Let's make sociological critique of Tail Spin and Mighty Max.
While at it we'll delve into "Why Tom & Jerry is bad for kids"
To be honest, I'm not too familiar with Tail Spin and Mighty Max, but I'm pretty sure no one actually dies in them.
But Tom was executed in one episode, which was actually pretty messed up.
You see, that's the point.
No one actually dies in Tail Spin, but nontheless, kids are thrown into life-threatening situations to save the day.
Same with shounen manga. Young children are hardly ever killed on page either, since it does raise concerns with PTA and thus avoided.
But they struggle through dire life & death situations.
Because, unlike you reading from an adult POV, the books are written for low-teens who want to see low-teens save the world.
You see, that's the point.
No one actually dies in Tail Spin, but nontheless, kids are thrown into life-threatening situations to save the day.Same with shounen manga. Young children are hardly ever killed on page either, since it does raise concerns with PTA and thus avoided.
But they struggle through dire life & death situations.
A few things:
1. Even if the kids don't die in Naruto or Hunter x Hunter (although kids have died in it), they're still exposed to death and other traumatizing situations.
2. With a lot of Western cartoons, I don't think anyone buys that anyone is going to actually die. They're light-hearted, consequence-free adventure series. Whereas the manga I listed tend to take themselves very seriously and you really do believe that these characters could die.
3. As I said, I'm not that familiar with Tail Spin or Mighty Max. Maybe I might have a problem with them if I watched them today.
Because, unlike you reading from an adult POV, the books are written for low-teens who want to see low-teens save the world.
Do they? Is it really a necessity? Kids don't seem to have a hard time rooting for Indiana Jones or James Bond.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Oh, and you think it's dumb for me to make sociological critiques of these manga, while many of these authors are, in fact, trying to make sociological critiques in their manga. Okay, sure.
And the lamb lies down on Broadway
I don't think it's dumb, but I don't think it should be taken so seriously.
Yes, they are trying to get a message across, but to a younger audience. Not you.
It is, by far and far most, prioritized to entertain kids.
I see absolutely no difference between say… Avatar cartoon series, and standard shounen manga.
As for rooting for older men... where did you get the idea that young Japanese kids are rooting for them?
Thirty years of market research have shown larger number of young Japanese manga fans prefer children to be the heroes. Older heroes start becoming popular with mid to late teens.
Do they? Is it really a necessity? Kids don't seem to have a hard time rooting for Indiana Jones or James Bond.
They actually did make a series with a young Indy just so kids would like it better.
I don't think it's dumb, but I don't think it should be taken so seriously.
The authors seem to take their manga seriously as far as the stakes involved. And if they will, then so will I.
Yes, they are trying to get a message across, but to a younger audience. Not you.
It is, by far and far most, prioritized to entertain kids.
Well, first I must congratulate the Japanese for having much thicker skin than our American children and being able to handle such relatively mature material.
But regardless of who it's aimed at, I'm just saying that this is my problem with certain manga, which keeps me from enjoying them as much I could.
I see absolutely no difference between say… Avatar cartoon series, and standard shounen manga.
Avatar could never get anywhere even remotely close to the level of violence in Hunter x Hunter.
As for rooting for older men… where did you get the idea that young Japanese kids are rooting for them?
Thirty years of market research have shown larger number of young Japanese manga fans prefer children to be the heroes. Older heroes start becoming popular with mid to late teens.
If that's what side their bread is buttered on, so be it. But I reiterate, I wouldn't have a problem with this if either a) the characters were a bit older, like Luffy (hey, waddya know, that's the most popular manga series in Japan!) or b) there was a good and understandable reason for kids being put in these situations.
Oh, and I guess I'll also say that this pet peeve is not exclusive to manga. I'm sure I'd have a problem with it any form of media, regardless of origin.
And the lamb lies down on Broadway
The authors seem to take their manga seriously as far as the stakes involved. And if they will, then so will I.
