Blue had a lovely moment with Obotchaman, though. Full of romantic tension. So cute!
Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly
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Wow, I didn't even remember he was part of the Penguin Village crossover.
I totally remembered the crossover, but I didn't remember the villain was any part of it.
At all.
He left no impression despite being in the story for a fair ammount of time.
He was just sort of a tough grunt to fill time… vastly overshadowed immediately by Tao who could kill with his tongue and fly by throwing logs and jumping onto them and who actually killed a guy and beat Goku and super fast climbed that tower and then returned later with a brother and as a cyborg and as part of Tien's arc.
Now, had Tao been named "General Green" he might have been just as forgettable, I dunno.
--- Update From New Post Merge ---
Well that's just ridiculous. Even Dragonball proper wasn't that. It had the android arc which was dull and broody, and the Buu arc which a lot of people hate because it was fun... but everyone agrees the Saiyan/Namek stuff was the high point.
(And opinions on non-Z Dragonball will be mixed wildly depending on how someone actually experienced it.)
The upseting part is when they did the slice of life episodes they did fine. They know how to do filler. Its whenever they did ongoing "epics" and tried to have stakes they just sort of... didn't manage at all.
Doesn't help that this stupid tournament lasted an entire freaking year. when the longest tournaments of the the classic series were 20 episodes tops.
Have you ever heard of mistarefusions dragonball dissection he's breaking down each arc into parts and of the 10 arcs he had RR 10, Saiyan 9 and the the 3 arcs afterward as some order of 5,3 and 1.
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I'm going to be surprised if Frieza makes it out of there in tact. The Gods who aren't even sitting close are commenting on the "heat" and there's mini galaxies popping up…
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Except for Yamcha and Tien and Buu and Mr. Satan and any of the girls other than 18 and…
We actually did have episodes dedicated to Yamcha (70) and Mr. Satan (15).
Gohan's two-parter actually did give Videl some cool character moments.
Krillin, Gohan and Hit actually had whole episodes dedicated to them. Maybe some people don't like them, but it's a considerable improvement when comparing character focus in early Super. The Mr. Satan episode is probably my highlight for early Super, but other than that most of it was all Goku and Vegeta, which I actually don't mind, but was the worst in those arcs.
18 and 17 basically had nothing before the ToP. Beerus has a really cool character arc and he's not even fighting. I'm okay with Bulma being kept to the Shenlong episode and Bra episode because she had a lot of time during the FT arc. Buu actually had a fight.
Could there have been a lot more? Of course! If it were my doing, I would redo everything with Tenshinhan - relate his episode to Launch and make use of his techniques more during the ToP. Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Goten and Trunks especially would be very nice to get more actually well-written focus on. The Jelly Vegeta stuff could've been something, Tenshinhan's episodes could've been something, but they always had the weakest writers.
I'd probably give more significant wins to Gohan, Krillin and Piccolo. But most of the side cast aren't non-entities anymore and I'm very happy about that. Dunno, maybe they'll somehow undo it in the last few episodes, it's DB, but most of the characters were left off at a point where more could be done with them, rather than just plain tossing them aside. There's a difference between a loss and tossing a character aside, after all.
There's a lot of room to do stuff with the characters now and I really do hope Super'll come back with a better schedule/with Toei getting their shit together.
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I just checked. It's filler.
Make that just one of the times Toei really got it right.
Um… The explanation they gave for why Goku became so much stronger when the Sage Water was actually just regular water, was that he'd grown stronger simply by climbing the tower and battling Karin. Having Tao Paipai also climb the tower should then mean that he, too, would have gotten stronger. Maybe not as strong as Goku being that Goku climbed it twice on top of battling Karin, but still, that whole "Tao climbing the tower" thing just struck me as being contradictory nonsense.
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We actually did have episodes dedicated to Yamcha (70) and Mr. Satan (15).
Yes. A episode. Followed later by the joke about Yamcha being he thinks he'll be invited to the tournament.
Random fourth tier background fighters in the tournament got more screentime in the last year than Yamcha got in the whole series.
Um… The explanation they gave for why Goku became so much stronger when the Sage Water was actually just regular water, was that he'd grown stronger simply by climbing the tower and battling Karin. Having Tao Paipai also climb the tower should then mean that he, too, would have gotten stronger. Maybe not as strong as Goku being that Goku climbed it twice on top of battling Karin, but still, that whole "Tao climbing the tower" thing just struck me as being contradictory nonsense.
