why does she create homies that she then eats ? Because it's something from her past, a subconscious behavior.
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She ate them all, period.
It's not just all the stuff scattered on the ground and the stains of blood. The panels that show BM eating have sfx of people screams.
Cannibalism in its most subtle expression.
Are the screams the characters all around in that panel where BM screams "yummy!"? It obviously doesn't say
anything like that in plain English. I wouldn't know myself. -
We already saw at least 2 of those kids attending the present ceremony. So at least she didn't eat everyone. And let's remember, Oda already teased us with her cannibalism once, but it turned out it was just homies.
If she ate some people, there should have been blood on her own body as well.Idk, looks obvious Pudding redactedaltered some of her memory. I don't see how that memory altering gimmick couldn't be an important part of the puzzle, and we're at the climax of the arc. If not now, when?
That "Gevurah" term Caramel used originats from Kabalism. It represents the soul power to restrain one's kindness when the recepient is judged unworthy of it. Or something like that. I remember it from Psyren. One of the characters had a same name for the ability.
Now I wonder even more where the f Caramel came from, and why choose that way of life even during youth.
I'd love see where at least two of these kids are in the present Wedding/Tea party?
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Screams could be because of them (the kids) being taken away by strangers. Also, I think I only saw one bloodstain on the ground, so it doesn't quite look like a massacre. Shouldn't rule out the possibility that Oda is playing us, as it wouldn't be the first time.
I surely doesn't rule out that possibility, given how ambiguous things are. But at the very least this is the only way Carmel's sudden disappearance and Linlin aciqiring her DF ability can be explained.
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Even lilinn's friends always scream "kyahh.. linlin gonna kill us".. Well, they can't scream anymore..
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I think he did the same thing with Rebecca's flashback though. First he shows us the version with no Kyros in it. Then later we were shown another flashback of the same scenes but with Kyros presented.
but in that case we saw nothing that couldn't have been in rebecca's mind.that's the point
if this was only about what big mom remembers,of course it could be the whole "unreliable narrator" shtick and thus something could have not gone as we saw..BUT, we also saw the real face of mother carmel,something that big mom has never knew about…this makes the entire thing real...we are not seeing the fact through big mom anymore.
the alternative is a mix of big mom's memories and real facts,but like i said,it would be bad storytelling since you are supposed to try to deceive the audience,but not to cheat and change rules and point of view for the sole sake of deception.that's what separates the good storyteller from the hack...surprise your audience is good,but it hads to be fair,the pieces must have been on the chessboard the whole time and you must have played by the rules.
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Reminds me of tales of the crypt !
And why does she create homies that she then eats ? Because it's something from her past, a subconscious behavior.
She eats them because they are sweets, not because they can talk. It's already established in her flashback that she's a sugar junkie.
But it does seem like she never got over the concept of a tea party.
I wonder if each of her parties ends up with someone getting killed.
Sent from my D5803 using Tapatalk
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We already saw at least 2 of those kids attending the present ceremony. So at least she didn't eat everyone. And let's remember, Oda already teased us with her cannibalism once, but it turned out it was just homies.
If she ate some people, there should have been blood on her own body as well.http://readms.net/r/one_piece/867/4309/15
Look at the scale here in the top panel. She's large enough that she could have eaten them in one bite, even Mother Caramel. Most of the blood would have been mixed in with the cream on her hands and face, which she immediately licked off.
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We already saw at least 2 of those kids attending the present ceremony. So at least she didn't eat everyone. And let's remember, Oda already teased us with her cannibalism once, but it turned out it was just homies.
they are not those children,those children would have been older than big mom in the present day,those,if i got who you mean,are waaay younger than that.