Well, first I must congratulate the Japanese for having much thicker skin than our American children and being able to handle such relatively mature material.
But regardless of who it's aimed at, I'm just saying that this is my problem with certain manga, which keeps me from enjoying them as much I could.
Haha, while you guys were watching G.I. Joe and He-man, I was watching Gundam (pessimisstic war drama), Fist of the North Star, and Lupin IIIrd.
Those were actually aimed at higher age group than mine, but I sure as hell enjoyed it. 
All my favorites were adult heroes (City Hunter, Cat's Eye, Space Cobra as well) so my tastes weren't very typical for my age. With a few exception like Kinnikuman, most preferred younger heroes like Captain Tsubasa, Saint Saiya, and Goku. There were far more mature heroes back then though. Jump slowly shifted younger and younger based on polls.
As for the second half of that… well, that's basically the issue here isn't it?
I understand why it bothers you, but keep in mind it's not really meant for you as well.
Avatar could never get anywhere even remotely close to the level of violence in Hunter x Hunter.
Granted, but then again, HxH is more violent than your average shounen manga in general to begin with.
Haha, while you guys were watching G.I. Joe and He-man, I was watching Gundam (pessimisstic war drama), Fist of the North Star, and Lupin IIIrd.
Those were actually aimed at higher age group than mine, but I sure as hell enjoyed it.
Dude, don't talk to me about that. I watched South Park as a kid (tremendously vulgar and often violent) sometimes to my parents chagrin. But that's just it, I was going outside my demographic and assuming all the risks that came with it. No way in hell South Park was ever aimed at kids.
As for the second half of that… well, that's basically the issue here isn't it?
I understand why it bothers you, but keep in mind it's not really meant for you as well.
Just because it's not aimed at me doesn't change what I feel is some fairly creepy subtext. And there's tons of outright terrible shit in the Western world that's aimed at kids. And just because they too aren't "aimed at me" doesn't change that they're terrible.
And dude, if you want adults taking children's cartoons way too seriously, hop on over to any MLP thread/forum.
Granted, but then again, HxH is more violent than your average shounen manga in general to begin with.
It's still in the same magazine and it's still aimed at children.
And the lamb lies down on Broadway
And dude, if you want adults taking children's cartoons way too seriously, hop on over to any MLP thread/forum.
I would rather walk on a road of burning charcoal then stick my feet in a bucket full of lime.
It's still in the same magazine and it's still aimed at children.
What I mean is, HxH is an exception and not a norm.
I don't recall any kids in Tail Spin other than Kit Cloud Kicker and Molly. Wasn't it mostly about Baloo?
I was trying to get a buddy of mine into anime more, because all he's seen is a few ghibli movies and the toonami shows.
his main complaints about other anime was that the whole "someone-san is rushing in with all his might!! how will he survive!? WHAT?? he's using his super move!" "someone-san…" "someone-kun!" "someone-san!!!" etc.
basically, the greek chorus-type thing a lot of anime has going on. I don't really watch much anime, but I realized that I get pissed off at that shit, too. it slows things down waaay to much, and is a prime example of telling instead of showing.
I feel like in manga, while it happens, it's a lot easier to skim over and thus more digestible...
I have no idea what in the world you are talking about…
Are you talking about the omniscient narrator? Or some guy in the sidelines narrating everything like Speedwagon?
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I have no idea what in the world you are talking about…
Are you talking about the omniscient narrator? Or some guy in the sidelines narrating everything like Speedwagon?
Yea, I think Lith was talking about how each character seems to pretentiously narrate all their actions.
A certain scene involving two ninja screaming each other's name during their fight came into mind
I was mainly talking about the Speedwagons of anime. No, you don't need to tell me what he just did. I saw it. I just saw it with my own eyes. yes, it was impressive. I could tell, because I just saw it.
here's a recent example:
!
