Yeah, I wouldn't want you cracking open my skull or analyzing me anyway.
Because you nor anyone else will understand me better than I understand me.
Confession Session - LOCK THIS THREAD
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@Uncle:
Yeah, I wouldn't want you cracking open my skull or analyzing me anyway.
Because you nor anyone else will understand me better than I understand me.
Why are you not naked yet?
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Because Bart isn't around for our chess match.~
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@Uncle:
Because Bart isn't around for our chess match.~
…I'm gonna miss you guys in October...
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I'm surprised it didn't happen sooner.
Except for the fact that it's not possible.
If you're a biological man with a woman's brain, you're transgender. If you're a biological woman with a man's brain, you're transgender. If your brain matches your body, you're not. There's no in-between.
From development in the womb, the brain's map of the body if pretty much set in stone. If it wasn't, transgenderism wouldn't exist, as well as phantom limb syndrome, supernumerary phantom limb syndrome, and body identity integrity disorder. In fact, the only reason I say "pretty much" is because there are people who overcome phantom limb syndrome, and seizures can cause people can develop supernumerary phantom limb syndrome - nothing to do with gender.
Maybe you're transgender, maybe you're not. I can't exactly crack open your skull and poke around to find the answer.
Eeeexactly.
Who says there's no in between? Even biologically speaking, while so much of the brain is mapped from birth, a significant part of it as well as of our genetic code is directly influenced by experiences and other things. There's all sorts of reasons why bigender or genderfluid people could entirely be possible, much in the same way you accept transgender as fact.
Sorry, but part of my beef with all these trans and gender issues is the assumption that the brain and the human body work in binaries with no in between.
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Some people would think it's against the norm for a six foot tall black guy to absolutely love drawing cute bubbly stuff over.. playing basketball or flipping through a car magazine like porn or some shit(though I love watching me a good intense game of basketball).
The concept of "normal" to me is too boring. If society sees me as mentally ill, then let it be I guess. I'm just glad as hell I atleast found something in this short life to enjoy.
Admittedly it DOES sometimes get to me, especially when someone would try to offend me or put me down. But it never really becomes an end all situation that drives me to give in, soo.. Blind Ambition > Everyone elseThe manly and girly thing… I try very hard to act like these things don't even exist as it tends to create suppression, or this disillusion there's dos and don'ts when it comes to gender roles in society. Classyfying things as manly and girly is already a bad enough barrier. It's honestly kinda superficial of me to this this way too, especially since society isn't to the point where it would immediately let go of these constrained standards. At most, it was best of me to see it as a process that would probably get better long after I'm dead. So I try not to worry much about people that would rather conserve these gender role ideas, even if it's me attempting to blend in for my own safely or opportunity(maintaining professionalism).
I'm kinda in agreement with this. People seem to really focus on the do's and don'ts of what gender is supposed to do what. So we get this situations where men are embarrassed to order the colorful drinks that have fun names or accessories hanging off the side. Or women not wanting to be seen as aggressive as a man can be for fear of being called butch and stuff.
My friend's brother's were freaking out cause her not even two year old son liked watching the new MLP…courtesy of me. It has fun songs and bright colors...things kids like? But they were all he should be watching G.I. Joe. She was like..um no? That's too violent for a baby lol.
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@Uncle:
Don't worry about it, Panda. I understand where you're coming from because I certainly don't have the ability to emphasize with everyone's personal situations either. If it was that easy, I imagine the world would be easier to live in. And I can see how it would be a difficult thing to understand from the outside. And I guess honestly, it's not the easiest thing to explain.
Yeah, of course it's impossible to always empathize with others – however nice that would be -- and it would be silly to beat myself up over the situation or anything. Still, there's degrees of how well one can relate to something, and the more they are able to do so, the more likely it is, I think, that they can sympathize and support, rather than attack and shun.
If I may make some comparisons, homosexuality, I feel, is actually rather easy to explain to someone who is not in a way that would allow them to understand. "You know how you feel attracted to people of the opposite sex? Well, someone that is homosexual feels that way about people of the same sex." It's not empathy, perhaps, but it puts it in terms that the person can directly relate to. It goes without saying that the world is a long way off from total acceptance and equality for differing sexual orientations, but progress has definitely been happening, and I think that is a big part of it.
If I were to liken attempting to understand gender identity to something, meanwhile, the best comparison to come to my mind would be synesthesia. I understand that it is a real thing -- in fact, quite common -- and I even know, on a rational level, what it is. But what does it really mean to, for example, hear colors? As someone that does not experience that phenomenon, the description of it ends up meaningless to me.
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My friend's brother's were freaking out cause her not even two year old son liked watching the new MLP…courtesy of me. It has fun songs and bright colors...things kids like? But they were all he should be watching G.I. Joe. She was like..um no? That's too violent for a baby lol.
My son honestly loves MLP and Care Bears…still have to wait for Thomas to click with him though.
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My son honestly loves MLP and Care Bears…still have to wait for Thomas to click with him though.
MLP is a cute show. It's not like it's Winx Club or something lol.
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@Panda:
Yeah, of course it's impossible to always empathize with others – however nice that would be -- and it would be silly to beat myself up over the situation or anything. Still, there's degrees of how well one can relate to something, and the more they are able to do so, the more likely it is, I think, that they can sympathize and support, rather than attack and shun.
If I may make some comparisons, homosexuality, I feel, is actually rather easy to explain to someone who is not in a way that would allow them to understand. "You know how you feel attracted to people of the opposite sex? Well, someone that is homosexual feels that way about people of the same sex." It's not empathy, perhaps, but it puts it in terms that the person can directly relate to. It goes without saying that the world is a long way off from total acceptance and equality for differing sexual orientations, but progress has definitely been happening, and I think that is a big part of it.
If I were to liken attempting to understand gender identity to something, meanwhile, the best comparison to come to my mind would be synesthesia. I understand that it is a real thing -- in fact, quite common -- and I even know, on a rational level, what it is. But what does it really mean to, for example, hear colors? As someone that does not experience that phenomenon, the description of it ends up meaningless to me.
