I am pretty sure Sabo has amnesia at that point and knows nothing of Luffy.
Notions That Don't Deserve Their Own Threads
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@K.:
This is probably old news, and/or a coincidence but I think it is nice to think that even from back then, there was some sort of plan.
! http://i1.mangareader.net/one-piece/98/one-piece-2422097.jpg
! http://i7.mangareader.net/one-piece/99/one-piece-2422113.jpg
Basically, Sabo even before chapter 100.
Wow that is really cool. Good freakin' catch. I'm chalking it up to coincidence but Oda could easily come out and say yes that was him at any moment!
I am pretty sure Sabo has amnesia at that point and knows nothing of Luffy.
This is true but if Dragon says we aren't going to let that Pirate in the Straw Hat die then Sabo would certainly comply with the boss.
Folks who read One Piece… Just better people. ¯\(ツ)/¯
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No, seriously it doesn't make any sense
It'd mean that Sabo didn't see Luffy at that moment, and neither did he hear Buggy( or Luffy himself, don't remember) yelling his name -
@Shobu:
Now that Kira post that picture, i would love to see the real foreshadowed image of Bartolomeo watching that, i don't look any punk in those two pages sadly D:
I'll take a look at the other panels, hopefully I find something.
Ahh gotcha. Damn, the all black outfit is really contrasted with the rest of the crowd too, like it was meant to stand out.
And he moves to the front of the crowd in case Dragon fails at saving Luffy.Interesting… Nice catch!
Wow that is really cool. Good freakin' catch. I'm chalking it up to coincidence but Oda could easily come out and say yes that was him at any moment!
This is true but if Dragon says we aren't going to let that Pirate in the Straw Hat die then Sabo would certainly comply with the boss.
Thank the random Youtube video that started playing and I heard Sabo - Logue Town, and when I saw the image, needed to confirm over here. It could be a coincidence, I just thought that it wouldn't be completely nonsensical to have Sabo there if Dragon was there as well. It could even be that the Chief Staff character was already thought of, but then Oda turned that character into Sabo.
No, seriously it doesn't make any sense
It'd mean that Sabo didn't see Luffy at that moment, and neither did he hear Buggy( or Luffy himself, don't remember) yelling his nameSabo having amnesia would be why there wasn't any sort of reaction when he saw Luffy or heard his name. It might have been even the trigger that got him closer in the first place.
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@K.:
Sabo having amnesia would be why there wasn't any sort of reaction when he saw Luffy or heard his name. It might have been even the trigger that got him closer in the first place.
When he heard Ace's name, it immediately made him remember his childhood though
Also, I just don't get why Sabo would be there in the first place
"hey, I'm going to see my child. Come with me Sabo so that you can save his life if I somehow can't–---- oh and Garp is my dad"Dragon has been in Loguetown because he knew the next step for Luffy to enter the NW was this city---- it wasn't a coincidence
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When he heard Ace's name, it immediately made him remember his childhood though
That's true, although as the second in command of the revolutionary army if that day was the first time he heard of the names of the Whitebeard commanders….I hope you get my point. The main thing is that Sabo stared at Ace long enough while looking at his picture. What I mean is that, let's say Sabo was all the way on the back, and he hears Straw Hat Luffy, or "some pirate named Luffy" that is going to be executed, the name makes him come close, because of the familiarity.
Also, I just don't get why Sabo would be there in the first place
"hey, I'm going to see my child. Come with me Sabo so that you can save his life if I somehow can't–---- oh and Garp is my dad"Why would that be the conversation at all? Not to mention that no one in the revolutionary army knew about Luffy being Dragon's kid. In fact, when Sabo hears about Ace's death, other members of the army ask Dragon if him being related to Luffy is true.
Him being there is the easiest to explain, especially if we assume that Dragon did not travel by himself (which is possible). Even without that, it is just two members of the revolutionary army at the same place.
Dragon has been in Loguetown because he knew the next step for Luffy to enter the NW was this city–-- it wasn't a coincidence
Whom said it was?
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This is true but if Dragon says we aren't going to let that Pirate in the Straw Hat die then Sabo would certainly comply with the boss.
I think that possible appearance lose all meaning if there is no emotional involvement from either of the brothers. Luffy doesn't know, for Sabo it is just a job so it doesn't bring anything. At least in my opinion.
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I think that possible appearance lose all meaning if there is no emotional involvement from either of the brothers. Luffy doesn't know, for Sabo it is just a job so it doesn't bring anything. At least in my opinion.
As I said in the initial post, it might be coincidence. Or that Sabo's character (the chief of staff part) was there, but it not being Sabo. So I am fine that at best it is just a lookalike, something that I am imposing after knowing Sabo exists and the similarity of their design. I just think that even with all that, it wouldn't break anything at all. Dragon was there, both of them are in the revolutionary army so it still fits that Sabo(or his character) could be there.
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I think that possible appearance lose all meaning if there is no emotional involvement from either of the brothers. Luffy doesn't know, for Sabo it is just a job so it doesn't bring anything. At least in my opinion.
It doesn't have to have any greater meaning. Just that its a nice little trivia point.
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Devil fruit have spirals patterns while smiles have circular.
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Try out my first game! All feedback is welcome, enjoy and thanks. Heroine: Kiku
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Is there anything - ANYTHING - that Fujitora did in Dressrosa that didn't directly contradict or inhibit his ability or intention to reform things? The guy is a walking contradiction. I don't want to see him anymore even though we're going to.
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Is there anything - ANYTHING - that Fujitora did in Dressrosa that didn't directly contradict or inhibit his ability or intention to reform things? The guy is a walking contradiction. I don't want to see him anymore even though we're going to.
He let everything go as far as he could and exposed it to the world before the government could cover it up. I figure he was right on the money to further his agenda.
Or maybe there is something else specifically you are referring to?
Folks who read One Piece… Just better people. ¯\(ツ)/¯
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He let everything go as far as he could and exposed it to the world before the government could cover it up. I figure he was right on the money to further his agenda.
Or maybe there is something else specifically you are referring to?
Maybe he's talking about wanting to capture or even kill the Straw Hats after the fact, and maybe capturing them would make them look like villains too instead of placing blame solely on the Shichibukai?
That's all I can figure.
Spoiler:
"Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."
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@Count:
Maybe he's talking about wanting to capture or even kill the Straw Hats after the fact, and maybe capturing them would make them look like villains too instead of placing blame solely on the Shichibukai?
That's all I can figure.
I'm talking about the fact that with incontrovertible evidence of assloads of wrongdoing on Doffy's part, he still made no moves to arrest him, and did nothing to halt Birdcage which could have killed both civilians and his own soldiers, so he's not only shooting himself in the foot by letting another pirate take down a Shichibukai instead of having to do it himself and strengthening his case that their system should be abolished (which, in letting Luffy do all the work, has the opposite effect of proving how useful pirates are to them) but he's also recklessly endangering the lives of the people he's supposed to be protecting which should, one would think, if he's not one of those absolute justice indoctrinated creeps, be more of a priority to him than simply following orders. If Oda wanted to paint him to look less like Akainu and that there was hope that the Marines could be reformed, Fujitora is the worst example he could have used for it.
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You have not really understood Fuji´s motivation and his actions he took because of it.
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You have not really understood Fuji´s motivation and his actions he took because of it.
I guess not. But I still disagree with how he went about things and do not respect him for whatever his intentions are. He's like the Kidd to Luffy's example as a pirate.
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I think the whole a pirate taking care of a shichibukai is a bad idea to convince people we don't need them. I mean if Marines take care of it you can argue Marines are good enough to not need a pirate for the job but when you needed an ex shibukai and a well known pirate to do it it gives credence to being overwhelmed and needing outside help. I do think Fuji's actions were stupid and risky(remember how close everyone came to dying?) but I doubt it needs another since everyone have their take on it and won't budge much.
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Luffy as the main character had to be the one defeating Doflamingo. Basically same reason why Law lost.
