It's because kubo kept changing yhwach's plan throughout the arc.
Bleach Discussion █: Soul Society, but not!
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@King-Cannon But if theres one thing i remember about Yhwach it's that he likes peace and hates fighting
I think he said it right before he murdered a subordinate, prior to the I wanna say first full scale SS invasion?
Also I think he was the son of the soul king and/or wanted to be the soul king but I could be wrong. He did briefly redecorate the Kings realm after absorbing the right arm of Exodia which exploded out of Ukitake, I'm pretty sure of that
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@ea77 I.....relent that that is a valid way of thinking about it, really the optimal solution would be a sort of partnership that Quincies help weaken the Hollows for Shinigami to purify, but obviously that wasn't a thing.
(Or the idea of training Quincies in konso, that works)
Really the problem is this Quincy stuff is first touched upon in the first arc, then put in a backburner for most of the series until it was time to bring it back, leaving many to not give it another thought. So as a result Kubo had to keep piling on details.
heck with all the lore it feels like the final arc would be longer but nah, it's shorter than the Arrancar stuff. -
I just looked up some of my old Bleach posts and came across the phrase "cheese angel owl centaur sniper" which I had completely forgotten about
Really there were some charmingly bugnuts moments by the end; Bleach would've done well to go full Jojo insanity, but it could just never shake the omnipresent air of detached smugness, at least not for more than brief moments.
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Now THAT was an unforgettable battle, due to its sheer insanity.
And it's still crazy that it was technically only resolved offscreen with zombie Kira fighting all the motherfucking alien flamingos.
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This is going to have to wait until I'm home and behind my computer, but I think I have an answer for why we take such umbrage with the quincy in this arc.
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Alright, thank you all for waiting patiently. I'm finally able to sit down and surmise what I believe is the biggest problem with the quincy in this arc.
Even disregarding all the evil assholery and nonsensical schemes, the real issue with the quincy is that they're no longer human. Before this arc, the quincy were defined by the fact that they were human. Sure, they had strong spiritual affinity and had the unique ability to manipulate reishi, but at the end of the day, they were still just human. But then Yhwach shows up with his new hoard of sycophants, and they become increasingly deific. Quincy are no longer regular humans with strong spiritual powers, no. Their progenitor is the "son of the soul king" (whatever that means) and they are the chosen people who will inherit the land. Hell, a handful of them are even over a thousand years old and participated in the original war with the shinigami.
But why? Why go so absurd with the powers and the lore behind them? Much like the hollow allergy, it's really just lip service for the world building. Let's look at that, actually. It was theorized in universe that the reason for quincies total hostility towards hollows has to do with "Primal fear towards something that threatens our lives". I figured being able to see horrible spirit monsters that attack people on sight would be a good enough reason for any hostility towards something. Humans aren't allergic to bears or lions, but we contain a certain level of hostility towards these creatures because they can brutally maul us. If I had the means to eliminate a threat, I'd use them. This only get more egregious when you remember all the times Uryuu was injured by a hollow/arrancar. Yet he still miraculously lives past those encounters. Then there were the times he absorbed Cirucci's spiritual energy into himself and Quilge absorbed that hollow chimera into himself. Neither seemed particularly perturbed in doing this. And of course, there was the bankai stealing. Obviously the heroes were going to reclaim their bankai, but how could they possibly do it? Would they abandon the asauchi and manifest their zanpakuto on their own? Maybe they'll simply break the medal and take them back? Nah, let's give the quincy this weakness that was never a thing before and never mentioned after. That can't possibly be a serious detriment to the story and its worldbuilding.
I want to end this with a 'removed' look at the quincy, so to speak. Looking at Yhwach and the quincy, I honestly think it would have been better to save this kind of stuff for a different faction of antagonists. Keep the quincy human and their grievance with the shinigami purely a revenge one. There's no need to complicate their story with anything. That way, you can have the quincy story and still use the crazy powers/characters at a later time.
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that....is pretty apt.
You have that flashback with Ywhach on a horse with like kid Bazz-B/Haschwald in like the 1300s or something and then it just hits you that a Quincy is now this third entity in the Bleach world, less a human with special powers harvesting spirit energy. The beginning stuff with Uryu and all this additonal lore just doesn't gel well, in fact stuff like "Hollow antibodies" and "hollowing a Bankai" are just so overly convoluted that you have to stop and think it all over.