If she ate some people, there should have been blood on her own body as well.
not necessarely,for the same reason you don't stain your clothes every time you have lunch..is she ate them whole there's no reason for blood to be on her body,remember that for her all those children were snack-sized
Idk, looks obvious Pudding redactedaltered some of her memory. I don't see how that memory altering gimmick couldn't be an important part of the puzzle, and we're at the climax of the arc. If not now, when?
that would be bad storytlelling on oda's part because we also got the part regarding the real mother caramel, and that's something that can't be present in big mom's memories,either real or tampered, since in that case she wouldn't miss carmel
so it's either all facts or oda mixed facts and fiction just for the sake of deception,which would be bad storytelling since you are basically cheating the audience. -
@.access:
Pudding is very young, though, and Linlin's whole personality reflects the events in the flashback including being left behind by everyone at the tea party (thus she not allowing anyone to refuse her invitation regardless of the reason). If Pudding messed with those memories, that would be on a +50yo Linlin (too late for it to affect her personality to this extent).
We can't compare her personality with anything, since we only know her from the present. Pudding might have deleted a moment that helped define BM's adult self.
Sent from my D5803 using Tapatalk
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So carmel is a human trafficker? fuck me sideways
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I think its clear as day what happened. Her having the Devil Fruit is the main deal breaker for me, The lamb orphanage seemingly located on the same Island(s) that totland and whole cake are located. Mom been in the same place since her family "vanished" all those years ago.
Also consider this , if they were just taken or wiped out by the Marines and cp9, why take everything except the prize? You can say they drugged BM so she wouldn't remember , but we can't have it both ways either she was tampered with back then or she wasn't tampered with at all because as it stands what benefit would a child Pudding have of erasing how some old lady from her Mom's past disappeared? And if she did a memory wipe, it's probably because she realized at some point that she ate them. lol
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that's what separates the good storyteller from the hack…surprise your audience is good,but it hads to be fair,the pieces must have been on the chessboard the whole time and you must have played by the rules.
What rules? Oda comes up with new rules as story goes on. Doflamingo's decapitation was a total cheat, and everything that string clone represented. Pudding being evil was a recent trick as well. Took a few chapters until he actually revealed what she said to Luffy and Nami while they were prisoners.
As far as how One Piece works, it's ridiculous to suggest that it simply isn't possible that something other than cannibalism could have happened.
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And why does she create homies that she then eats ? Because it's something from her past, a subconscious behavior.
Remember that most of the homies are born randomly as soul fragments scatter throughout the land.
Honestly, I can't really get an opinion of this chapter. There's definitely something more at play than just this, because if the story is just face-value "Big Mom ate Carmel" then Carmel being a human trafficker was extremely pointless.
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Been so long since I posted.. anyway. I just wanted to say that Big Mom eating them sounds like a pretty huge red herring. I can see this going a multitude of different ways. The SFX of people screaming for example could be of the children while being kidnapped by CP something. I don't like the certainty you all speak with despite this being one piece and a lot of stuff not happening as we imagine. How many of you thought that Caramel could be a slave trader?
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What's the Going Merry doing on top of those houses ?
http://mangafox.me/manga/one_piece/vTBD/c867/9.html -
Did anyone else think Attack on Titan after seeing Linlin destroying a village, take down a fully grown giant, and devour a group of people whole?
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Big Mom eating Mother Caramel and inheriting the Soul Soul fruit raises an interesting question. Can anyone do that? If an animal were to eat a random devil fruit, and someone killed and ate said animal, would they acquire the devil fruit the animal ate? It's something that needs to be elaborated on.
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What rules? Oda comes up with new rules as story goes on. Doflamingo's decapitation was a total cheat, and everything that string clone represented. Pudding being evil was a recent trick as well. Took a few chapters until he actually revealed what she said to Luffy and Nami while they were prisoners.