You don't need to experience something or understand something in order to sympathize with someone. If you're incapable of truly emphasizing with someone's particular situation, there's no point in forcing it. This extends beyond gender identity, I can't emphasize with a lot of people's concerns when their idea of a concern is foreign to me. Some people just interpret things in a completely different way and possess completely different perspectives.
Like I said before, if we could all emphasize with each other then everything would be easier. But that's impossible. It's the fact that there are so many different lines of thought and perspectives that makes life so interesting to begin with. The only thing you really need to do is be accepting, that's it.
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Who says there's no in between? Even biologically speaking, while so much of the brain is mapped from birth, a significant part of it as well as of our genetic code is directly influenced by experiences and other things. There's all sorts of reasons why bigender or genderfluid people could entirely be possible, much in the same way you accept transgender as fact.
Sorry, but part of my beef with all these trans and gender issues is the assumption that the brain and the human body work in binaries with no in between.
I'd like to hear these reasons.
My argument is what I said before: That the brain's map of the body is set in stone.
As for there being more than two genders: the human brain is female by default, and only becomes male when exposed to enough testosterone. Therefore, there can only be two genders (since it's not like there's a third set of sexual characteristics anywhere). Intersexuality, while technically possible, would mean that the fetus was exposed to no estrogen whatsoever; since estrogen is vital in fetal development, the child would be EXTREMELY malformed and wouldn't live long, if at all (thereby being a medical anomaly, rather than deserving of its own classification).
Also, Hiroy nailed it. Gender norms are dumb.
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No, I mean how they turned it into the Oppression Olympics. Radfems have made the issue of minority rights into a fucking joke.
Well, you're lucky that I hate radfems. But they are far from the only SJ activists on Tumblr.
@wolfwoof:
When has a radical anything ever been a force of good
Almost every time that any good has happened in this world?
I'd like to hear these reasons.
My argument is what I said before: That the brain's map of the body is set in stone.
As for there being more than two genders: the human brain is female by default, and only becomes male when exposed to enough testosterone. Therefore, there can only be two genders (since it's not like there's a third set of sexual characteristics anywhere). Intersexuality, while technically possible, would mean that the fetus was exposed to no estrogen whatsoever; since estrogen is vital in fetal development, the child would be EXTREMELY malformed and wouldn't live long, if at all (thereby being a medical anomaly, rather than deserving of its own classification).
Then how do you explain people who are physically intersex?
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@Panda:
Yeah, of course it's impossible to always empathize with others – however nice that would be – and it would be silly to beat myself up over the situation or anything. Still, there's degrees of how well one can relate to something, and the more they are able to do so, the more likely it is, I think, that they can sympathize and support, rather than attack and shun.
If I may make some comparisons, homosexuality, I feel, is actually rather easy to explain to someone who is not in a way that would allow them to understand. "You know how you feel attracted to people of the opposite sex? Well, someone that is homosexual feels that way about people of the same sex." It's not empathy, perhaps, but it puts it in terms that the person can directly relate to. It goes without saying that the world is a long way off from total acceptance and equality for differing sexual orientations, but progress has definitely been happening, and I think that is a big part of it.
If I were to liken attempting to understand gender identity to something, meanwhile, the best comparison to come to my mind would be synesthesia. I understand that it is a real thing – in fact, quite common -- and I even know, on a rational level, what it is. But what does it really mean to, for example, hear colors? As someone that does not experience that phenomenon, the description of it ends up meaningless to me.
As someone who's headspace is occupied by that notion a lot, I wanted to throw in that it would actually quiet terrifying depending on the extent of control and how common it would be for people to be able to do so. Even just striving for it can cause all sorts of mental problems.
Also I invite people to share if their experience differs from mine, but I find empathy rather unhelpful for the purpose of helping someone in a peculiar situation.
I also find that sympathy and empathy don't particular share a symbiotic relation. One entertains the notion the other forces it.
Someone once told me sympathy is empathy with distance, distance which is very valuable when you approach difficult problems…Anyway I just wondered how offensive it would be for people with gender identity disorder that I don't particularly care for gender beyond making small notion of it.
Do people with gender identity disorder have certain expectations that I might want to be considerate of? I rather tend to treat people the same, differencing only based on familiarity.
As implied it's all a theoretical exercise in sensitivity(which admittingly I care for far to rarely). -
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I'm kinda in agreement with this. People seem to really focus on the do's and don'ts of what gender is supposed to do what. So we get this situations where men are embarrassed to order the colorful drinks that have fun names or accessories hanging off the side. Or women not wanting to be seen as aggressive as a man can be for fear of being called butch and stuff.
My friend's brother's were freaking out cause her not even two year old son liked watching the new MLP…courtesy of me. It has fun songs and bright colors...things kids like? But they were all he should be watching G.I. Joe. She was like..um no? That's too violent for a baby lol.
I have to admit, I really do like the complete exaggeration of gender roles. Especially with an energy drink that goes by the name "Bear Semen: The Manliest Drink on Earth"(it's real, look it up)
It's almost as if it mocks the whole idea of what manhood is supposed to stand for, rather than outright accepting that it's a thing that all men should abide by.Anyway, I think little boys that age should be into something educational and meaningful. Like WWE wrestling. The themes are usually staged enough for a kid to know it's not as violent as modern day cartoons.
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a six foot tall black guy to absolutely love drawing cute bubbly stuff over.. playing basketball or flipping through a car magazine like porn or some shit(though I love watching me a good intense game of basketball).
I 'get' this (although there isn't anything really to get).
I 'get' homosexuality.
I kinda 'get' gender identity disorder.
I don't really get this bigender thing at all.
I'd like to hear these reasons.
My argument is what I said before: That the brain's map of the body is set in stone.
As for there being more than two genders: the human brain is female by default, and only becomes male when exposed to enough testosterone. Therefore, there can only be two genders (since it's not like there's a third set of sexual characteristics anywhere). Intersexuality, while technically possible, would mean that the fetus was exposed to no estrogen whatsoever; since estrogen is vital in fetal development, the child would be EXTREMELY malformed and wouldn't live long, if at all (thereby being a medical anomaly, rather than deserving of its own classification).
