Amazing Chapter, probably hit me the hardest emotionally since the timeskip, really loved luffy in here and it is terrible what sanji is going through, I dont think any character is OOC in this entire situation, Nami think's sanji's going too far because she's done something like this before, Luffy can read sanji well but isnt going to fight him because he's knows it is an act, the family is so used to their way of thinkingbeing right they dont really question sanji's heel turn and assume his tears are just the final traces of luffy getting burned out.To me it actually looked like ichiji and yonji are kind of congratulating him for kicking luffy's ass in a " so now you're one of us now, that's great hahaha" kind of way. Cannot wait until the wedding. This is the most gripped ive ever been watching or reading one piece.
Chapter 844: Luffy vs. Sanji
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Love or hate the chapter, I thought the art was really awesome. The move where he sky walks up and comes slamming down was sick. I wish they could have emphasized it a bit more by having the ground below crumble (similar to Sai's finishing move on Lao G).
Story wise, not a fan of the way Oda handled it. Seems like a retread of what we've seen before.
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I don't care what Sanji fans will say, taking a jab and Luffy's pirate king potential is below the belt. At this point, he's crossed the line. The is the downside of having a crew where everyone is friends.
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I'm not crying,Oda. There's just some crap stuck in my eye :'(
Me too, some random object that's stuck in my eye. Damn Oda.
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@Long:
Amazing Chapter, probably hit me the hardest emotionally since the timeskip, really loved luffy in here and it is terrible what sanji is going through, I dont think any character is OOC in this entire situation, Nami think's sanji's going too far because she's done something like this before, Luffy can read sanji well but isnt going to fight him because he's knows it is an act, the family is so used to their way of thinkingbeing right they dont really question sanji's heel turn and assume his tears are just the final traces of luffy getting burned out.To me it actually looked like ichiji and yonji are kind of congratulating him for kicking luffy's ass in a " so now you're one of us now, that's great hahaha" kind of way. Cannot wait until the wedding. This is the most gripped ive ever been watching or reading one piece.
To me in page 18 in MS the Vinsmokes brothers are totally laughing at him for what just happen with Luffy, thinking he is a pathetic shit like they always thought and that he already surrended to them.
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I don't care what Sanji fans will say, taking a jab and Luffy's pirate king potential is below the belt. At this point, he's crossed the line. The is the downside of having a crew where everyone is friends.
He's clearly speaking from the point of view of the Vinsmokes.
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Love or hate the chapter, I thought the art was really awesome.
Yeah, the art is always amazing and it's really easy to just take it for granted. As Oda said years ago, drawing comes easy to him… but writing a good story is difficult.
And I imagine it's not getting any easier after 800+ chapters.
As for the content of the chapter, yeah I mostly share the concerns, but I'm not willing to judge yet. My only hope for now is that Nami joined the act from the first second, and Jinbe doesn't become a sidelined Bellamy 2.0
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Yeah, the art is always amazing and it's really easy to just take it for granted. As Oda said years ago, drawing comes easy to him… but writing a good story is difficult.
And I imagine it's not getting any easier after 800+ chapters.
As for the content of the chapter, yeah I mostly share the concerns, but I'm not willing to judge yet. My only hope for now is that Nami joined the act from the first second, and Jinbe doesn't become a sidelined Bellamy 2.0
Nami's concerns appear to be how far sanji is going to prove this point. She didnt beat usopp into a bloody pulp at arlong park, she think his actions are going too far and sanji beating up his captain who isnt fighting back no matter if she knows that he is acting is still gonna get to her no matter. I think it makes sense for her to see sanji is putting up a facade for some reason yet at the same time feel like sanji might cause luffy serious harm ( beyond mere bruises ) and is pissed at him for not really holding back much.
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Yeah, the art is always amazing and it's really easy to just take it for granted. As Oda said years ago, drawing comes easy to him… but writing a good story is difficult.
And I imagine it's not getting any easier after 800+ chapters.
As for the content of the chapter, yeah I mostly share the concerns, but I'm not willing to judge yet. My only hope for now is that Nami joined the act from the first second, and Jinbe doesn't become a sidelined Bellamy 2.0
It has been a while since Jinbe showed up. I almost forgot he was in this arc :p
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@Count:
! This is a spectacular first post. You have nothing to apologize for lol. I liked reading your analytical evaluation of Sanji's character arc focusing on having low self-esteem this arc, and his frequent traits of selflessness. I would also throw in fighting Mr. 2 and wanting to get Usopp's glasses back. If you need to say something, then feel free to say it. Honest and passionate feedback is always appreciated.
! Luffy was great during this chapter. His statements of faith towards Sanji's capability in helping Luffy become Pirate King and not wanting to fight back were powerful. And seeing Sanji's dismay with his actions was unsettling, but worked well for drama. I still think this scene dynamic is too similar to Nami and Robin, especially at this point of the story, for my taste. But the execution of how far Oda took it and how Sanji has to deal with Luffy starving because of him will be very interesting to explore.