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Thing is, how much of what Doflamingo did was illegal for a Shichibukai? The World Government is extremely lax in enforcing the law with them. Moriah made sailors disappear in the Florian Triangle and didn't get punished. Doflamingo was allowed to have a notorious rogue scientist as his subordinate. The only reason Crocodile's status was revoked so quickly was because Tashigi and Smoker had the authority to do it; who knows if the World Government bureaucracy would have even done anything if a Marine of Smoker's breed wasn't there. Sure, Fujitora could have revoked Doflamingo's title and fought him as soon as the Birdcage went up, but what happened with Smoker on Alabasta was extremely relevant, as we saw in Chapter 793. Smoker and Tashigi weren't the ones who brought down Crocodile but the World Government knew that if the Marines were ineffective in stopping a rogue Shichibukai then the system would cause quite a bit of controversy around the world. So the WG covered up what really happened on Alabasta to pretend that the Marines had everything under control as usual. Smoker wasn't happy and told Fujitora about it, and Fujitora agreed. Leading to him placing his bet on the Straw Hats after seeing the allies they had gained and overseeing a vigilante takedown of a rogue Shichibukai.
It should be noted, of course, that Fujitora is still an extremely reckless and unconventional man. He abuses his Devil Fruit power to ridiculous results and has a gambling problem. But it has remained consistent that he is not selfish and cares more about civilians than most "Absolute Justice" folks, and even though he took a risk by placing his bet on the Straw Hats, he still did what he could to protect the Dressrosa civilians whenever he got an opportunity. I'm not saying you have to be a fan of his reckless attitude, that's a ymmv thing, but I believe that in the end his character arc was rounded out. What adds to a bit of the controversy, imo, is that his motives and plans were not fully laid out in the early stages of the arc. We knew his ultimate goal, but could not predict how his actions were influencing that outcome. Only when Chapter 793 came around did we get a true understanding of why he didn't go after Doflamingo, and though it made for some weird chapter-by-chapter reading (Mangapanda was a major reading choice back then, which didn't help), I think it was a good decision to build up a bit of mystery and then drop that bomb at the same time as when the events on Dressrosa were publicized. It allows the readers to make a much better contrast when they get to compare the outcomes of both Alabasta and Dressrosa at the same time.
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Luffy as the main character had to be the one defeating Doflamingo. Basically same reason why Law lost.
Not arguing that, just saying Fuji could have come up with a better excuse for being a dick.
@Kaido:
Thing is, how much of what Doflamingo did was illegal for a Shichibukai? The World Government is extremely lax in enforcing the law with them. Moriah made sailors disappear in the Florian Triangle and didn't get punished. Doflamingo was allowed to have a notorious rogue scientist as his subordinate. The only reason Crocodile's status was revoked so quickly was because Tashigi and Smoker had the authority to do it; who knows if the World Government bureaucracy would have even done anything if a Marine of Smoker's breed wasn't there. Sure, Fujitora could have revoked Doflamingo's title and fought him as soon as the Birdcage went up, but what happened with Smoker on Alabasta was extremely relevant, as we saw in Chapter 793. Smoker and Tashigi weren't the ones who brought down Crocodile but the World Government knew that if the Marines were ineffective in stopping a rogue Shichibukai then the system would cause quite a bit of controversy around the world. So the WG covered up what really happened on Alabasta to pretend that the Marines had everything under control as usual. Smoker wasn't happy and told Fujitora about it, and Fujitora agreed. Leading to him placing his bet on the Straw Hats after seeing the allies they had gained and overseeing a vigilante takedown of a rogue Shichibukai.
It should be noted, of course, that Fujitora is still an extremely reckless and unconventional man. He abuses his Devil Fruit power to ridiculous results and has a gambling problem. But it has remained consistent that he is not selfish and cares more about civilians than most "Absolute Justice" folks, and even though he took a risk by placing his bet on the Straw Hats, he still did what he could to protect the Dressrosa civilians whenever he got an opportunity. I'm not saying you have to be a fan of his reckless attitude, that's a ymmv thing, but I believe that in the end his character arc was rounded out. What adds to a bit of the controversy, imo, is that his motives and plans were not fully laid out in the early stages of the arc. We knew his ultimate goal, but could not predict how his actions were influencing that outcome. Only when Chapter 793 came around did we get a true understanding of why he didn't go after Doflamingo, and though it made for some weird chapter-by-chapter reading (Mangapanda was a major reading choice back then, which didn't help), I think it was a good decision to build up a bit of mystery and then drop that bomb at the same time as when the events on Dressrosa were publicized. It allows the readers to make a much better contrast when they get to compare the outcomes of both Alabasta and Dressrosa at the same time.
No one's going to argue the WG and Marines aren't inconsistent with their enforcement of policies. Yes, Doflamingo had Celestial Dragon status to get CP0 on his side in spite of all his illegal doings and maybe Fuji didn't have incontrovertible proof the moment he stepped off the ship but once it became plain that Doflamingo was enslaving people (among other things), if Fuji had a shred of human decency in his heart as he claimed, he'd have lopped that psycho's head off to stop his reign of terror, or at the very least placed him and his posse under arrest. You've got to see a bigger picture and while I know great intellects are extremely rare within the universe of One Piece, Fuji really had nothing going on that would suggest he either has fully committed to whatever ideals he was spouting, or has abso-freaking-lutely no idea how to actually achieve those goals and really ought to have sat out until he either did decide to go whole hog or come up with an actual game plan; what's more dangerous, having someone who has no idea what they're doing being in charge and a severe amount of power to throw around recklessly, or letting someone who actually has some idea what they're doing take the wheel even if they're not as strong and capable of enforcing whatever laws or orders they've got? That's just irresponsible and arrogant, and his false humility ain't fooling me. And talk about ingratitude, going after Luffy after all the guy did. Even Smoker had more goddamn class than that. Screw Fujitora.
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@Kaido:
Thing is, how much of what Doflamingo did was illegal for a Shichibukai?
He imprisoned people sent to investigate therefore he considered at least part of what he was doing illegal.
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just saying Fuji could have come up with a better excuse for being a dick.
Even Smoker had more goddamn class than that. Screw Fujitora.
If you have the notion that Fujitora serves only as "testing" character, i agree.
He tested with Doflamingo that Marines are useless when Tenryubito affairs happens.
He tested that his marine group was also useless in the Doflamingo's party held in the Coliseum.
He tested (made the favor) Sabo to train his fruit a little
He tested Luffy's luck when throwing the dice to go to Luffy
He tested Luffy's charisma when he wanted to stop him
He tested his own commitment to perform a job while aiding Doflamingo to beat Law
He tested his own powers lifting ships, rocks and fire
He tested his Kenbunshoku at trying to see Luffy's face.You can't help it, felt like fodder, but is alright… marines at the New World are exactly that.
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No one's going to argue the WG and Marines aren't inconsistent with their enforcement of policies. Yes, Doflamingo had Celestial Dragon status to get CP0 on his side in spite of all his illegal doings and maybe Fuji didn't have incontrovertible proof the moment he stepped off the ship but once it became plain that Doflamingo was enslaving people (among other things), if Fuji had a shred of human decency in his heart as he claimed, he'd have lopped that psycho's head off to stop his reign of terror, or at the very least placed him and his posse under arrest. You've got to see a bigger picture and while I know great intellects are extremely rare within the universe of One Piece, Fuji really had nothing going on that would suggest he either has fully committed to whatever ideals he was spouting, or has abso-freaking-lutely no idea how to actually achieve those goals and really ought to have sat out until he either did decide to go whole hog or come up with an actual game plan; what's more dangerous, having someone who has no idea what they're doing being in charge and a severe amount of power to throw around recklessly, or letting someone who actually has some idea what they're doing take the wheel even if they're not as strong and capable of enforcing whatever laws or orders they've got? That's just irresponsible and arrogant, and his false humility ain't fooling me. And talk about ingratitude, going after Luffy after all the guy did. Even Smoker had more goddamn class than that. Screw Fujitora.
