Chapter 566 "Fierce Attack" Discussion

[FireFistAce 0]

@MagneticMonkey:

So the marines don't have beef with the pirates at all? Because we have this big war you doubt that the marines has constant problems with pirates?

Not saying they don't. But even for something like the Crocodile incident, they sent only a Captain (Hina, remember, Smoker wasn't there on orders) to investigate. Why would they send one of the top brass to deal with day to day affairs? That's just a waste of manpower.

Morgan? Water seven? Plus numerous missions of him off screen when you know that pirates are constantly causing trouble everywhere?

Garp just happened to be in the area on other business during the Morgan thing. And since then (and prior to his visit at Water 7), he had been busy watching/training Coby and Helmeppo at Marine HQ. And Garp specifically said he had been ordered by Sengoku to capture Luffy, who got even more pissed off after Garp came back (the first time) without him.

?

Garp has an office in Marine HQ. He has a land-based facility that he lives/works/sleeps in. Shirohige has his ship. That's it. He's on open water where anything can happen. When not on his ship, Garp has a enormous fortress on a well fortified island that he's in.

Beating someone where you don't really need to sweat hardly counts as puting his life on the line for the crew. I'm not saying he doesn't fight at all. But you can't expect him to have constant fights everyday because you can't expect emperors to have a war every week.

Anything can happen on open sea, especially in the Grand Line. As we've seen from the Strawhat's journey, there is such a variety of events occurring on the Grand Line, from massive seakings to natural phenomenon. Rival Yonkou are not the only thing Shirohige and his crew need to contend with…

He did beat ace. How does that speaks for WB having to sweat everyday?
You were the one who said "Garp is semi-retired. He isn't in danger every day;".
You have to prove that line and to prove that WBs life is in danger every day. Which is totally impossible…

Again, except on the islands (and even then, some islands are unsafe), the open sea on the Grand Line has been time and time again shown to be a dangerous place. Anything can and will happen.

[NANLIT]

@Ivotas:

No, it's not a rumor. Lucky Roux just ate the Lint Fruit. Lint is the

after all. :ninja:

Oh, how silly of me. :ninja:

[pwnobi]

..we don't know what Garp or Whitebeard do when they're off-screen that's why it's called "off-screen." Seems like a pointless arguement, let's all just calm down appreaciate Ivotas' wit for a second, wait for someone to post some more random shit, and move on to the next "debath."

[Kenzo Hartman]

Just a bit of speculation on Garp and Sengoku:

My hunch is that Garp is a Rokushiki master - seeing as Coby knows Soru and has been training with Garp, right? I hope I'm not remembering that wrong. In addition to that, I think he's just ridiculously naturally strong like Blackbeard or Zoro. Haki is kind of up in the air - I'd like for him to not have it - "brass knuckles" made of Seastone would be way cooler.

Sengoku probably has King's Haki. And just to go out on a limb, I'll predict that he has a seemingly weak Paramecia-type fruit that he uses with incredible strategy.

[juju14]

@El:

Yeah but devil fruit users give up one important skill to gain another while creating an easily exploitable weakness. I mean if you are a pirate or anybody who has got strong by training without a devil fruit age becomes a huge factor in strength later on while a devil fruit user can rely on his powers due to some of them being external like Ace and Smoker. The question is now is devil fruit extremely detrimental to your ability to be the strongest pirate. I mean Garp still strong and in good shape compared to whitebeard and they have been active for the same period of time .

Ace was kicking Luffy ass before he even had a DF.

@Fire Fist:

Not saying they don't. But even for something like the Crocodile incident, they sent only a Captain (Hina, remember, Smoker wasn't there on orders) to investigate. Why would they send one of the top brass to deal with day to day affairs? That's just a waste of manpower.

Garp just happened to be in the area on other business during the Morgan thing. And since then (and prior to his visit at Water 7), he had been busy watching/training Coby and Helmeppo at Marine HQ. And Garp specifically said he had been ordered by Sengoku to capture Luffy, who got even more pissed off after Garp came back (the first time) without him.

Garp has an office in Marine HQ. He has a land-based facility that he lives/works/sleeps in. Shirohige has his ship. That's it. He's on open water where anything can happen. When not on his ship, Garp has a enormous fortress on a well fortified island that he's in.