! I can sort of back Sanji's actions this chapter from a characterization perspective of his conflicted ego, obligation to Zeff (as seen with how strict he follows the chivalry code and being stubborn about leaving the Baratie due to the life saving debt), and how his actions earlier got Cosette beaten. His personality and trauma coming at him at the same time as Luffy's unexpected arrival is going to push him towards a hasty ultimatum. I can understand those factors inhibiting him to be submissive completely.
! However, I still don't back his actions as being logical or completely justifiable from an objective perspective. He completely gave up without any effort to even give his friends the benefit of the doubt after all they've been through. And I'm not saying this as if Sanji can just flip a switch to turn into Mr. Prince and hatch up some genius plan. What I am saying is that giving into despair, even in a hostage situation, when powerful friends who have proven themselves countless times are there to help you is not the way to go. He knows that his crewmates aren't going to give up by just putting up a facade and a fight. There's no conceivable way for Nami and Luffy to help out with the Zeff and explosive situation, sure, but that still doesn't mean that the best course of action is to bare all of the responsibility onto himself and hope that a golden opportunity comes by. That's not being smart, that's just accepting defeat.
! Yes, the Vinsmokes were there watching Sanji and he needed to put up a convincing act. I get that. But you want to know what this situation reminds me of? Cocoyashi Village in a few big ways. Such as how Nami put up her own facade in front of the Arlong Pirates by pretending to be greedy, attacking Usopp, provoking him into throwing a smoke bomb, and then faking his death by stabbing her hand with a random knife. All on the spot too due to not expecting the Straw Hats to come back for her. Also, her motivations behind her actions were to protect the Cocoyashi Village citizens from not being killed by the Arlong Pirates on the off chance that Luffy's crew acted up. To the point of pretending to join Arlong's crew by getting a tattoo and stealing treasure for them in order buy the island. Yet it turned out that the citizens knew it was a ruse all along and they ended up marching to their deaths for a revolution while Nami felt so responsible that she started stabbing the shoulder where the tattoo. That basic situation dynamic is a LOT like Sanji's in regards to the facade, protecting people he cares about, beating up crewmates as a ruse, and bearing all of the responsibility only to inevitably get screwed over without accepting help.
! If Oda wanted to, he could have been more creative with how Sanji could have played all of this. Like provoking Nami with held back attacks akin to the Kalifa fight to make her use weather in a similar way to Usopp's smoke bomb for cover. Or by trying to take the fight to the forest and coming back with a beaten up Luffy. And I'm just never going to buy the excuse people bring up of Big Mom's crew being intimidating as an overwhelming threat they're not familiar with. Because the whole point of that scene where Usopp burns the flag in Enies Lobby is that the Straw Hats are going to tackle any type of overlooking threat to save their comrades, no matter how big the opposing faction. So even in regards to Sanji's psyche, that can't and shouldn't be a factor thematically and sensibly.
! And people discredit Luffy's reasoning way too much. Yes, he's a complete dullard and turns to fists as his first line of action when a villain is around. But when someone is in danger or if the situation is clearly not winnable, he can have a level head. One example is back in Alabasta when Crocodile whipped up a sandstorm in the direction of where Kohza's father, Toto, was digging up a spring. Luffy immediately became enraged, but literally begged Crocodile several times to stop his actions due to Toto not having anything to do with their fight. Same goes for Sabaody Archipelago when he saw how his crew was clearly outmatched by the likes of Kuma, Sentomaru, and Kizaru surrounding them. He told his crew to run after seeing how everybody had to go all-out to beat one Pacifista and how Zoro was extremely wounded and unable to fight. In fact, he even yelled his attacks to Fujitora just because he liked him and give respect to someone who was blind. If he knows Sanji's hands can get blown off and that Zeff's got a hit put out on him, he will not risk their lives through hasty action by slugging Judge's jaw. Nami's also there to reason with him, and he'll listen because Nami is also a close friend and can relate deeply due to her Arlong Park experiences.
! And Sanji is not going to be able to get out of this marriage on his own. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see that happen as a credit to his character. But it's not how Oda works with Luffy consistently being given the role of saving and inspiring his friends. If Law couldn't be an exception in Dressrosa, then neither will Sanji. We can't bank on him waiting to find an opportunity when he's clearly refused help in an already helpless situation. Reiju might help out a bit, but that's literally it unless he somehow comes across Jimbei or something.
! I'm cool with the chapter and Sanji. But he shouldn't get away with a slap on the wrist once this situation is solved. He made this situation more complex by trying to play the lone wolf, and unlike Nami and Robin, knows what the Straw Hats are capable of. If Usopp had to plead for forgiveness for fighting Luffy, then Sanji better be ready to commit seppuku or something to realize the error in his ways. At the end of the day, I would have preferred for a more unique execution of this crewmate drama. But I'm with it as is and it suits Sanji. I'm just still not going to completely excuse Vinsmoke Sanji's action choices from a logical perspective. This manga beats us over the head with how we have to rely on our friends to help us out in dire circumstances, and this won't be any different.Couldn't put it any better. Nice, Count Mario!