Now, Kensei's little lines of dialogue on the bottom left seem harmless enough, and in manga form, they are. they take up very little page space, and you glance over them in a hurry. they're completely superfluous, because in the next page Lugh thinks "He shattered my ribs, but I've got his arm!" which itself is kinda superfluous. the art is pretty clear that it was a damn good hit, but now Lugh grabbed his arm.
But if it had been animated, the main event of the page, Takeda's punch, would take less time than Kensei's voice actor to muse about the strength of ribs. and then you can be sure they'd pause as Lugh holds his arm, and more dialogue takes place. and nothing of extra value is communicated.
This isn't even a terribly bad example, but it bugs me, and it really bugs my friend.
I remember Reborn being especially horrible about that. It could have been mitigated by having the exposition being inner monologue from the fighters, but nope, it was always spoken aloud by the peanut gallery each and every time.
I was mainly talking about the Speedwagons of anime. No, you don't need to tell me what he just did. I saw it. I just saw it with my own eyes. yes, it was impressive. I could tell, because I just saw it.
here's a recent example:
! http://img.mangastream.com/m/8/91091651/43c7e9fb3a3400b350c2582c7d324ceb.png
Now, Kensei's little lines of dialogue on the bottom left seem harmless enough, and in manga form, they are. they take up very little page space, and you glance over them in a hurry. they're completely superfluous, because in the next page Lugh thinks "He shattered my ribs, but I've got his arm!" which itself is kinda superfluous. the art is pretty clear that it was a damn good hit, but now Lugh grabbed his arm.But if it had been animated, the main event of the page, Takeda's punch, would take less time than Kensei's voice actor to muse about the strength of ribs. and then you can be sure they'd pause as Lugh holds his arm, and more dialogue takes place. and nothing of extra value is communicated.
This isn't even a terribly bad example, but it bugs me, and it really bugs my friend.
Then your friend would hate Sakigake Otokojuku. 80-90 % of text in fight chapters are "commentaries" where the side characters parrot something someone just said, even on the same page, or describe something everyone just saw, to no one in particular.
It got to the point where I spead-read through the series and just didn't read any of the panels of the other characters talking, unless it was Raiden or something and even then, interupting the flow of the chapter to have a half a page of text on a technique that would probably get beaten and then never seen again in half a chapter, about five hundred times in total throughout the series, got realy tedious and boring.
Well… Otokojuku is pretty much where this "解説役" (commentators) was elevated to extreme to the point of humorous.
Not only was it done on purpose, but anytime someone makes lengthy comments now in manga people refer Otokojuku jokes.
Otokojuku has earned its place in manga fan meme just like Jojo has for other meme.
This is how you do commentary:
Well… Otokojuku is pretty much where this "解説役" (commentators) was elevated to extreme to the point of humorous.
Not only was it done on purpose, but anytime someone makes lengthy comments now in manga people refer Otokojuku jokes.Otokojuku has earned its place in manga fan meme just like Jojo has for other meme.
Problem is it didn't make fun of the thing nearly enough compared to how much it just played it straight and wasted panel time.
Plus Togashi and Toramaru's idiocy of "haha I'm going to make a prediction that this semi finalist in this secret underground fighter's martial arts tournament where we've already had four of our own team members die is a totally powerless wuss, based on the simple fact of their appearance, which I am sure will in no way prove the complete opposite of the truth like it did the last seven times I made this exact same prediction !". That got old fast too.
And their "it's my turn now !" "gag" which was still being used in a completely "straight" way after being subverted twice.
Basicly I hate everything where the author is simply tracing the same comment/phrase/situation for the twentieth straight time because he can't figure out how to stretch whatever's happening in the chapter to whatever length they need without what basicly amounts to filler.
And Akira Miyashita's usage of "mysterious feet foreshadowing" for every incoming fighter on the Otokojuku side.
And finaly his incredible lack of guts to have characters die, after killing them off several times and having a huge sky display of their mugs on the skyline with the narrator telling us how they, in fact, died, only for that to be retconned (like Wan Taaren going back and forth between several different points on the globe and the principal's office in the span of a couple of hours just to "cure" Togashi after the third time he died) or just glanced over. Like with the first two tournaments and four people falling into acid, then being mysteriously unscathed in the begining of the next arc.
