Chapter 599, "9 Pirates" Discussion

Masteri Mori

Why is everybody so obssesed with the idea that Luffy can't possibly slow down an admiral? He spent 2 years training with one of the strongest people in the world and sea king level monsters. You can't get much more of a power up then this. It would be unrealistic if Luffy can't at least keep up with an admiral for a while.

I agree with this statement also. Considering that Rayleigh managed to slow down Kizaru two years ago, it seems pointless if Luffy, who has about the same mastery of Haki as Rayleigh after his training (as well as the 6 months on his own), could not keep his own ground against an Admiral. Whether Luffy can actually beat an Admiral at this point is another question, however he is sure to do so within the coming arcs, most likely as an end-of-saga boss.

Sage

Jack Of All Trades But A Master Of None

@Masteri:

who has about the same mastery of Haki as Rayleigh after his training (as well as the 6 months on his own),

I wouldn't go around saying that Luffy has or has about the same "mastery of Haki" as the Dark King.

Yes, Luffy completed his training in lesser time than expected but that does not mean he is as good in utilizing Haki as Rayleigh is.

I like to think "mastering" haki can only be attained through a lot of experience as opposed to just training. Luffy may have mopped the floor with those "Sea King" leveled monsters but it's a different story when he is facing someone else with a DF and/or Haki enlightenment.

Luffy has DEFINITELY gotten WAYYYYY better at Haki and knows his shit, but I wouldn't go calling him a Master at it juuuuuuust yet.

Halfmetal-lich

If people think Luffy won't get another power up before this story is done, your an idiot.

Luffy is strong now, he can probably hold his own against the supernovas and anything lower then admiral, but he still can't touch BB or Akainu.

isrnick

Yes, Sage is right, besides according to Cnet's and Aohige's translations (who are far more reliable than Molokidan's translation, who is used by mangastream) Rayleigh only taught the basics about haki to Luffy during the year and a half they were together on the island.

irishpud

Good chapter but it's a shame Luffy's bounty only went up a 100 million and ppl better realize the fake strawhats are not the real ones!

Haruta

fake-luffy is an idiot
i think the new bounty is between 400-500

semil

Rayleigh taught Luffy everything. That doesn't necessarily mean Luffy can USE it.

Or at least not use it reliably. Learning something might mean being able to do it once, and its up to Luffy to practice until he can do it the first time, every time, regardless of any circumstances.

Alienished

I wish that there is a "kick the tenriyubitto's arses" arc before fishman island…

Haruta

@semil:

Rayleigh taught Luffy everything. That doesn't necessarily mean Luffy can USE it.

Or at least not use it reliably. Learning something might mean being able to do it once, and its up to Luffy to practice until he can do it the first time, every time, regardless of any circumstances.

seeing how luffy dodged that bullet and beat the fake SH without touching them… I do believe Luffy knows well how to use haki now

asm00200

can I ask a question. What happend in the 2 years T-S that made you think

that luffy is even close to an admiral level??

Ryuunaga

@semil:

Rayleigh taught Luffy everything. That doesn't necessarily mean Luffy can USE it.

Or at least not use it reliably. Learning something might mean being able to do it once, and its up to Luffy to practice until he can do it the first time, every time, regardless of any circumstances.

No he didn't teach Luffy everything he only taught him the basics

Sage

Assumptions Are Dangerous

@asm00200:

can I ask a question. What happend in the 2 years T-S that made you think

that luffy is even close to an admiral level??

Many are assuming that because it has been 2 years, Luffy has been training with Dark King Rayleigh Himself (who has shown on more than one occasion that his Haki is a force to be reckoned with), Luffy learned the basics of Haki faster than even Rayleigh himself expected, and Luffy had an extra 6 months of "Self-Training" that he is now a "Master" or of similar level when it comes to using Haki.

The problem with this assumption, aside from that fact that it doesn't make sense (to me at least) is that even IF Luffy "Mastered" All forms of Haki (which I am 99% sure he hasn't) that doesn't mean that he can just beat anyone…Haki isn't the only tool needed to beat everyone...skill, technique, fighting ability, wisdom, experience...just to name a few...are also needed in order to just beat any opposition.