Anything can happen on open sea, especially in the Grand Line. As we've seen from the Strawhat's journey, there is such a variety of events occurring on the Grand Line, from massive seakings to natural phenomenon. Rival Yonkou are not the only thing Shirohige and his crew need to contend with…

Again, except on the islands (and even then, some islands are unsafe), the open sea on the Grand Line has been time and time again shown to be a dangerous place. Anything can and will happen.

Why would WB even bother to fight with ace and his captains on his ship??? WB probably sits around most of the time unless he feels bored and kills someone.

[Kenzo Hartman]

Well as long as we're on the subject of Devil Fruits effecting aging - don't you think Marco's phoenix fruit has something to do with his youthful appearance despite being around 40 years old?

As for Logias, what we see is that they spend most of their time being solid, and only become their base element to avoid injury or attack. But suppose, say, Crocodile just spent all day every day being nothing but sand - would he live forever? Do logias only age while they're in soild form? Can a man made of light, or ice, or magma even get sick with a flu?

And why do kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch?

[pwnobi]

!

[Vanessa]

@Kenzo:

As for Logias, what we see is that they spend most of their time being solid, and only become their base element to avoid injury or attack.

Logia-type Power Users are in their elemental state by default, it's what we've been shown throughout the comic.

[pwnobi]

@Vanessa:

Logia-type Power Users are in their elemental state by default, it's what we've been shown throughout the comic.

What makes you feel they are element by default? I'm not saying you're wrong I'm just interested in what specific events make you feel this way. The only thing that makes me think that is because of how they turn into their element when they're hit, however that could just as easily be explained as a reflex.

[Kenzo Hartman]

I was pretty sure that it requires a significant amount of training for a Logia to become their element on reflex. Crocodile mentions that he trained for it specifically. Nearly every Logia we've seen has had their fruit for a while, so it makes sense that nearly all of them can transform on reflex. But I'm pretty sure they're solid by default unless they willingly use their power.

[pwnobi]

@Kenzo:

I was pretty sure that it requires a significant amount of training for a Logia to become their element on reflex. Crocodile mentions that he trained for it specifically. Nearly every Logia we've seen has had their fruit for a while, so it makes sense that nearly all of them can transform on reflex. But I'm pretty sure they're solid by default unless they willingly use their power.

Yeah I recall Crocodile saying that too, glad I'm not insane. I was actually looking for the page but got side-tracked / bored.

[Renegadesoul]

@pwnobi:

What makes you feel they are element by default? I'm not saying you're wrong I'm just interested in what specific events make you feel this way. The only thing that makes me think that is because of how they turn into their element when they're hit, however that could just as easily be explained as a reflex.

Hmmm just a clarification isnt reflex a kind of default? You dont need a thought process to do it right?

The failure to think of an action is considered a default right? :ermm:

[Vanessa]

@pwnobi:

What makes you feel they are element by default, and then become whole. To my understanding Logia fruits have always been known as an "An ability to become ________." I'm not saying you're wrong I'm just interested in what specific events make you feel this way? The only thing that makes me think that is because of how they turn into there element when they're hit, however that could just as easily be explained as a reflex.

Eating a logia-type Devil Fruit made them able to become/control/create. Like become/control paramecia-type Power Users, their bodies were permanently changed into whatever their particular Devil Fruit entailed. As for examples, any instance we've seen of characters being taken by surprise yet still being remaining "intangible" as a result. Ace being shot by Augur, Borsalino getting his arm chopped off by Apoo, again Ace with having to restart on making Oars III's hat multiple times due to accidentally burning it and Crocodile in this current chapter getting his head lopped off by Doflamingo.

Oh and just to get it out of the way: no one try to bring up the "Smoker ramming into Ace" thing from Alabasta, it's in the same boat as Nami being able to hurt Luffy when he does something stupid.

Comic relief.

EDIT:
@Kenzo:

I was pretty sure that it requires a significant amount of training for a Logia to become their element on reflex. Crocodile mentions that he trained for it specifically. Nearly every Logia we've seen has had their fruit for a while, so it makes sense that nearly all of them can transform on reflex. But I'm pretty sure they're solid by default unless they willingly use their power.

That's not his dialouge with Luffy concerned, nor was it at all what he said.

Crocodile mentioned how many Power Users are simply content with having their abilities yet do nothing to improve themselves. It was a matter of being creative with whatever ability a Devil Fruit has given you.

