Yeah, we don't know if those 500 pirates were including the other 9 Supernovas or not.
Chapter 553 "Battle of the Highest" Discussion
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I doubt Law and Kid are in the Marine Base..but it's interesting to know what happened to them
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it's not like it has ever been said that any supernova was captured. even if some got knocked out by kizaru their crews wouldn't leave 'em there, cause they are friggin' captains. i doubt kizaru got any of 'em after having to take care of SHs and Rayleight first.
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Sure, I don't think it will be a while until Luffy actually starts fighting anyway. Besides, it's not like the cover stories are happening in real time, they're all supposed to be happening parallel to amazon lily.
But with time constraints, its kind of hard to imagine them to get back to Rayleigh and sail into a war. If not all the SHs are accounted for, do wait for everyone but decided what to do next or enter a war with a weakened attack force due some missing members? Though I think Robin would be exempt from this rule since she can hitch a ride with the Revolutionist and get to SA early or head to Marineford.
I wonder if Usopp will be actually fat when he appears again.
I wouldn't be surprised if he was bedridden for awhile…
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Yes it would be a total waste for the main character to be on the level of the strongest people in the world halfway through the series rather then a responsible level of power hierachy by a smart author.
Yall fools are talking like Kishi writes this shit.
Its true that Luffy is still not capable of defeating the Shichibukai, the Admirals and some of the Vice Admirals unless they underestimate him.
But the fact is that Luffy is with 2 ex-shichibukais, 2 famous revolutionaries and a lot of fodder pirates (and Boa Hancock or Kuma might join the team too, so… yeah...), so he has at least 80% of chances of defeating one of the weakest Shichibukais (Moria or maybe DoFlamingo) or one of the strongest Vice Admirals (Oniguro?)You're obviously ignoring the fact Oda has raised the stakes far higher than it Impel Down.
There are probably dozens of guys as strong as Magellan on the Marines side here.
There are about only 13 guys there as strong as Magellan in the Marines side.
3 Admirals, 5 Shichibukais, and the strongest of the Vice Admirals (And maybe Sengoku? :S)
As I said above, Luffy, altough being dominated if the opponent took him seriously, can defeat one of the strongest Vice Admirals or one of the weakest Shichibukais with the team he has, no matter how bloody or serious they are.The first time Luffy got worked, yes. The second time Croc got worked, stole Luffy's footing by turning the top of the building into dust, and then sucked his water out. Essentially OHKO via touch. Third fight Croc used every attack he did in the second fight, got hit more, used poison, and still lost. Oda might have downplayed Croc's ability a little bit in round three, but Luffy had already dodged all the attacks from round 2, so I never understood why people freak out over him doing the same thing in round 3.
Nightmare Luffy actually played an extremely small role in defeating Odz. Odz doesn't have stamina to lose, so all the damage he took did literally nothing. Moria was knocked out from it, but that didn't stop Odz from getting back up, and it didn't stop Moria from getting back up moments later. Unless you think Luffy gave him brain damage or something. It wouldn't matter anyway, because simply being Nightmare Luffy drained Luffy of virtually all his strength and stamina. If he hadn't used it, he would have been much better off.
If Crocodile took Luffy as seriously as Whitebeard, he would use the hook and rip him after owning him in the First Round.
If Moria took Luffy as seriously as Whitebeard, he would use the Shadow Box as soon as he saw him and throw him away to the sea.
Do you disagree?
Are you confusing "ancient computer" with "web proxy"?
Oh god, that was awesome
Mihawk is the strongest swordsman, but that doesn't mean much, the previous strongest killed a dragon, and got owned by halfway mark Zoro, the current one doesn't need to be able to cut diamonds, just ships.
After all, he has no DF, and he can't even cut diamonds =p (I'm going to use this one till the end of OP just to piss you off).
Not only was he being the Strongest Swordsman ever confirmed, as he was using a different fighting style from his true fighting style.
Nice try, though. -
Its true that Luffy is still not capable of defeating the Shichibukai, the Admirals and some of the Vice Admirals unless they underestimate him.
But the fact is that Luffy is with 2 ex-shichibukais, 2 famous revolutionaries and a lot of fodder pirates (and Boa Hancock or Kuma might join the team too, so… yeah...), so he has at least 80% of chances of defeating one of the weakest Shichibukais (Moria or maybe DoFlamingo)Doflamingo? Weakest? Considering he has the highest bounty revealed in the entire series (and it was revealed over 200 chapters ago), you wanna retract that?