@SuburbanErrorist:Count Mario making people feel better about their big posts by making big posts himself. I like it.
Good writing
Haha. Yeah, now we got some idea of the level of apforums commentary we should all aspire to, haha.
Anyway, I feel that Sanji is about to give in to Luffy next chapter. He just can't ignore that hunger-strike threat. Luffy seems really serious about not moving from that spot. His crewmates will be sitting duck there against Big Mom's forces.
But probably, it's just my wishful thinking again. Sanji has his own brand of stubbornness too. I just hope that he takes back what he said immediately. He can go to the tea party and do whatever he plans with the Vinsmokes after that. Just don't leave Luffy to die in there. It'll be amusing to see Luffy holding off Big Mom's commanders on that spot, while Nami takes care of any Homies that comes, though.
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@Count:
This is a spectacular first post. You have nothing to apologize for lol. I liked reading your analytical evaluation of Sanji's character arc focusing on having low self-esteem this arc, and his frequent traits of selflessness. I would also throw in fighting Mr. 2 and wanting to get Usopp's glasses back. If you need to say something, then feel free to say it. Honest and passionate feedback is always appreciated. …....
I thank you for the compliment. I'll try not to hold back. When I get passionate, I tend to create walls of text and I know it can be a bit much for forum discussion.
I totally agree with all your points. This was well thought out and made me think back on a couple things. While Sanji is getting all these developments that his character has been starving for after years and I'm ecstatic about it, I do have to agree that from a narrative/writing perspective Oda could have been more creative with this chapter's developments. It does feel like a rehash, for sure. I just try not to be too hard on his writing so far, as he's mostly doing a great job developing Sanji's character, and I'm just happy Sanji is finally getting put in the spotlight after all this time. Of course this is my bias speaking, not my logic. Your logic is sound and I see it, it just doesn't bother me because this arc is thrilling for me regardless.
You are also completely correct about people (myself included) discrediting Luffy. In fact, shortly after I posted something here earlier today, I realized I had done exactly that. I was waiting for someone to bring it up. I think in this light, Sanji was being totally illogical, because Luffy totally has the capability to hold himself back when the situation really isn't appropriate for his rash impetuous actions. But I do think Sanji was scared and unwilling to risk it - which is to say, he didn't trust his captain on this front. I think while I totally sympathize with Sanji right now from a psychological, character-driven standpoint, he definitely crossed a physical line, and he absolutely should apologize. I don't think an apology from him is as crucial or necessary as Usopp's was, since Usopp 100% chose to pick a fight with Luffy and had little excuse for it. Sanji was just as disrespectful to Luffy in this chapter as well (probably more), but I would argue he was under an insane amount of pressure and stress which simply wasn't the case with Usopp. Regardless, I'd like to see him own up for what he did. But, it's clear that he feels like total shit for what he did already, and I don't doubt we'll get an apology from him soon enough.
I'd also wager that our logical sides are not supposed to sympathize with Sanji. We are supposed to cringe at what he's doing, I think this is how Oda wants it to be. Sanji's extreme emotional distress is causing him to crack under the pressure of all the pain and suffering he's built up until now, and when that happens to a person, I wouldn't anticipate logical choices or actions from them. A person is all instinct at that point. It's a very raw state of being, and pretty damn realistic, I'd say. I'm appreciating it from this standpoint anyway, and as much as I want to be annoyed and angry with what Sanji's done to Luffy, I can't help but feel his sadness and his pain and it leaves me more sympathetic than anything. I guess this is an easy thing for me to do, considering the main appeal of Sanji's character for me is the fact that he's not perfect and has many, many faults (some of which annoy me to no end), but I appreciate these faults as what contributes to making him more human than most of the characters in OP.
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it won't be Zoro vs sanji it would be just Zoro whaling on him. They have respect for each other but they also quarrel a lot if he sees someone who holds a lot of value and respect in the crew behave this way….
Zoro is also the most respectful and loyal to Luffys decisions. Meaning when Luffy says not to interfere, he wouldn't
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The more time passes, the more I like the chapter.
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Ladies and gentlemen. It was only a matter of time.
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!Points off for no Brook and JimbeiCouldn't put it any better. Nice, Count Mario!
Haha. Yeah, now we got some idea of the level of apforums commentary we should all aspire to, haha.
Thank you! I just have a bad habit of typing up long winded posts. But I've made plenty of mistakes on this forum since I've registered, and you should give yourself more credit as a contributor.
I thank you for the compliment. I'll try not to hold back. When I get passionate, I tend to create walls of text and I know it can be a bit much for forum discussion.