It works just fine. Goku had to struggle to climb the tower, so it was training. Tao had no trouble at all so it didn't train him any.
Like if they were both weight lifters and they started with Goku lifting 30 pound weights and Tao lifting 100. And over the course of a couple days Goku works up to lifting 105 pounds. Tao using the same weights as Goku isn't going to make him much stronger because he started ahead.
Similarly, later down the road, post-Raditz Goku (strongest man in the world) with his 400 power level, took six months to get to Kai's planet and suffered from the gravity there. All his friends after a year of training and getting to around 1,500, were able to take Snake Way in about a week and had no problems with it at all. (Also Goku at his new 4,000 was able to make the trip in two days instead of six months.)
Also the eventual years later Saiyan power up retcon in action excuses any Goku power up where he gets beaten down.
Really, the power level jumps and scaling got ridiculous on Namek, but I've always been a bit bothered that apparently one year of serious training was able to jump everyone up to 10 times stronger than their previous bests. But that was on Toriyama giving Nappa and Vegeta such ridiculous numbers compared to what Raditz had. If they'd been 2,000 and, eh, 3,000, the overall scaling might have kept making sense. But being 4,000 and 18,000 meant the scaling was going to be ridiculous.
(Maybe its like Farenheit/Celcius thing. Farenheit has much bigger numbers than Celcius for accuracy, but Celcius is better for measuring temps near freezing. Scouters are made to judge the 500-20,000 range. Anything below that or not emiting energy, and they suck, and anything above that they're not really calibrated because not many guys are that tough… Thats why the scouters keep exploding when it rises to that point... and Ginyu scouters are programmed to deal with higher numbers still.)
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That always reminds me of how much Goku grows has always been very plot-dependant. It's at least good it's always stated to be the result of training, even in cases when we don't see it.
In this case Goku really easily defeats Tao after just a few days of training when he had quite a bit of trouble before. Retroactively it's a Zenkai boost thing, but in terms of storytelling it's really obvious plot convinience.
What I'm saying about character focus is that it's a lot better, not perfect. It would be great if literally everyone got something in a good capacity, which is one my problems with DB overall.
What they've done to remedy that is a huge step-up if you ask me and there is enough room and potential in the story to continue improving and actually keep said characters relevant.
The great part is that it would take some heavy asspulling to nullify all that development at this point. There isn't much room to botch this up in two episodes. (There is in a new series, tho.)
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Tao had no trouble at all so it didn't train him any.
I can't remember the filler that well, but I guess Korin also didn't really push Tao instead of just "getting beaten" quite easily. Which also adds to working out just fine.
And you made an edit right now, which really confused me when responding right now.:happy:
D-did I see just a little bit into the future? Guess my haki improves! -
He also gave him water with snot and brought a dark cloud to loan him so he didn't train on the way down.
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Oh wow, I'd forgotten about the dark nimbus. That was cool.
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Because he's completely forgettable.
I had to look to see if he was the black one, the short one, or the gay one.
Most of RR was pretty forgettable. Generic swappable color names (that even Toriyama screwed up at least once) didn't help. A trend that would carry to the awful android names.
In spite of that, Blue was one of the few who had his own inherent traits, apart from Tao Pai Pai. Toriyama put more effort in creating Blue than with the other soldiers and he (Blue) was fun to read.
I guess the black one, would be Black.
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It works just fine. Goku had to struggle to climb the tower, so it was training.
Keep in mind that it took Goku three days to climb the tower the first time he did it; Yajirobe did the same thing in a third the time while carrying Goku to boot.
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Yayirobe wasn't almost dead when he did it.
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Yajirobe was much stronger than that Goku's version.
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In spite of that, Blue was one of the few who had his own inherent traits, apart from Tao Pai Pai. Toriyama put more effort in creating Blue than with the other soldiers and he (Blue) was fun to read.
Totally agree, I like him as well!
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Yeah…. its easy to forget because of his overall performance in Z, but there was a brief window in there where Yajirobe was a total badass... stronger than Goku and Tien even.
That didn't last very long but.... it would have been cool if the chubby guy had persisted as a major player.
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He was part of a major plot point in the Saiyan arc, too. What a random character for Toriyama to make relevant. Why actually have Yamcha or Tien not die and show one of them come in with a surprise save instead?
But then it kinda lowers the stakes for Namek. Those two were far more prominent as characters than Yajirobe at points, tho. Both honestly felt like such an dissapointing afterthought in that fight.