Oh, I believe he was looking at the bigger picture all right.
Sure, he could have easily had Doflamingo arrested. That would have been the best possible action to help the people in the short term. But what happens after that? The Shichibukai system is much more likely to remain in place, because the people have less reason to distrust the World Government's handling of this system, even though the gov. can't always handle it right as shown in Alabasta. Then you have more people like Crocodile and Doflamingo subjugating nations and getting away with it because of their position. However better off the people of Dressrosa would have been had Fujitora taken direct action, how many more nations would have suffered as a result from continued Shichibukai actions?
Again, I'm not saying you have to be a fan of Fujitora's reckless behavior. I personally like it, it makes his character more interesting, especially since we're definitely not meant to view him as heroic. But there is a method to his madness, and the fruits of his actions will become apparent once the Reverie happens.
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He imprisoned people sent to investigate therefore he considered at least part of what he was doing illegal.
Wasn't Law in some trouble for being on Punk Hazard too, or something? If someone working for Doflamingo was based out of there and there was constant interaction going on, it wouldn't make sense for Doflamingo not to get at least a slap on the wrist for it. Or if Law was busted for working with Luffy, Doflamingo working with all kinds of unsavory folks (Kaido, for one, a WAY worse threat than Luffy in terms of amount of power being controlled and wielded) as Joker would land him in hot water. So their being hypocrites and Fuji not being any better than that makes him either a hypocrite or a moron, or both. I'm leaning towards that last one.
@Kaido:
Oh, I believe he was looking at the bigger picture all right.
Sure, he could have easily had Doflamingo arrested. That would have been the best possible action to help the people in the short term. But what happens after that? The Shichibukai system is much more likely to remain in place, because the people have less reason to distrust the World Government's handling of this system, even though the gov. can't always handle it right as shown in Alabasta. Then you have more people like Crocodile and Doflamingo subjugating nations and getting away with it because of their position. However better off the people of Dressrosa would have been had Fujitora taken direct action, how many more nations would have suffered as a result from continued Shichibukai actions?
Again, I'm not saying you have to be a fan of Fujitora's reckless behavior. I personally like it, it makes his character more interesting, especially since we're definitely not meant to view him as heroic. But there is a method to his madness, and the fruits of his actions will become apparent once the Reverie happens.
No. Sorry. No.
Doflamingo was only stopped from butchering a Vice Admiral and his entire squad by the intervention of Aokiji (not even affiliated with the Marines anymore). That alone should have got him thrown in the slammer. Fuji being ignorant of that is one thing but like I said, there was plenty else that constituted grounds for arrest. A clear and present danger that needed to be stopped and stopped by a Marine who could make public statements like, "We're cleaning up this mess, this corruption among our Shichibukai can only be resolved by abolishing their ability to wield this power. The Marines are making changes in a big way! Look at this triumph, Dressrosa, and the world at large! This is what comes of expunging the scourge of piracy from our ranks!" How effective, how powerful, would this statement, and action, have been if it hit the papers? What a way to piss away an opportunity on a platter, and instead let an entire nation believe in the goodness in the heart of a goddamn pirate. Way to undermine their confidence in the Marines even further. Even in microcosm, this was an absolutely colossal failure in every way for his intention of any kind of reform and in the name of helping the common people.
Let's also not forget, this is the fourth goddamn Shichibukai who has royally given the finger to the WG, and for whatever reason, they had also voluntarily elected to covertly execute Moria despite him still answering to them, creating an enemy in the process by letting him get away. Not one bit of that entire idea still made an ounce of sense after Marinford, but they still kept the appointment of the seven intact after the time skip. They clearly have no control over any of these people except for Kuma, and even then, him spending two years guarding the Sunny isn't exactly them doing a good job controlling him up to that point. Whatever deluded idea the Marines have that it's either a necessary evil (which is clearly isn't, objectively) or they're being forced to maintain it because of the Tenryuubito's orders, it's the worst possible thing they could be practicing. If they had stricter policies or lowered their standards for who got in (a weaker but more loyal pirates) then that at least would be an improvement in terms of the problems they're facing, but the real solution is to scrap it altogether. If Fuji truly understood the depth of that, he never would have let this stand. He either has no idea what the hell he's talking about, or is too cowardly or unwilling to actually do what needs to be done. In either case, screw him for being so ineffectual and letting so many people suffer for it. There's no excuse he can give to make up for that.
If the choice is between inept Marines and corrupt Shichibukai, surely the former is the lesser of two evils. Because with the latter you essentially have the inevitable spreading of bad apples into the Marines, adding corruption to their ineptness (Vergo, perfect example of an undercover pirate within the Marines). So don't hand me that it's worth it to have the Shichibukai and that Fuji has any courage of his convictions if he can't make a show of Marine might and righteousness when it counts more than it has in years. He blew that and has no idea how to even get back to zero from where he got relegated to, it was nothing but a huge step backward. His madness is no method and it's laughable that it can be believed. He talks a big game but has less than no clue how to put his money where his mouth is.
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If the choice is between inept Marines and corrupt Shichibukai, surely the former is the lesser of two evils. Because with the latter you essentially have the inevitable spreading of bad apples into the Marines, adding corruption to their ineptness (Vergo, perfect example of an undercover pirate within the Marines). So don't hand me that it's worth it to have the Shichibukai and that Fuji has any courage of his convictions if he can't make a show of Marine might and righteousness when it counts more than it has in years. He blew that and has no idea how to even get back to zero from where he got relegated to, it was nothing but a huge step backward. His madness is no method and it's laughable that it can be believed. He talks a big game but has less than no clue how to put his money where his mouth is.
That would be the World Government's about Alabasta made true, resulting in Doffy's take down have the exact same (lack of) effect as Crocodile. Smoker even pointed this out during the aftermath of Dressrosa, stating that it was like Fujiora was fixing their mistake, or something along those lines. Maybe the average citizen in Dressrosa or Alabasta would get fed up with what happen to their countries, but to the rest of the world, it (and by "it," I mean WG propaganda) would seem like the marines are capable of quickly and efficiently removing rouge warlords and thus the system does more good than harm and should be kept. After
OdaFujiora purposely let Luffy be the one to take down Doflamingo, which was risky and did put many people in danger despite Fuji helping to slow the birdcage, the problems with the warlord system and the WG as a whole came to light, just like Fujiora wanted. -
Also, how much of Fujitora's mission is supposed to be heroic? He's not a protagonist or an ally. The abolishment of the Shichibukai isn't something that'll have an effect on the Straw Hats; rather it's an effect of the Straw Hats' actions in the Grand Line that'll cause the government to be impacted significantly
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@Kaido:
Oh, I believe he was looking at the bigger picture all right.
The shivhibukai system exist because marines were overwhelmed by the power of pirates. Marines proving incompetent would only prove that. Pirates saving the day also help with the argument of pirate being able to be useful. There may have been a point if the country was the one to free itself but pirates saving the day when marines can't is the very foundation of the system and Fujitora went out of his way to prove how effective it was..
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The shivhibukai system exist because marines were overwhelmed by the power of pirates. Marines proving incompetent would only prove that. Pirates saving the day also help with the argument of pirate being able to be useful. There may have been a point if the country was the one to free itself but pirates saving the day when marines can't is the very foundation of the system and Fujitora went out of his way to prove how effective it was..
