Chapter 568 "Have it Your Own Damned Way" Discussion

Ivotas

You pinched a nerve. I've always HATED when people put words in my mouth and even worse, when other people go off on me because of it. Them's the breaks.

The thing is though that I never intended to put words in your mouth since as I said I've also used the very same words you've used in my very first sentence of the post where I've used the term "calm".

Furthermore, just as I said, I don't really see the big difference between "calm" and "soft" since in order to speak in a soft voice one would require to have calmed down a bit. This would especially count for a guy like Luffy who easily gets fired up.

Seem to recall something about a mother…

Huh? :wassat:

brennen.exe

@Greg:

You're comparing how he reacts to his crew, and two members that had pivotal interactions with him in the arc, to someone he met the other day. I expect Luffy's reactions to be over the top and sappy when it comes to dealing directly with them as in talking with/to them.

I don't really see how it makes a difference, to be honest. He has already been through a lot with Iva, currently has no other crew to speak with, and was at the moment completely useless without the necessary assistance from Iva. He's at Iva's mercy; he's desperate.

@Greg:

Here it's awkward and out of place. But I guess that's just silly me reading in Japanese dur-hur. He probably sounds super badass-awesome-cool in English like that title.

@brennen.exe:

Perhaps there is a language barrier thing that makes the dialog a little more corny for you. I don't know, but I thought the translation I read was fairly realistic (for fiction) and natural.

If that is so, then fine. I don't mean to hit a nerve or anything, I just wanted to discuss the chapter. That's why I said what I did in my initial post: "I think this just comes down to a difference in opinion or perspective, and not so much that it really is bad or lame or what have you."

@Ivotas:

Huh? :wassat:

He's referring to this.

MagneticMonkey

God damnit you even found the link Brennen. That reminds me something that happened not too long ago…

Gabbe

iin this thread: someone throwing a fit?

wintergt

This is somewhat entertaining :P

Ivotas

@brennen.exe:

He's referring to this.

Lol, that's it? I fail to see though where exactly I was agressively defensive there. Wasn't I actually polite on the entire thing?

But to get back on topic, I still haven't heard one plausible argument that would explain why, in a situation where Luffy (a character who easily get's fired up) is a) hopelessly outclassed, b) totally exhausted, c) in a big hurry and d) in urgent need of help, a more soft reaction would be more fitting then the desperate shout.

RomanceDawn

@Ivotas:

Lol, that's it? I fail to see though where exactly I was agressively defensive there. Wasn't I actually polite on the entire thing?

But to get back on topic, I still haven't heard one plausible argument that would explain why, in a situation where Luffy (a character who easily get's fired up) is a) hopelessly outclassed, b) totally exhausted, c) in a big hurry and d) in urgent need of help, a more soft reaction would be more fitting then the desperate shout.

Because their isn't a plausible argument for that. The way Luffy reacted is how I expected him to react. How I expected him to react was the most realistic in my opinion.

Glad Iva gave him the hormones right away as well. If he said no, then we'd just be waiting for him to inevitably say "fine". Maybe the same chapter or another chapter or 2 away, it was gonna happen any way and everyone knew it, better now when Iva is feeling the pressure of Luffy's desperation.

Renegadesoul

This post is deleted!

RomanceDawn

Renegadesoul, I think you read Ivotas' statement wrong. Or maybe I am, hahaha. But you both agree on the same thing. He said exactly what you said.

Renegadesoul

Oh… hehe...Lol ok ok gonna delete it

Andrew1995

@Ivotas:

But to get back on topic, I still haven't heard one plausible argument that would explain why, in a situation where Luffy (a character who easily get's fired up) is a) hopelessly outclassed, b) totally exhausted, c) in a big hurry and d) in urgent need of help, a more soft reaction would be more fitting then the desperate shout.

It's easy you are right and there is no argument to counter it. Oda's toughest critic dropped down on fanboy level completely ignoring what would have felt natural in this situation. It's a shame how he sometimes tries too hard to fit in his role… It's embarassing.
It's not hard to see where one piece fails but this? Naw.

Unluck

I'm actually a little disappointed in Luffy for saying he would die if he couldn't save Ace. It probably would have hurt his crew to hear him say that.
Although I guess you can justify that with the fact that he has already seen his crew disappear in front of him and can't bear to lose anyone else. But still.

Cleon

@Unluck:

I'm actually a little disappointed in Luffy for saying he would die if he couldn't save Ace. It probably would have hurt his crew to hear him say that.
Although I guess you can justify that with the fact that he has already seen his crew disappear in front of him and can't bear to lose anyone else. But still.

He said he would rather die content than live knowing that there was some possibility that he could save Ace. His crew would understand that fact and urge him on.

Ivotas

@Andrew1995:

It's easy you are right and there is no argument to counter it. Oda's toughest critic dropped down on fanboy level completely ignoring what would have felt natural in this situation. It's a shame how he sometimes tries too hard to fit in his role… It's embarassing.
It's not hard to see where one piece fails but this? Naw.

In all fairness, it really can be a pain to hold your grounds here when you're criticising Oda because often you get responses like "oh no, how dare you say something against Oda?", "if you don't like it don't read it!" ect. These are truly fanboy elements because many people don't have the guts to criticise Oda if he fucked up and then get agressive when somebody else does. I experienced that myself often enough and it is really hard to keep your composure and continue proving your point.

So yeah, no need to get on a personal level because this would pretty much be what I just described and it wouldn't contribute any constructive view on the argument.

Unluck

@Cleon:

He said he would rather die content than live knowing that there was some possibility that he could save Ace. His crew would understand that fact and urge him on.