Also, Hiroy nailed it. Gender norms are dumb.
You know how you figure out a condition? you first see the evidence … then you figure out a broader diagnosis. THEN you can worry about how it comes about. It doesn't work the other way around.
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I'd like to hear these reasons.
My argument is what I said before: That the brain's map of the body is set in stone.
As for there being more than two genders: the human brain is female by default, and only becomes male when exposed to enough testosterone. Therefore, there can only be two genders (since it's not like there's a third set of sexual characteristics anywhere). Intersexuality, while technically possible, would mean that the fetus was exposed to no estrogen whatsoever; since estrogen is vital in fetal development, the child would be EXTREMELY malformed and wouldn't live long, if at all (thereby being a medical anomaly, rather than deserving of its own classification).
Also, Hiroy nailed it. Gender norms are dumb.
Hey Cruithne, you mind telling me what living in Louisiana is like as well? I'm not quite sure what it's like even though I live here. I figure you know better than me on that subject.
I would imagine transgenderism is a mix of biology and psychology. Last time I checked, and this is just the last time, we've never completely mapped out the brain before. So despite you wanting to adamantly stand by the black and white, we don't even completely understand the brain yet! And even if we did have it completely mapped out, information changes, all the time.
Did you know that they're considering completely re-writing the laws of physics because of recent discoveries? Do you know that psychology and sociology are constantly, constantly changing? Despite you not wanting to believe it, and you must really not want to believe it, science changes. And I admittedly have no clue what the current science is on the subject, but I know how I feel. And it's not "just" that I like "girly" things.
Hiroy didn't nail anything. His is a complaint that there shouldn't be a distinction between what's feminine and what's masculine. And you know what? I kinda agree with that. But that's not at all what transgenderism is. It's the feeling of being biologically incorrect. Hell, I could probably like ONLY traditionally masculine things and still feel this way.
But please, keep telling me how I feel.
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I never really thought too much about gender identity, just tried to be as tolerant and open-minded as possible about it, because while I can't imagine being uncomfortable with my own gender to that degree, I do know what's it like hiding who you really are.
But I do have to admit; I have never been to interested in people who heavily identify with their own gender or sexuality, because I always thought that was kind of boring. The topic of gender identity itself is very interesting, I just don't care about people who make being straight/gay/bi or being a dude/lady one of their most important character traits, because I never really cared about what people are sexually or ethnically, I'm more interested in what interest they have, like hobbies, favorite book/movie, opinions and ideas about life and god, etc -
Almost every time that any good has happened in this world?
What? Radicalism has brought about everything good that's happened? Hmmm.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
@Uncle:
Did you know that they're considering completely re-writing the laws of physics because of recent discoveries?
Oh, this is exactly what I mean. We don't perfectly know the inner bits and pieces - we figure them out from the outward and the macroscopic. What someone presents with is more important than what the theory suggests.
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@Uncle:
Don't worry about it, Panda. I understand where you're coming from because I certainly don't have the ability to emphasize with everyone's personal situations either. If it was that easy, I imagine the world would be easier to live in. And I can see how it would be a difficult thing to understand from the outside. And I guess honestly, it's not the easiest thing to explain.
I feel like I'm not consciously aware of gender so much as I'm "made aware" of it whenever the very make-up of my emotional state, mannerisms and general feelings shift. It'll happen randomly and sometimes, it'll be triggered by something. But just the whole… core of my being tends to change. That's where the dysphoria comes from and I start to feel like I genuinely don't belong in my current biological state (a biological male).
But it's okay to be curious and not understand.
I'm curious; do you think that sensation of feeling like you don't belong in your "biological state" as you put it, stems from society and society's gender classifications? Like, if nobody told you (or questioned you on) how a male is supposed to feel, do you still think you'd feel so out of place? I'm sure your earlier explanation was really simplistic, but I don't really see how wanting to express femininity and behavior associated with females part of the time necessarily equates to feeling you are the wrong gender, outside of the fact that if you were the other gender you would not be judged for those tendencies. But it makes me question if that actually qualifies as "bi-gender." Like panda I don't mean to offend and obviously I can't understand your position, but I'm trying to get at least a better grasp by asking I guess.
Like it's one thing to feel like breaking free from gender roles (and it's interesting you mentioned wishing you could freely switch between genders, because I think MOST people would love to be able to do that, and even if they won't admit it, they'd enjoy being the opposite gender at times). But I would consider it another thing entirely to wake up feeling like your body doesn't belong to you. Like it's just wrong, and you feel a physiological disconnect like you can't identify with your body. Being "trapped" as many describe it. I also wonder if any other fundamental things change, like sexual attraction.
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I'm curious; do you think that sensation of feeling like you don't belong in your "biological state" as you put it, stems from society and society's gender classifications? Like, if nobody told you (or questioned you on) how a male is supposed to feel, do you still think you'd feel so out of place? I'm sure your earlier explanation was really simplistic, but I don't really see how wanting to express femininity and behavior associated with females part of the time necessarily equates to feeling you are the wrong gender, outside of the fact that if you were the other gender you would not be judged for those tendencies. But it makes me question if that actually qualifies as "bi-gender." Like panda I don't mean to offend and obviously I can't understand your position, but I'm trying to get at least a better grasp by asking I guess.
Like it's one thing to feel like breaking free from gender roles (and it's interesting you mentioned wishing you could freely switch between genders, because I think MOST people would love to be able to do that, and even if they won't admit it, they'd enjoy being the opposite gender at times). But I would consider it another thing entirely to wake up feeling like your body doesn't belong to you. Like it's just wrong, and you feel a physiological disconnect like you can't identify with your body. Being "trapped" as many describe it. I also wonder if any other fundamental things change, like sexual attraction.
Here we go. This is actually a pretty good question.~
Being able to freely express what's traditionally seen as feminine traits is one issue that's part of the whole. In that particular regard, I would simply like to express those traits more openly from a societal standpoint and it be okay. But even if I was fully accepted from a societal standpoint, I don't think I'd be completely happy. I would still feel disconnected from my body, as you put it.