Not if the pirates are known for actively defying the World Government. Then the government has it even worse with people thinking that its enemy can do a better job of keeping them safe especially when government neglect is the reason why they were in danger to begin with
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@No:
That would be the World Government's about Alabasta made true, resulting in Doffy's take down have the exact same (lack of) effect as Crocodile. Smoker even pointed this out during the aftermath of Dressrosa, stating that it was like Fujiora was fixing their mistake, or something along those lines. Maybe the average citizen in Dressrosa or Alabasta would get fed up with what happen to their countries, but to the rest of the world, it (and by "it," I mean WG propaganda) would seem like the marines are capable of quickly and efficiently removing rouge warlords and thus the system does more good than harm and should be kept. After
OdaFujiora purposely let Luffy be the one to take down Doflamingo, which was risky and did put many people in danger despite Fuji helping to slow the birdcage, the problems with the warlord system and the WG as a whole came to light, just like Fujiora wanted.I know they cover things up, what I am saying is Fujitora should have said 'screw you' to whatever orders he had to clamp down on having anything other than the 'official' story get out, and take it upon himself to make the kind of declaration about forsaking the Shichibukai, that not only were they a gangrenous limb that needed to be excised, but that the Marines didn't need them. Think what kind of confidence that would inspire in people and restore their faith in the still-ineffectual Marines. But no, Dressrosa knows what assholes they are and what saints the Straw Hats are. Despite what the newspapers say, people are going to talk. "Don't trust the Marines, support the Straw Hat fleet!" If he couldn't see (pun intended) what his actions were going to cause, he has no business being a Marine, let alone a goddamn Admiral.
So he got things completely backasswards on top of that. Proving beyond a doubt how worthless the Marines are, how lousy they are at reigning in their own rogue Shichibukai they put in power in the first place and then failed to keep any tabs on, and how reliant they are on the kindness of strangers whom they then turn on despite them being the real heroes. Hypocrites and morons, and Fuji's the new crown prince of them. For shame. If he was supposed to be the first in a new wave of 'reform' Marines, he failed miserably to be any kind of symbol of hope. Smoker and Coby were both poised to spearhead campaigns of change before the time-skip and now Fuji's giving us no reason to think it'll happen (at least not without blood). Any intentions for positive change are contradicted by his shoddy planning and execution. For him to pop up immediately after Smoker has been given the absolute best reason to finally say 'fuck it' and either see if he can get involved in whatever Aokiji's planning or trying to make his own rogue faction of reformers within the Marines, and embarrass the entire idea of making them better, is soul-crushing. Instead of someone who can see Luffy as a spirit of inspiration, he's still hunting him down rather than either trying to work with him or at least keep himself and other Marines off Luffy's back so the Straw Hats can continue their crusade uninhibited. If that character was supposed to symbolize or do anything positive, Oda failed to make that the case.
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I know they cover things up, what I am saying is Fujitora should have said 'screw you' to whatever orders he had to clamp down on having anything other than the 'official' story get out, and take it upon himself to make the kind of declaration about forsaking the Shichibukai, that not only were they a gangrenous limb that needed to be excised, but that the Marines didn't need them. Think what kind of confidence that would inspire in people and restore their faith in the still-ineffectual Marines. But no, Dressrosa knows what assholes they are and what saints the Straw Hats are. Despite what the newspapers say, people are going to talk. "Don't trust the Marines, support the Straw Hat fleet!" If he couldn't see (pun intended) what his actions were going to cause, he has no business being a Marine, let alone a goddamn Admiral.
So he got things completely backasswards on top of that. Proving beyond a doubt how worthless the Marines are, how lousy they are at reigning in their own rogue Shichibukai they put in power in the first place and then failed to keep any tabs on, and how reliant they are on the kindness of strangers whom they then turn on despite them being the real heroes. Hypocrites and morons, and Fuji's the new crown prince of them. For shame. If he was supposed to be the first in a new wave of 'reform' Marines, he failed miserably to be any kind of symbol of hope. Smoker and Coby were both poised to spearhead campaigns of change before the time-skip and now Fuji's giving us no reason to think it'll happen (at least not without blood). Any intentions for positive change are contradicted by his shoddy planning and execution. For him to pop up immediately after Smoker has been given the absolute best reason to finally say 'fuck it' and either see if he can get involved in whatever Aokiji's planning or trying to make his own rogue faction of reformers within the Marines, and embarrass the entire idea of making them better, is soul-crushing. Instead of someone who can see Luffy as a spirit of inspiration, he's still hunting him down rather than either trying to work with him or at least keep himself and other Marines off Luffy's back so the Straw Hats can continue their crusade uninhibited. If that character was supposed to symbolize or do anything positive, Oda failed to make that the case.
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Don't you see? Putting the public opinion of the World Government in jeopardy is exactly what Fujitora intended to do. Could it run the risk of full rebellion? Sure. But Fujitora is only going to be able to uproot the Shichibukai system if he exposes its true dangers. You say that he could have just used a soapbox from beating Doflamingo to proclaim his opposition of the Shichibukai, but do you really think that it would cause the World Government to change anything? Right before the timeskip Sengoku recommended Aokiji as his successor but the WG higher-ups still pushed for Akainu to take the role. At this point in the series, it was clear that the WG is perfectly fine with the pitfalls of the Shichibukai system so long as they maintained a good public image, hence them covering up what happened on Alabasta, casting aside what happened to Crocodile, and essentially doing nothing else. Fujitora had to go a lot, lot deeper if he wanted them to actually be accountable. Whether or not the World Government puts aside their pride enough to fix their broken system or weakens themselves further in controversy has yet to be seen. I'm sure Fujitora wants nothing more than for the WG to come out of this stronger and more honorable, but if they are ultimately eaten alive as a result of their own corruption he'd probably be fine with that too. As he said in Chapter 793, if the World Government can't keep its shit together then it deserves to have its reputation soiled.Spoiler:
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@Kaido:
Not if the pirates are known for actively defying the World Government.
You mean enemies of the goverment fixing problems is a great way to prove that employing enemies of the goverment is a bad idea? I disagree.
**> Then the government has it even worse with people thinking that its enemy can do a better job of keeping them safe especially when government neglect is the reason why they were in danger to begin with
Hence why they need desperate measure like having pirates help. I mean even with a Admiral around they couldn't take care of that problem. They definitely need some help.**
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@Kaido:
! http://static.mangainn.net/mangas/676/138246/014_07_09_2015_08_48_47.png
https://i.imgur.com/H45PjMm.png?1
https://i.imgur.com/YhtNu6s.png?1
Don't you see? Putting the public opinion of the World Government in jeopardy is exactly what Fujitora intended to do. Could it run the risk of full rebellion? Sure. But Fujitora is only going to be able to uproot the Shichibukai system if he exposes its true dangers. You say that he could have just used a soapbox from beating Doflamingo to proclaim his opposition of the Shichibukai, but do you really think that it would cause the World Government to change anything? Right before the timeskip Sengoku recommended Aokiji as his successor but the WG higher-ups still pushed for Akainu to take the role. At this point in the series, it was clear that the WG is perfectly fine with the pitfalls of the Shichibukai system so long as they maintained a good public image, hence them covering up what happened on Alabasta, casting aside what happened to Crocodile, and essentially doing nothing else. Fujitora had to go a lot, lot deeper if he wanted them to actually be accountable. Whether or not the World Government puts aside their pride enough to fix their broken system or weakens themselves further in controversy has yet to be seen. I'm sure Fujitora wants nothing more than for the WG to come out of this stronger and more honorable, but if they are ultimately eaten alive as a result of their own corruption he'd probably be fine with that too. As he said in Chapter 793, if the World Government can't keep its shit together then it deserves to have its reputation soiled.The bottom line is, he could have achieved that effect, with better results, and gotten the people on his side even more, if he'd done it himself. That is the fatal mistake he made, and utterly, irrevocably undermines whatever he claims he was trying to do. If he's wanting to drag the Marines' name through the mud as a means of kicking them in the pants to push for reform, there's way more and way better ways to do it (especially when he knows, from the top down, they're never going to change their minds and feed cover stories to the public to prevent it from getting out). If he opportunistically just used a convenient means of doing so, rather than actively doing this all along, he's still got no idea what he's doing. And he's essentially putting the Marines in a position from which there's no return from that place of ultimate betrayal and failure to the people. The question he needs to ask himself is, WHEN, not IF, WHEN, the Marines go bye-bye, what's supposed to replace them? Instead of actually reforming them, he has sabotaged them to the point they're going to burn to the ground and have to be built back up from zero, with no credibility or resources to get back to where they were before. Lucky for him the Revolutionaries are there to pick up the pieces, and who knows, maybe that's his secret intention, but he could have been more cryptic and hinted at it. But they're not going to be the Marines anymore. If he cares about that, he'd do better operating outside of them like Aokiji, or working directly with the Revolutionaries. He's just being a hypocrite still working within the Marines if he's just going to let them self-destruct.