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@Fire Fist:
Doflamingo? Weakest? Considering he has the highest bounty revealed in the entire series (and it was revealed over 200 chapters ago), you wanna retract that?
Because bounty always equals strength in One Piece.
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Its true that Luffy is still not capable of defeating the Shichibukai, the Admirals and some of the Vice Admirals unless they underestimate him.
But the fact is that Luffy is with 2 ex-shichibukais, 2 famous revolutionaries and a lot of fodder pirates (and Boa Hancock or Kuma might join the team too, so… yeah...), so he has at least 80% of chances of defeating one of the weakest Shichibukais (Moria or maybe DoFlamingo) or one of the strongest Vice Admirals (Oniguro?)Ya know, staying away from strength comparisons, please explain how Oda can make Luffy defeating a vice admiral, or Moria again, a compelling part of this story. Why would we even want to see that fight?
Cause you know, all the vice admirals so far have needed to have their strength developed ahead of time, unlike the Admirals we just can't assume they're invincible. We can assume they're strong, that's not enough. It's the very reason we saw Monmoga killed a sea king, or how we heard about Garp's many exploits. Really, do you want Oda to spend the time to make one of these vice admirals an interesting villain and a serious threat to Luffy (cause even if you assume a VA is stronger, we still need to see why they're stronger. An interesting fght style needs time to be developed). That'd take at least a few chapters.
To everyone who's suggested these kinds of ideas I wonder, what happened to the underdog? Just because someone seems like they can't win doesn't mean they actually can't. Really, I guess I should be glad because the fact that so many people believe that the protagonists cause is hopeless means the author is doing his job.
(Lastly, I want to explain a little how a Moria vs. Luffy rematch shouldn't happen. It's not something I'm interested in talking about, but if I didn't mention I know someone will nitpick about it later. Honestly, it could be an interesting fight, but storyline wise Moria and Luffy have growth apart. Luffy has been in Impel Down fighting for his life and Moria is in the middle of a battle with the Whitebeard pirates. Both of them seem to have bigger things on their mind right now, and if Oda wanted a rematch then he's shown no signs that these two are even thinking of each other since their fight. Besides that, any issue between these characters have been settled so there is no reason for a rematch.)
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Luffy can kick Momonga"s ass anytime.
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yeh i think also in this arc luffy will defeat a stronger character,not an admiral but probably a Shichibukai or a vice admiral…
he will make something to make his bounty go even higher,and he will do a new gear that will be a cool sence we havent seen him do a new gear in a while...
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Because bounty always equals strength in One Piece.
Yeah, I didn't get a chance to edit that.
It's not just about the bounty. Doflamingo has shown us time and time again that he has little regard for anyone or anything. He's been involved in two of the triggers for two seperate arcs (his former crew and his former business venture), and he has shown fearlessness in the face of even Sengoku. Yeah, I know Bellamy was one-shotted, but I seriously doubt Doflamingo is going to go down in one punch. His power is dangerous, and his lack of concern for anything is rather unsettling. I doubt he'll be a "one hit wonder".
I called it wrong, so long ago. I guess this needs to be changed.
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Luffy can kick Momonga"s ass anytime.
How do you know that when you don't even know how strong Momonga is? Don't forget that when Iva warned Luffy about the people who will be at the war, he mentioned the vice admirals as well.
Ivankov: Oh, don't be a FOOL!! Hyou, fight against the very CENTER of power?! Do hyou know the strength of Whitebeard?! Do hyou know the strength…...of the admirals and vice admirals being sent to stop him?! How many lives DO hyou have, anyway?! (Chapter 540)
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@Fiasco.:
Your post is about as sensible and relevant as your avatar.
you don't like michael phelps smoking weed?
anyways
if Croc goes vs WB he'll get his ass kicked -
@Fire Fist:
Yeah, I didn't get a chance to edit that.
It's not just about the bounty. Doflamingo has shown us time and time again that he has little regard for anyone or anything. He's been involved in two of the triggers for two seperate arcs (his former crew and his former business venture), and he has shown fearlessness in the face of even Sengoku. Yeah, I know Bellamy was one-shotted, but I seriously doubt Doflamingo is going to go down in one punch. His power is dangerous, and his lack of concern for anything is rather unsettling. I doubt he'll be a "one hit wonder".