Many of us are tired of seeing Luffy and Co. get there ass beat for the past few months and now it's time for them redeem themselves...just not by complete hax...it wouldn't be much of a story if each of the SH's can completely own everyone....massive development is still in the future of the series (I am sure) and these 2 years just gave them the overall capacity to get even better then they are right now in this chapter.

brennen.exe

@Saturnchild:

Why is everybody so obsessed with the idea that Luffy can't possibly slow down an admiral? He spent 2 years training with one of the strongest people in the world and sea king level monsters. You can't get much more of a power up then this. It would be unrealistic if Luffy can't at least keep up with an admiral for a while.

@asm00200:

What happened in the 2 year timeskip that made you think that Luffy is even close to an admiral's level??

Simply this.

semil

@Haruta:

seeing how luffy dodged that bullet and beat the fake SH without touching them… I do believe Luffy knows well how to use haki now

I don't disagree. Luffy can use Haki well. I don't think he's mastered it, or learned all the possible uses of it.

I wish that there is a "kick the tenriyubitto's arses" arc before fishman island…

Maybe, that sister/daughter did seem really pissed at the SH for touching her brother and father. Though I don't think the series will be complete until the government is overthrown, whether its for the Rebels or not.

Zarnikon

@asm00200:

can I ask a question. What happend in the 2 years T-S that made you think

that luffy is even close to an admiral level??

Luffy wasn't weak before the timeskip, he was strong and fast.
During the time skip he trained with one of the strongest men alive. So he mostlikely got even stronger (physically) and he mastered haki. Why do I say that he mastered it, because of the following:
In chapter 597, page 16 rayleigh explains the CoC and I quote: "You must not use it until you can completely control it. Otherwise it'll intimidate innocent people around you aswell…!!"
Now in this chapter we saw luffy using it and he did not affect anyone innocent, he focused it on all of the Fake SH's and no innocent people were intimidated. Now I would say that CoC is probably the hardest one to master, and Luffy mostlikely also can use the other 2 haki's really well.
Now you ask what could have happend during the TS making him even to an admiral.
We all agree that luffy isn't even to an admiral but he should atleast form a threat and be able to stall thim.

isrnick

@semil:

Rayleigh taught Luffy everything. That doesn't necessarily mean Luffy can USE it.

Or at least not use it reliably. Learning something might mean being able to do it once, and its up to Luffy to practice until he can do it the first time, every time, regardless of any circumstances.

No, Luffy clearly states that Rayleigh only taught him the basics about Haki and then left. Which probably means that the basics is all anyone who mastered haki can teach to another person, and beyond that the person has to develop it by himself.

So, Luffy still has very much to learn about haki before he can truly master it, and he certainly will learn it during his adventures and battles.

M.Hicks

The "strongest man in the world" may be true, but he was a shadow of the man that he used to be. Age and illness pulled him down to the place where he was killed.

In his prime, Whitebeard would probably have done FAR more than just temporarily hurt and inconvenience both Akainu and Blackbeard.

@Urouge:

I'd say he should be able to slow down an admiral, and even be a small bit of a threat to them. I would not say he should be able to defeat an admiral, though. Akainu showed us that they can fight in the same class as the strongest man in the world. There's too much story left for Luffy to be that strong already.

M.Hicks

@isrnick:

No, Luffy clearly states that Rayleigh only taught him the basics about Haki and then left. Which probably means that the basics is all anyone who mastered haki can teach to another person, and beyond that the person has to develop it by himself.

So, Luffy still has very much to learn about haki before he can truly master it, and he certainly will learn it during his adventures and battles.

Keep in mind that Luffy possesses the Haki that far surpasses those of most, even those who are well-skilled with it.

Zarnikon

@M.Hicks:

The "strongest man in the world" may be true, but he was a shadow of the man that he used to be. Age and illness pulled him down to the place where he was killed.

In his prime, Whitebeard would probably have done FAR more than just temporarily hurt and inconvenience both Akainu and Blackbeard.

He would have raped all the marines, if he were young he wouldn't need any of his crew to help him. He would be able to destroy almost everyone with his quakes and beat the admirals up, take ace do a victory dance destroy the whole HQ and head off.

semil

@isrnick:

No, Luffy clearly states that Rayleigh only taught him the basics about Haki and then left. Which probably means that the basics is all anyone who mastered haki can teach to another person, and beyond that the person has to develop it by himself.