He showed that creativity with being able to suck out the moisture out of things with his right hand and any moves that involved doing similar things. Like Barchan, Ground Secco and Ground Death.

[pwnobi]

@Renegadesoul:

Hmmm just a clarification isnt reflex a kind of default? You dont need a thought process to do it right?

The failure to think of an action is considered a default right? :ermm:

I would say that if I trip, me putting my hands in front of me is a reflex, however I wasn't like that by birth, only through the experience of falling did I create it. I know it sounds like a bit of an oxymoron, but to be honest I'm more interested in knowing why Vanessa feels they're natural in elemental form than playing semantics.

EDIT:

@Vanessa:

Eating a logia-type Devil Fruit made them able to become/control/create. Like become/control paramecia-type Power Users, their bodies were permanently changed into whatever their particular Devil Fruit entailed. As for examples, any instance we've seen of characters being taken by surprise yet still being remaining "intangible" as a result. Ace being shot by Augur, Borsalino getting his arm chopped off by Apoo, again Ace with having to restart on making Oars III's hat multiple times due to accidentally burning it and Crocodile in this current chapter getting his head lopped off by Doflamingo.

Oh and just to get it out of the way: no one try to bring up the "Smoker ramming into Ace" thing from Alabasta, it's in the same boat as Nami being able to hurt Luffy when he does something stupid.

Comic relief.

What about all the characters this isn't applicable to… I don't think Kid, Law, Bonney, Magellan, Bellamy ect ect are actively their Paramecia fruits, Luffy and in my opinion Hawkins are actually some of the only examples I can think of off the top of my head that go along with your statement. For example, Bellamy had to actively make his legs become springs, Magellan has to consciously have poison drip from his entity, Kid wasn't magnetically attracting or repeling objects as a magnet would, until he decided to do it.(Although I suppose you could argue he does, but that he controls the force and it's so weak normally that it doesn't effect anything, however I don't think Oda meant it that way)

[Renegadesoul]

@pwnobi:

I would say that if I trip, me putting my hands in front of me is a reflex, however I wasn't like that by birth, only through the experience of falling did I create it. I know it sounds like a bit of an oxymoron, but to be honest I'm more interested in knowing why Vanessa feels they're natural in elemental form than playing semantics.

Are you saying reflex isn't innate? Oh well just a trivia everyone is born with reflexes. Clinching hand, crying, even sucking of newborns are forms of reflexes at birth. You dont create it, you are born with it.

anyways just dont mind it then.

[pwnobi]

@Renegadesoul:

Are you saying reflex isn't innate? Oh well just a trivia everyone is born with reflexes. Clinching hand, crying, even sucking of newborns are forms of reflexes at birth. You dont create it, you are born with it.

anyways just dont mind it then.

..I've taken developmental psychology too, if you're really that interested in the reflex debate.

"A reflex action, also known as a reflex, is an involuntary and nearly instantaneous movement in response to a stimulus." In other words, you would train yourself in such a way, that a certain action would become a conditioned, involuntary response.(in our example, my hands moving in from of me to stop my fall would be conditioned, through the stimulus of falling). In reference to One Piece, I'm suggesting this explains why Logia users become their element when they're getting hit, they are conditioned to turn into their element on contact. If it really interests you I suggest you go read Pavlov's experimenting with dogs and salivation.

[Vanessa]

@pwnobi:

What about all the characters this isn't applicable to… I don't think Kid, Law, Bonney, Magellan, Bellamy ect ect are actively their Paramecia fruits

Only one of those who is a become/control would be Bellamy, and the coiling shown when doing Spring Snipe or Spring Hopper are simple aesthetics.

Similar to how when Daz Bones gets shown with blades only during his attacks yet we know he's always a blademan or Bege who is always a castleman yet his body parts only open up when wanting to let his crew out to attack.

[pwnobi]

@Vanessa:

Only one of those who is a become/control would be Bellamy, and the coiling shown when doing Spring Snipe or Spring Hopper are simple aesthetics.

Similar to how when Daz Bones gets shown with blades only during his attacks yet we know he's always a blademan or Bege who is always a castleman yet his body parts only open up when wanting to let his crew out to attack.

EDIT: Ah, I misread your orignal statement about Paramecia-type users, I thought you said they all were whatever their fruit entailed, you did specifically say "become/create" types, my mistake. However, what does this prove about Logia Users?

[Vanessa]

No.