I agree, I totally believe that DoFlamingo will be a major part of a NW arc post war.
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Ya know, staying away from strength comparisons, please explain how Oda can make Luffy defeating a vice admiral, or Moria again, a compelling part of this story. Why would we even want to see that fight?
What I said isn't about the Storywriting, what I said is about the storyline itself.
I only said that Luffy can't defeat one of the strongest vice admirals or one of the Shichibukais/Admirals unless he gets underestimation from them, or another kind of dumb luck. But he can defeat the strongest vice admirals and the weakest Shichibukais when he has 2 Ex Shichibukais and 2 Famous Revolutionaries with him.
That's the only thing I said, I never said that it would be interesting to see another Luffy VS Moria fight, only that Luffy could defeat Moria this time with the help of them without the need for Moria to underestimate Luffy.Cause you know, all the vice admirals so far have needed to have their strength developed ahead of time, unlike the Admirals we just can't assume they're invincible. We can assume they're strong, that's not enough. It's the very reason we saw Monmoga killed a sea king, or how we heard about Garp's many exploits. Really, do you want Oda to spend the time to make one of these vice admirals an interesting villain and a serious threat to Luffy (cause even if you assume a VA is stronger, we still need to see why they're stronger. An interesting fght style needs time to be developed). That'd take at least a few chapters.
Once again, I never said that Luffy fighting a Vice Admiral would be interesting.
I only said that he could do it this time without the need of underestimation, because he has a lot of awesome fighters helping him.To everyone who's suggested these kinds of ideas I wonder, what happened to the underdog? Just because someone seems like they can't win doesn't mean they actually can't. Really, I guess I should be glad because the fact that so many people believe that the protagonists cause is hopeless means the author is doing his job.
I don't think you're seeing the big picture.
Let's see my point of view on this subject:
-Luffy is the main character of a shonen manga, meaning that he gets plot armor not to die and will be the strongest man in the world when the series ends.
-We're only still in the half of the story.
-Luffy is one of the 11 Supernovas, meaning, one of the 11 most dangerous rookies that's trying to swarm in the New World.
-The Shichibukais are the 7 Pirates the World Government choosed to help, due to their bigass power and their big name in the world.
-Moria and Crocodile were defeated by Luffy only due to underestimation and would clearly defeat Luffy if it wasn't for Underestimation and luck from Luffy.
-Moria and Crocodile are one of the weakest, if not the weakest, Shichibukais.
-The Admirals are 3 of the hundreds of marines that were chosen to be the highest ranked.
-Luffy got dominated by one of them and would without any doubt be defeated by the other one.
-The Vice Admirals are only one step below the Admirals, and excuse me, but I don't believe that there are only 3 great men in the Marine and then suddenly it goes to random fodder that Luffy can defeat. The Vice Admirals are still strongest than Luffy.Now, Oda needs Luffy to be important in this battle, otherwise, it was pointless for Luffy to participate in it and have 2 arcs of preparation for the event.
He can achieve that if Luffy defeats someone important and maybe save Ace (But no doubt that he won't just enter and save Ace and then go away)So, how will Oda make Luffy defeat someone very important, when its clear that if the person is important, it would destroy Luffy?
There are 2 choices:-Oda can do the same he did with Luffy VS Crocodile and Luffy VS Moria and put Luffy's stronger opponent underestimating him and Luffy using an amazing will to defeat him.
Or:
-Oda can do what he never did until now and make Luffy fight a strong opponent that doesn't underestimate Luffy using his teammates to help him.
Or Oda could go in a different Fashion and make Luffy just go around defeating the weakest guys (Fodder) while the real battles are between the Whitebeard Crew and the great Government.
Or even another different Fashion, that I don't know off.
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The only thing I know is that Oda isn't Kishimoto, he is realistic, he doesn't pull of Naruto VS Pain, he doesn't make Luffy defeat someone that's obviously stronger than him and should be, otherwise he wouldn't have the rank he does have (Crocodile, Moria and arguably _Lucci) in a 1 VS 1, Mano a Mano, without any luck, underestimation and whatever factor Oda decides to add.