Uryu uses something called Quincy Final Form fighting Mayuri, right? Literally not even alluded to with the Stern Ritters. Seems stuff like blut or what have you be something a young Uryu learn under his grandfather as part of the tool kit, but even if you think of it as "well the Ishidas rejected Ywach-style powers" it's also this huge amount of lore that Uryu himself is not very versed in (think the anime added scene of him discovering more lore in a book)
The final arc is very back-loaded with this kind of stuff, obviously to make it more grandiose and fill out the story of our final antagonist.
Uryu declines going with Ichigo and friends to save Bawabawa out of a concern of eliminating too many Hollows but that was hardly a concern when it was saving Orihime, in a way re-reminding the audience why they were hunted to begin with, along with that scene of Kajomaru (the not!Aizen) explaining the Quincy lore to Shino and Ryunosuke, a refresher for the readers that haven't thought about it in quite some time.
Is it technically wrong for a Quincy to wipe out a bunch of souls on the path to reincarnation? i guess, i don't know. but is it wrong if you're a Quincy parent and you're shooting at a Hollow that wants to devour your child??? no. Hell Reincarnation in general is rather underdeveloped, since we really don't have an example to look at. I think the final arc should've raised more questions about what was right and what was wrong. Yamamoto deliberately uses his Bankai to raise the killed allies of whom he thought was Ywhach against him (how does that work given how the cycle works i don't know), which even if it was just a clone, it was still a pretty haunting thing to do.
the arc also zips past Mayuri's actions (like seriously, if Uryu jointed the Vandenreich JUST to kill him I'd believe it) and doesn't even bring up his grandfather either, what we were introduced to when the idea of a Quincy debuted.
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I like how this thread is pointing out and elaborating on the inconsistencies and plot holes when ultimately Kubo just didn't think this through.
I believe we are past the point of acceptance that he just is not a good writer.
However, it is still interesting to read the what could have beens in the hands of a more competent writer.On my reread of this arc, and if we break it down into 3 seasons(parts), the first and early middle was pretty good and brought back some of that magic, along with a semblance of coherent writing. The late middle and final part failed to land and fully deserved the criticism it received. There's a lot of backlash that said that Kubo didn't have enough chapters or that it is Shueisha's fault, none of us know the full story. What you can observe, however, is that it has already started to suffer from the middle.
For instance, Ichigo runs all the way down and does almost close to nothing and then has to go all the way up again while pulling another "twist" and instantly dampening his confidence (because he was the reason Yhwach was able to invade and kill the soul king). And then doing it AGAIN with Yhwach having him stab the soul king and saying it is part of the plan.
Ichigo couldn't catch a break this entire arc despite being the "goku" of the series. The large cast of quincies was also wasted, with more than half of them wiped out to serve the elite guards, leaving no room for battles for the other soul reapers. Characters also do braindead actions that worsen the plot, e.g: quincies and shinigami team up to bring down Yhwach which ended up being a whole nothing sandwich because the quincies stupidly got themselves killed. The arc was really saved(barely) by its fights. Mayuri's, Kyoraku's and Urahara's.
Bazz B, and Jugram's plotlines who, I believe, is supposed to run in parallel with Uryu and Ichigo feels terribly undeveloped and makes little to no sense. Uryu's losing at the end AGAIN doesn't make it any better. Ichigo not getting an actual full fight should be illegal.
I think a huge problem with Kubo as a writer (please remember, that I have high respect for his ability as an artist) is that he has too much of an ego that he truly believes all his "plot twists and 200IQ moves" are actually ingenious. It really isn't. And you can see some good potential there in terms of character writing, with some of the most memorable characters in manga, so he can do it if he wants to.
He doesn't really improve as a writer because I believe he is convinced that his Aizen twist was so good that everything that he conjures after falls into that same category. -
@Daz yeah but that was a lie. In God Like You we are told that Yhwach wants eternal war.
He's a peace lover as much as Hitler is a socialist.
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@MetaMario "Uryu uses something called Quincy Final Form fighting Mayuri, right? Literally not even alluded to with the Stern Ritters." They all have it though?