I'm saying the others are create/control paramecia-type Power Users. They can create whatever their particular Devil Fruit entails and can control it, but their bodies remained normal and weren't changed into anything.

EDIT: It proves that eating a logia will automatically put you above a lot of people strength-wise. Since unlike paramecias, you can do all three(become/control/create) along with being immune to damage since logias involve elemental states. Especially since Ambition outside of Amazon Lily is a rarity and seastone seems to be seldom used for combat purposes outside of Impel Down.

[Renegadesoul]

@pwnobi:

..I've taken developmental psychology too, if you're really that interested in the reflex debate.

"A reflex action, also known as a reflex, is an involuntary and nearly instantaneous movement in response to a stimulus." In other words, you would train yourself in such a way, that a certain action would become a conditioned, involuntary response.(in our example, my hands moving in from of me to stop my fall would be conditioned, through the stimulus of falling). In reference to One Piece, I'm suggesting this explains why Logia users become their element when they're getting hit, they are conditioned to turn into their element on contact. If it really interests you I suggest you go read Pavlov's experimenting with dogs and salivation.

Hmm well if we base it on your definition: involuntary and nearly instanteneous movement in response to a stimulus. That contradicts the definition of training then.You dont need to train for it, all you need to do is respond to the stimuli.

Well in relation to Pavlov. Conditioning dogs is not to be considered a reflex. They have been exposed to stimuli and hence they develop a thought process on that specific stimuli, in their case food resulting to a thought response of eating leading to salivation.

[pwnobi]

@Renegadesoul:

Hmm well if we base it on your definition: involuntary and nearly instanteneous movement in response to a stimulus. That contradicts the definition of training then.You dont need to train for it, all you need to do is respond to the stimuli.

Well in relation to Pavlov. Conditioning dogs is not to be considered a reflex. They have been exposed to stimuli and hence they develop a thought process on that specific stimuli, in their case food resulting to a thought response of eating leading to salivation.

And that thought process became involuntary, if it would make you feel better instead of using the word "reflex" in the future, I'll use "Conditioned Response," to be a bit more accurate.

@Vanessa:

No.
EDIT: It proves that eating a logia will automatically put you above a lot of people strength-wise. Since unlike paramecias, you can do all three(become/control/create) along with being immune to damage since logias involve elemental states. Especially since Ambition outside of Amazon Lily is a rarity and seastone seems to be seldom used for combat purposes outside of Impel Down.

I agree with you, I'm wondering why you feel Logia users are by default in their elemental state.

[Renegadesoul]

@pwnobi:

And that thought process became involuntary, if it would make you feel better instead of using the word "reflex" in the future, I'll use "Conditioned Response," to be a bit more accurate.

So, are the two terms the same? or just similar?

Because if you say reflex it means you dont need train for it right?

while if you say Conditioned Response you must require constant stimuli to achieve a pseudo reflex response right?

Hmmm base on this, could this explain the scar on Croc's face?

With your argument, Croc could have had that scar right after he ate the DF, he didnt have a conditioned response to it so there was permanent damage to his physical appearance.

[Vanessa]

@pwnobi:

I agree with you, I'm wondering why you feel Logia users are by default in their elemental state.

Read above, I already gave examples showing it.

EDIT: I'll be nice and give you one more:

Ener getting stabbed through the head by Kamakiri while sleeping.

[pwnobi]

@Vanessa:

Read above .

I guess I should rephrase, do you have any evidence from the Manga that explicitly suggests that Logia users are naturally in elemental form, or are you just issuing your logic about Paramecia users across the board to other types of Devil's Fruits users?

[Renegadesoul]

She did mention Ace burning Oar's hat while making it. Imo that is a good example.

Burning the hat without even thinking of burning it.

Imo Logia users are conditioning themselves to retain their solid states, not the other way around.

[pwnobi]

Hmm, Ace + Enel were good examples, it makes sense, thanks!

[Renegadesoul]

Oh.. if Croc and Ace fight, I wonder if Glass will be formed?…hmmm XD

[Greg]

Both Sengoku and Garp have upper bodies that have consistently been out of proportion with their legs. I'm hoping when they get into the thick of it, some shirts get torn off and they basically look like the bird man from vol39's cover flap.

[pwnobi]

@Greg:

Both Sengoku and Garp have upper bodies that have consistently been out of proportion with their legs. I'm hoping when they get into the thick of it, some shirts get torn off and they basically look like the bird man from vol39's cover flap.