I totally agree with all your points. This was well thought out and made me think back on a couple things. While Sanji is getting all these developments that his character has been starving for after years and I'm ecstatic about it, I do have to agree that from a narrative/writing perspective Oda could have been more creative with this chapter's developments. It does feel like a rehash, for sure. I just try not to be too hard on his writing so far, as he's mostly doing a great job developing Sanji's character, and I'm just happy Sanji is finally getting put in the spotlight after all this time. Of course this is my bias speaking, not my logic. Your logic is sound and I see it, it just doesn't bother me because this arc is thrilling for me regardless.
You are also completely correct about people (myself included) discrediting Luffy. In fact, shortly after I posted something here earlier today, I realized I had done exactly that. I was waiting for someone to bring it up. I think in this light, Sanji was being totally illogical, because Luffy totally has the capability to hold himself back when the situation really isn't appropriate for his rash impetuous actions. But I do think Sanji was scared and unwilling to risk it - which is to say, he didn't trust his captain on this front. I think while I totally sympathize with Sanji right now from a psychological, character-driven standpoint, he definitely crossed a physical line, and he absolutely should apologize. I don't think an apology from him is as crucial or necessary as Usopp's was, since Usopp 100% chose to pick a fight with Luffy and had little excuse for it. Sanji was just as disrespectful to Luffy in this chapter as well (probably more), but I would argue he was under an insane amount of pressure and stress which simply wasn't the case with Usopp. Regardless, I'd like to see him own up for what he did. But, it's clear that he feels like total shit for what he did already, and I don't doubt we'll get an apology from him soon enough.
I'd also wager that our logical sides are not supposed to sympathize with Sanji. We are supposed to cringe at what he's doing, I think this is how Oda wants it to be. Sanji's extreme emotional distress is causing him to crack under the pressure of all the pain and suffering he's built up until now, and when that happens to a person, I wouldn't anticipate logical choices or actions from them. A person is all instinct at that point. It's a very raw state of being, and pretty damn realistic, I'd say. I'm appreciating it from this standpoint anyway, and as much as I want to be annoyed and angry with what Sanji's done to Luffy, I can't help but feel his sadness and his pain and it leaves me more sympathetic than anything. I guess this is an easy thing for me to do, considering the main appeal of Sanji's character for me is the fact that he's not perfect and has many, many faults (some of which annoy me to no end), but I appreciate these faults as what contributes to making him more human than most of the characters in OP.
It can be a bit much, but it can also be a nice way to draw attention. Just make sure each paragraph in itself isn't too long. XD
I'm game for all the Sanji development I can get. I would prefer more unique execution, but to Oda's credit, this situation still opens a bunch of cool possibilities for the plot to become more dynamic and for epic emotional moments. I agree that Usopp's voluntary mutiny was more serious in the grand scheme of how Sanji doesn't mean what he says in this chapter and has plenty of big things on the line. Not that this excuses him from responsibility over how he went about this situation though, especially with how relentless he was for just an act. And at least he shows a bunch of remorse over it.
I can deeply respect how Sanji's flaws appeal to you! Luffy being so steadfast in doubting Sanji's words is most likely meant to represent how we as the readers should feel towards Sanji's actions. While I still wish for a more unique execution as previously mentioned, looking at this arc by itself, this was still quite the powerful chapter. It's just that I appreciate it when characters can learn from other experiences, especially those of their friends, and be inspired to not succumb to the same mistakes despite the temptation. Or at least try. But I still can't completely blame Sanji's rationality here, and a first-hand experience of this type of situation is never something that you can fully prepare your tolerance for.
As long as Oda as an author recognizes that Sanji's actions were still overboard despite the understandable circumstances and that he should respect his captain's capability more, I'm completely fine with all of this.
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So… I'm most worried about Luffys tooth. Anyone else feel the same?
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just only way for luffy, if he want protect sanji/baratie.. he must beat the big mom, and claim the emperor title..
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So… I'm most worried about Luffys tooth. Anyone else feel the same?
Either Blackbeard has been masquerading as Usopp for the entirety of One Piece or Luffy will most likely grow his tooth back because of toon force. -
The thing that I am really excited for is the redemption. Sanji is currently at an all time low. Whether it is because of his situation or what he just did to Luffy. I mean Nami was disgusted by what he did and considering that I think the redemption of Sanji is gonna be AMAZING.
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I wonder how many times Luffy have to suffer from the hands of his own crew. This Mr. Nice guy is not working, time to lead like a real captain would.
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As much as I like the idea of another two crew members fighting, this is…kind of stupid. It would be a lot more intense if we didn't know for a fact Sanji's words are false. Say if he'd been acting differently this whole time or had been silent, it'd be different. Here, it's obvious he's faking all this so there's no real tension.
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Zoro is also the most respectful and loyal to Luffys decisions. Meaning when Luffy says not to interfere, he wouldn't
You really think Zoro will stand for this continuous disrespect of Luffy?
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I think there are a lot of reasons to criticize Sanji's actions in this chapter, but I don't think any of them are really merited as criticisms of the storytelling. That Sanji is making a mistake and taking this too far is the point.