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He was part of a major plot point in the Saiyan arc, too. What a random character for Toriyama to make relevant. Why actually have Yamcha or Tien not die and show one of them come in with a surprise save instead?
But then it kinda lowers the stakes for Namek. Those two were far more prominent as characters than Yajirobe at points, tho. Both honestly felt like such an dissapointing afterthought in that fight.
No so random. It mostly just feels weird where we started on Z stateside so have absolutely zero context about him. Naturally flowing from the Piccollo saga he makes perfect sense to be there.
He appeared near the end of original dragonball and was absolutely among the strongest characters. He was just sort of immediately outclassed.
I get the feeling Toriyama like Yajirobe… (He gave him a unique outfit and body shape and weapon!) but kind of like a lot of characters after his first appearance just didn't know what to do with him and then phased him out. Like Oolong and Launch and eventually Tien and Yamcha.
The worst of the "make it up as you go along" casualties was probably the complete waste of time of all those guys going to train with King Kai. Like... nothing came of that. At all.
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I followed DB with the German dub which started with original Dragon Ball, so I never had that effect as most of the US seems to have. Never got Superman Goku or victim Vegeta or any of that and for a time when browsing the internet I was confused why those interpertations existed.
Seeing Gohan's SSJ2 transformation as being "cool" was the strangest to me because I thought it was more scary than cool. But I don't think that's the dub's fault. I mean it felt great and had the cool factor of being so powerful, but it was much more creepy and unsettling to me than "cool".Yajirobe was really strong, but he never struck me as a "major player" for some reason.
Yamcha was there at the beginning stages of the story and continued to appear and Tenshinhan had a character arc, but I can see what you mean by him being part of the Piccolo arc. He's more "recent" than Yamcha and Tenshinhan so to say.
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DBS is still produced by Toei, right?
Rule of thumb: Toei sucksIt's really frustrating to see this kind of comment only because of a single episode. You know why many other anime have recap episodes? it's because the inability of the studio to produce a normal episode, Toei on the other hand doesn't have this privilege, they can't just make a recap episode all of a sudden, especially with such a big franchise. Do people call Wit, Ufotable and other studios for having a recap episodes in their shows?
…except for the Pretty Cure franchise, which almost always gets a ton of attention lavished upon it.
While Pretty Cure looks good for the most part, it doesn't really get anymore attention than other Toei franchises. I don't know if you actually follow that show, but it follows the typical Toei/long-running anime formula in terms of quality, with one highlight episode followed by for or so regular ones, except for the mid-season and season finale which gets two consecutive great episodes. While I want to explain my point more, I won't continue with this tangent point. It just has an appreciating fanbase that celebrates well done episodes and doesn't complain whenever they get a TAP episode, which should be what fanbases aspire to be.
No matter how good the writers, if the story is divided between various writers that deal with characters and a story that aren't theirs, there is probably going to be problems.
Did you watch any original anime? because that has multiple episode writers for sure. Almost every original anime has a handful of writers working on each of them, yet you don't see that many people getting upset by consistency here and there. Actually, many of the shows that don't have a source material are praised for the writing, despite not having a single writer working on the entire show. This even applies to many live-action TV series. So, if these other shows can do it, theoretically Super should be able to do so too. The reason behind the lack of coherency might be rewriting issues, weak communication between the writers, bad planning, the absence of a series composition credit, and being shackled by higher-ups demands (like asking for Goku to do something every episode).
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Yajirobe was really strong, but he never struck me as a "major player" for some reason.
Yamcha was there at the beginning stages of the story and continued to appear and Tenshinhan had a character arc, but I can see what you mean by him being part of the Piccolo arc. He's more "recent" than Yamcha and Tenshinhan so to say.
No, he was never major, he just got introduced a wee bit too late and did a wee bit too little during Piccollo… (compared to Tien that showed up at the same time) and then got gyped out of the following tournament by Kami... but given relative strengths it did made sense for him to be one of the fighters to train against the Saiyans.
He never really got to shine, (aside from cutting Vegeta's tail) but he never really got to fail either.
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What I mean by my comment is that having many writers on a series could cause problems and I think that's the one problem DBS specifically has. Too many cooks can spoil the broth. The ToP arc has 4 different consistently contributing writers on it (Toshio, Tomioka, Yamaguchi, Fukushima) and three additional writers that have only written a few episodes within the arc (Hisao, Yamashita, King Ryuu). It's incredibly scattered and add to that, these characters aren't ones they created. The original author can generally understand how his or her story and characters work the best, so there's another additional roadblock there.