But still, being able to express myself more openly would at least make it more tolerable. With me, I feel as though I'm wrong from a biological standpoint as well as a societal standpoint.
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I never really thought too much about gender identity, just tried to be as tolerant and open-minded as possible about it, because while I can't imagine being uncomfortable with my own gender to that degree, I do know what's it like hiding who you really are.
But I do have to admit; I have never been to interested in people who heavily identify with their own gender or sexuality, because I always thought that was kind of boring. The topic of gender identity itself is very interesting, I just don't care about people who make being straight/gay/bi or being a dude/lady one of their most important character traits, because I never really cared about what people are sexually or ethnically, I'm more interested in what interest they have, like hobbies, favorite book/movie, opinions and ideas about life and god, etcI share very similar notions regarding this, has this ever estranged you from others? It did for me in some cases at times I decided to be rather blunt about it, bearing rather interesting to perplexing confrontations at times.
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What? Radicalism has brought about everything good that's happened? Hmmm.
It really depends on your definition of "radical". But at the time they were fighting, most of the activists we look up to today, were considered radical, and they thought of themselves as radical. What's ironic about so-called "radfems" is that they're not radical in the slightest; they're regurgitating the same second-wave rhetoric that was being criticized by radicals like Gloria Anzaldua, bell hooks, Audre Lorde… back in the 70s.
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Almost every time that any good has happened in this world?
Radical groups by themselves rarely make anything happen since they by the virture of being way out there have no anchoring in the public
To me a radical is someone who's apart of a fringe group that stretches whatever their ideology is far further than what the general member of their faction would think is reasonable
And to me it stands to reason that a radical faction of X can't take credit for when the general X movement manages to make a change in the social consensus possible
But i dunno maybe i'm using the word wrong here. English be hard sometimes. Feel free to throw in some corrections. Unless your a panda. Or maybe even if you are one
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Almost every time that any good has happened in this world?
Your world-view is so adorable. I'll miss you when you finally leave.
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I share very similar notions regarding this, has this ever estranged you from others? It did for me in some cases at times I decided to be rather blunt about it, bearing rather interesting to perplexing confrontations at times.
Let me put it this way. That YOU don't care about something doesn't mean that someone else doesn't.
This, I think is that simple.
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It really depends on your definition of "radical". But at the time they were fighting, most of the activists we look up to today, were considered radical, and they thought of themselves as radical. What's ironic about so-called "radfems" is that they're not radical in the slightest; they're regurgitating the same second-wave rhetoric that was being criticized by radicals like Gloria Anzaldua, bell hooks, Audre Lorde… back in the 70s.
Hmm, I can't really give any notable examples, but I think in the past, mainstream political figures have brought about reform without significant provocation by radical figures. That would mostly be further in the past though, before radicalism was as significant.
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I never really thought too much about gender identity, just tried to be as tolerant and open-minded as possible about it, because while I can't imagine being uncomfortable with my own gender to that degree, I do know what's it like hiding who you really are.
But I do have to admit; I have never been to interested in people who heavily identify with their own gender or sexuality, because I always thought that was kind of boring. The topic of gender identity itself is very interesting, I just don't care about people who make being straight/gay/bi or being a dude/lady one of their most important character traits, because I never really cared about what people are sexually or ethnically, I'm more interested in what interest they have, like hobbies, favorite book/movie, opinions and ideas about life and god, etcI'm not sure your complaint about people making their sexuality or their gender identity a cornerstone of who they are is entirely fair. I say that not because I necessarily disagree with you about finding that somewhat silly, but because I think very, very few people actually ever do that. They don't want those things to define who they are, any more than you think they should; rather, it is the people around them that force the issue.
Take Kenny's situation, since that was how this topic got started. Now, I suppose I am talking for him somewhat, so he can correct me if I am putting words into his mouth, but from what I understand, it's not as though he wants his gender fluidity to be a defining characteristic of his being. He simply wants to live his life how he feels; it is the lack of acceptance from the people around him that keeps him from doing so, and makes the issue bigger than it otherwise would be, not his own preference.
That said, I do agree with you, and others, that I wish gender, in the sense of being a social construct, were not made out to be as important as it has been. I have been asked, in the past – in an online context, where the people involved did not know me personally -- whether I should be referred to as 'he' or 'she'. To which I would ask, in return, why they thought it mattered, so long as it was clear who they were referring to, and tell them that they could use whichever they pleased. It's simply sad to me that society places such an emphasis on this distinction, which it largely fabricated to begin with. There can be enough barriers between people as it is, I think, without creating and enforcing more.
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@Uncle:
Here we go. This is actually a pretty good question.~
Being able to freely express what's traditionally seen as feminine traits is one issue that's part of the whole. In that particular regard, I would simply like to express those traits more openly from a societal standpoint and it be okay. But even if I was fully accepted from a societal standpoint, I don't think I'd be completely happy. I would still feel disconnected from my body, as you put it.
But still, being able to express myself more openly would at least make it more tolerable. With me, I feel as though I'm wrong from a biological standpoint as well as a societal standpoint.
Could you be a little more specific about that? Do you want to be accepted dressed up as a woman? Do you want to dress up as a woman sometimes? Do you mean anything beyond liking dolls and watching 'girlie' TV shows?
Also, could you please elaborate on the following?
@Uncle:Sexual attraction is trickier.
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Could you be a little more specific about that? Do you want to be accepted dressed up as a woman? Do you want to dress up as a woman sometimes? Do you mean anything beyond liking dolls and watching 'girlie' TV shows?
I knew it! I knew I'd get this response! >_>
Sorry, Smudge. I thought you'd be the first one to ask this.~
@Panda:
I'm not sure your complaint about people making their sexuality or their gender identity a cornerstone of who they are is entirely fair. I say that not because I necessarily disagree with you about finding that somewhat silly, but because I think very, very few people actually ever do that. They don't want those things to define who they are, any more than you think they should; rather, it is the people around them that force the issue.