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I wonder how many times Luffy have to suffer from the hands of his own crew. This Mr. Nice guy is not working, time to lead like a real captain would.
Yeah…...no. That's not gonna happen. Ever.
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You really think Zoro will stand for this continuous disrespect of Luffy?
Yeah. Pretty sure of it, actually.
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You really think Zoro will stand for this continuous disrespect of Luffy?
Yea I do, because Zoro has never stepped over his Captain's foot before. The only time he 'did' do that was with his speech regarding Usopp returning, and that was only because of his fear of his Captain being stepped all over
This is not a case of Luffy being 'stepped all over'. It's a case of him making it clear as the captain that Luffy won't let Sanji leave for some crap he spewed out of his mouth.
Unless you can indicate any evidence that Zoro would otherwise disobey Luffy's order. I don't believe he ever has.
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@Count:
And Sanji is not going to be able to get out of this marriage on his own. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see that happen as a credit to his character. But it's not how Oda works with Luffy consistently being given the role of saving and inspiring his friends. If Law couldn't be an exception in Dressrosa, then neither will Sanji. We can't bank on him waiting to find an opportunity when he's clearly refused help in an already helpless situation. Reiju might help out a bit, but that's literally it unless he somehow comes across Jimbei or something.
I'm cool with the chapter and Sanji. But he shouldn't get away with a slap on the wrist once this situation is solved. He made this situation more complex by trying to play the lone wolf, and unlike Nami and Robin, knows what the Straw Hats are capable of. If Usopp had to plead for forgiveness for fighting Luffy, then Sanji better be ready to commit seppuku or something to realize the error in his ways. At the end of the day, I would have preferred for a more unique execution of this crewmate drama. But I'm with it as is and it suits Sanji. I'm just still not going to completely excuse Vinsmoke Sanji's action choices from a logical perspective. This manga beats us over the head with how we have to rely on our friends to help us out in dire circumstances, and this won't be any different.
That's completely in character, though.
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@Count:
Things
Good post with good points. I've been defending Sanji all day so it may seem to some people that I consider his decisions to be just and perfectly thought out. I think Sanji made a smart decision given all that was on his plate, but the entire nature of all this proves that he is a human, and can only do so much with the decisions he makes.
Ultimately, what leads Sanji to all this drama is pretty much the character-centered aspect of One Piece. Sanji's character has been thoroughly established through the story, and now that we're well into it, he's expected to stay with what's given to him, as he very much should. It's cool and all if Oda managed to figure out a way for Sanji to make everything cool with Luffy and co. in a more original way, but from Sanji's perspective, would it really have been realistic for him to do that? It would be like every character in One Piece doing whatever the hell they wanted because they knew they wouldn't die. But of course the characters don't know that. And so you can't expect Oda to write Sanji in a way that he would do something like that; it may make sense from a fan's perspective, but would Sanji's personality and his extremely dire situation cause him to sensically do such a thing?
Maybe Sanji should trust in his crewmates. He's been with them for a long time, after all, and his overall captivity situation is different from Nami's and Robin's. When the two females were rescued, they were relatively recent members who had had an "off" feel to them and focused a lot on their own separate agendas. So to them, who were a lot more distant from the Straw Hats at the time, it would make sense for them to turn the crew away, as it wouldn't make much sense to ask a group of people you never really attempted to connect with to help you. In most cases, such situations would never happen, but such is the magic of the Straw Hats, which is what Nami and Robin learned. So why isn't Sanji different? Well, ultimately, Sanji's had so many deep and emotional experiences with the Straw Hats that, funnily enough, caused his attitude to be the same as Nami and Robin's, though for much different reasons. Rather than rejecting the Straw Hats out of personal guilt for not really interacting with them and thus not "deserving" to be helped, Sanji rejected them because he truly understood their bond and their goal. And so of course, being the selfless person he is, he would definitely not want the Straw Hats to put their dreams on the line just because of his past that they had no knowledge or control over. Is it flawless thinking? Of course not! But Sanji would never want the Straw Hats to risk having their lives and dreams, which he understands quite well, end because of him. It's just his character, after all.
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I'm sure Luffy can say the exact same thing to any other straw hat: "without you, I can't become Pirate King".
True, but no one can cook and prepare food like Sanji can.:ninja:
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That's completely in character, though.
My post wasn't arguing about Sanji's characterization, but his logic. I mention several times that his character is actually consistent in that comment. I'm just criticizing the logic behind his decision. This isn't a critique towards Oda as a writer lol, besides maybe how similar this is to Nami and Robin in execution of character interaction specifically. I'm just saying that Sanji's actions in the situation aren't completely justifiable, no matter how pressured he was. He has character flaws. That's a good thing. We just shouldn't forget that they're, well, character FLAWS. I love Usopp's traits of cowardice and the situations it puts him into, but that doesn't mean I'm going to defend moments like when he tried to run away from Miss Merry Christmas and Mr. 4 as being levelheaded or ethically charismatic. It's why seeing a character like him overcome that when Luffy's dream is insulted that makes him such a compelling character. And I can't wait for Sanji to get a similar type of development once he accepts that taking all of this on by himself is not the right option.