For a series all built up on "manly spirit", "manly pride", "manly courage" etc. it's kinda ironic he was incapable of taking these simple risks even with minor, non combatant, barely-in-the-series-at-all-come-chapter-27 characters like Tazawa and Matsuo.
Synchornized Swimming is an ancient Chinese martial arts of assassination.
All arguments are null.
Synchornized Swimming is an ancient Chinese martial arts of assassination.
All arguments are null.
Also reminded me how every fucking thing has to be traced to Ancient China, even things like Golf or Tennis, because we can't possibly have any other part of the world responsible for the independent creation of any sport or fight style.
Was also adding some stuff to the previous post while you was writing that, so check back for more bitching ;)
@No:
Also reminded me how every fucking thing has to be traced to Ancient China, even things like Golf or Tennis, because we can't possibly have any other part of the world responsible for the independent creation of any sport or fight style.
That was the… entire point of the joke. Minbou Shoten doesn't even EXIST.
It's called "surreal humor" in Japan, it's a method of humor by taking something completely absurd and off the wall, and taking it seriously.
This is how you do commentary:
Yes,all of that is the narrator screaming.
I love you. And Mazinger. So much.
Aohige otouto, it's MINMEI SHOBOU/SHOBO ( http://www.mangaupdates.com/series.html?id=35366 ), the fuck is that name you came up with :D?
Regarding No Maam's comment:you've proven that Sakigake is TOO MUCH for you man, admiit it already :P. It's just too manly for some people to handle :P
Yeah i'm Sakigake sensitive. I think it's one of the best mangas/animes. And that beautiful art, omg…
Go Liu Fu for the win :D :D :D
That Mazinger parody was good :P. Wait, was that not a parody???
LOL I think I accidently abbreviated it, and then "hey something is missing!" slapped a publisher.
When a boy and girl get into an awkward, usually sexual, situation just as someone else is about to walk through the door. Rather than just trying to clear up the misunderstanding the geniuses decide to hide. But in doing so they put themselves in an even worse situation if they were to get caught. (hiding in the locker together, or under the blankets of a bed etc).
Random love confessions where the boy just stands there with his eyes closed and shouts "I LIKE YOU" to some poor girl he rarely talks to. I mean honestly; who is stupid enough to think this will work out well in real life?
Boy/Girl Childhood friends that have a crush on each other, but neither of them knows it. You'd think with them being childhood friends they would know each other by now.
When the protaginist is losing a battle to the antaginist and out comes some relative who has yet to be introduced.
When friends find out they are actually long lost siblings, and in contrast to that, when siblings turn out not be blood-related without any foreshadowing.
When the author uses a character to explain just what happened when the picture alone makes it painfully obvious. Some exceptions apply like when the character is mentoring a student/little kid etc. But I just hate seeing a character give a long, needles, explanation when nobody else is listening.
The following phrases:
The following phrases:
- I will never forgive you = especially when they end up forgiving him
- this is unforgivable = every little offence in manga is unforgivable these days.
- You are [insert number] years to early to defeat me = is this a Japanese proverb or something
- how dare you = whats the point of asking?
- if you have time to be doing…. then you should use that time to train/work/study = just comes of as snobby
- It can't be = well… in most cases it is
- Its you = Who else was it going to be.
- I LIKE YOU! = Gee erm, thanks. Anything else?
I WILL PROTECT YOU!
YOU CAN NOT PROTECT ANYONE!
I CAN'T PROTECT ANYONE!
PROTEEEEECT!
For some weird reason,these lines have gotten somewhat irritating for me.
Er, some of those are just simple language barrier issues.
As for the repeating PROTEEEECT, I got nothing. It's annoyingly cliche.
Er, some of those are just simple language barrier issues.
As for the repeating PROTEEEECT, I got nothing. It's annoyingly cliche.