I have to say I'm necessarily too hopeful about all the shirtless old men, but damn I want to see Garp beat the shit out of someone.

[Vanessa]

I'm hoping Sengoku pulls out something that he battles with since having both of them fight the same way would be boring to me, and I'd rather have Garp be the only one who goes with the fisticuffs and nothing else.

Still hoping on that goat of his actually being a weapon of some sort that ate the zoan-type model: goat Devil Fruit.

[Renegadesoul]

@Greg:

Both Sengoku and Garp have upper bodies that have consistently been out of proportion with their legs. I'm hoping when they get into the thick of it, some shirts get torn off and they basically look like the bird man from vol39's cover flap.

Hmmm well if you think about it Garp's fighting techniques require great upper body strength. Im not sure about Sengoku though, but he did roll up his sleeve.

Im foreseeing MOUTENROSHI geezers in this war…

Oh pawngoat might be a battleship... X3 TO ARMS BATTLEGOAT... Lol

[pwnobi]

@Vanessa:

I'm hoping Sengoku pulls out something that he battles with since having both of them fight the same way would be boring to me, and I'd rather have Garp be the only one who goes with the fisticuffs and nothing else.

Still hoping on that goat of his actually being a weapon of some sort that ate the zoan-type model: goat Devil Fruit.

I agree, although I thought it would be a goat with the pole fruit, now I hope it's a pole with the goat fruit, lol.

@pwnobi:

I sort of hope Garp is just a supreme fruitless bad-ass, although I predict he will have a Devil's Fruit. As for Sengoku, he MIGHT have something along the lines of the cloud-cloud no mi, but for certain he will weild pwngoat who has the "pole pole" fruit. For further reference.

http://apforums.net/showthread.php?p=1290214&highlight=pole+fruit+pwngoat#post1290214

[Sakonosolo]

Pwngoat is a giant fucking revolver.

Edit: Sort of like this.

[Renegadesoul]

I wonder if that seagull in Sengoku's hat will finally move, if its alive that is… XD

[Sakonosolo]

Maybe he uses it to fly? Then he and Shinjiki can have an epic Dragonball-like air fight.

[Geo D. Pierce]

Holy shit, i just jizzed in my pants from the thought of it!

[brennen.exe]

@Vanessa:

Still hoping on that goat of his actually being a weapon of some sort that ate the zoan-type model: goat Devil Fruit.

While it is still possible, there is a fairly large discrepancy with the theory: Sengoku, 20 years ago, had his goat.

[Chapter 433]
Helmepp: We've discovered how the powers transfer to the devourer, and developed the ability to feed the Fruit to objects, all thanks to his (Vegapunk's) recent work! [Chapter 184]
Usopp: Listen!!! What the hell is that DOG-LIKE thing!!? How can I fight a life form so bizarre as that!? I'm a HUMAN!! You understand!?
Chopper: I'M HUMAN, TOO!!!
Usopp: No, you're a mutant.
Chopper: But your nose is too long!!
Miss Merry Christmas: HIS name is Lassoo. He ate the "Inu Inu Fruit", model "Dachshund". He's a "gun".
Chopper + Usopp: GUN!!?
Miss Merry Christmas: It's new technology on the Grand Line!! Even "things" can eat Devil Fruits.
Usopp: Bullshit!!! How can it move if it was a gun!?

[Renegadesoul]

Woooo… what if that goat is actually a shield.

[Vanessa]

@brennen.exe:

While it is still possible, there is a fairly large discrepancy with the theory: Sengoku, 20 years ago, had his goat.

[Chapter 433]
Helmepp: We've discovered how the powers transfer to the devourer, and developed the ability to feed the Fruit to objects, all thanks to his (Vegapunk's) recent work!

[Chapter 184]
Usopp: Listen!!! What the hell is that DOG-LIKE thing!!? How can I fight a life form so bizarre as that!? I'm a HUMAN!! You understand!?
Chopper: I'M HUMAN, TOO!!!
Usopp: No, you're a mutant.
Chopper: But your nose is too long!!
Miss Merry Christmas: HIS name is Lassoo. He ate the "Inu Inu Fruit", model "Dachshund". He's a "gun".
Chopper + Usopp: GUN!!?
Miss Merry Christmas: It's new technology on the Grand Line!! Even "things" can eat Devil Fruits.
Usopp: Bullshit!!! How can it move if it was a gun!?