Its that simple, really…._
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you don't like michael phelps smoking weed?
anyways
if Croc goes vs WB he'll get his ass kickedIf Croc gets against WB after WB fights the Admirals or BB, WB will get his ass kicked.
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How do you know that when you don't even know how strong Momonga is? Don't forget that when Iva warned Luffy about the people who will be at the war, he mentioned the vice admirals as well.
Ivankov: Oh, don't be a FOOL!! Hyou, fight against the very CENTER of power?! Do hyou know the strength of Whitebeard?! Do hyou know the strength…...of the admirals and vice admirals being sent to stop him?! How many lives DO hyou have, anyway?! (Chapter 540)
If Oda wanted to have Monmoga be a rival to Luffy then he wouldn't have made that particular VA get overpowered by Hancock. Even if Monmoga is strong, a really food fight would have an more interesting fighting style. Besides that, the VAs and Admirals were mentioned as a whole, that sentence doesn't imply one on one fights as you're suggesting.
This may sound weird, but don't think so realistically. Even if you believe a VA is a match for Luffy, the author has done nothing but show them off as side characters. There's no build up to a Luffy vs. Vice Admiral fight, so it has no reason to happen.
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Hey, Jadosra, I actually agree with everything above this part I quoted from your post, except….I would not put such a negative spin on it.
There was chance, there was luck on Luffy's side in his battles against Croc and Moria, but he won because of his own abilities and determination in the end, and he did it despite the odds being against him. But, this has been argued many times before. So...
The only thing I know is that Oda isn't Kishimoto, he is realistic, he doesn't pull of Naruto VS Pain, he doesn't make Luffy defeat someone that's obviously stronger than him and should be, otherwise he wouldn't have the rank he does have (Crocodile, Moria and arguably _Lucci) in a 1 VS 1, Mano a Mano, without any luck, underestimation and whatever factor Oda decides to add.
Its that simple, really….
See, you lost me here, cause according to you this has happened twice already. I can't help but shake my head because if Luffy does defeat anyone above a shichibukai or admiral, someone like you will just point out any break Luffy got and push it as an unfair advantage. You don't want what you think is unrealistic to happen, what according to you the unrealistic has already happened. If Luffy does beat a shichibukai in the future, trust me, he will do it because he got lucky, because you'll be the first one to point it out to me and every poster who so much as suggests Luffy has talent, on this site, always and forever.
Actually, it's the reason why I still want Magellan to come back as a rival for Luffy. He's perfect because he is:
-Seemingly stronger then Luffy. Invincible even. THIS, is interesting.
-Not a shichibukai! Luffy can beat this guy any without taking out any of these seemingly invincible power houses. It seems like everyone wins with this guy. Plus, if you want to you can complain that Magellan wouldn't have one if Bon Clay didn't save him. See, perfect from everyone!-A high ranking, important person and an interesting character. Everything Monmoga isn't.
-Hates Luffy.
-Is party to Ace's capture. He didn't directly do it like Blackbeard, but as warden he's in full support of Ace staying a prison and being executed. When the time comes, he can be a perfect wall blocking Luffy from saving Ace's life.
-He's one of the few characters who can symbolize Luffy's fight to save Ace. Guys like Donflamingo, Mihawk, Monmoga, or whatever might be strong enough to fight Luffy, but they can't a relevant block to Luffy's cause because those guys don't have a strong reason to stop Luffy from saving Ace. They either don't care or haven't know Luffy long enough.So yeah, that's my alternative to Luffy vs. a VA….cause that's incredibly boring. Boring cannot happen in this manga, because Luffy has a track record of getting into wild, over the top battles. Like it or not, his fight will get top billing even if it's not against the strongest guy in the area, so whoever that other opponent is needs to be able to keep things interesting.
Also, does it count as a double post when the other one is on the other page? That's a tough one...._
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Why would Magellan be in the war though? When he said he was going to go after Luffy, the Gates of Justice were still closed. When they were opened, he went inside Impel Down and confronted Bon Kurei. We also know that Teach and his crew is up and moving again thanks to their newest crew member, Shiryuu. It sounds to me with Impel Down a complete mess and a Shichibukai still running around inside, Magellan has his hands full at the moment.
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Why would Magellan be in the war though? When he said he was going to go after Luffy, the Gates of Justice were still closed. When they were opened, he went inside Impel Down and confronted Bon Kurei. We also know that Teach and his crew is up and moving again thanks to their newest crew member, Shiryuu. It sounds to me with Impel Down a complete mess and a Shichibukai still running around inside, Magellan has his hands full at the moment.