Lol and it's Ichigo's one character trait
Lol and it's Ichigo's one character trait
I thought Ichigo's major character was being the asshole who's smug whenever he has the upperhand, but is really a coward who panics at the first sign of any real trouble
Oh wait you meant intentional traits
Parodies of the final panel in Ashita no Joe. Yes, it was a legendary fight but pretty much all of that series was great. Why not reference some other scene from it?
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Parodies of the final panel in Ashita no Joe. Yes, it was a legendary fight but pretty much all of that series was great. Why not reference some other scene from it?
Isn't that generally how parodies work? Referring to something notably popular…and that final panel in Ashita no Joe is pretty damn popular (if not, the most popular sports panel scene I can think of at the moment).
Yeah, parodies always focus on the most iconic scenes. Its like how star wars pardoies will always do a joke around the whole "Luke I am your father" bit
Aohige otouto, it's MINMEI SHOBOU/SHOBO ( http://www.mangaupdates.com/series.html?id=35366 ), the fuck is that name you came up with :D?
Regarding No Maam's comment:you've proven that Sakigake is TOO MUCH for you man, admiit it already :P. It's just too manly for some people to handle :P
I realy can't focus on something being singled out as "manly" in this series when these things are being done by about 20 different people with little to no backstory and character, and when stuff gets constantly one-upped by something, even when it's setup and execution ends up being the exact same.
I wanted to like this series but devoting 300 chapters straight to showcase four tournaments back to back with only three chapters not immediately linking into one, well over 200 chapters after this whole nonsense started, and filling it up with nothing but fake-out deaths, hundreds of techniques you won't remember anyway and a cast doing things that are meant to be "cool" because we get the background characters saying that they're cool.
Had we actualy focused on the school after the first tournament again I wouldn't have any major complaints. But this was literaly just giving up on any ideas for a story and or more things concerning Otokojuku, because the author got lazy and went for the easy way out.
Intro rocks though but that can't save the series from all this blandness.
The one thing I am pretty sick of in manga/anime, particularely in shonen manga, is how everyone has to explain every single thing that happens.
They can't just leave things for the viewer to figure out, or simply use visual language or whatever.
One example would be the latest chapter of the Rock Lee spin-off of Naruto.
This page here:
http://mangastream.com/read/rock_lee/43080294/25
I just want to murder the bloody turtle, or simply yell at it "Yeah, I've got eyes, I can see that. Just shut up."
One Piece itself is quite guilty of this as well.
I only noticed it recently, but a big percentage of OP's "humour" is someone doing something, and someone else explaining the joke with a yell and an angry face.
Now I only used examples of humour in mangas to illustrate my point, but the idea of how things are overexplained can be generalized to everything else.
Shonen mangakas have absolutely no idea what "show don't tell" even means.
Or maybe they're so scared that people won't get what they're getting at, they just have to explain it.
That's pretty insulting to the audience in a way, when you think about it.
However, the biggest criminal in this departement is hunter x hunter. And this is one reason why I can't stand that manga.
But everyone seems to love it here so I'll just say nothing. Don't wanna end up sounding like an ass.
@The:
The one thing I am pretty sick of in manga/anime, particularely in shonen manga, is how everyone has to explain every single thing that happens.
They can't just leave things for the viewer to figure out, or simply use visual language or whatever.
One example would be the latest chapter of the Rock Lee spin-off of Naruto.
This page here:http://mangastream.com/read/rock_lee/43080294/25
I just want to murder the bloody turtle, or simply yell at it "Yeah, I've got eyes, I can see that. Just shut up."
One Piece itself is quite guilty of this as well.
I only noticed it recently, but a big percentage of OP's "humour" is someone doing something, and someone else explaining the joke with a yell and an angry face.Now I only used examples of humour in mangas, but it can be generalized to everything else.
Shonen mangakas have absolutely no idea what "show don't tell" even means.