They literally all do the "wings" and halo shit aside from pinches nose in frustration Uryu.
The difference is that Uryu's Letz Stil was one off and the was done by breaking the Sanrei Glove which the Vandenreich have replaced with the Leidenhant that allows repeated usage without power loss.
#Vergoshotfirst #Doflaisapunk
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I just want to see the Hell arc
I never thought I’d want to read Bleach this bad ever again but God Damnit I don’t know why but I’m on the hype train
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@Shiebs Gonna say, at risk of becomign irksome, i do like Bleach for many reasons after hating it voraciously. IDK, maybe I've mellowed with age and little vignettes appeal to me.
#Vergoshotfirst #Doflaisapunk
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I'd say Bleach is good in isolated segments. But taken as a whole it falls apart.
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@Shiebs I really liked Haschwalth and Bazz B's story -- and I have no idea if they're meant to be gay or not because reading it again was uh...interesting.
I also ready a TYBW fan fic where there were actual deaths and some were cool but ultimately, the manga is actually better. I do read a lot of fiction though. I once had a John Grisham phase, so maybe it's my Tite Kubo phase.
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Bleach is a winner in characterization though. Even if a deeper analysis would show that it isn't that well thought out but with the limited scenes that he has, Kubo manages to make his characters shine. For instance, more than half of the captains have become immortalized in pop culture and he was the guy who introduced 13 of them in one chapter and then proceed to flesh them out to become characters you care about. This includes the lieutenants and other characters too, e.g Ragniku, Ikkaku, and Hisashi.
Alot of really creative designs, from the more minimalist approach to character designs to the concept of hollows (Vizards and Arrancars being really cool). Those were Kubo at his peak.
Once again, he does has a good grasp of character writing. The early days of the Subsitute Shinigami arc and Soul society arc were highlights of that.Ichigo, Renji, Rukia and Byakuya showed a lot of heart in the SS arc and you get introduced to characters that's all over the spectrum, from mysterious gin to mad scientist Mayuri to barbarian Kenpachi and they were all good.
Looking back, the formula that made Bleach really explode in popularity is that despite the Soul society being the "villain" of the arc, much like the Ginyu force, Kubo is probably one of the earlier ones to decide that each of them will not be superior or subordinate to another. It didn't take the conventional approach of having one big bad or an antagonist leader, And it wasn't a "good vs bad" kind of arc because not all the captains were bad. I don't think it is possible to come close to ever replicating the Soul Society arc (and its after-effects) in popular media.
He just started to fall off and trail off later in his career, with Quincies and late Arrancar being a mess. And slowly but eventually only cared at parts where he really wants too.
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@zeltrax225 said in Bleach Discussion █: Soul Society, but not!:
Looking back, the formula that made Bleach really explode in popularity is that despite the Soul society being the "villain" of the arc, much like the Ginyu force, Kubo is probably one of the earlier ones to decide that each of them will not be superior or subordinate to another. It didn't take the conventional approach of having one big bad or an antagonist leader, And it wasn't a "good vs bad" kind of arc because not all the captains were bad. I don't think it is possible to come close to ever replicating the Soul Society arc (and its after-effects) in popular media.
That was pretty much ripped from Saint Seiya, though (something that was clear from reading the arc itself, but I consider pretty much confirmed now Kubo mentioned being a fan of the manga).
In both cases you have the main group fighting the upper echelon of the organization (Saints/Shinigami) the main character (Seiya/Ichigo) belongs to despite not being truly affiliated to.
Said upper echelon is composed of 12 Gold Saints/13 Captains who stand on top of this huge army that, despite being the antagonists for the first big arc, are actually the good guys.
Still the fight has to happen to save the main female character (Saori/Rukia), and even though most of the Gold Saints/Captains are shown to be legit good guys who eventually ally with the main character, in the end it is revealed the whole thing happened because three members of said group were traitors who killed the Pope/Central 46 and were ruling the organization while impersonating him/them. Said traitors were: the obviously villain with sadistic tendencies (Deathmask/Gin), the guy who believed the betrayal was just because true justice needs absolute power to be protected (Aphrodite/Tousen), and the trio leader who was revered as the role Saint/Captain but was secretly eeeeevil (Saga/Aizen).