The desire to stop Luffy is an excellent motivation regardless of those reasons you listed. See, every problem in Impel Down has an easy solution.
-Blackbeard might not care about Magellan. We don't know what his plan is, but we know the goal of it involves Whitebeard who is currently at Marineford. After he does whatever he wants here, Blackbeard can just leave. Considering how easy he got in last time and the state that the prison is in, it's easy to imagine BB and crew leaving after he's done there which still leaving Magellan in fighting condition. Plus, that could make him even angrier, which can work even better for a Magellan/Luffy rematch.
-Any damage or prisoners can be handled by the other guards. While they failed to stop Luffy's team, they showed themselves capable of dealing with the rest. I'll point out that those prisoners (some of which we an assume where from level 5 since they were Iva's Okamas) wouldn't have beaten the Demon Beasts if not for Luffy, Croc, and Jimbei.
-Besides that, Magellan thoroughly has the means to get to Impel Down given his rank. Right now, the only physical obstacle between him and Luffy is distance.
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Hey, Jadosra, I actually agree with everything above this part I quoted from your post, except….I would not put such a negative spin on it.
There was chance, there was luck on Luffy's side in his battles against Croc and Moria, but he won because of his own abilities and determination in the end, and he did it despite the odds being against him. But, this has been argued many times before. So…
At the beginning, Luffy had 0% chances of defeating Crocodile or Moria.
However, due to underestimation, luck and help from friends, the chances got to 20%Of course, someone like Buggy, no matter how underestimated he would be, would still die at the hands of a Shichibukai.
Same thing for Mr 3, Coby, etc.However, Luffy, being the mothafucking beast he is, doesn't fuck around "Oh, so you won't kill me and you'l leave me in this hole, hun?"
I CAME BACK, BROTHA"Oh, so you don't do any attacks with your powerful fruit and decide do use that hook instead, hun?""
Well, FUCK YOU!!! GOMU GOMU NO STORM!!!"Oh, so you stay there sleeping while this guy is quick to bust me, hun?"
WELL, TAKE THIS VOLCANO ON YOH FACE!!!"Oh, so you start punching like an insaneman and speaking bad of me, hun?"
WELL, BITCH, TAKE THIS JET SHELL ON YOH ASS AND GET THAT TOWER IN YOH HEAD, BIATCH.Meaning, Shichibukais >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Luffy overall.
However, due to the Shichibukais underestimating Luffy, due to his luck and due to help from friends it goes from Shichibukais >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Luffy to Shichibukais >>> Luffy.Does that make it unimpressive that Luffy defeated them? Hell no, they're still overpowered bitches that could just stay in the bathroom shitting and still gave someone like Don Krieg a run for their money.
Does that mean Luffy is Shichibukai level? Absolutely not, its true that he is fucking strong if he was able to defeat Shichibukais, but it doesn't change that he needed help, luck and underestimation from the opponent to do it.
Which, according to my prediction, won't be needed at all in the end of the series.See, you lost me here, cause according to you this has happened twice already. I can't help but shake my head because if Luffy does defeat anyone above a shichibukai or admiral, someone like you will just point out any break Luffy got and push it as an unfair advantage. You don't want what you think is unrealistic to happen, what according to you the unrealistic has already happened. If Luffy does beat a shichibukai in the future, trust me, he will do it because he got lucky, because you'll be the first one to point it out to me and every poster who so much as suggests Luffy has talent, on this site, always and forever.
But of course, I agree 100% with you. Luffy can defeat a Shichibukai/Vice Admiral in this arc, I see no reason why not
Fuck, if Oda wanted, he could make Luffy defeat motherfucking Kizaru and make him shit himself and run away from fear.
But of course, someone in the level of Vice Admirals/Shichibukais and above can't be defeated by the current strenght of Luffy without having some luck in the match.
Meaning that I won't get surprised if Kizaru loses to Luffy, but its obvious that Oda, not being the Kishifag he is, would do something like:-Kizaru being distracted
-Kizaru underestimating Luffy
-Kizaru getting completely mad when Luffy manages to find Light's weakness (whatever that is) and then uses random attacks like a madman
-Kizaru not using his speed of light and just going around showing Luffy that he's strong.