Has less to do with show and tell and more to do with cultural differences in this case. THis type of joke is based around manzai style comedy which has a pretty long tradition in japan
Oh.
Didn't know that.
Guess I'll research this "manzai" thing a bit…thx for the info.
Yeah, from what I understand, and what I've seen to an extent, the point is that the reaction is a part of the joke. It tends to work a bit better in anime when it's actually voiced though or if you can imagine a good voice, which is one of the reasons Gintama's anime adaption is better than the manga (which is still fantastic). Gintama in general has some really good examples of doing it well where the reaction makes you laugh as well the funny behavior
When the author spends more time drawing food than drafting a good story.
When guys can magically cook very well and women can't.
Note: I'm not refering to Shokugeki no Soma for either points.
When the author spends more time drawing food than drafting a good story.
When guys can magically cook very well and women can't.
Note: I'm not refering to Shokugeki no Soma for either points.
refering to toriko? than i agree.
Isn't that generally how parodies work? Referring to something notably popular…and that final panel in Ashita no Joe is pretty damn popular (if not, the most popular sports panel scene I can think of at the moment).
Fair enough, I just feel that it overshadows the rest of the manga.
@The:
The one thing I am pretty sick of in manga/anime, particularely in shonen manga, is how everyone has to explain every single thing that happens.
They can't just leave things for the viewer to figure out, or simply use visual language or whatever.
One example would be the latest chapter of the Rock Lee spin-off of Naruto.
This page here:http://mangastream.com/read/rock_lee/43080294/25
I just want to murder the bloody turtle, or simply yell at it "Yeah, I've got eyes, I can see that. Just shut up."
One Piece itself is quite guilty of this as well.
I only noticed it recently, but a big percentage of OP's "humour" is someone doing something, and someone else explaining the joke with a yell and an angry face.Now I only used examples of humour in mangas to illustrate my point, but the idea of how things are overexplained can be generalized to everything else.
Shonen mangakas have absolutely no idea what "show don't tell" even means.
Or maybe they're so scared that people won't get what they're getting at, they just have to explain it.
That's pretty insulting to the audience in a way, when you think about it.However, the biggest criminal in this departement is hunter x hunter. And this is one reason why I can't stand that manga.
But everyone seems to love it here so I'll just say nothing. Don't wanna end up sounding like an ass.
you should watch Bo-bobo.
It's a comedy anime that somehow manages to get by without doing anything like what you're describing at all, it's pretty great.
I'm watching Birdy The Mighty Decode right now and there's this villain dude here who was a lone survivor of a terrorist bombing and has since decided that he was TEH CHOSEN.Now he wants to unleash an alien WMD upon the earth to "choose" the other CHOSEN DUDEZ who will survive the apocalypse!
Yeah,these kinds of villains.I find it funny when they give them sad sob stories and retarded "ideologies" relatable to no one in the real world to give them "more depth".Such dudes are better off just being evulz or having more "shallow" motivations like greed.
Better not to try at all than do so laughably.
I'm watching Birdy The Mighty Decode right now and there's this villain dude here who was a lone survivor of a terrorist bombing and has since decided that he was TEH CHOSEN.Now he wants to unleash an alien WMD upon the earth to "choose" the other CHOSEN DUDEZ who will survive the apocalypse!
Yeah,these kinds of villains.I find it funny when they give them sad sob stories and retarded "ideologies" relatable to no one in the real world to give them "more depth".Such dudes are better off just being evulz or having more "shallow" motivations like greed.
Better not to try at all than do so laughably.
Those villains with the fucked ideologies can basically be filed under the "crazy" category
Those villains with the fucked ideologies can basically be filed under the "crazy" category
Does Tobi fit that bill?
As an extension of what I said above,I say gotta love dudes that go like:
"Humans are bad,because they kill each other sometimes.Because of that,I WILL KILL THEM ALL."
Isn't it supposed to be "humans are bad, they are destructive to this Earth. Because of this, I will kill them all"?
There are tons of those.