Ah. That makes more sense. The way I was reading it was that if he tried and still failed he would want to die afterward. But not wanting to live knowing that there was something he could do to save his brother is definitely more in character.

wintergt

@RomanceDawn:

Renegadesoul, I think you read Ivotas' statement wrong. Or maybe I am, hahaha. But you both agree on the same thing. He said exactly what you said.

Yes they are agreeing. And I also agree with it, this is simply how Luffy acts, I mean I also like the "cool" Luffy, for example in Arlong Park when he put his strawhat on Nami and they did their march to defeat Arlong. But would be unrealistic in the current situation.

Maybe if he matures after his 18th birthday we can see him being more stoic.. but then again that wouldn't be Luffy anymore :P

Denimjo

@wintergt:

Maybe if he matures after his 18th birthday we can see him being more stoic.. but then again that wouldn't be Luffy anymore :P

Nah, Luffy definitely needs to mature to be able to make it in the New World. Everyone evolves from when they were a teen through to their transition into adulthood.

'Stoic'? Nah, I don't think that'll happen. I personally think he'll become more determined to get stronger. He's expressed the fact that he knows he needs to be stronger to save his loved ones (to Blueno on Enies Lobby), but up until just before Shabondy he hasn't quite grasped just how underpowered he really is. He's had run-ins with a large number of people that overpowered him since reaching Shabondy (including Blackbeard, Magellan, the admirals, etc.) and now he truly knows how badly he needs to get better and fast.

wintergt

@Denimjo:

Nah, Luffy definitely needs to mature to be able to make it in the New World. Everyone evolves from when they were a teen through to their transition into adulthood.

'Stoic'? Nah, I don't think that'll happen. I personally think he'll become more determined to get stronger. He's expressed the fact that he knows he needs to be stronger to save his loved ones (to Blueno on Enies Lobby), but up until just before Shabondy he hasn't quite grasped just how underpowered he really is. He's had run-ins with a large number of people that overpowered him since reaching Shabondy (including Blackbeard, Magellan, the admirals, etc.) and now he truly knows how badly he needs to get better and fast.

It is strange you say 'nah' twice to my post, since I agree with everything you just said

RomanceDawn

@Ivotas:

In all fairness, it really can be a pain to hold your grounds here when you're criticising Oda because often you get responses like "oh no, how dare you say something against Oda?", "if you don't like it don't read it!" ect. These are truly fanboy elements because many people don't have the guts to criticise Oda if he fucked up and then get agressive when somebody else does. I experienced that myself often enough and it is really hard to keep your composure and continue proving your point.

So yeah, no need to get on a personal level because this would pretty much be what I just described and it wouldn't contribute any constructive view on the argument.

It is hard when you have people jumping down your throat when you want to criticize Oda. It must be even worse when you have people who usualy follow your every word, think the complete opposite. It's anger inducing I get it. But to want Luffy to pull something as similar as what he did in Enis Lobby with Usopp then say Oda "failed" because he didn't? Doing that would have been the failure. And no need to get worked up over it as well.

What did happen seems like the best course of action for Oda to take. Luffy did seem to be able to pick him self up after being tossed away by Whitebeard. Now had he continued to be unable to stand or was so fatigued he couln't speak properly then maybe that type of Enis Lobby Usopp talk would have been more fitting. But he started to snap out of it, got up again and yelled and screamed for help.

Polygon

If I'm reading everything right, Greg is saying he thinks Luffy basically screaming at Iva when he was pretty much at a 0% on the health-o-meter was unrealistic? If so, I agree. It's not really big deal though.

MmmBug

I don't think Luffy will change in personality no matter what age he is, he probably has some type of syndrome. Sorry Luffy and sorry to people with syndromes. :/

Denimjo

@wintergt:

It is strange you say 'nah' twice to my post, since I agree with everything you just said

Sorry, please forgive me. It's Xmas Eve and I'm sick as a dog. :sad:
@RomanceDawn:

It is hard when you have people jumping down your throat when you want to criticize Oda.

Critisizing the story is perfectly fine (for most sane and rational people). Critisizing Oda himself is what tends to get people worked up. Example: I think the concept of a 20-month pregnancy is beyond stupid and just throws me right out of the suspension of disbelief. However, I wouldn't presume to be so arrogant as to claim that Oda "made a mistake" because it ultimately is his story to tell. If he wants to have certain plot elements in it, that is entirely his decision and not ours (such as, say, the decision to not kill characters). You disagree with a development? Fine. Disagree all you want. But critisizing the man himself isn't kosher.*

To clarify, I don't think Greg did that.

Ivotas

@Denimjo:

Critisizing the story is perfectly fine (for most sane and rational people). Critisizing Oda himself is what tends to get people worked up. Example: I think the concept of a 20-month pregnancy is beyond stupid and just throws me right out of the suspension of disbelief. However, I wouldn't presume to be so arrogant as to claim that Oda "made a mistake" because it ultimately is his story to tell. If he wants to have certain plot elements in it, that is entirely his decision and not ours (such as, say, the decision to not kill characters). You disagree with a development? Fine. Disagree all you want. But critisizing the man himself isn't kosher.*

I would disagree here. No matter how good a storyteller Oda might be he's not perfect and I see no reason why he shouldn't be critisized when he screwed up. I see no reason why it should be a taboo.

Sea

Well, finally I has got time to discuss here a bit.
In my opinion, what Luffy acted is natural.

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/568/07/
I think he asked Iva "softly" here.
Or weakly.
And then his request got rejected.
After that people usually shout out loudly. And in my common sense, it is more pesuasive to shout out in situation like that than saying softly if you really want to have your urgent request accepted, in other word, that will give more possibility to change Iva's mind.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/568/13/
"If by not fighting right now, I failed to save Ace, that would make me want to die"–>obviously this mean if he is just doing nothing watching his brother's death right now, he will want to die afterward in regret that he didn't do everything possible to save Ace.