So, Luffy still has very much to learn about haki before he can truly master it, and he certainly will learn it during his adventures and battles.

I don't necessarily disagree, though not to be too much of a nitpicker we won't know that there is anything more until we actually see it. The basics might just be being able to do something, and not being able to do it well, completely, quickly, or while in battle. We just don't know. Hell, all we know of haki is the few pages where Rayleigh explained it in the very beginning of Luffy's training. Looking back at that explanation makes me feel like its just the tip of the iceberg, that in the beginning of learning something you don't completely explain anything. But on the other hand its a manga, so maybe that IS what it is. We won't know until Oda shows us.

brennen.exe

@Sage:

The problem with this assumption, aside from that fact that it doesn't make sense (to me at least) is that even IF Luffy "Mastered" All forms of Haki (which I am 99% sure he hasn't) that doesn't mean that he can just beat anyone…Haki isn't the only tool needed to beat everyone...skill, technique, fighting ability, wisdom, experience...just to name a few...are also needed in order to just beat any opposition.

Luffy has always had the other tools. Creativity, fighting skill, raw physical strength, experience; all he lacked was exactly what Haki provides him with. From this point on, it should only be experience that really elevates their power. I'm not saying his other stats won't increase a little here and there as the journey continues, but it shouldn't be significant growth like it was during the Grand Line. Experience should be the only thing left, allowing him to further master all applications of Haki. The earlier portions of the story were eye-opening for the crew, forcing them to learn just how small they are and spur their desire to gain strength. This time-skip was the answer to that, giving them the perfect opportunity for isolated training in the perfect circumstances. If two solid years of that cannot give a solid base for them to stand on in the New World, then nothing can. Put it this way, there is no longer any reason for Luffy, at any point hereafter, to have another sudden boost in power due to need; were there a need, then Rayleigh's training would have been unsuccessful, and the timeskip would have failed to serve a real purpose in that regard. So again, any growth from this point on should be gradual, building more off of experience than anything else, and providing only minor growth, relative to their journey as a whole. IE: On par with or above Vice Admiral yet below Admiral, to above Admiral or on par with the strongest people in the world.

asm00200

@ Zarnikon:

you are forgetting that the admirals also use Haki and "from chapter 0" that's 22 years
of knowledge of it (22 or 2), so that means even in Haki battle he's not even close!!

so if Haki is canceled we go back to DF which is obviously in the admirals favors.
"have you ever been kicked by the speed of light".

one last thing about CoC: if it's only for taking useless enemy's "which isn't"
then that won't help him in the fight.

which take us back to point 0.. he still can't even threaten them.

Thunder Luffy

Luffy lackd more then just haki he also lackd tacktieks and observation of his serounding and enemy

also wasent it stated that reyleigh left after he tought evry ting he coulth teach luffy and not just the basics ???

Oyea i was wondering when are u a haki master is it like in martial arts when ur master all the basics ur called a master or is it when ur one of the strongest haki users only then ur a master

I think its when u master the basics it's the same in swordsman ship just becuese ur a master doesent mean ur greath or the best it just means u have mastert the thing ur using

imp

@brennen.exe:

Luffy has always had the other tools. Creativity, fighting skill, raw physical strength, experience; all he lacked was exactly what Haki provides him with. From this point on, it should only be experience that really elevates their power. I'm not saying his other stats won't increase a little here and there as the journey continues, but it shouldn't be significant growth like it was during the Grand Line. Experience should be the only thing left, allowing him to further master all applications of Haki. The earlier portions of the story were eye-opening for the crew, forcing them to learn just how small they are and spur their desire to gain strength. This time-skip was the answer to that, giving them the perfect opportunity for isolated training in the perfect circumstances. If two solid years of that cannot give a solid base for them to stand on in the New World, then nothing can. Put it this way, there is no longer any reason for Luffy, at any point hereafter, to have another sudden boost in power due to need; were there a need, then Rayleigh's training would have been unsuccessful, and the timeskip would have failed to serve a real purpose in that regard. So again, any growth from this point on should be gradual, building more off of experience than anything else, and providing only minor growth, relative to their journey as a whole. IE: On par with or above Vice Admiral yet below Admiral, to above Admiral or on par with the strongest people in the world.