Take Kenny's situation, since that was how this topic got started. Now, I suppose I am talking for him somewhat, so he can correct me if I am putting words into his mouth, but from what I understand, it's not as though he wants his gender fluidity to be a defining characteristic of his being. He simply wants to live his life how he feels; it is the lack of acceptance from the people around him that keeps him from doing so, and makes the issue bigger than it otherwise would be, not his own preference.
That said, I do agree with you, and others, that I wish gender, in the sense of being a social construct, were not made out to be as important as it has been. I have been asked, in the past – in an online context, where the people involved did not know me personally -- whether I should be referred to as 'he' or 'she'. To which I would ask, in return, why they thought it mattered, so long as it was clear who they were referring to, and tell them that they could use whichever they pleased. It's simply sad to me that society places such an emphasis on this distinction, which it largely fabricated to begin with. There can be enough barriers between people as it is, I think, without creating and enforcing more.
Nail on the head.
I don't consider it the cornerstone of myself as a person. In fact, I consider it a really smart part of me. But that's how I feel on an individual level. I don't speak for everyone on this subject and actually kinda wish another trans would take over the conversation, that's more knowledgeable about the ins and outs of it on the larger scale.
As for cooldud's question, strictly speaking from a societal standpoint (as in, what's traditionally seen as female) I'm less about dressing up and more about expression. I don't, me in particular, think dressing up like a girl is going to do anything for me. (Maybe if I was a biological female, hell yeah I'd throw on a dress).
But I'm actually closer to Hiroy's logic in that, I don't see the point in making gender-based distinctions in activities or materials. So wearing "boy" clothes doesn't feel wrong to me. But this is just me.
I like hyper girly cartoons, cutesy stuff, cutesy mannerisms and a desire to do all that stuff. And trust me, I understand that not even girls like all that shit. To be honest, it's hard to really describe what I'd like to do when I'm not even really entirely certain what I want to do. I'm not as forward as the other trans members on here. I've always been a recluse in general.
But biologically speaking, I frequently desire to be female. And with that, it's not so simple as watching a girly cartoon or acting out a particular feminine mannerism. I just feel wrong, to my very core.
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Not going to get into sexuality. That would be an entirely different conversation.
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@Uncle:
Let me put it this way. That YOU don't care about something doesn't mean that someone else doesn't.
This, I think is that simple.
I know what you want to say with that statement, but that is rather unhelpful to what I wanted to know.
The reason is that it does not help me to assess to which degree people with gender identity disorder care about their gender.
Which I feel is rather significant. I mean I care about games, that does not mean that it justifies that people should also care about games when they talk to me. -
But I do have to admit; I have never been to interested in people who heavily identify with their own gender or sexuality, because I always thought that was kind of boring. The topic of gender identity itself is very interesting, I just don't care about people who make being straight/gay/bi or being a dude/lady one of their most important character traits, because I never really cared about what people are sexually or ethnically, I'm more interested in what interest they have, like hobbies, favorite book/movie, opinions and ideas about life and god, etc
Just because someone seems to be talking about their gender (or sexual) identity a lot does not mean that they do not have any other interests. I'm pretty sure that if you engage them in a discussion and be patient, they will tell you about their opinion of books, movies and God. As to why they talk about their identities so much is because there are people around them (sometimes in their close family and friend circle) who consider this (very important) facet of their identity a deviancy. They face persecution at worst and curious stares at best. A lot of this is reactionary, and if everyone was as tolerant and open-minded as you, or empathised with them, they would be as non-activist or non-identity-obsessed as anyone out there.
Lastly:
@Sir:I have been reluctant to lobby on other issues I most care about – nuclear weapons (against), religion (atheist), capital punishment (anti), AIDS (fund-raiser) because I never want to be forever spouting, diluting the impact of addressing my most urgent concern; legal and social equality for gay people worldwide.
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I share very similar notions regarding this, has this ever estranged you from others? It did for me in some cases at times I decided to be rather blunt about it, bearing rather interesting to perplexing confrontations at times.
not really, most people I know in real life are from the balkans (I'm from the serbian part of bosnia), and while I hate to say it like this, most of them are really intolerant when it comes to sexuality and gender identity, so there really is no one in my life who even could get offended at something like this. Basically, the people in my life are mostly assholes, lol
I once got attacked over the internet for my opinion, but that was mainly because the other party interpreted what I said as me not caring for gay people, while the truth couldn't be further away.
@panda; well said, that's basically my opinion. Have nothing against people who use sexuality and gender as a cornerstone of their identity, I just at first think they might be boring people, but I still would always give them a chance, you should never judge a book by it's cover anyway, even if the person seems like a walking stereotype, there might still have very interesting things to say.
Edit: Also what cooldud said -
@Panda:
That said, I do agree with you, and others, that I wish gender, in the sense of being a social construct, were not made out to be as important as it has been. I have been asked, in the past – in an online context, where the people involved did not know me personally -- whether I should be referred to as 'he' or 'she'. To which I would ask, in return, why they thought it mattered, so long as it was clear who they were referring to, and tell them that they could use whichever they pleased. It's simply sad to me that society places such an emphasis on this distinction, which it largely fabricated to begin with. There can be enough barriers between people as it is, I think, without creating and enforcing more.
I think you opened a new can of worms here, insofar as the internet goes anyway. I think that as people, we create internal images of other people that are actually pretty important to us. In person, you get a huge amount of information from looks, expressions, mannerisms, and any number of cues. Even just talking to someone, a huge amount of information is parsed out of someone's voice, inflections, tone etc, whether it be conscious or subconscious. Online, you get none of that. And I do think that a huge part of how you form an image of a person is their gender (it can be their identified gender and not necessarily biological, but a gender nonetheless).
I suppose a way to frame this issue is pretend I got to know you online and in doing so I really started to like you, to the point where I may even start developing "feelings" for you. Without any gender cues, my feelings would probably be confused. Not because your gender has any inherent effect on how I get along with you, but because I do recognize that to a degree, I am biologically wired in a discriminatory fashion, in that romance with another male would just conflict with my brain. Not because I see anything wrong with it from a moral, ethical, philosophical, or religious standpoint. But simply because my brain tells me "nope." It is a superficiality that probably stems primarily from anatomical definitions, but I'm sure society influences me as well, as much as I try to distance myself from what other people think. (Of course it would also be rather embarrassing for one straight man to come onto another straight man, assuming that is the case for both parties).