As far as how One Piece works, it's ridiculous to suggest that it simply isn't possible that something other than cannibalism could have happened.
never said that deception can't or shouldn't happen,what i said is that the rules of storytelling dictates that you must establish a point of view of a given narration inside your story and what you see must be consistent with it.
in this flashback we saw big mom's past,and that can be considered from her point of view,but then we get to see mother carmel talking with the cp0, and that's clearly outside of what big mom's remembers,so this flashback can't be from her point of view, she never knew carmel was a slaver, she still calls her mother, so the "rules" says that this is from a omnipotent narator,someone that can see everyone everywhere,and said omnipotent narrator can't be touched by the powers of one of the fictional characters in the story,it's omnipotent for a reason.of coruse,this being narration if the author wants everything can happen,but again,that's what distinguishes the good narrator from the hack, and despite the numerous amount of plotholes in this arc,i still respect oda enough to think he is not a hack.
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@Kaido:
because if the story is just face-value "Big Mom ate Carmel" then Carmel being a human trafficker was extremely pointless.
The reveal could be just to set her up for some punishment. Having the good nun who took care of the world being eaten alive could leave a bad taste in the reader's mouth, but once she was revealed as a child trafficker it feels like she deserved it.
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never said that deception can't or shouldn't happen,what i said is that the rules of storytelling dictates that you must establish a point of view of a given narration inside your story and what you see must be consistent with it.
in this flashback we saw big mom's past,and that can be considered from her point of view,but then we get to see mother carmel talking with the cp0, and that's clearly outside of what big mom's remembers,so this flashback can't be from her point of view, she never knew carmel was a slaver, she still calls her mother, so the "rules" says that this is from a omnipotent narator,someone that can see everyone everywhere,and said omnipotent narrator can't be touched by the powers of one of the fictional characters in the story,it's omnipotent for a reason.of coruse,this being narration if the author wants everything can happen,but again,that's what distinguishes the good narrator from the hack, and despite the numerous amount of plotholes in this arc,i still respect oda enough to think he is not a hack.
Ok, alright then. I guess we will just simply disagree a bit on the matter of what seems to have happened :)
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We do know the Strawhats, etc went all the way to Totland to kill Big Mom and steal the poneglyph.
But can you imagine the real final boss in this arc ends up being…
! Mother Carmel herself?
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@NER:
Been so long since I posted.. anyway. I just wanted to say that Big Mom eating them sounds like a pretty huge red herring. I can see this going a multitude of different ways. The SFX of people screaming for example could be of the children while being kidnapped by CP something. I don't like the certainty you all speak with despite this being one piece and a lot of stuff not happening as we imagine. How many of you thought that Caramel could be a slave trader?
if you can make all the pieces of the puzzle fit in a different way that makes sense and doesn't have any plothole in it,be my guest
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@Fire Fist:
Big Mom eating Mother Caramel and inheriting the Soul Soul fruit raises an interesting question. Can anyone do that? If an animal were to eat a random devil fruit, and someone killed and ate said animal, would they acquire the devil fruit the animal ate? It's something that needs to be elaborated on.
I think that's impossible. As we know, at the moment of death, the devil fruit essence migrates to a nearest fruit of, presumably, the same type.
What difference would it make if another person was biting, stabbing or shooting the devil fruit user at the time of death?
Furthermore, apart from Pudding possibly tampering with memories, there's no way CP0 appeared for a short cammeo. Those guys aren't honorable people, and they answer to no one. They don't need to honor any agreements, especially while dealing with an underworld broker who they can easilly eliminate.
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Good God, this is dark
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never said that deception can't or shouldn't happen,what i said is that the rules of storytelling dictates that you must establish a point of view of a given narration inside your story and what you see must be consistent with it.
in this flashback we saw big mom's past,and that can be considered from her point of view,but then we get to see mother carmel talking with the cp0, and that's clearly outside of what big mom's remembers,so this flashback can't be from her point of view, she never knew carmel was a slaver, she still calls her mother, so the "rules" says that this is from a omnipotent narator,someone that can see everyone everywhere,and said omnipotent narrator can't be touched by the powers of one of the fictional characters in the story,it's omnipotent for a reason.of coruse,this being narration if the author wants everything can happen,but again,that's what distinguishes the good narrator from the hack, and despite the numerous amount of plotholes in this arc,i still respect oda enough to think he is not a hack.