@Kaido:
Good post with good points. I've been defending Sanji all day so it may seem to some people that I consider his decisions to be just and perfectly thought out. I think Sanji made a smart decision given all that was on his plate, but the entire nature of all this proves that he is a human, and can only do so much with the decisions he makes.
Ultimately, what leads Sanji to all this drama is pretty much the character-centered aspect of One Piece. Sanji's character has been thoroughly established through the story, and now that we're well into it, he's expected to stay with what's given to him, as he very much should. It's cool and all if Oda managed to figure out a way for Sanji to make everything cool with Luffy and co. in a more original way, but from Sanji's perspective, would it really have been realistic for him to do that? It would be like every character in One Piece doing whatever the hell they wanted because they knew they wouldn't die. But of course the characters don't know that. And so you can't expect Oda to write Sanji in a way that he would do something like that; it may make sense from a fan's perspective, but would Sanji's personality and his extremely dire situation cause him to sensically do such a thing?
Maybe Sanji should trust in his crewmates. He's been with them for a long time, after all, and his overall captivity situation is different from Nami's and Robin's. When the two females were rescued, they were relatively recent members who had had an "off" feel to them and focused a lot on their own separate agendas. So to them, who were a lot more distant from the Straw Hats at the time, it would make sense for them to turn the crew away, as it wouldn't make much sense to ask a group of people you never really attempted to connect with to help you. In most cases, such situations would never happen, but such is the magic of the Straw Hats, which is what Nami and Robin learned. So why isn't Sanji different? Well, ultimately, Sanji's had so many deep and emotional experiences with the Straw Hats that, funnily enough, caused his attitude to be the same as Nami and Robin's, though for much different reasons. Rather than rejecting the Straw Hats out of personal guilt for not really interacting with them and thus not "deserving" to be helped, Sanji rejected them because he truly understood their bond and their goal. And so of course, being the selfless person he is, he would definitely not want the Straw Hats to put their dreams on the line just because of his past that they had no knowledge or control over. Is it flawless thinking? Of course not! But Sanji would never want the Straw Hats to risk having their lives and dreams, which he understands quite well, end because of him. It's just his character, after all.
I agree with everything you said! Very nicely put. Like I mentioned earlier, Sanji's characterization makes his actions understandable. I'm only talking about those who would consider Sanji's actions completely justifiable from an objective ethical and tactical perspective. I'm not criticizing the chapter, just making a point that, if anything, the chapter is meant to demonstrate how Sanji's human flaws are inhibiting him and that we should feel like Luffy. That we should feel like Sanji's actions are a bunch of BS and that he should find some way to come clean and trust his crewmates in some subtle fashion than accept sole responsibility. That's all, Sanji's character in and of itself is quite consistent. And that once all said and done in this arc, he should probably apologize for taking his act so far. It's not on the level of Usopp's mutiny understandably due to lives being on the line, but Sanji is still trying to reject how One Piece is all about trusting your friends to help fight battles that have you cornered.
Also, I didn't mean to say Sanji's logic was completely dumb. But I'm not going to credit it as a particularly wise choice either in terms of effectiveness in the grand scheme of the dilemma and arc itself.
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Sanji is selfishly selfless but putting so little stock in his personal livelihood, he has time and time recklessly in some cases, risked death to try and save others, sanji is trying to take all the consequences onto himself because I think deep down he stills has these scars from his childhood.
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Yea I do, because Zoro has never stepped over his Captain's foot before. The only time he 'did' do that was with his speech regarding Usopp returning, and that was only because of his fear of his Captain being stepped all over
This is not a case of Luffy being 'stepped all over'. It's a case of him making it clear as the captain that Luffy won't let Sanji leave for some crap he spewed out of his mouth.
Unless you can indicate any evidence that Zoro would otherwise disobey Luffy's order. I don't believe he ever has.
You remember what he told Luffy during the Usopp incident. I don't care if you goff around all day but if you ever let anyone disrespect you, I will walk. And you really think he will stand letting someone like Sanji take a piss over Luffy? Seriously?
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Also count while you have a point about sanji taking the most basic courses, it bares remembering that 1. sanji had barely anytime to think before luffy showed up to his window ( no time to think of a crazy plan in an instant ) 2. Judge isnt just gonna let them wander off in the woods to fight and sanji speaking code would be tough cause lack of time and trying to slip something past a genius scientist. 3. Sanji was willing to fight his brother Niji but stopped right when zeff was mentioned even though niji isnt in charge of that and Al, he's taking this threat very serious, for all he knows if judge sees him get too chummy or cute with his words he could send the order.
sanji is meant to not look super cool and suave here, he is being emotionally beaten down by two conflicting goals, keep zeff save and rejoining his friends. Luffy could have ruined that if sanji didnt do anything and luffy ended up beating the vinsmokes or taling sanji. His actions are rash but I dont know if there is much else he can do in that sithation and I think oda right it that way on purpose. Also personally, IMO It's less lack of trust in luffy than he doesnt want to risk others lives for his benefit.