This is all to say, that it does frustrate me to have an inaccurate mental image or perception of someone. If I have always treated them and envisioned them as one gender when they are another, then apart from maybe feeling stupid for making an incorrect assumption (assuming it was I who is responsible for the misunderstanding), I also cannot help but feel "betrayed" on some level. Like my emotions were tricked. Why should it matter? Maybe it shouldn't. But with no other information to cue off of, it does matter, to my mind.
@Uncle:
Sorry, Smudge. I thought you'd be the first one to ask this.~
If I had to put money on it I'd have picked him too ;P
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not really, most people I know in real life are from the balkans (I'm from the serbian part of bosnia), and while I hate to say it like this, most of them are really intolerant when it comes to sexuality and gender identity, so there really is no one in my life who even could get offended at something like this. Basically, the people in my life are mostly assholes, lol
I once got attacked over the internet for my opinion, but that was mainly because the other party interpreted what I said as me not caring for gay people, while the truth couldn't be further away.
@panda; well said, that's basically my opinion. Have nothing against people who use sexuality and gender as a cornerstone of their identity, I just at first think they might be boring people, but I still would always give them a chance, you should never judge a book by it's cover anyway, even if the person seems like a walking stereotype, there might still have very interesting things to say.Sounds familiar, since I don't care about gay(may be replaced with certain other attributes) people, I rather try to care about people, that includes people that happen to be gay(may be replaced with certain other attributes) . That notion seems to confuse some.
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Sounds familiar, since I don't care about gay(may be replaced with certain other attributes) people, I rather try to care about people, that includes people that happen to be gay(may be replaced with certain other attributes) . That notion seems to confuse some.
Not to put words in anyone's mouth, but I think maybe in some cases the problem is that people assume that by treating everyone completely equally you are also failing to acknowledge the social inequality and discrimination gay people face. So saying "gay people are just people who happen to be gay" might come off to some people as "I don't acknowledge that they have extra obstacles to overcome, and furthermore, I don't care about those obstacles."
I'm sure that's not what you mean, but people are quick to judge. Sometimes it seems funny. People just want to be treated "the same as everyone else," but as soon as you do that, you're being insensitive to their hardships.
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I don't understand why people can't just accept other mindsets and walk away.
I MUST UNDERSTAND THAT PERSPECTIVE OR IT NEEDS TO DIE.
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This is all to say, that it does frustrate me to have an inaccurate mental image or perception of someone. If I have always treated them and envisioned them as one gender when they are another, then apart from maybe feeling stupid for making an incorrect assumption (assuming it was I who is responsible for the misunderstanding), I also cannot help but feel "betrayed" on some level. Like my emotions were tricked. Why should it matter? Maybe it shouldn't. But with no other information to cue off of, it does matter, to my mind.
WHOA this happened to me in a book. There were two characters, whose genders were unrevealed for some time. I always thought that one was male and the other female, but it turned out I had them the wrong way round. I felt so betrayed. Every 'he' I read I was like "NOOOOO". And in a book, it definitely does matter … anyway, I thought that might be an illustration of what you were talking about (sort of) (and I think I found a good writing conference topic … sort of).
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@Uncle:
As for cooldud's question, strictly speaking from a societal standpoint (as in, what's traditionally seen as female) I'm less about dressing up and more about expression. I don't, me in particular, think dressing up like a girl is going to do anything for me. (Maybe if I was a biological female, hell yeah I'd throw on a dress).
But I'm actually closer to Hiroy's logic in that, I don't see the point in making gender-based distinctions in activities or materials. So wearing "boy" clothes doesn't feel wrong to me. But this is just me.
I like hyper girly cartoons, cutesy stuff, cutesy mannerisms and a desire to do all that stuff. And trust me, I understand that not even girls like all that shit. To be honest, it's hard to really describe what I'd like to do when I'm not even really entirely certain what I want to do. I'm not as forward as the other trans members on here. I've always been a recluse in general.
But biologically speaking, I frequently desire to be female. And with that, it's not so simple as watching a girly cartoon or acting out a particular feminine mannerism. I just feel wrong, to my very core.
I'm really confused by this response. You just want to do things which are considered feminine by society. You don't want to adopt any female mannerisms. To me you're just someone who doesn't conform to society's accepted gender norms. I'm not sure what bi-gender is, but if that is it, and if it is formally placed on the trans-spectrum, then colour me underwhelmed.
And you feel wrong to your core about what, exactly?@Uncle:
Not going to get into sexuality. That would be an entirely different conversation.
Please humour me. In the 'phases' where you feel like a woman, do you want to make love like a woman too? In those phases do you want to be a straight woman / lesbian?
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Panda, Foolio, and Cooldud have actually been giving pretty good responses in this thread.
In response to DarthAsthma, I just have to say, that in a perfect world… Gender and sexuality would not have to BE identities. No more so than caring about video games could be called an "identity". They would just be individual facets of somebody's WHOLE identity, that which is unique from anybody else's.
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@Uncle:
I don't understand why people can't just accept other mindsets and walk away.
I MUST UNDERSTAND THAT PERSPECTIVE OR IT NEEDS TO DIE.
Is this a real question, or an expression of frustration? The simple answer is they are afraid and threatened. I don't say that in a derogatory way like "pathetic humans, threatened by anything different than them." I mean it quite earnestly in the sense that if they genuinely can't understand it, and it makes them uncomfortable (or worse), then its persistence can legitimately threaten their way of life or at least their comfort in society. I am speaking entirely in general and no longer about gender issues in particular. Of course this is in the end a very selfish approach, as you aren't considering their issues/comfort or whatever. But when you can't identify with something it's easy to dismiss. Humans are actually pretty selfish by nature.
But of course there are also the ones who are just total dicks and think they are right about everything and it should be the only way things are ever done by anyone anywhere.