Yeah, I figured someone would bring those up, but still:

! XISj03HREFo

[brennen.exe]

Hey, I'm all for the goat being his weapon. Hell, he could swing the damn goat by the hoofs and I'd be happy. All I'm saying is, if the goat turns out to be the product of science + Devil Fruit, then either a.) plot hole, b.) Sengoky had a recent change in fighting style, or c.) Oda will make everything better via plot device SBS question.

[Warfare]

@Renegadesoul:

Woooo… what if that goat is actually a shield.

And the seagull a sword! :ninja:

[Renegadesoul]

Hmmm …. here's a thought

that goat ate the CUTE CUTE no mi... Lol

It's gonna pawn WB with CUTEY CUTE CUTE EYES

PawnGoat: Meeeh....CUTEY CUTE CUTE EYES....DIE WB Goat language...Meeeh!!!
WB: Aggggggh!!!........ silence

[Greg]

Eating a logia-type Devil Fruit made them able to become/control/create. Like become/control paramecia-type Power Users, their bodies were permanently changed into whatever their particular Devil Fruit entailed. As for examples, any instance we've seen of characters being taken by surprise yet still being remaining "intangible" as a result. Ace being shot by Augur, Borsalino getting his arm chopped off by Apoo, again Ace with having to restart on making Oars III's hat multiple times due to accidentally burning it and Crocodile in this current chapter getting his head lopped off by Doflamingo.

Oh and just to get it out of the way: no one try to bring up the "Smoker ramming into Ace" thing from Alabasta, it's in the same boat as Nami being able to hurt Luffy when he does something stupid.

Comic relief.

I'm still not sure about this either way.

Not that I'm willing to chalk Luffy busting two people through a wall as the concrete end-all point for the fact that they're tangible, but it seems to be something of a lame twist for anyone who eats a Logia to instantly be AMAZING regardless of what skill they have.

Granted what they DO with their powers is another issue entirely and a result of their effort, but just becoming intangible because you ate it? I dunno.

I admit it's simply a selfish notion and based purely on what I'd want in the story and not what evidence suggests at this point, but I'd like to think those instances you pointed out where just the characters being 'that good' that they can sense they're about to be attacked and allow the attack to 'succeed' if it won't prove a handicap.

Since this is something Oda must get flooded with but hasn't addressed specifically, I hope there's something to it.

But…then again maybe not. Logias would definitely step down a notch though on my 'List of Awesome Things I Know' if that was the case.

Imagine some lazy asshole at work you know just getting to eat the mera mera fruit. Just because he/she ate the fruit now they're an untouchable amalgamation of eternal flame. Goddamnit that would suck.

[Vanessa]

@Greg:

I'm still not sure about this either way.

Not that I'm willing to chalk Luffy busting two people through a wall as the concrete end-all point for the fact that they're tangible, but it seems to be something of a lame twist for anyone who eats a Logia to instantly be AMAZING regardless of what skill they have.

For the most part that's been a non-issue I think since along with their rarity, the majority of characters who are logia-type Power Users seem to be ones that would likely hold their own even without the intangibility.

But really it's not just logias, to a lesser extent it applies to certain paramecias too. Like the Doku, Nikyu or even the Supa Fruit since from the get-go they seem to already give a pretty good advantage. I mean covering oneself in poison, being able to repel things and having a body which is essentially steel certainly comes off as more appealing than being able to make doors having a body of spring. Those mythical zoans might be about the same too if Marco is anything to go by, it just depends on what others of that sub-group can do.

Imagine some lazy asshole at work you know just getting to eat the mera mera fruit. Just because he/she ate the fruit now they're an untouchable amalgamation of eternal flame. Goddamnit that would suck.

Sounds a lot like Ener there.

He doesn't seem like the type of guy would have done the things he did if not for having eaten the Goro Fruit. It wouldn't be too far off to assume that becoming a lightningman is what initiated Ener's "as God am I" mindset.

[Greg]

For the most part that's been a non-issue I think since along with their rarity, the majority of characters who are logia-type Power Users seem to be ones that would likely hold their own even without the intangibility.

Exactly. Which is kind of why it bothers me. Yeah. Okay. People who deserve Logia powers, seem to have them. And this makes sense because, well, for all we've seen it's not (usually) easy to obtain a DF so it makes sense that those who actually find it, deserve it most of the time.