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The bottom line is, he could have achieved that effect, with better results, and gotten the people on his side even more, if he'd done it himself. That is the fatal mistake he made, and utterly, irrevocably undermines whatever he claims he was trying to do. If he's wanting to drag the Marines' name through the mud as a means of kicking them in the pants to push for reform, there's way more and way better ways to do it (especially when he knows, from the top down, they're never going to change their minds and feed cover stories to the public to prevent it from getting out). If he opportunistically just used a convenient means of doing so, rather than actively doing this all along, he's still got no idea what he's doing. And he's essentially putting the Marines in a position from which there's no return from that place of ultimate betrayal and failure to the people. The question he needs to ask himself is, WHEN, not IF, WHEN, the Marines go bye-bye, what's supposed to replace them? Instead of actually reforming them, he has sabotaged them to the point they're going to burn to the ground and have to be built back up from zero, with no credibility or resources to get back to where they were before. Lucky for him the Revolutionaries are there to pick up the pieces, and who knows, maybe that's his secret intention, but he could have been more cryptic and hinted at it. But they're not going to be the Marines anymore. If he cares about that, he'd do better operating outside of them like Aokiji, or working directly with the Revolutionaries. He's just being a hypocrite still working within the Marines if he's just going to let them self-destruct.
Why do you think the only possible outcome is for the Marines to self-destruct? I offered two outcomes. One, the government is highly weakened from its inability to address its incompetence, or two, it addresses its incompetence by dissolving the Shichibukai and strengthening enough to fight against pirates as the enemy. Fujitora cannot force the Marines to make steep changes while still making them feel good about themselves. You have to make them face the facts and they're not going to do that unless everyone else has the facts.
Also, do you see the Marines as the good guys? Because a lot of your argument feels like you believe that the world is a better place with this current method of government.
Spoiler:
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@Kaido:
Why do you think the only possible outcome is for the Marines to self-destruct? I offered two outcomes. One, the government is highly weakened from its inability to address its incompetence, or two, it addresses its incompetence by dissolving the Shichibukai and strengthening enough to fight against pirates as the enemy. Fujitora cannot force the Marines to make steep changes while still making them feel good about themselves. You have to make them face the facts and they're not going to do that unless everyone else has the facts.
Also, do you see the Marines as the good guys? Because a lot of your argument feels like you believe that the world is a better place with this current method of government.
I'm in favor of them reforming. They're not all bad (Smoker and Coby, if only those few) but the way Fuji's going about things, they'll literally come apart at the seams and have to be rebuilt from the ground up, not to mention all the bloodshed I mentioned in the interim. Imagine the lawlessness that will crop up in that situation. A more gradual reform would be a better approach but the feasibility of that, with the limited brain power and motivation of Fujitora and whoever else is interested in that, doesn't inspire much confidence that they're capable of it. Best case scenario, in the next big conflict, the Revolutionaries capture or defeat their leadership and assume command, and somehow manage to convince those who are still standing to accept their agenda as the new rule of law. That way no resources are lost across the globe and little if any time is spent trying to pick up the pieces and the security their name alone is maintaining is not interrupted.
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I'm in favor of them reforming. They're not all bad (Smoker and Coby, if only those few) but the way Fuji's going about things, they'll literally come apart at the seams and have to be rebuilt from the ground up, not to mention all the bloodshed I mentioned in the interim. Imagine the lawlessness that will crop up in that situation. A more gradual reform would be a better approach but the feasibility of that, with the limited brain power and motivation of Fujitora and whoever else is interested in that, doesn't inspire much confidence that they're capable of it. Best case scenario, in the next big conflict, the Revolutionaries capture or defeat their leadership and assume command, and somehow manage to convince those who are still standing to accept their agenda as the new rule of law. That way no resources are lost across the globe and little if any time is spent trying to pick up the pieces and the security their name alone is maintaining is not interrupted.
So basically the best course of action for Fuji is doing exactly what the wg claims smoker did in alabaster? How would that change anything? We already seen what the outcome of that course is. By simply doing his duty as a marine and not touching the warlord even though he's committing horrible deeds (they aren't horrible deeds, they are excused because of his position) and leaving things to someone who isn't limited by such stupid rules, and showing everyone what happened before the wg could cover it up again it's the only way to let people see what's really going on. Had he stepped up and crushed doffy himself, the only thing he would have accomplished was opening up another warlord seat for some new guy. And there's no guarantee this newcomer will be as nice as doffy was, it could be another wb jr….. Who monkey-man even commented on how many islands he's destroyed and the casualties were too much to count but he is a valuable asset (but guess what, he's unofficially a government official so nothing is going to be done about it). Doing what Fuji did was extremely reckless, yes, but it was the only way to actually bring about change.
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So basically the best course of action for Fuji is doing exactly what the wg claims smoker did in alabaster? How would that change anything? We already seen what the outcome of that course is. By simply doing his duty as a marine and not touching the warlord even though he's committing horrible deeds (they aren't horrible deeds, they are excused because of his position) and leaving things to someone who isn't limited by such stupid rules, and showing everyone what happened before the wg could cover it up again it's the only way to let people see what's really going on. Had he stepped up and crushed doffy himself, the only thing he would have accomplished was opening up another warlord seat for some new guy. And there's no guarantee this newcomer will be as nice as doffy was, it could be another wb jr….. Who monkey-man even commented on how many islands he's destroyed and the casualties were too much to count but he is a valuable asset (but guess what, he's unofficially a government official so nothing is going to be done about it). Doing what Fuji did was extremely reckless, yes, but it was the only way to actually bring about change.
I'm talking about him going off on his own like a Trump tweet, where he says his own thing, regardless of what his orders are or the consequences thereof, taking Akainu's agenda completely out of the equation and forcing their hand. It's not WHAT he should have done (entirely), it's HOW he should have done it. If he'd done it that way it would have had an even better effect because it couldn't be covered up. Right now all it's done is piss off Akainu and not done a goddamn thing to make him think he should reform things. Making the entire world stare at this microcosm of justice being done correctly would really force their hands, either failing to live up to the promise Fujitora should have made and REALLY drag their name through the mud in front of the world and not just Dressrosa, or actually living up to it and forcing them to get their shit together. In this case, it only dragged their name through the mud and did NOTHING to encourage positive change, it just never even entered the equation. Because the public's expectation was never raised, the opportunity to at least bring it into a wider perspective was lost. Him limiting himself to the basest of options or solutions (whatever he thinks they constitute) did exactly zero net good. No eyes of judgment are on Akainu to stop being such an ass because of Fujitora not seizing the greatest opportunity that ever crossed his path.
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I'm talking about him going off on his own like a Trump tweet, where he says his own thing, regardless of what his orders are or the consequences thereof, taking Akainu's agenda completely out of the equation and forcing their hand. It's not WHAT he should have done (entirely), it's HOW he should have done it. If he'd done it that way it would have had an even better effect because it couldn't be covered up. Right now all it's done is piss off Akainu and not done a goddamn thing to make him think he should reform things. Making the entire world stare at this microcosm of justice being done correctly would really force their hands, either failing to live up to the promise Fujitora should have made and REALLY drag their name through the mud in front of the world and not just Dressrosa, or actually living up to it and forcing them to get their shit together. In this case, it only dragged their name through the mud and did NOTHING to encourage positive change, it just never even entered the equation. Because the public's expectation was never raised, the opportunity to at least bring it into a wider perspective was lost. Him limiting himself to the basest of options or solutions (whatever he thinks they constitute) did exactly zero net good. No eyes of judgment are on Akainu to stop being such an ass because of Fujitora not seizing the greatest opportunity that ever crossed his path.
So…. my apologies but I've been a little lit since I started and I'll get a bit more into your counter-claims tomorrow at work but, exactly how would the wg stepping in and stopping a power they have put in place and allowed to run amuck for all these years attone for their mistake, other than bringing their mistake to light and apologising for it? Before we continue with all this answer the things I left a question mark for in the previous post.
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"Out with the old, in with the new". I'm no marketing expert but I know that's something people like to hear when it comes with a promise of something better, or at least the pretense of it (look how Trump got elected). Fuji neglected to make a campaign promise on behalf of the Marines that he, while not authorized to do, ought to have done because of what it would have triggered. Maybe he's just not smart enough to think that broadly (not surprising) but that would have done what he intended a lot more loudly and impossible to ignore. He dropped a big ball and he has dick-all to show for it. I hope he's proud of himself for being so ineffectual and ending up shooting himself in the foot.
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Wow, two filled pages talking about filler and recycled motions in the OPworld.
Got to say and declare Condoriano as the best filler evah, surpassing the likes of Sanji, Robin and Jinbe current spotlights. That's something that only geniuses could do… to put some character growth for Luffy, in that very arc, the man lied, faked and acted like Jim Carrey, truly the best Luffy. That's a supportive character for ya.
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I'm talking about him going off on his own like a Trump tweet, where he says his own thing, regardless of what his orders are or the consequences thereof, taking Akainu's agenda completely out of the equation and forcing their hand. It's not WHAT he should have done (entirely), it's HOW he should have done it. If he'd done it that way it would have had an even better effect because it couldn't be covered up. Right now all it's done is piss off Akainu and not done a goddamn thing to make him think he should reform things. Making the entire world stare at this microcosm of justice being done correctly would really force their hands, either failing to live up to the promise Fujitora should have made and REALLY drag their name through the mud in front of the world and not just Dressrosa, or actually living up to it and forcing them to get their shit together. In this case, it only dragged their name through the mud and did NOTHING to encourage positive change, it just never even entered the equation. Because the public's expectation was never raised, the opportunity to at least bring it into a wider perspective was lost. Him limiting himself to the basest of options or solutions (whatever he thinks they constitute) did exactly zero net good. No eyes of judgment are on Akainu to stop being such an ass because of Fujitora not seizing the greatest opportunity that ever crossed his path.
If you're talking about Fujitora stopping Doflamingo, then I disagree. What Crocodile did in Alabasta was no secret, the only lie that was that Smoker took him down. Blackbeard was publicly made Croc's replacement, and Smoker was supposed to publicly be promoted for his "actions" before he kindly and respectfully turned his superiors down. Yet, despite Smoker being one of the most vocal opponents of the Warlord System in the entire series, no change was brought about. Yes, Smoker didn't have much authority at the time, but I really doubt the WG was able to stop Smoker of all people from speaking his views on the system and what happened, even if he couldn't tell the world that Luffy did it. Heck, Smoker confiding in Fuji (sorry, I'm having some trouble posing a picture of it, but it's in a flashback during chapter 793) is one of the reasons he did what he did. Also, judging from Smokey's reaction, Fuji did take the best course of action for what he was trying to do.
Again, if Fujitora did take down Doffy, that would be the exact same as the WG's lies in Alabasta, which would not paint the Warlord System or the Marines that upheld it in a negative light. Admitted, I'm not sure why that is in the OP world, but my best guess is that the general public understands that giving pirates some form of authority is bound to result in at least a few abusing that power, but it's acceptable if the marines are capable of taking care of the bad apples. Now, if your point is something like Fuji's actions did more harm than good and it wasn't worth it to advance the "abolition of the WS" cause, then that's completely different than what I'm talking about here and I apologize for misinterpreting you lol. But what Fuji did here, showing the world that the marines needed a traitor and an infamous island burner (Enies Lobby) to take care of a psychopath that they allowed to gain and hold power, would likely make more than a few people go "hey, maybe this whole pardoning pirates to fight for the good guys thing isn't such a great idea and shouldn't have been preserved by the WG for so long."
The WG does need to take some blame here. Dat Mango already pointed this out, but we were first introduced to Weevil by a conversation that went something like this:
"Admiral Kizaru, Warlord Weevil just took out another former Whitebeard ally!"
"Oh, good…"
"But sir, he causes mass destruction and countless civilian casualties wherever he goes!"
"Well, yeah, but...he's strong" ¯_(ツ)_/¯Now, Kizaru is not the one going around and blowing islands up here. However, he is fully aware of someone that is, has both the power and the authority to stop them at any time, and yet does nothing because Weevil's a Warlord. Also, when we see Buggy again after the timeskip, he's boasting to his new crew that whatever they do when hired by someone who wants a pirate mercenary will become legal because they work for a Warlord. That is the kind of stuff the likes of Fujitora and Smoker have a issue with here. The Warlords are the ones committing the crimes, but WG needs to be held accountable for ignoring and overlooking them.
"Out with the old, in with the new". I'm no marketing expert but I know that's something people like to hear when it comes with a promise of something better, or at least the pretense of it (look how Trump got elected). Fuji neglected to make a campaign promise on behalf of the Marines that he, while not authorized to do, ought to have done because of what it would have triggered. Maybe he's just not smart enough to think that broadly (not surprising) but that would have done what he intended a lot more loudly and impossible to ignore. He dropped a big ball and he has dick-all to show for it. I hope he's proud of himself for being so ineffectual and ending up shooting himself in the foot.
But that message requires the people to be fed up with the old and, prior to the birdcage and finding out he had been abducting their loved ones via toy transformation, the people of Dressrosa LOVED Doflamingo and we're giving no reason to think that the rest of the world hated him. Just look at the uproar when they thought he had resigned and the crowd's collective looks of relief when CP-0 told them that the news article was a mistake. From what we saw in the manga, I don't believe Fuji even knew about Doffy's worst crimes (enslaving the Dwarfs, the toy thing, razing the islands of guys who proposed to Baby-5, etc.) The worst thing Fujitora saw when he got there was all of the gladiator stuff, but I doubt that would have been go enough of a reason for the WG OR the public, since the latter had no issue with it for years (their hatred for Rebecca comes to mind).
Going back to the topic of Fuji taking down Doffy early, think about how would that have looked to the people of Dressrosa. The king they adored being arresting for continuing to do what he had done this whole time. Would they have praised Fujitora and seen how flawed the Warlord system was, or would they continue to have liked the system since it allowed their king to continue his benevolent (lol no) rule and been pissed at that stupid Admiral who overstepped his bounds for no good reason? Ironically, giving the context, removing Doflamingo from power before how much of a complete monster he was became clear could very well make the WG/marines look bad without the same happening to the Warlord system. Removing him AFTER how much of a complete monster he was became clear would have won Fujitora the support of Dressrosa, but would allow the WG to enjoy the comfort of another Alabasta that didn't make them look bad and didn't cause the rest of the world to condemn the Warlord System. Fujitora's own actions could be using against him in a "see, we can efficiently take care of the bad parts of this system, Fujitora's just humble" way, regardless of what Fuji says (because he DID take care of the problem). Letting two pirates, one of whom declared war on the WG once, remove the murderous "ally" kept in power by the WG makes the Warlord system look terrible and the WG look terrible for maintaining it. That's why Fujitora bowed to King Riku. To drive the point home that the marines and WG f*cked up and what they had been doing in this case was wrong.
Sorry if you got tired of me saying Warlord all the time, it's just easier to spell than Shichibukai, lol.
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If that's the best he can do that's still inexcusably pathetic and too little, too late. His strength could and should have been put to use elsewhere but he wants to believe in the non-existent capability of the Marines to reform. Being a hypocrite and letting a pirate take care of something to send the message that they shouldn't be relying on pirates to clean up their messes…WTF. If he'd wanted to he could have interrogated anyone he wanted and gotten any info he was looking for, or even just asked Law since he at least needed to take him in for questioning regarding whether he was in violation of the terms of his Shichibukai status agreement. There's no excuse for him being that stupid about his job. If he'd just done that then everything you said about the people not supporting his position is utterly irrelevant and a waste of breath since that would have been grounds to arrest Doffy and Sugar and all the others and thereby liberate them and their memories.
Would this (him going rogue and making unauthorized statements and promises) have gotten him kicked out of the Marines? Probably. But look at the position he's in now; he might as well have been for all the good it did him, and Akainu's not going to do a damn thing in response to this so his goal didn't even come to fruition anyway. If he'd gone whole hog with it, even if he got fired or arrested, him being outside of their control would free him up to find some people who actually WOULD change things and aligned with his agenda (and two of their representatives just happened to be on Dressrosa at the time anyway...pretty big waste of opportunity to have them touch bases with him.) He lost this one because of his poor planning. Maybe he had too much unjustified faith in an irreparably broken system, but I can't sympathize because faith is for gullible people. Of course it doesn't seem like he's that naive because he said something about being blind letting him not have to see all the ugliness in the world, but if he's too optimistic about the organization he belongs to, he really needs to open his freaking eyes.
Whatever he's trying to do, being in the Marines ain't going to do it. You can never really see the flaws if you're on the inside. You have to be on the outside looking in to see it and be objective. Him not jumping ship altogether after seeing how bad he effed up shows that he's not learned a damn thing about this complete failure of his.
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Complete failure of his? Lol the outcome of his bet turned out in his favor and the broadcast afterwards was his victory …he left the fleet admiral no option but to face the warlord problem head on. If aka does nothing after being publicly humiliated then he is an incompetent leader. He probably noticed this and at that point couldn't even fire Fuji, if he had them it would cause the what lose even more face. The man's speech was about the failure of the wg being able to protect the country from pirates because of the very rules they set in place themselves. Normal citizens would lose even more faith in the govt after seeing the admiral on their side being punished for pointing it out. Fuji came out on top in this situation there was no failure or shooting himself in the for whatsoever.
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I don't see how Fuji proved the flaws when he had a pirate do the WG job which is the whole point of the shichibukai system. A pirate fucked up but it was a pirate who fixed it.
It would make sense if the people of the country saved themselves but when pirates are the one to do it takes the credibility of the government much more than the one of the shichibukai.
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I don't see how Fuji proved the flaws when he had a pirate do the WG job which is the whole point of the shichibukai system. A pirate fucked up but it was a pirate who fixed it.
It would make sense if the people of the country saved themselves but when pirates are the one to do it takes the credibility of the government much more than the one of the shichibukai.
Fair enough, do you consider doffys crew to be stronger than the marines? Had they sent Fuji and a handful of competent fighters or the three admirals and the vice admirals if they felt like going Overkill mode, would the the marines have lost this fight?
The flaws I feel like was pointed out was: they are the ones who allowed doffy to run amuck and due to the rules of the warlord system, they were powerless to stop him. Had it not been for people not limited by said rules, an entire country would have been destroyed and guess what, the guy responsible is still a free man because the wg says so. -
Fair enough, do you consider doffys crew to be stronger than the marines? Had they sent Fuji and a handful of competent fighters or the three admirals and the vice admirals if they felt like going Overkill mode, would the the marines have lost this fight?
The flaws I feel like was pointed out was: they are the ones who allowed doffy to run amuck and due to the rules of the warlord system, they were powerless to stop him. Had it not been for people not limited by said rules, an entire country would have been destroyed and guess what, the guy responsible is still a free man because the wg says so.Fuji not taking care of Doffly was his own decision. Normally they handle that stuff. That's why Aokiji was going to be dispose of Crock after Smokey message or that Fuji was sent to Dressrosa(and beat the hell out of Law) or even why Doffly kept erasing those investigating him(which he wouldn't if he could do whatever).
So no they were not powerless to stop him (one of the VA even question him). Fuji decided to gamble on making the pirate an hero. A story that tells the kingdom not all pirates are bad and the government is not reliable since it's best agents barely made a difference.Ift is about getting rid of the government it makes sense if it about getting rid of shibukai I don't think it does.
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If that's the best he can do that's still inexcusably pathetic and too little, too late. His strength could and should have been put to use elsewhere but he wants to believe in the non-existent capability of the Marines to reform.
Has Fujitora ever shown any intent of wanting to reform the marines/WG system? He obviously disagrees with their methods/opinion of themselves, but as far as I can tell all of his efforts have been solely with the goal of abolishing the Warlord system in mind.
Being a hypocrite and letting a pirate take care of something to send the message that they shouldn't be relying on pirates to clean up their messes…WTF.
The message was more along the lines of "We shouldn't ally ourselves with pirates and give them authority". Doflamingo wasn't cleaning up any messes, he was just chilling on Dressrosa with the blessing of the marines. Given the history between Luffy and the WG, I sincerely doubt that they painted his actions as heroic, especially since he's still wanted dead or alive. It's more likely that the official story was that Luffy took out an enemy to further his own ambitions (which has some truth to it, given the whole Kaido thing) and just happened to do something good as a result. Which makes the Warlord system and the marines look bad because if you need one of your enemies to save you from one of your friends, you probably shouldn't have been friends with that person for so long. And need a different way to make friends.
The Warlord system was not fixing anything here. It was the sole reason for the problem. Again, the solution was a wanted criminal beating up a government official.
If he'd wanted to he could have interrogated anyone he wanted and gotten any info he was looking for,
I doubt even the Dofflamingo Family's grunts would spill their guts if asked a few simple questions, and I don't believe anything in the story has painted him as someone willing to use anything extreme methods like torture to get information out of people. Given his discussions with Smoker and statements about wanting to prioritize, figuring out how many people need to be protected, I believe we're supposed to see him as someone with better morals than Akainu.
or even just asked Law since he at least needed to take him in for questioning regarding whether he was in violation of the terms of his Shichibukai status agreement. There's no excuse for him being that stupid about his job. If he'd just done that then everything you said about the people not supporting his position is utterly irrelevant and a waste of breath since that would have been grounds to arrest Doffy and Sugar and all the others and thereby liberate them and their memories.
But Law never knew about about the whole deal with Sugar and the toys. He just wanted revenge on Doflamingo for what happened to Corazon. The SHs only found out about it through meeting the Dwarfs and Thunder Solider/Kyros. Operation SOB had nothing to do with Law's plans. Heck, Law didn't even know where the SMILE factory was when they got to Dressrosa; part of his plan involved finding its location, so he didn't have any solid proof to give to Fujitora.
Would this (him going rogue and making unauthorized statements and promises) have gotten him kicked out of the Marines? Probably. But look at the position he's in now; he might as well have been for all the good it did him, and Akainu's not going to do a damn thing in response to this so his goal didn't even come to fruition anyway.
How would unauthorized statements made the Warlord system look bad? I mean, he could have publicly condemned it, but I don't think that would have much impact if it was just his own opinion and there were no actions or evidence behind it. Also, why does Akainu need to be made to do anything? If enough of the WG's allies start to call for the end of the Warlord system, then they might start to consider it if they're afraid of losing face.
That's part of the reason why I'm arguing for this so strongly. I believe Fujitora's actions were meant to be seen as the correct thing to do in order to further the anti-warlord agenda (Smoker certainly does) and that absolving the Warlord system will be brought up as a serious topic at the reviere.
If he'd gone whole hog with it, even if he got fired or arrested, him being outside of their control would free him up to find some people who actually WOULD change things and aligned with his agenda (and two of their representatives just happened to be on Dressrosa at the time anyway…pretty big waste of opportunity to have them touch bases with him.) He lost this one because of his poor planning. Maybe he had too much unjustified faith in an irreparably broken system, but I can't sympathize because faith is for gullible people. Of course it doesn't seem like he's that naive because he said something about being blind letting him not have to see all the ugliness in the world, but if he's too optimistic about the organization he belongs to, he really needs to open his freaking eyes.
Again, Fujitora's focus has been on getting rid of the Warlord System, not much else. Allying himself with the revolutionaries or even becoming a bounty hunter would have nixed any chance of his actions having any weight behind them. "An Admiral of the marines just bowed to the King? Wow, I guess they did make a mistake here" vs. "That guy deserted the marines, does he seriously think we're going to take his views on what they should do seriously?"
Whatever he's trying to do, being in the Marines ain't going to do it. You can never really see the flaws if you're on the inside. You have to be on the outside looking in to see it and be objective. Him not jumping ship altogether after seeing how bad he effed up shows that he's not learned a damn thing about this complete failure of his.
He's trying to get rid of the Warlord System and using his potion as an Admiral to make the WG and marines look bad for maintaining it (which they still do). If he was an enemy/traitor/deserter to the marines, no one would take his opinions or viewpoints on how the WG should change seriously since he stabbed them in the back. Sorry if I'm repeating myself here.
I don't see how Fuji proved the flaws when he had a pirate do the WG job which is the whole point of the shichibukai system. A pirate fucked up but it was a pirate who fixed it.
But acording to the Warlord system, Luffy was the f*cker and Doflaminigo was the fixer. Keeping it would mean getting more Doffys, not more Luffys, and Luffy is still a "bad guy." Going by what the general populace knows about him, Luffy is an island burner and a ringleader for one of the worst prison breaks in history, releasing countless dangerous criminals. This event would be seen as an exception, and not something done out of the good of Straw Hat's heart.
So no they were not powerless to stop him (one of the VA even question him). Fuji decided to gamble on making the pirate an hero. A story that tells the kingdom not all pirates are bad and the government is not reliable since it's best agents barely made a difference.Ift is about getting rid of the government it makes sense if it about getting rid of shibukai I don't think it does.
Yeah, but then it would have become another Alabasta. What Crocodile did wasn't kept secret, only who stopped him, and apparently this causes no one to question the WG or the Warlord system. I'm not completely sure why, admittedly, but that's how it is.
At the end of the day here, Doflamingo was the Warlord. He is the one people are going to point to and say, "Do we want more people like that given a pass by the WG if they can't be controlled?" If Luffy was offered a position as a Warlord, then I would be in complete agreement that what Fujitora did was counterproductive. But he wasn't and he never will be, because the majority of the world sees him as a villain too. A villain who stopped a worse villain, but a villain nonetheless.
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Not to mention even if the marines wanted to bring doffy down, and the wg agreed. It would never happen. The cestial dragons were too busy shitting them selves about doffy knowing some super secret thing to take any action against him. I completely forgot about that
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@No:
Again, Fujitora's focus has been on getting rid of the Warlord System, not much else. Allying himself with the revolutionaries or even becoming a bounty hunter would have nixed any chance of his actions having any weight behind them. "An Admiral of the marines just bowed to the King? Wow, I guess they did make a mistake here" vs. "That guy deserted the marines, does he seriously think we're going to take his views on what they should do seriously?"
And this is what he should have done. Take care of the mess and bow. Proved that marines can do better than rely on scums while acknowledging the damage the shichibukai caused. That's a real invitation to banish the system while rely on scum who destroys and give misery when they are good marines there that can do an honest job and should never associate with those rascals.
What he proved was that even with the best of the best the good guys can't do their jobs and need help from the scums.
! But acording to the Warlord system, Luffy was the f*cker and Doflaminigo was the fixer. Keeping it would mean getting more Doffys, not more Luffys, and Luffy is still a "bad guy." Going by what the general populace knows about him, Luffy is an island burner and a ringleader for one of the worst prison breaks in history, releasing countless dangerous criminals. This event would be seen as an exception, and not something done out of the good of Straw Hat's heart.
There is no reason at all that would be the case they are both pirates and the shichibukais are simpy pirates. What was proved was that they picked the wrong pirates not that pirates should not be used.Yeah, but then it would have become another Alabasta. What Crocodile did wasn't kept secret, only who stopped him, and apparently this causes no one to question the WG or the Warlord system. I'm not completely sure why, admittedly, but that's how it is.
The problem was that it was swept under the rug and Smokey was the heroic face. The broadcast make sure it cannot be swept and the apolgy make sure he is not an hero. What made the marines look non-heroic was Fuji recognizing their fault not who beat the shit out of Doffly. He shoud have coupled that with beating the shit out of Doffly to prove they can do better rather than prove their incompetence.
At the end of the day here, Doflamingo was the Warlord. He is the one people are going to point to and say, "Do we want more people like that given a pass by the WG if they can't be controlled?" If Luffy was offered a position as a Warlord, then I would be in complete agreement that what Fujitora did was counterproductive. But he wasn't and he never will be, because the majority of the world sees him as a villain too. A villain who stopped a worse villain, but a villain nonetheless.
To which when they ask what is the alternative Fuji will have squat to propose because he had to use a pirate to do the job when both an admiral and VA was there.
That's the basis of the system. -
And this is what he should have done. Take care of the mess and bow. Proved that marines can do better than rely on scums while acknowledging the damage the shichibukai caused. That's a real invitation to banish the system while rely on scum who destroys and give misery when they are good marines there that can do an honest job and should never associate with those rascals.
What he proved was that even with the best of the best the good guys can't do their jobs and need help from the scums.
! But acording to the Warlord system, Luffy was the f*cker and Doflaminigo was the fixer. Keeping it would mean getting more Doffys, not more Luffys, and Luffy is still a "bad guy." Going by what the general populace knows about him, Luffy is an island burner and a ringleader for one of the worst prison breaks in history, releasing countless dangerous criminals. This event would be seen as an exception, and not something done out of the good of Straw Hat's heart.
There is no reason at all that would be the case they are both pirates and the shichibukais are simpy pirates. What was proved was that they picked the wrong pirates not that pirates should not be used.The problem was that it was swept under the rug and Smokey was the heroic face. The broadcast make sure it cannot be swept and the apolgy make sure he is not an hero. What made the marines look non-heroic was Fuji recognizing their fault not who beat the shit out of Doffly. He shoud have coupled that with beating the shit out of Doffly to prove they can do better rather than prove their incompetence.
To which when they ask what is the alternative Fuji will have squat to propose because he had to use a pirate to do the job when both an admiral and VA was there.
That's the basis of the system.If funitora had beat doflamingo the bigger part of his message would have forgotten. People would have been so grateful to the WG, that the faults in the warlord system woukd get swept under the rug. Also it's not like he did nothing the whole time, a lot of his efforts went to protecting the citizens.
Chapter 437 Discussion after franky decides to join the Strawhats:
So who think Usopp is inside that duffelbag?
H x H Chimera Ant Arc / OP Manga Spoiler
Spoiler:
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@Long:
If funitora had beat doflamingo the bigger part of his message would have forgotten. People would have been so grateful to the WG, that the faults in the warlord system would get swept under the rug. Also it's not like he did nothing the whole time, a lot of his efforts went to protecting the citizens.
So the televised event that got him banned and was gigantic news would have been forgotten an people would not remember what they saw on TV(rubbles and marines on their knees) but now they will definitely remember becauseFuji didn't act against the warlord? I fully disagree. Akainu is pretty adamant they can't cover anything because they went to TV. I think a marine that has saved you but feel ashamed of what misery was bought is more convincing than the one that failed at neutralizing the threat.
Nothing exists; even if something exists, nothing can be known about it. Even if something can be known about it,