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I'm really confused by this response. You just want to do things which are considered feminine by society. You don't want to adopt any female mannerisms. To me you're just someone who doesn't conform to society's accepted gender norms. I'm not sure what bi-gender is, but if that is it, and if it is formally placed on the trans-spectrum, then colour me underwhelmed.
And you feel wrong to your core about what, exactly?I'm starting to really dislike this conversation.
Actually, I do want to adapt, to some level, female mannerisms. But I think you're missing a few crucial points. The desire to do "female" things, is a societal problem. It stems from a biological dissonance that occurs occasionally. That's what bi-gendered is. Feeling biologically incorrect SOMETIMES. There isn't a magical third gender, there isn't a simple desire to do female things, it's an actual dissonance to the body.
And it's something I think you're trying too hard to understand, because it's something you can't understand.
With me, there's two problems and a third factor that blurs the (obviously) black and white logic that keeps trying to be applied to this: the two problems - societal acceptance of a male acting out what's traditionally female (itself an issue) and the other - biological dissonance/dysphoria (which, if ALL mannerisms were accepted, this problem would persist).
And the third factor - individuality.
Whatever idea you have of transgenderism that you're trying to apply to me, such as me wanting to dress up in a pretty dress, drop it. Because I, as an individual, don't like that kind of thing. Not all trans and not all girls do dresses.
When I say "wrong to my core" that's obviously something you can't understand because it's something no one else experiences, outside of other transgendered people. That's when society gets taken out of the equation and it manifests purely as a feeling of being biologically wrong.
And no, I'm not going to talk about sexuality with you.
Is this a real question, or an expression of frustration? The simple answer is the are afraid and threatened. I don't say that in a derogatory way like "pathetic humans, threatened by anything different than them." I mean it quite earnestly in the sense that if they genuinely can't understand it, and it makes them uncomfortable (or worse), then its persistence can legitimately threaten their way of life or at least their comfort in society. I am speaking entirely in general and no longer about gender issues in particular. Of course this is in the end a very selfish approach, as you aren't considering their issues/comfort or whatever. But when you can't identify with something it's easy to dismiss. Humans are actually pretty selfish by nature.
But of course there are also the ones who are just total dicks and think they are right about everything and it should be the only way things are ever done by anyone anywhere.
I typed it out before I saw your post. And I agree with you.
I was directing it towards the members in this conversation that are trying to vehemently deny or denounce the issues of transgenderism because they don't "get it" or don't care.
It doesn't matter if you get it or care. Just accept it and move on. It's really that simple and no one needs to care.
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Not to put words in anyone's mouth, but I think maybe in some cases the problem is that people assume that by treating everyone completely equally you are also failing to acknowledge the social inequality and discrimination gay people face. So saying "gay people are just people who happen to be gay" might come off to some people as "I don't acknowledge that they have extra obstacles to overcome, and furthermore, I don't care about those obstacles."
I'm sure that's not what you mean, but people are quick to judge. Sometimes it seems funny. People just want to be treated "the same as everyone else," but as soon as you do that, you're being insensitive to their hardships.
Very good point, that I can understand. It makes it difficult though to account for that since I can't share the experience of those obstacles.
@Uncle:
I typed it out before I saw your post. And I agree with you.
I was directing it towards the members in this conversation that are trying to vehemently deny or denounce the issues of transgenderism because they don't "get it" or don't care.
It doesn't matter if you get it or care. Just accept it and move on. It's really that simple and no one needs to care.
I hope the things I said didn't come of as such because this wasn't my intention at all.
As for the rest, well since you seem to be keen of shutting a conversation about it down, I'll leave it at such in my ignorance hoping to do the least damage with that. -
@Uncle:
I'm starting to really dislike this conversation.
Actually, I do want to adapt, to some level, female mannerisms. But I think you're missing a few crucial points. The desire to do "female" things, is a societal problem. It stems from a biological dissonance that occurs occasionally. That's what bi-gendered is. Feeling biologically incorrect SOMETIMES. There isn't a magical third gender, there isn't a simple desire to do female things, it's an actual dissonance to the body.
And it's something I think you're trying too hard to understand, because it's something you can't understand.
With me, there's two problems and a third factor that blurs the (obviously) black and white logic that keeps trying to be applied to this: the two problems - societal acceptance of a male acting out what's traditionally female (itself an issue) and the other - biological dissonance/dysphoria (which, if ALL mannerisms were accepted, this problem would persist).
And the third factor - individuality.
Whatever idea you have of transgenderism that you're trying to apply to me, such as me wanting to dress up in a pretty dress, drop it. Because I, as an individual, don't like that kind of thing. Not all trans and not all girls do dresses.
When I say "wrong to my core" that's obviously something you can't understand because it's something no one else experiences, outside of other transgendered people. That's when society gets taken out of the equation and it manifests purely as a feeling of being biologically wrong.
And no, I'm not going to talk about sexuality with you.
I typed it out before I saw your post. And I agree with you.
I was directing it towards the members in this conversation that are trying to vehemently deny or denounce the issues of transgenderism because they don't "get it" or don't care.
It doesn't matter if you get it or care. Just accept it and move on. It's really that simple and no one needs to care.
The emboldened section - I'm not so sure. Obviously I have no idea and I don't get it and so on, but I think that this sex dysphoria comes about because of links between gender and sex. But … yeah . . .
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Very good point, that I can understand. It makes it difficult though to account for that since I can't share the experience of those obstacles.
Well, it comes back to your well-stated contemplation of empathy vs. sympathy. I can't empathize either, because I've never been discriminated against for my sexual orientation or anything comparable either. But I can recognize that it's a shitty thing to happen, and that it shouldn't happen.
There is this really tricky dance going on with political correctness here. You're not supposed to make an issue out of nothing, but you're not supposed to ignore the issue. You're supposed to treat everyone as equals, but you're not supposed to ignore the inequality that exists. You're not supposed to pretend you understand the issue when you don't, but you're not supposed to dismiss the issue because of it.
It's nearly impossible to express how you feel without it sounding wrong to someone or another. Even if it's pretty obvious to most people that you're not prejudiced or insensitive.