-Kizaru fighting Luffy while fighting Ivankok, Boa Hancock, Inazuma and Jinbei.Etc Etc.
Actually, it's the reason why I still want Magellan to come back as a rival for Luffy. He's perfect because he is:
Magellan sounds a good rival to me, but Luffy needs either some attack to go against Poison (Haki?) and needs Magellan to be too dependent on his fruit or… again... some spin of luck like the ones I said above about Kizaru.
Seriously, OneMoment, you seem to think of me as a fanboy of the Shichibukais/Marines/Whatever.
I'm not, I just find that anyone who thinks that Luffy, who is still a rookie (I don't care if he's a main character, HE IS STILL A ROOKIE, GET THIS IN YOUR MINDS) is able to defeat a Shichibukai 1 on 1 without any luck, help or underestimation/insanity from the opponent, specially when Oda made it pretty clear that Crocodile and Moria underestimated him, and that Luffy still almost died, even though their underestimation, is seeing the manga in the wrong perspective.
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My question is, why doesn't Boa just stone-ify 99% of the fodder coming from Whitebeard's side?
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She still didn't have time to do so
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[hide]@onemoment:
The desire to stop Luffy is an excellent motivation regardless of those reasons you listed. See, every problem in Impel Down has an easy solution.
-Blackbeard might not care about Magellan. We don't know what his plan is, but we know the goal of it involves Whitebeard who is currently at Marineford. After he does whatever he wants here, Blackbeard can just leave. Considering how easy he got in last time and the state that the prison is in, it's easy to imagine BB and crew leaving after he's done there which still leaving Magellan in fighting condition. Plus, that could make him even angrier, which can work even better for a Magellan/Luffy rematch.
-Any damage or prisoners can be handled by the other guards. While they failed to stop Luffy's team, they showed themselves capable of dealing with the rest. I'll point out that those prisoners (some of which we an assume where from level 5 since they were Iva's Okamas) wouldn't have beaten the Demon Beasts if not for Luffy, Croc, and Jimbei.
-Besides that, Magellan thoroughly has the means to get to Impel Down given his rank. Right now, the only physical obstacle between him and Luffy is distance.
[/hide]
But how does Magellan know for sure though that Luffy got out of the Tarai Current and (about to be) into the war? Or why does he even feel the need to go since Luffy's chance of survival is low? We know Luffy will survive but the characters in the manga do not. After all, Luffy has beeen called an ant compared to the major fighters in this war. -
My question is, why doesn't Boa just stone-ify 99% of the fodder coming from Whitebeard's side?
Hancock mentions that her power works due to the "wicked desires of the heart." So she can't use it on anyone she hasn't seduced. Basically, she has to get their attention first.
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Basically, the Whitebeards are all gay.
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It's no wonder they get along so well, then.
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yeah but it's a bit creepy when Whitebeard calls them his children…
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Why did both threads that I'm looking at turn gross?
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So I went and downloaded one piece colour works one and looked at ODA'S nami from 1997 and then the one from this chapters colour spread and I was like WOWOWOWOWOW!!! Her tits got a real boob job. Seriously, when you compare it's really that much bigger. One piece is in real time right? so even through the years the characters won't age. It hasn't really been a year in the one piece world….. Her tits must have haki to grow that MUCH in less that a year.
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@Jadorsa:
Well…this has never happened before. I think I see where you're coming from, though I still don't argree with it. I think we can both agree that Luffy won the day thanks to luck, or as you say underestimation in some form. However, I don't believe the point was to make a weaker opponent beat stronger ones, but rather make a losing character seem strong after the fact. The story shouldn't be making a point that Moria should have won after Luffy leaves the arc.
But, my real problem there with that is, arrogance is part of Moria and Croc's personality. Even after losing to Luffy, do these guys seem any different? I still see the same confidence on Croc's face despite jail, he's just wearing prison clothes now. Same with Moria. Look at this very chapter. Ao Kiji, Kizaru, and Whitebeard are all in a battle with the strongest guy in the world, and what are they doing? They're messing around. Ao Kiji went "whoops" upon getting shattered into pieces. Whitebeard has smiled the entire time despite his opponents being the best in the world. Kizaru took a second to shout "Scary!" after his attack was blocked. This is not taking your opponent seriously. In short, my point is arrogance is a common trait that all these men share. So, to say that "if so and so didn't underestimate Luffy they'd win," feels like you're asking to change the characters themselves. After all, that arrogance will always be there, and with that comes underestimation. So I think it's out of character to remove that estimation, and that annoys me because I feel you're basically saying "if I was controling Moria he'd win."