I would agree with you… But then again, we may still discover some new and completely unknown (as of now) ability which Luffy can't do anything about with his current strength/abilities, and which will need the discovery of a new counter, just like haki was needed to touch logias.

Zarnikon

@asm00200:

you are forgetting that the admirals also use Haki and "from chapter 0" that's 22 years
of knowledge of it (22 or 2), so that means even in Haki battle he's not even close!!

so if Haki is canceled we go back to DF which is obviously in the admirals favors.
"have ever been hit by the speed of light".

one last thing about CoC: if it's only for taking useless enemy's "which isn't"
then that won't help him in the fight.

which take us back to point 0.. he still can't even threaten them.

Who said you that CoC is only for taking out useless enemy's?
I think that he can use CoC to intimidate them, not that they will faint like the weak shit. But they should freeze for like a sec or something
EDIT: because how else was rayleigh able to fight Kizaru? If kizaru is able to move at the speed of light nobody can fight him, mostlikely Rayleigh used haki to intimidate him and stop his movement

asm00200

@Zarnikon:

I think that he can use CoC to intimidate them, not that they will faint like the weak shit. But they should freeze for like a sec or something

I'm assuming you mean the Admirals who fought Whitebeard..

so no!!

Zarnikon

@asm00200:

I'm assuming you mean the Admirals who fought Whitebeard..

so no!!

What kind of argument is that? Did whitebeard have CoC, no he didn't otherwise he would have used it to stop the execution like Luffy did. There weren't any people there who mastered CoC, when one (shanks) arrived, the war ended.

Gizmo

@Sea:

Why do people think Zoro's philosophy is new or learned from Mihawk?
He has always been a fan of philosophy like: Never blame your opponent for your down fall, if you die here you are just that much of a man; which is very deterministic, or belief that's even more directly related to destiny like:"Which is stronger? My luck or the curse of this sword?"

Zoro does do philosophy, but he always used the word luck as you pointed out, from Logue Town to Enies Lobby, and now he uses words like fate and destiny. I assumed Mihawk used fate a lot, but he only used it when facing Luffy. Still, that change is from Mihawk no question.

Thunder Luffy

@Zarnikon:

What kind of argument is that? Did whitebeard have CoC, no he didn't otherwise he would have used it to stop the execution like Luffy did. There weren't any people there who mastered CoC, when one (shanks) arrived, the war ended.

he did have it the members of hi's crew stated it

There realy got to be more to CoC then just making ppl faint els it realy woulth suck i think it's gonne be someting like to power up the other 2 or totaly another power

Zoro does do philosophy, but he always used the word luck as you pointed out, from Logue Town to Enies Lobby, and now he uses words like fate and destiny. I assumed Mihawk used fate a lot, but he only used it when facing Luffy. Still, that change is from Mihawk no question.

I agree like he stated in Skypia when he was planning to fight god :D

semil

@asm00200:

@ Zarnikon:
you are forgetting that the admirals also use Haki and "from chapter 0" that's 22 years
of knowledge of it (22 or 2), so that means even in Haki battle he's not even close!!

I don't know what you mean by "from chapter 0". Its true that marines might learn about Haki earlier, but that doesn't necessarily mean they learn to use it, or use it well. All we know is that at some point the use of Haki seems to be required for promotion. All we have to go by for the training of marines is Coby and Helmeppo, who are both extremely unusual cases. We've seen alot of low level marines with no noticable ability.

asm00200

@Zarnikon:

What kind of argument is that? Did whitebeard have CoC, no he didn't otherwise he would have used it to stop the execution like Luffy did. There weren't any people there who mastered CoC, when one (shanks) arrived, the war ended.

and now I ask the golden question.. How do you know if someone has Coc??

because that will answer your post.

@semil: chapter 0 they were VA which means they can use Haki.. which means they had 22 years to develop it!!

Rubber Fist Luffy

I believe Luffy has a lot more to offer in a battle against an Admiral now.
But even so, I don't think he can do any serious damage to them.

Zarnikon

@asm00200:

and now I ask the golden question.. How do you know if someone has Coc??

because that will answer your post.

If they use it, they obviously have Coc otherwise they mostlikely don't, if someone there had CoC they should have noticed it by the war, luffy was only 17/18 but all the others there were older.

Zarnikon

@asm00200:

and now I ask the golden question.. How do you know if someone has Coc??

because that will answer your post.

@semil: chapter 0 they were VA which means they can use Haki.. which means they had 22 years to develop it!!

If you teach an idiot maths for 22 years he will be able to use it, but not that good.
If you teach a genius maths for 2 years he will have fully mastered it.

M.Hicks

@isrnick:

No, Luffy clearly states that Rayleigh only taught him the basics about Haki and then left. Which probably means that the basics is all anyone who mastered haki can teach to another person, and beyond that the person has to develop it by himself.

So, Luffy still has very much to learn about haki before he can truly master it, and he certainly will learn it during his adventures and battles.

@Rubber:

I believe Luffy has a lot more to offer in a battle against an Admiral now.
But even so, I don't think he can do any serious damage to them.

It was the Admirals which used haki to prevent Whitebeard from COMPLETELY destroying Mariejoa.

asm00200

@Zarnikon:

If they use it, they obviously have Coc otherwise they mostlikely don't, if someone there had CoC they should have noticed it by the war, luffy was only 17/18 but all the others there were older.

I guess I'll have to say it.

Whitebeard used the CoC twice in the war arc.. once in ace's flashback and the

other when he was attacked by useless marines "and then said his famous quote"

and in both cases he not only made them faint, he even sent them flying.

in summary the world strongest man has CoC!!

If you teach an idiot maths for 22 years he will be able to use it, but not that good.
If you teach a genius maths for 2 years he will have fully mastered it.

so now 22 years won't be enough for the current Admirals who are Admirals to learn Haki and master it???????????

Aka D. Ryuu

first chapter off onr piece that i read so fast.. a bit of a let down for what i was expecting.
i think the demonstraation of luffys powers after TS is owesome .. franky looks totaly like a vending machine. even robin said that she cant treat him like a human.. this change will creat some chaos for the readers. and zoro is like a "not giving a fuck " demon… so much cooler than sanji..xD
the cover story looks interesting... still waiting for the gather up.next chapter is gonna be great...

imp

@Zarnikon:

If you teach an idiot maths for 22 years he will be able to use it, but not that good.
If you teach a genius maths for 2 years he will have fully mastered it.

You know it's not true. Even a genius would need more than 2 years to surpass an average mathematician with 22 years of experience. Same goes for Luffy.

Rubber Fist Luffy

@Zarnikon:

What kind of argument is that? Did whitebeard have CoC, no he didn't otherwise he would have used it to stop the execution like Luffy did. There weren't any people there who mastered CoC, when one (shanks) arrived, the war ended.

You're saying WB didn't have CoC?

http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-569/page008.html
http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-570/page002.html

Zarnikon

@imp:

You know it's not true. Even a genius would need more than 2 years to surpass an average mathematician with 22 years of experience. Same goes for Luffy.

Ok not fully mastered, but if we compare the idiot with the Genius, the genius will know it much better.

M.Hicks

@Zarnikon:

He would have raped all the marines, if he were young he wouldn't need any of his crew to help him. He would be able to destroy almost everyone with his quakes and beat the admirals up, take ace do a victory dance destroy the whole HQ and head off.

Or he would have gone after Blackbeard himself after he killed Thatch.

Rubber Fist Luffy

@Zarnikon:

Ok not fully mastered, but if we compare the idiot with the Genius, the genius will know it much better.

So we're assuming here that the admirals are the idiots and Luffy is the genius?

Zarnikon

@Rubber:

You're saying WB didn't have CoC?

http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-569/page008.html
http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-570/page002.html

Chapter 570 page 2 is where Luffy used it and not WB
And chapter 569, he just yelled i'm whitebeard and punched them.

Zarnikon

@Rubber:

So we're assuming here that the admirals are the idiots and Luffy is the genius?

if we are talking about haki, yes about intelligence no

semil

@asm00200:

and now I ask the golden question.. How do you know if someone has Coc??

because that will answer your post.

@semil: chapter 0 they were VA which means they can use Haki.. which means they had 22 years to develop it!!

Your use of "chapter 0" is confusing. Chapter 0 would be Romance Dawn. I think you mean "from the start", or something.