It's not always guaranteed, but I think since Super has good writers, I think it really could benefit from cutting down the amount of writers, along with improving all the stuff you mentioned.
In terms of anime-only stuff, it's actually very common that there is only one writer behind it all. Madoka Magica, Psycho Pass, Evangelion and Kabaneri Of The Iron Fortress have one voice and only one or two writers with some lone contributors there, not 7 different ones. Projects with many writers are either episodic (Cowboy Bebop and Space Dandy) or absolute messes (Digimon 02). Having limited writers often does guarantee a unified vision of how the story plays out. Whether it's a good or bad unified vision is another thing and to be fair DBS kinda went to an episodic route with the ToP, which accomodates to many writers, but it's this and the other stuff you listed that causes stuff like the whole stamina recovery plot problem or the characters going full power for the 10th time.
I like Super, but I think it still needs to be improved in terms of the story quite a bit. I think it basically needs a continuation at this point because of all the dangling plot threads for it and it actually has a lot of potential, too. There is so much you can do with all the elements introduced here.
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Super needs to be a 26 episodes at most seasonal thing. Tell well paced and written stories with good animation, instead of stretching out subpar plot like an old chewing gum. Or if it has to be long, do what madhouse did for hxh and spend the god damn money. It is dragon ball after all, money is there.
None of this will ever happen for the franchise as a tv show though. Just look at the lazy Kai work instead of a proper remake.
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Spoilers!
! 130 is Goku vs. Jiren. 131 Goku is eliminated and Freeza attacks Jiren. No details on whether he catches him off-guard or anything like that.
! I like it. Again, leaves room for more later down the line. Would be even better if Goku falls out of UI, showing that he still has to learn how to actually use it properly. -
! People wanted something different and a bit unexpected and that's what they're getting. Personally I was ok with Jiren straight up losing to Goku here. Hopefully Gokus UI was wavering when he was hit by the blast, otherwise I just don't see Jiren getting his ass handed to him as things looked then just one shotting Goku out
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! This is either going to elevate Super to GOAT status or be a raging dumpster fire, and the two aren't mutually exclusive!
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How do you do spoilers? lol
! SPPPPPPPPPOOOOOOOOOOIIIIIIILEERRRRRRRRRRRRRR
SPPPPPPPPPOOOOOOOOOOIIIIIIILEERRRRRRRRRRRRRR
SPPPPPPPPPOOOOOOOOOOIIIIIIILEERRRRRRRRRRRRRR
SPPPPPPPPPOOOOOOOOOOIIIIIIILEERRRRRRRRRRRRRR
SPPPPPPPPPOOOOOOOOOOIIIIIIILEERRRRRRRRRRRRRR
SPPPPPPPPPOOOOOOOOOOIIIIIIILEERRRRRRRRRRRRRR
SPPPPPPPPPOOOOOOOOOOIIIIIIILEERRRRRRRRRRRRRR
SPPPPPPPPPOOOOOOOOOOIIIIIIILEERRRRRRRRRRRRRR
–Man, is F seriously going to get to beat a big bad? And
even freaking Vegeta has never gotten to do that! This
could be the very best thing ever.
SPPPPPPPPPOOOOOOOOOOIIIIIIILEERRRRRRRRRRRRRR
SPPPPPPPPPOOOOOOOOOOIIIIIIILEERRRRRRRRRRRRRR
SPPPPPPPPPOOOOOOOOOOIIIIIIILEERRRRRRRRRRRRRR
SPPPPPPPPPOOOOOOOOOOIIIIIIILEERRRRRRRRRRRRRR
SPPPPPPPPPOOOOOOOOOOIIIIIIILEERRRRRRRRRRRRRR
SPPPPPPPPPOOOOOOOOOOIIIIIIILEERRRRRRRRRRRRRR -
! Type [SPOLER] and [/SPOLER]. In advanced mode you can just click on the stop sign as well.
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Spoilers!
! 130 is Goku vs. Jiren. 131 Goku is eliminated and Freeza attacks Jiren. No details on whether he catches him off-guard or anything like that.
! I like it. Again, leaves room for more later down the line. Would be even better if Goku falls out of UI, showing that he still has to learn how to actually use it properly.[hide]
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! If Freeza wins, gets the SDB wish and we end on a cliffhanger of him getting away, I'll finally get an avatar.