It's the same with that insanity. While I don't believe in this idea, or at least that it changed how Moria fought, who's to say Moria wouldn't go nuts again when another fighter punched him in the head a few times? Considering how easily that can happen in the one piece world, this opinion seems trivial and more of a weak excuse to persuade for Moria's side.
And just so we all remember, the previous posts were more concerned about who Luffy would and could fight at Marineford, why VAs are or aren't a bad idea, and why shichibukai would make for a better fight despite Luffy apparent level, and again why I believe Magellan is an even better fight then that.
Lastly, people really need to remember the underdog. When did we start complaining so much about seemingly inferior fighters defeating strong opponents?
Oh yeah, Naruto.
But how does Magellan know for sure though that Luffy got out of the Tarai Current and (about to be) into the war? Or why does he even feel the need to go since Luffy's chance of survival is low? We know Luffy will survive but the characters in the manga do not. After all, Luffy has beeen called an ant compared to the major fighters in this war.
Does Magellan think that Luffy's chances are low? I remember seeing that Jimbei was worried about getting past the next gate, but we haven't seen Magellan's thoughts since they left.
I'd say that, at the very least, I don't know if it's in Magellan's character to make an assumption like that. Wouldn't capturing prisoners by more of a priority then assuming an act of nature killed them? Especially when they not only opened the gates one time (regardless of circumstances), but one of the escapees is a fishman who can at least survive in this current and continue to escape. We're both speculating here but there seems like more reasons to go then to stay right now.
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So I went and downloaded one piece colour works one and looked at ODA'S nami from 1997 and then the one from this chapters colour spread and I was like WOWOWOWOWOW!!! Her tits got a real boob job. Seriously, when you compare it's really that much bigger. One piece is in real time right? so even through the years the characters won't age. It hasn't really been a year in the one piece world….. Her tits must have haki to grow that MUCH in less that a year.
@Bad-Beat:
Just keep it in your pants dude.
I think that should do.
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@Jadasora:
But of course, someone in the level of Vice Admirals/Shichibukais and above can't be defeated by the current strenght of Luffy without having some luck in the match.
I'm not, I just find that anyone who thinks that Luffy, who is still a rookie (I don't care if he's a main character, HE IS STILL A ROOKIE, GET THIS IN YOUR MINDS) is able to defeat a Shichibukai 1 on 1 without any luck, help or underestimation/insanity from the opponent, specially when Oda made it pretty clear that Crocodile and Moria underestimated him, and that Luffy still almost died, even though their underestimation, is seeing the manga in the wrong perspective.
I'm interested in your use of the word "luck". Do you mean to say better explained? For example: In order for Luffy to beat "Someone in the level of Vice Admirals/Shichibukais" there would need to be a good explanation for it. And the larger the gap between Luffy and his foe the better the explanation has to be.
I think I get what you're saying though, that the reason Luffy can't fight anyone higher than Shichibukai/Vice Admiral on equal footing is, it won't be an even fight, and thus uninteresting. It's like Aokiji vs. Spandam, not worth watching because it's pretty clear who'll win. I'm thinking it's the reason why people look forward to championship matches, because it's supposed to be even, and it's the best match-up of that type the particular event has to offer, like boxing in its glory days. But who knows though, I throw caution to the wind because Oda can do whatever the heck he wants, whether we buy it or not, is up to us. But yeah, I agree with you that a straight up fight between Luffy and an Admiral, Vice-Admiral, or Shichibukai probably isn't going to happen, on the basis that the fight wouldn't be convincing.
But the way the series has been progressing recently, I'm thinking Luffy's battle will be one in which he has to use his haki abilities and gain some mastery over them. That's why I can see him going up against someone like Doflamingo. My reasoning is, that Doflamingo was the recent arch-vilian in the Sabaody mini-arc, and overcoming him would probably require a lot of, or at the very least, a unique use of haki.
I'm on a quasi-roller coaster ride on the subject of who has the advantage in the Marines vs. WB Pirates fight. At first it was the Marines hands down, now with the introduction of WB's power, and his division leaders, who knows. I think Oda is trying really hard to make the sides seem even, maybe too hard, but I look forward to next week.