Even the role the Gold Saints play going forward is the same, becoming the good guys who are all the way to the end the standard of absolute strength and to whom the manga keeps going back because of their immense popularity.Kubo did it 10x better, though, since Kurumada has no sense of build up.
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Am I crazy, or was there never any explanation/foreshadowing for the quincy blood silver stuff? Just randomly thought of it.
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Yup. The explanation is Uryu's method was outdated and resulted in power-loss.#Vergoshotfirst #Doflaisapunk
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The BLEACH: Thousand-Year Blood War OST hasn't been announced yet but Aniplex has started uploading preview tracks from it on YouTube. As expect of Sagisu Shirou it sounds absolutely bonkers good.
Separately, Sagisu released an album of BLEACH music that hasn't been used in the series but these are really awesome songs and remixes of previous music. "Shiro's Songbook BLEACH Bankai" has some amazing music so be sure to check it out!
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You know what would have been cool? If after ichigo got his true zanpakuto and returned to soul society, his zan was sealed as a normal katana and at some point he actually released his shikai and we learned what its incantation was. Something like "Split the Heavens" or "Chain the Moon". After going so long with a permanent shikai, it would have been a nice touch.
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Strange to talk about how good Kubo is at character designs and make unique characters, I mean he did a fantastic job with both Soul Society characters and the espada, I still remember them years after having finished and I don’t think I’ll ever forget them
But then we have the lame Fullbringers and the nazi Quincy characters, who I couldn’t name or even remember any of them outside of a few, no unique designs, personalities, or traits absolutely forgettable in every way
Thankfully the original Gotei 13 members he just showed all look bad ass, so maybe he’s back to his usual self
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@Shiebs said in Bleach Discussion █: Soul Society, but not!:
But then we have the lame Fullbringers and the nazi Quincy characters, who I couldn’t name or even remember any of them outside of a few, no unique designs, personalities, or traits absolutely forgettable in every way
How dare you forget our good friend Tsukishima's name?
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Giig is all that matter.
Gigi is love.
Gigi is life.
Gigi is death.
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The semen dude?
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yeah, an incredibly transphobic comment we don't need to be reminded of. Hopefully one of the lines they cut from the anime.
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I disagree. Poor taste? Definitely.
After all, Yumichika was just trying to rile her up, which actually worked.
I was actually surprised that line went nowhere.
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I like to check on the Bleach Brave Souls simulator site ( https://bbs-simulator.com/ )once and again just to check if any new character was released because the art is always good.
They have been giving some awfully overdesigned power-ups to characters in form of Beyond Bankai and Beyond Resurrección forms (I shared the Espada ones some pages ago). They all look way too over the top and nothing like the great designs Kubo made.
But I just looked at it now and... omfg... daaaamnThey give one of those awfully awful designs to Tosen and I am just gushing. Don't know if I am biased but he actually looks amazing (it reminds me of the "half Hollow" look he had when he was seconds away from dying, a look I always wanted to see more clearly depicted)
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Gigi and her girlfriend Bambi need to have the gayest, most lovingly animated scenes.
Yumichika needs to die a horrible death.
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That would definitely be an interesting spin on the whole zombie slave abuse. Leave it to Kubo to spend time on nedlessly deranged stuff like that and on the other hand end the manga with one of the most boring final fights ever seen.
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@Shiebs said in Bleach Discussion █: Soul Society, but not!:
Strange to talk about how good Kubo is at character designs and make unique characters, I mean he did a fantastic job with both Soul Society characters and the espada, I still remember them years after having finished and I don’t think I’ll ever forget them
I remember we would make fun of kubo for 'drawing the air' in every panel. Admittedly, in the Hueco Mundo arc it did make sense that it would be empty, but it just persisted after and never let up.
@access-timeco said in Bleach Discussion █: Soul Society, but not!:
I like to check on the Bleach Brave Souls simulator site ( https://bbs-simulator.com/ )once and again just to check if any new character was released because the art is always good.
They have been giving some awfully overdesigned power-ups to characters in form of Beyond Bankai and Beyond Resurrección forms (I shared the Espada ones some pages ago). They all look way too over the top and nothing like the great designs Kubo made.