Ener, well, he's a sexy beast and he had crazy ambition and he was creative with his powers so I'd even accept him having it.

But it just seems that someone just 'getting' the power of the fruit is a nasty cop-out for their invulnerability.

Again, at this junction, all the logical proof seems to side with them simply being their said form of matter, but I'd love it for, outside of battle when these hardasses aren't on hairline triggers, for them to hit their head stub their toe and say, "Ow."

It'd be nice to see that in addition to their amazing offensive abilities, they actually have to work for defense as well.

Of course this is different for the more tangible of the group. Kuzan and Sakazuki come to mind as individuals that might actually feel pain if one could grasp, contain them, but it'd be nice for the others as well.

Outside their 'natural enemies' that is.

[Vanessa]

@Greg:

But it just seems that someone just 'getting' the power of the fruit is a nasty cop-out for their invulnerability.

It'd be nice to see that in addition to their amazing offensive abilities, they actually have to work for defense as well.

I think it's actually sort of good thing that they don't have to work for that defense. mainly because it's sort of a testament to how strong these guys are. Characters like Kuzan, Sakazuki, etc. don't come off as the type who'd depend on their intangibility to get them through fights. So instead of having to work on doing such a thing, they saw fit to become even stronger in spite of having an already enormous advantage.

One thing I really thought was good was how when Borsalino was sliced by Rayleigh in the middle of his Mirror of Yata was how he paid no mind to the cut received. He didn't see it as anything special or even worth giving attention to while everyone else was still freaking about how the earlier kick was blocked.

So while some of the readers may see it as cop-out, within the story itself the majority of characters who actually have them haven't really been shown drawing attention towards it. Again though, that's just me.

Of course this is different for the more tangible of the group. Kuzan and Sakazuki come to mind as individuals that might actually feel pain if one could grasp, contain them, but it'd be nice for the others as well.

Outside their 'natural enemies' that is.

You think so? I thought Robin's Treinta Fleur: Clutch would have quelled that. I figured Oda's way of showing Kuzan's intangibility was simply by having ice shattering.

Sakazuki's seems difficult to pinpoint though, to me it seems like magmaman just ends up melting stuff that would otherwise pass through him.

[andy]

@Vanessa:

I think it's actually sort of good thing that they don't have to work for that defense. mainly because it's sort of a testament to how strong these guys are. Characters like Kuzan, Sakazuki, etc. don't come off as the type who'd depend on their intangibility to get them through fights. So instead of having to work on doing such a thing, they saw fit to become even stronger in spite of having an already enormous advantage.

One thing I really thought was good was how when Borsalino was sliced by Rayleigh in the middle of his Mirror of Yata was how he paid no mind to the cut received. He didn't see it as anything special or even worth giving attention to while everyone else was still freaking about how the earlier kick was blocked.

So while some of the readers may see it as cop-out, within the story itself the majority of characters who actually have them haven't really been shown drawing attention towards it. Again though, that's just me.

You think so? I thought Robin's Treinta Fleur: Clutch would have quelled that. I figured Oda's way of showing Kuzan's intangibility was simply by having ice shattering.

Sakazuki's seems difficult to pinpoint though, to me it seems like magmaman just ends up melting stuff that would otherwise pass through him.

After kizaru was cut by ray he stop using his powers all together expect his sword he even comment how much trouble the fight became.He did not freak out cause he knows who dark king was. I expect admirals know that the big boys can hit them even smokers knows.

All logia user we seen so far use there intangibility in fights for everything , they depend on it when they can't they change how they fight ,

Kizaru was the perfect eg for this . Everyone was joke until ray showed up .
That what makes logia DF so strong there intangibility , and when you only have few people to worry about it make them even stronger.

Hell you think the admirals would have stand and not bother with luffy if he could have hit them , they would have move out the way or block not using there intangibility which show how much they use it .

[Vanessa]

Thank you for lacking reading comprehension.

[Greg]

You think so? I thought Robin's Treinta Fleur: Clutch would have quelled that.

Actually that's why I said anyone that 'could' grasp them. That is to say, in their elemental or 'other' state. Not simply touch them, but manipulate the magma or ice.

Whereas light or fire simply cannot be grasped, only contained or redirected by most others.

[Chrissie]

I wonder if Noro Noro no Beam would work on Kizaru. :ninja: Or if he would be reflected back if he hit a mirror. :ninja: