[hide]@SMUDGE:
After sifting throw the gibberish…
Most of the arcs were solely about Naruto developing. Showing the others would have overshadowed his abilities.
Again this is false especially as most of the focus if anything has been on Sasuke. There are arcs though that can be examined to satisfy my points like the Tobi thing or the Pain arc. And no, showing off what some of the side-characters can do would not equate to overshadowing Naruto. Whatever Naruto does would be the most exciting in the end. Or are you trying to say Naruto is so boring that he couldn't possibly top what the side-characters can do? In that case, it's more points to my side on how Kishimoto is a hack who can't bother to handle characterization properly anymore.
@SMUDGE:
Their have been few villains for the side characters to have fought, and practically all of them have been leagues ahead of them. Just look what happened whenever Konoha or anyone else has competed against any of the Akatsuki members.
-Sakura barely won, and with the help of Chiyo.
-Kakashi has been killed.
-Kiba has embarrassed himself at every opportunity.
-Hinata was instantly ruined.
-Asuma was killed.
-Choji and his fathers moves proved utterly ineffective.
-Gai only just beat a clone a third of Kisame's strength.
-Tsunade was put in a coma.
-Chiyo died.
-Kankuro almost died.
-Gaara almost died.
-Jaraiya died.
-Bee was barely saved in time.
-Several Jinchuuriki beaten.
The only rivals they were close enough in terms of strength to fight were the 'sound four', and they fought.
The fact remains that if Kishi were to use them in a decent fight and cover it properly then the adversary would have to be in the same strength category. Which means the one on one fight would be chapters long if it were to succeed in showing off the characters developments properly.
Nope, not at all. It's all up to Kishimoto's writing. He can just power them up off-screen if he wanted them to keep up with Naruto. There's no rule that states fighters of the same strength category have to have long fights either. He can create a one chapter fight that would still display both opponent's abilities effectively. It's been done in other manga and even in Naruto Part 1. Also it's clear that the Sound 4 were far stronger than the rookie ninjas and that they only won with luck and forbidden techniques and a lot of help. This is another example of how the side-characters are capable to fight against Akatsuki members. The fact that the side-characters haven't fought a lot of villains is Kishi's fault and no one else's. To say it's pointless to pit them against Akatsuki members and the like because they'd be destroyed is not only a meaningless statement as it's all up to some good writing but untrue. Didn't Shikamaru beat Hidan with some decent writing? OK, that fight reeked with inconsistent moves and plot holes but it isn't any less than any other normal Naruto fight. What about the example I gave? Was it not plausible for the entire group to do something except just stare and stand? Kakashi and Yamato were there and Madara could even have went easy if he wanted to. Anything to let the guys show their stuff. they don't even need to win. They just need to do something.
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Now times this by 20 at several points throughout the story and you have 100+ chapters.
Quit pulling arbitrary logic. This is story building not mathematics. The characterization and how fast its implemented is all up to Kishimoto's writing.
@SMUDGE:
You're are delusional to suggest that a few pieces here and there would equate to proper coverage of the side characters. For Kishi to show the gradual advancement in strength properly he'd have to have at least a few fights for each character. Which again would add up considering the sheer numbers of people eligible for side character roles.
No he doesn't. He simply doesn't have to. He doesn't even need to show the gradual increase in strength. He can have them do it all off-screen. You're confusing secondary characters with main characters. A whole detailed exposition on their strength increase isn't necessary. All that matters is building up their personalities and techniques which was done in the Chunnin exam. After that, what counts is that he uses them from time to time. To show that the world is a huge place and to keep the manga fresh and different and interesting and have some character other than Naruto do something for a while. He can shift between characters and maybe go into a little detail on their personalities and convictions if the plot called for it. So long as they're still there doing stuff in the end. Other authors do it, Kishimoto has done it in part one (especially in the save Sasuke arc) he just doesn't do it anymore.
@SMUDGE:
Stop comparing Kishi's work to other authors. This focuses on one person, not several like all the others used as a comparison so far.
Stop comparing to his contemporaries who you're clearly basing your strength level logic on? Fine. Let's compare Kishi to Kishi then. Let's look at part one when Kishi still cared. Look at the Chunin exam when the characters were first introduced and the awesome stuff they did. Look at the save Sasuke arc where some of those characters (including Choji himself!!!) were randomly chosen for a mission and ended up being built up awesomely along the way. That's the kind of great characterization we don't get in Naruto anymore. Oh and it's not like the Naruto/Sasuke fight was overshadowed by Choji or Neiji or Shikamaru or Lee right?
Also no, this manga used to focus on several characters like any other good manga, now it only focuses on Naruto and Sasuke with more emphasis on Sasuke. Any manga worth its salt would focus on a multitude of characters not just one or two to keep things interesting and fresh. That's just good writing. Saying it's keeping things in focus is just another way of saying that it's stagnating the story.
@SMUDGE:
They were only built up in such depth for the viewers to gauge how far Naruto must go to attain the power required to be top dog. Kishi dropped them the moment Naruto was ahead which further proves they were only tools and not major players in the plot.
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You can't be serious can you? I can't believe anyone would believe this.
What was the point of giving them such interesting personalities then. What was the point of using them as much as he did in part one? Why not just drop them as soon as the Chunnin exam was finished? What was the point of all that drama with Lee and Neiji, and Kiba and Shikamaru, and all the rest? What was the point of that sub-plot with Lee recovering from his injuries, Neiji's belief in destiny and his caged bird symbolism and his subsequent conversion from that belief, Choji's love for his friends and for Skhikamaru, Kiba's relationship with Akamaru? What was the point of all this if they were nothing but power markers? Hell, forget the side-characters for a moment. What about guys like Sakura or Sai. They haven't done anything really substantial and they're supposed to be main characters. Characters that are supposed to be definite allies to Naruto and to be on the same path as him on their journey together especially Sakura with her Tsunade parallel and so clearly not power markers. They were shafted too. To call all this blatantly bad story-telling "focusing on the main character" is just ridiculous.
@SMUDGE:
Kishi cant use Naruto for every example for the harsh realities of the ninja world, therefore he uses side characters to put across his carious messages. They lay the foundations of knowledge needed to understand the complexities of the plot, a job impossible for one character to portray.
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You can't be...ugh.
Characters aren't soda cans to be guzzled and then dropped at a moment's notice. You build up all that emotion and drama and awesomeness, you have to resolve it not leave it to rot for the rest of the series.
Answer my question then and tell me why Kishimoto brought back Lee in part one. If what you say is true then his role was fulfilled and he could have died or ended up crippled and we never see him again and the readers accept that his role in the story is done. But Kishimoto wasted like two chapters with all that operation drama to bring him back. You do that shit, you have to follow it up. Same with Choji and Neiji. The story would have been far more beautiful and tragic if they had died with all that poetic foreshadowing and resolution and whatnot but they were saved to do something in the future. Yet they never did anything noteworthy ever again.
@SMUDGE:
How you don't recognise the importance of each side character and the clans they belong to. They are what make up each country. Plus you forget that Root and Anbu are made up of various clans.
Madara's recent explanations of his clan alone should prove to you how even one clan can bring war to a time of stability.
The clan heads are the politicians of the ninja world.
It doesn't matter what the country and political structures are made of if their constituents are never examined. They could be all of different or of the same clan for all the difference it makes to the story. To say their only role is to give the illusion of diversity when that diversity is never examined nor has any effect on the story is the same as saying there is no diversity at all. The only clan that has ever been fully examined with its history and traditions and its direct affect on the story is the Uchiha clan. The Byakugan clan had a lot of potential as well in part one but that was then shafted like the secondary characters.
@SMUDGE:
This is the weakest piece of speculation so far. Kishi hasn't given up on the Manga, if this were true he would have wrapped it up over 100 chapters ago.
Stop treating your own opinion as fact.
Nope, this is pure fact. Part one was far, far superior to part two in everything. Art, pacing, characterization, story progression, plot twists, fights, everything. The best fight of the series is Rock Lee vs Gaara which is in part one. You can really tell Kishimoto tried a lot back then. Look at the awesome, dynamic covers he used to make like the example Robby gave. There was a decline in story-telling since the Chunnin exam but it still stayed pretty decent. Once part two rolled in, it was like Kishimoto gave up. There are countless members on this forum who loved part one and can't stand part two myself included. The reason he's still continuing it is the same reason Toriyama was forced to continue Dragonball even though he himself stated he wanted to finish it in the Namek arc. Fan pressure, editor pressure and money.
@SMUDGE:
No he hasn't.
The only people available to fight were the Akatsuki, which are leagues ahead in terms of strength. Pairing them off against each other would have resulted in most of them being pointlessly killed, as well as taken important development away from Naruto, so no….Kishi hasn't had plenty of opportunities.
I just cited a perfect example on how Kiba, Shino and Hinata had the perfect opportunity to do stuff but didn't. As a group they could have had a reasonable fight against Madara with even Kakashi and Yamato to back them up and Madara could even have went easy on them because that's how he rolls. Wasted. The Pain fight would have been far more reasonable and in tune with the power levels if each character took out a Pain leaving a final one for Naruto what with the six crushing Jiraiya as badly as they did. They were even matched up against them, ready to fight. No, wasted. Saying that they would have just been killed so its pointless is just so ludicrous. Shikamaru beat an Akatsuki member. Freakin' Konohomaru managed to beat a Pain body (falling for the lame ass kagebunshin trick mind you) so is too far-fetched to think the others could have had a chance to fight and win? Hell, they don't even need to win. Let them fight and get their asses kicked and get about to be killed until Naruto shows up at the last minute and save everyone. That would actually add to Naruto's development with him beating an enemy that pulverized everyone else. Hell with that revival deus ex machina in the end, they could have been killed and brought back anyway. At least let us see them try!!! Another perfect opportunity wasted there. The Sound four were far stronger than the rookies yet they were all beaten in the end in a sensible, reasonable way by them. In the forest of death when Orochimaru first faced Sasuke, we got a semi-decent fight when Orochimaru was far, far stronger. Sure Orochimaru was going easy on Sasuke but why can't Kishimoto utilize such a reasonable plot device for other potential enemies? Why not have them fight in groups against one opponent like good ninja do? Can't he utilize the same good fight craftsmanship he did in the Sound Four fights? Personally I have an answer for all these questions. He just doesn't care.
@SMUDGE:
~~You are hated by most members on this forum. People usually only quote you just to ridicule you….shut up.~~Your reply inspires me to be kind.
OMG, through all this strangely reminiscent debating skill and style, I finally figured out who Smudge is/was. No wonder you're always harassing me.
@SMUDGE:
I don't need to display images when debating with Robby, as he's read the Manga and doesn't need to be spoon-fed information to realise what my various posts refer to.
This isn't about displaying images. This is about providing examples as evidence to support your points. I've been doing this constantly with reference to other works and Kishimoto's own. You've only started doing so in this post and the examples you post to support your points are, in my opinion, flimsy at best.[/hide]
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