Another thing I wanted to mention was the act of delaying luffy, how literal does he mean this spot because I feel he could mean the general area or island even. I think MS might have been too literal because I dont see how he gets back into the arc if he cant leave a 1 foot radius
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
You remember what he told Luffy during the Usopp incident. I don't care if you goff around all day but if you ever let anyone disrespect you, I will walk. And you really think he will stand letting someone like Sanji take a piss over Luffy? Seriously?
Using your logic, zoro should have threatened to leave after luffy refused to fight vs bellamy. That was more "humilating" then anything here. Luffy doesnt have a big ego, and that's not what zoro was trying to protect there in his convo about usopp.
Edit: Also now that I think about it, luffy is doing the opposite of what he originally intended with usopp because luffy was lowering himself from his position as captain by absolving usopp of responsibility. Here he is not going along with sanji's plans is sticking to his position about being determined to bring sanji back, almost completely opposite thematically
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You remember what he told Luffy during the Usopp incident. I don't care if you goff around all day but if you ever let anyone disrespect you, I will walk. And you really think he will stand letting someone like Sanji take a piss over Luffy? Seriously?
Like I said, it's a completely different situation.
Let's put it this way, with Usopp Luffy won a duel that Usopp initiated. Yet when Luffy heard Usopp wanted to come back, Luffy was up in arms about it. What Zoro was displeased about was if Luffy would just accept him without hearing a strong apology first. In other words getting walked by Usopp
Sanji's situation is completely different. The duel itself was just a facade, everyone involved knew that.
There's no pride to be lost here. Just because he gets physically pummeled around, doesn't mean he's getting stepped all over because the physical duel was just a minor part of it. The major part was the emotion and mental side of it. To which Luffy clearly stated himself who was really hurting.Completely different circumstances. In fact, if anything Luffy's pride as a captain shone in this chapter. Something Zoro loves to see in Luffy.
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@Count:
[qimg]http://i.imgur.com/UBbHgK3.png[/qimg]
Either Blackbeard has been masquerading as Usopp for the entirety of One Piece or Luffy will most likely grow his tooth back because of toon force.God I hope so. That shit would be unsightly otherwise lol
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A really great and heartfelt chapter! Good to see One Piece do this so well!
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@Bon:
Now this makes the list complete:
Luffy vs Luffy (Ch.478)
Luffy vs Zoro (Ch.112)
Luffy vs Sanji (Ch.844)
Luffy vs Usopp (Ch.332)
Luffy vs Franky (Ch.336)Which one do you prefer?
for me this chapter win.You forgot one.:ninja:
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way different than Ussop or Robin. Sanji is actually bad mouthing the crew & Luffy which you can tell how hard it must be for Sanji to do & that only makes this chapter stronger.
Luffy on a hunger strike will keep out of the story for a bit until the wedding part happens and Sanji can figure something out. I wonder if Luffy can stay hidden for that long…since he is so close to castle, i am guessing he might get captured and put into a sea stone cell for a bit to be rescued by Purin/Sanji.
10/10 chapter
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Yeah, the art is always amazing and it's really easy to just take it for granted. As Oda said years ago, drawing comes easy to him… but writing a good story is difficult.
Personally, I preferred the art back during the Baroque Works Saga and Skypiea. Oda's drawings was a lot more detailed and cleaner back then, but that's just me. The art now ain't bad either.
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@Bon:
Now this makes the list complete:
Luffy vs Luffy (Ch.478)
Luffy vs Zoro (Ch.112)
Luffy vs Sanji (Ch.844)
Luffy vs Usopp (Ch.332)
Luffy vs Franky (Ch.336)Which one do you prefer?
for me this chapter win.Luffy vs Franky should not count. He was an enemy that stole from the SHs at that time.
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Can not feel emotion from a useless standoff with no consequences around it.
Sanji's kicks were not intentional so Luffy's Acme hour shouts were funny. -
Like I said, it's a completely different situation.
Let's put it this way, with Usopp Luffy won a duel that Usopp initiated. Yet when Luffy heard Usopp wanted to come back, Luffy was up in arms about it. What Zoro was displeased about was if Luffy would just accept him without hearing a strong apology first. In other words getting walked by Usopp
Sanji's situation is completely different. The duel itself was just a facade, everyone involved knew that.
There's no pride to be lost here. Just because he gets physically pummeled around, doesn't mean he's getting stepped all over because the physical duel was just a minor part of it. The major part was the emotion and mental side of it. To which Luffy clearly stated himself who was really hurting.Completely different circumstances. In fact, if anything Luffy's pride as a captain shone in this chapter. Something Zoro loves to see in Luffy.
When I used the word "disrespect" you keep thinking am talking about fights. What Zoro had problem with was not the fight itself, it was because Usopp had the guts to challenge their captain to a duel and then left the crew. Respect is not about who beat who up. You can beat someone or got beaten but still have respect for your opponent. When I say Sanji disrespect Luffy, it's not the fight. I don't care about fights. My point is he can still achieve the same result without disrespecting his captain. I can understand why everyone flock to defend the poor guy that has a helpless mentor in East blue and also wearing a bomb but this is not enough excuse.
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He took on the bounty hunters cause everyone else but Nami was passed out and the bounty hunters were scrubs.
the thing is,zoro knew after coming to Whiskey Peak that these guys were trouble,and also knew sometime later that they were Baroque works.plus,it's not like he couldn't have woken them up.so the argument of him taking him on by himsleves because he had to doesn't hold up.it was mostly because he was somewhat arrogant and proud,and treating luffy like a older brother.
Which he did. Then Luffy got up to pee and saw the aftermath. He literally says he thought Zoro was mad at the townsfolk because they didn't have any more booze. Luffy was pissed because they gave him meat and he's always grateful to people that give him food.
agreed.i never meant luffy was pissed was because of zoro acting high and mighty.but luffy getting pissed was a direct result of zoro not keeping luffy in the loop.you could also say it's a trust deficit when luffy easily believes that zoro could be that vain and selfish
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I don't like how forced this whole confrontation is, and how Nami isn't getting it. But that was a beautiful chapter.
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Now when I think about it..
Sanji could not tell Luffy that Big Mom has keys to his cuffs because Luffy would run straight to castle for them.. And he would mess up things even more.
Nami cannot reason with Luffy and Sanji knows how stubborn self serving bastard Luffy is..Also this chapter confirms that Sanji was holding back against at least Niji. I guess that was reason why we gotten to see how serious Ichiji was over seeing Sanji fighting Luffy. Other reason being that Ichiji became aware that somebody is putting extremely high value in Sanji - as person/ fighter seemingly and as cook. So that must have been ticking Ichiji off in a way.
Ichiji must have been also ticked off by fact that Sanji was holding back against Niji - looking down on Vinsmokes.
I like how Oda is slowly building up Ichiji as someone special among Vinsmokes. I would love to see Sanjis hell memories or "hidden upgrade trump card" vs Ichiji. Even as I seen nothing from him.
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Awesome Post
Glad that you joined… You has been able to make a better post with your first one as I have through all these years. Kudos to that and why I'm a bit disappointed in Sanji's act I agree in certrain elements of your post about Sanji's problems with himself.
I think ever since Zeff told him to look closer at Luffy and Zoro and how their will is big, it showed that snaji has some self doubts. Now with this arc we get a story why... And this maybe explains his behaving as you pointed it out in certrain events or even his "brotherly" rivaly with Zoro.
And I posted some pages back... Zoro in this arc would be interesting to see... Not just because of this chapter but because about the whole event... I bet he would be pissed of this shitty brothers as well and it would have been a very good of interaction between Sanji and Zoro similar to TB.
I know it is ignored by a lot... But it also fits your post... Sanji was even putting himself and his dream back to save Zoro's dream at Thriller Bark.
Further more about the discussion that Sanji went too far... Yeah I agree with Nami and you BUT Sanji himself for sure knows it as well. He agreed about the whole Usopp think with Zoro so I have no doubts that he will have no problems apologizing to Luffy if he finally get's free of his "trauma"
Still hope Zeff somehow will be involved into it to encourage Sanji to live his own life... He is a pirate after all and maybe will his old connections he knows what is going on...
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Zeff showing up on wedding would be crazy(being invited by Big Mom/ Vinsmokes).
Also I wonder if those cuffs are not only making that beep sound when Sanji tries to take them off and in fact those might be fake. So with Zeff on wedding and cuffs being bluff we would get Sanji to be free.
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Zeff showing up on wedding would be crazy(being invited by Big Mom/ Vinsmokes). Also I wonder if those cuffs are not only making that beep sound when Sanji tries to take them off and in fact those might be fake. So with Zeff on wedding and cuffs being bluff we would get Sanji to be free.
It would be more badass even if unlikely if shows up and says.You little eggplant… how you dare not inviting your father to your wedding.Sanji needs to let Zeff go and live his own life. Zeff already told him so at Baratie...
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It would be more badass even if unlikely if shows up and says.You little eggplant… how you dare not inviting your father to your wedding.Sanji needs to let Zeff go and live his own life. Zeff already told him so at Baratie...
That would be terrible but somewhat good. Most the SH are "alone" in regards to family, and the situation with Zeff is a good example of why that is good.
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Still hope Zeff somehow will be involved into it to encourage Sanji to live his own life…
I think the person to do that won't be Zeff but… Gin.
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