I wouldn't say the arc has plotholes, I would say there were quite a few plot conveniences though. In regards to the flashback's point of view, the fact that we have an omniscient narrator doesn't mean that he has told us all there is to know about said story. Plus, we have the Fishman Island flashback as an example. Here we have a flashback told by Jinbe directly, but there are scenes from Otohime's life in the palace where Jinbe was not directly present. Which contradicts the narrator's perspective and potential knowledge on the facts. I still think it's a red herring and we will get a full explanation of how it actually went down, and Pudding's power still has to come into play. It's too perfectly set up for Oda not to do it. He even included a scene of Mama saying "Do not intrude upon my memories" or something like that. But if it doesn't happen, I'd say it's one of the most gruesome and shocking scenes I've read in a typical shonen manga.
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they are not those children,those children would have been older than big mom in the present day,those,if i got who you mean,are waaay younger than that.
The prince and the panda girl? The prince's age can't really be accurately guessed. Panda girl does look like she's younger than she should be. But stranger things have happened. Oda doesn't put those kind of hints for nothing.
I honestly don't get how you or anyone else can be so convinced that things happened in a certain way when there's a history of Oda leading us on the wrong track. And not always skillfully. Meant no insult, of course.
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I think that's impossible. As we know, at the moment of death, the devil fruit essence migrates to a nearest fruit of, presumably, the same type.
What difference would it make if another person was biting, stabbing or shooting the devil fruit user at the time of death?
Furthermore, apart from Pudding possibly tampering with memories, there's no way CP0 appeared for a short cammeo. Those guys aren't honorable people, and they answer to no one. They don't need to honor any agreements, especially while dealing with an underworld broker who they can easilly eliminate.
They showed up for brief cameos in Dressrosa, Oda has also used them in flashbacks just to do shady shit before as well while they weren't necessarily the center focus or threat.
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For 2 chapters of a flashback that perfectly wrapped up, it's pretty much implied she ate everyone. It seems like it was set up so that the whole transfer of Carmel's DF power will be addressed one way or another…
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I see some people still need to cope with what has just transpired. Just saying don't be surprised if there's never "Aha" moment for this situation you're all hoping for. This one seems pretty cut and dry by Oda standards.
For 2 chapters of a flashback that perfectly wrapped up, it's pretty much implied she ate everyone. It seems like it was set up so that the whole transfer of Carmel's DF power will be addressed one way or another...
Bingo
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So I guess we're pulling the plug on maskkid being Damask or Killer or whover the hell else people were guessing her grew up to be last week.
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I wouldn't say the arc has plotholes, I would say there were quite a few plot conveniences though. In regards to the flashback's point of view, the fact that we have an omniscient narrator doesn't mean that he has told us all there is to know about said story. Plus, we have the Fishman Island flashback as an example. Here we have a flashback told by Jinbe directly, but there are scenes from Otohime's life in the palace where Jinbe was not directly present. Which contradicts the narrator's perspective and potential knowledge on the facts. I still think it's a red herring and we will get a full explanation of how it actually went down, and Pudding's power still has to come into play. It's too perfectly set up for Oda not to do it. He even included a scene of Mama saying "Do not intrude upon my memories" or something like that. But if it doesn't happen, I'd say it's one of the most gruesome and shocking scenes I've read in a typical shonen manga.
well,from my point of view this arc has very big plotholes,as "things that don't make a lick of sense and/or a given characters has no reason to do", but i'm not gonna start again listing them :P
about the narrator, a story can start from an in-story narrator and turn back into an omniscent one..what it can't do it's turn back to being an unreliable one. Once you free the narration from the shackles of one character's point of view,you can't change it back, not without informing the reader first in some wayI personally don't think that pudding's fruit will play an important role at all…but i have been dead wrong about this arc multiple times.
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http://i.imgur.com/69mGPWU.png
So I guess we're pulling the plug on maskkid being Damask or Killer or whover the hell else people were guessing her grew up to be last week.
Those kids would be near 70 years old anyway.