Rubber Fist Luffy

@Zarnikon:

Chapter 570 page 2 is where Luffy used it and not WB
And chapter 569, he just yelled i'm whitebeard and punched them.

You missed two things, Ch 569, he used haki, its in the bottom left corner.
Ch. 570, they comment that Luffy has Haki like the old man (AKA WB)

@semil:

Your use of "chapter 0" is confusing. Chapter 0 would be Romance Dawn. I think you mean "from the start", or something.

Ch 0 http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-000/page003.html

asm00200

@semil:

Your use of "chapter 0" is confusing. Chapter 0 would be Romance Dawn. I think you mean "from the start", or something.

I hope you're joking.

Chapter 0: STRONG WORLD

chapter 1: ROMANCE DAWN

Sage

Jack Of All Trades And A Master Of None Pt. 2

@brennen.exe:

Luffy has always had the other tools. Creativity, fighting skill, raw physical strength, experience; all he lacked was exactly what Haki provides him with. From this point on, it should only be experience that really elevates their power. I'm not saying his other stats won't increase a little here and there as the journey continues, but it shouldn't be significant growth like it was during the Grand Line. Experience should be the only thing left, allowing him to further master all applications of Haki. The earlier portions of the story were eye-opening for the crew, forcing them to learn just how small they are and spur their desire to gain strength. This time-skip was the answer to that, giving them the perfect opportunity for isolated training in the perfect circumstances. If two solid years of that cannot give a solid base for them to stand on in the New World, then nothing can. Put it this way, there is no longer any reason for Luffy, at any point hereafter, to have another sudden boost in power due to need; were there a need, then Rayleigh's training would have been unsuccessful, and the timeskip would have failed to serve a real purpose in that regard. So again, any growth from this point on should be gradual, building more off of experience than anything else, and providing only minor growth, relative to their journey as a whole. IE: On par with or above Vice Admiral yet below Admiral, to above Admiral or on par with the strongest people in the world.

I understand exactly where you are coming from but I want to clear some things up.

First off…I want it to be clear that I believe Luffy is NOT capable of beating everyone which is why I said what I said in that post you quoted and replied to. For people to say that Luffy "Mastered" haki is, to me, wrong...and I feel that I have explained myself in that regard.

In terms of all of the other ingredients needed to make Luffy beat everyone, I agree that he has learned and established a substantial amount of them but he does not have the full capacity of each...which ties along with what you are talking about above regarding gradual improvement. I am not expecting a huge "leap and bounds" power up from Luffy but I do expect him to increase in all facets of his abilities (including Haki) as the story continues from here on out...enough to say that Luffy is way stronger in chapter 899 than in chapter 599...both post-timeskip.

All those "tools" mentioned above, Luffy does have but I am sure he has not mastered them all....Luffy is still a kid with not as much years of experience as a pirate under his belt...and so he still has some growing up to do....I guess it all depends on how Oda wants Luffy to develop....it's Oda's decision whether to make Luffy stronger than Admirals and Yonkou's at his current age or whether he is going to pace that out...who knows...

I guess I want to ultimately point out this:

@brennen.exe:

Experience should be the only thing left, allowing him to further master all applications of Haki, as well as all other tools needed to be the best.

Fixed.

Zarnikon

@asm00200:

I hope you're joking.

Chapter 0: STRONG WORLD

chapter 1: ROMANCE DAWN

he mostlikely means this:
http://somemanga.com/alt/One_Piece/0/0/

brennen.exe

@imp:

I would agree with you… But then again, we may still discover some new and completely unknown (as of now) ability which Luffy can't do anything about with his current strength/abilities, and which will need the discovery of a new counter, just like haki was needed to touch logias.

Well then you aren't really agreeing with me, since that misses the point completely. The purpose of the time-skip, for the crew, was because they weren't prepared for the New World; Rayleigh's words were, "do you want to repeat that?" referring to the incident at Saboady. If Luffy– having devoted an entire two years to pursuing that same goal, with the perfect teacher and circumstances no less-- if he runs into anything from this point on that requires him to reflect on his own powerlessness and seek more power in turn, then the time-skip would have failed to do exactly what it set out to do. Of course as he is now he needs to get stronger, arguably 'a lot' stronger, but he should already have that base for which his steady growth will stand on. Think East Blue.