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! If Freeza wins, gets the SDB wish and we end on a cliffhanger of him getting away, I'll finally get an avatar.
! F: "I wish for ….."
Oolong: "the 12 universe's most comfortable pair of underwear!"
! lol ... nah he's freiza he's a nice guy and wouldn't wish for anything bad, he'll wish back all the other universes instead -
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New interesting interview material courtesy of Herms86 at Twitter:
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New interesting interview material courtesy of Herms86 at Twitter:
! [qimg]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DX1eb5hVAAEFq0u?format=jpg[/qimg]
[qimg]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DX1epR0V4AAAXAn?format=jpg[/qimg]
[qimg]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DX1fLLZVAAATGGq?format=jpg[/qimg]Kudos to TOEI and the Freeza giving Goku energy scene
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I like that Caulifla was added by Toriyama. Kale doesn't work as well alone and Caulifla is the far better character.
Also Freeza giving Goku energy is a good addition because Goku getting up after that without any assistance would be much worse.
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So we can blame the bore that is Jiren all on Toriyama. So much for him always having fun and creative ideas.
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! What I understand is that either Toei found out people aren't liking Goku and wants to end things up with a character they know people wouldn't stop love ooooooor they actually think Jiren is The Hype…Which he isn't.
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Really? The fight junkie fanbase does not adore Jiren? I mean just look at his powerlevel, it's over 9000 times 9000!!!
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So if it wasn't for Toei boner on Broly we would never got female super sayians that aren't video games OC's.
This is probably the nicest thing Broly did to the franchise. -
For some reason the idea of Toriyama being behind Tenshinhan getting eliminated three times over gives me life.
And yeah, good on Toei for finally squeezing some female Super Saiyans out of Toriyama, even if they had to resort to Broly to do it.
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Good to see Toriyama was more involved then probably most of us thought.
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I came here to speak of a special kind of glee. It is the glee felt when you play FighterZ and you beat Cell with Android 18, who smiles playfully, and says "You're not absorbing me again!" and Android 17 follows it up with "Show respect for nature."
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The full interview is out.
! Jiren is probably going to win and wish back all the universes based on those comments ("it's also Jiren's story") and the spoilers. That's an okay ending, but not really very conclusive (which is another given), this also means at one point there can be more. Unless there is some sort of twist involving Freeza, that'd mean his involvement was strangely anti-climatic for all the build-up he got.
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! Jiren is probably going to win and wish back all the universes based on those comments ("it's also Jiren's story") and the spoilers. That's an okay ending, but not really very conclusive (which is another given), this also means at one point there can be more. Unless there is some sort of twist involving Freeza, that'd mean his involvement was strangely anti-climatic for all the build-up he got.
Jiren winning or not is irrelevant when it comes to the question of what's to follow, it's not as if he's the only one one who'd wish the other universes back, that role can be filled by anyone but Freeza. Every antagonist in Dragon Ball (and almost every shonen) is stronger than the former, so Jiren will be surpassed as well. That puts the writers in a bad spot, the erased universes can't produce a credible threat anymore, since none of them brought anyone as strong as him. Either we get another Zamasu or they are doomed to irrelevance, because of the absurd power spike in the story. The rules of Dragon Ball dictate that it needs to escalate even more, so that means some unknown threat exists in the non-participating universes, or the grand padre meme becomes real.
If they are really desperate to come up with anything plausible, they might as well give Freeza his wish and do some Emperor Joker-like story with him. -
These teams were gathered in the span of two days or less, so that actually leaves a lot of playing room, I think.
The whole thing with U10 for example was that Gowasu was so indecisive about choosing his team.
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some Emperor Joker-like story with him.
That'd be really awesome!
That is, if the writers actually could write at least decently. However, looking for example at the drama they put up in the RoF arc, like seriously trying to make us believe that Vegeta might go back to be Freeza's henchman again, I really doubt they could handle an Emperor Joker scenario so that it doesn't turn out to become completely cringe-worthy.
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Wait, so Toriyama was the one who came up with Jiren's design, background and personality?
Oooooh, boy, this is gold!
EDIT: Actually, I'm surprised with how much of the arc (and I suppose this goes for DBS as a whole) actually comes from Toriyama. I wonder if the fandom would still dislike DBS as much if it was made clear since the start he contributes this much.
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It would be pretty bad if the fanbase based their opinion on the quality of Super on how much involvement Toriyama had.
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Can you imagine such a thing?