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The emboldened section - I'm not so sure. Obviously I have no idea and I don't get it and so on, but I think that this sex dysphoria comes about because of links between gender and sex. But … yeah . . .
This has always been the debate. How much is social, and how much (if any) is biological.
To be honest, it is a difficult question, and I'm probably gonna spend my entire life trying to figure out what's wrong with me and other trans folks. While most conceptions of gender are socially constructed, there could very well be a biological component, as some neurological studies have suggested.
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@Uncle:
I'm starting to really dislike this conversation.
My apologies. I didn't mean to sound like I am attacking your point of view about who you are, I am just posing questions because I know next to nothing about it. If this is becoming frustrating or intrusive to you, I'll back off after this post.
@Uncle:Actually, I do want to adapt, to some level, female mannerisms. But I think you're missing a few crucial points. The desire to do "female" things, is a societal problem. It stems from a biological dissonance that occurs occasionally. That's what bi-gendered is. Feeling biologically incorrect SOMETIMES. There isn't a magical third gender, there isn't a simple desire to do female things, it's an actual dissonance to the body.
I understand the SOMETIMES bit. What I don't understand is how a societal problem is a dissonance to the body, if anything it stems from a mental dissonance.
@Uncle:And it's something I think you're trying too hard to understand, because it's something you can't understand.
Bit condescending, but I'll let that slide.
@Uncle:With me, there's two problems and a third factor that blurs the (obviously) black and white logic that keeps trying to be applied to this: the two problems - societal acceptance of a male acting out what's traditionally female (itself an issue) and the other - biological dissonance/dysphoria (which, if ALL mannerisms were accepted, this problem would persist).
I'm just asking for specifics about the second issue. In what forms does it manifest? Does it make you want to have female anatomy? Does it make you want to apply female clothes or accessories your male anatomy? Have you tried that? Does it make you feel slightly better? Again, you can choose not to indulge me if this makes you feel uncomfortable.
@Uncle:Whatever idea you have of transgenderism that you're trying to apply to me, such as me wanting to dress up in a pretty dress, drop it. Because I, as an individual, don't like that kind of thing. Not all trans and not all girls do dresses.
Where did you get that idea? I am not applying any idea of anything to you, just trying to understand what your idea of your condition is. The options I gave was to prompt a more concrete answer from you, as I felt you were being a little vague.
@Uncle:When I say "wrong to my core" that's obviously something you can't understand because it's something no one else experiences, outside of other transgendered people. That's when society gets taken out of the equation and it manifests purely as a feeling of being biologically wrong.
Again, way to generalize, man. But again, I'll put this reaction as an overblown response to my prodding.
@Uncle:And no, I'm not going to talk about sexuality with you.
~Suit yourself~
@Uncle:I was directing it towards the members in this conversation that are trying to vehemently deny or denounce the issues of transgenderism because they don't "get it" or don't care.
It doesn't matter if you get it or care. Just accept it and move on. It's really that simple and no one needs to care.
Do not cultivate a victim complex here. No one is withdrawing acceptance, or denouncing your life choices. It does matter to me if I get it or not. I want to educate myself on issues that affect people, and I reserve the right to my curiosity. You can choose not to indulge said curiosity but please do not misrepresent the intent behind it.
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Do not cultivate a victim complex here. No one is withdrawing acceptance, or denouncing your life choices. It does matter to me if I get it or not. I want to educate myself on issues that affect people, and I reserve the right to my curiosity. You can choose not to indulge said curiosity but please do not misrepresent the intent behind it.
I don't know, I felt like Cruithne was getting to that point.
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This is all to say, that it does frustrate me to have an inaccurate mental image or perception of someone. If I have always treated them and envisioned them as one gender when they are another, then apart from maybe feeling stupid for making an incorrect assumption (assuming it was I who is responsible for the misunderstanding), I also cannot help but feel "betrayed" on some level. Like my emotions were tricked. Why should it matter? Maybe it shouldn't. But with no other information to cue off of, it does matter, to my mind.
I'm not really going to touch on your point about romantic interest, because it's a fair one. I'll simply agree that it is certainly a valid reason to be concern oneself with another's gender, and leave it at that.
As to the rest, I have no desire to dismiss your points, as I can definitely see where you are coming from. As I often do, I rather exaggerated my stance originally, since I find it easier to convey in that way; I do acknowledge that there are reasons to care about what gender a person is, even with romance aside, and merely wish that was not the case, at least to such an extent.
I know precisely where you are coming from in making your metal image point. I have myself experienced seeing a picture of someone I had known online, and the sort of disorientation that comes with them being completely different from what I had envisioned. However, as far as that goes, I don't see that gender should particularly stand out – not that you said it should. Age, height, skin tone, hair, build; all these and more are things that would more likely than not lead to a person appearing wildly different to how you had envisioned. I don't disagree with you about the frustration behind that happening, but at the same time, I feel it is something that cannot ever be entirely avoided.
What I really want to respond to, though, is your comment about having treated a person as one gender only to discover they are another. In this context, I assume you were likely still talking in reference to the potential issue of romantic interest, which I already recognized as fair. However, that is far from always being the case. Many people -- if not most or, indeed, all -- treat others differently depending on if they are a man or a woman. Frankly, I have no desire to be treated as a woman, nor as a man; whenever possible, I simply wish to be treated as a person. (Or a panda, as the case may be.)
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I know I haven't written here for a while, but now, I have a confession.
! Nothing has changed at all. I tried to adapt and to accept and to find my happiness (which I did), but my mother still can't accept me. Tomorrow's the hardest exam, and I feel it won't be as good and my mom will be like "Well, you shouldn't have played that much on the computer" and such and then everyone will regret putting faith in me. Only one person seems to say "It'll okay if it doesn't turn out that good, it's a hard exam, it won't every change that much" and that person is a teacher who taught me geology. Everybody else seems to expect wonders and now I stopped believing in myself.
! Even though I try hard to find friends, and eventually succeed with it, my mom still isn't satisfied because I guess it somehow goes against of what she expected. I hate this. I can't be happy in my own way and I fucking hate this.I know this post is a mess, but hopefully some of you (who have read some of my previous posts here) will understand.