But I just looked at it now and... omfg... daaaamnThey give one of those awfully awful designs to Tosen and I am just gushing. Don't know if I am biased but he actually looks amazing (it reminds me of the "half Hollow" look he had when he was seconds away from dying, a look I always wanted to see more clearly depicted)
I remember that. I even said those designs were way too busy and that kubo needed to simplify. It's like all the creative character designs the quincy lacked we crammed into these.
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@Razh said in Bleach Discussion █: Soul Society, but not!:
That would definitely be an interesting spin on the whole zombie slave abuse. Leave it to Kubo to spend time on nedlessly deranged stuff like that and on the other hand end the manga with one of the most boring final fights ever seen.
It's so kinky, I love it. I just want more focus on them, they're great.
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I dunno if it means anything but Giselle was one of the highlights for the Stern Ritters for me personally, she stole the show for a good chunk of chapters. And then Mayuri comes out looking like the sun with his own "zombie" army, it's so extra but really fun
it's that section + Kyoraku's Bankai, that's what i'm waiting for
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@access-timeco oooh, thanks for the link, the art for Brave Souls is pretty cool. Imma play around with it
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So, I had another thought about why the quincy hollow allergy doesn't make sense. Mayuri didn't know about it until now. You know, the guy who performed horrific experiments and research on them? He somehow didn't know they lacked "hollow antibodies". This is why the hollow allergy was just a stupid idea altogether. No real thought put into it.
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If the hell arc has all the former captains does that mean we’ll have 10 Kenpachi’s?
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i would take a hell arc if it means i'll get to see ukitake and unohana again
we were robbed
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I think I figured out why the royal realm bothers me so much. It's not Takamagahara. You know, the place where the major japanese gods reside? We should have seen the equivalent of Izanagi and his children, and others. They should have been the in world inspiration for the japanese pantheon. Instead, it's largely empty save for five dickheads and this asshole stuck in amber. What's the purpose of those giant platforms and the palace if there's nothing there?
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@MetaMario Mayuri and Mask did the heavy lifting for me this arc. Komamura was cool too. The power up made little sense, but I liked his all or nothing determination. Askin was fun too. Well ok, sniper cheese flamingo was fun too, for that grate cheese form alone, pun intended.
Idk, if 'wach could maybe talk less or at least reduce the number of did-you-really-think-s, that would be a vast improvement in the final fight. But I could do without the land mines and Ichigo's bankai getting destroyed once a chapter as well.
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Kyoraku's lieutenant whose name I forgot conveniently having the one power that counters the sniper guy will never not be funny to me.
Also the fight with Not-Thor is basically a rehash of the Yammy's fight, you even got Kenpachi and Byakuya in it doing the same thing. -
@zeltrax225 said in Bleach Discussion █: Soul Society, but not!:
Kyoraku's lieutenant whose name I forgot conveniently having the one power that counters the sniper guy will never not be funny to me.
Also the fight with Not-Thor is basically a rehash of the Yammy's fight, you even got Kenpachi and Byakuya in it doing the same thing.Nanao-chan is her name.
She/Her
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@JulieYBM cool thanks.
I did like the little backstory we got out of Kyoraku and the little flashback of Nemu and Mayuri's. Thinking that we were going to get one for Urahara instead of a one-liner made me pretty disappointed back then.
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@zeltrax225 To be fair, Turn Back the Pendulum was already a pretty hefty backstory for him. He was the POV character, for all intents and purposes.
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@ea77 said in Bleach Discussion █: Soul Society, but not!:
@Daz yeah but that was a lie. In God Like You we are told that Yhwach wants eternal war.
He's a peace lover as much as Hitler is a socialist.
Very late reply, but rereading the arc recently, I think I figured out Yhwach's actual motivation.
Jugram explains that Yhwach needs to keep absorbing souls, otherwise he becomes a vegetable . That's why he needs an eternal war. That's kinda it. No grandiose ambition or whatever. This is all explained in a single, rather abstract chapter, so it's easy to miss or forget.
Also, I just learned Mask de Masculine's groupie is the real Quincy and the wrestler is actually a figment of his imagination. That would've been interesting if Gremmy hadn't made me repulsed with imagination-based powers.
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