By the way, from the last spread it kinda looks like Marco does have wings. I can see where "Blue Pheonix" Zoan is coming from. After looking up the Wikipedia article on Flame, click here for the article, I saw a picture of a series of flames, and in the text box below the picture there was an explanation on how different colored flames where produced. The following is an excerpt:
"…On the left a rich fuel with no premixed oxygen produces a yellow sooty diffusion flame; on the right a lean fully oxygen premixed flame produces no soot and the flame color is produced by molecular radicals…"
So I'm guessing Marco has a burn type ability, and the ability allows him to burn anything he wishes. Or he's a Logia type, and his substance is oxygen, I don't get where people are saying gasoline though, perhaps I'm digging to deep and not looking at the obvious. And it would be something if he was an Oil Man, but I want to believe he has a Zoan type DF because it would show a good amount of variety, there's been so many Logia types recently. I did like Jozu's diamond ability, and it was fun to find out, him taking a slash from Mihawk and all. I know, I know, Jozu's ability might be Paramecia, but it seems so Logia-ish.
Pic. of Marco from the last spread included. It looks like wings, but then again it could be just him taking Kizaru's blast head on.
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I say how can those not be wings? looks like lost feathers flapping around and everything.
Folks who read One Piece… Just better people. ¯\(ツ)/¯
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@Jadorsa:
Well…this has never happened before. I think I see where you're coming from, though I still don't argree with it. I think we can both agree that Luffy won the day thanks to luck, or as you say underestimation in some form. However, I don't believe the point was to make a weaker opponent beat stronger ones, but rather make a losing character seem strong after the fact. The story shouldn't be making a point that Moria should have won after Luffy leaves the arc.
No, the point was definately to say that a weaker character managed to defeat a stronger character.
The whole point between Luffy and Crocodile and Luffy VS Moria was that Crocodile and Moria had superior bounties to him even before they froze, and that they are incredibly powerful (Crocodile dominating an entire country, Moria having a Zombie Empire with him), yet Luffy, due to luck, underestimation, help from friends and his will, as long as being rubber, brought the guy who was atleast two times stronger than him.
That is the whole point of the underground thing you were talking about.
Except that Oda is realistic and doesn't make a 1 VS 1 Mano a Mano fair fight, otherwise it would be like Naruto VS Pain (Read: Stupid)But, my real problem there with that is, arrogance is part of Moria and Croc's personality. Even after losing to Luffy, do these guys seem any different? I still see the same confidence on Croc's face despite jail, he's just wearing prison clothes now. Same with Moria. Look at this very chapter. Ao Kiji, Kizaru, and Whitebeard are all in a battle with the strongest guy in the world, and what are they doing? They're messing around. Ao Kiji went "whoops" upon getting shattered into pieces. Whitebeard has smiled the entire time despite his opponents being the best in the world. Kizaru took a second to shout "Scary!" after his attack was blocked. This is not taking your opponent seriously. In short, my point is arrogance is a common trait that all these men share. So, to say that "if so and so didn't underestimate Luffy they'd win," feels like you're asking to change the characters themselves. After all, that arrogance will always be there, and with that comes underestimation. So I think it's out of character to remove that estimation, and that annoys me because I feel you're basically saying "if I was controling Moria he'd win."
That is incorrect, and I can use AoKiji and Kizaru easily to prove you wrong.
Altough Moria, Crocodile, AoKiji and Kizaru have their arrogance and quirks, that doesn't change the fighting style.
First of all, I can pretty much guarantee you that Crocodile won't bring a poisoned hook and be randomly attacking Whitebeard with it, nor that Moria will be sitting sleeping and smilling while his doppelgangel does the job against Whitebeard. Which was what Moria and Crocodile did (So, back to my argument, if Moria and Crocodile took Luffy as seriously as someone like Whitebeard)But the Admirals hold even more reasoning than the 2 Shichibukais.
Kizaru and AoKiji both had the same personality when fighting the Straw Hats and when fighting Whitebeard, however, there were clear differences in the fight itself:
-SH's VS AoKiji, Aokiji calmly made a sword out of ice, then he was surprised when Sanji kicked it, he freezed Zoro and Sanji, then they all got out because of Robin being frozen.
AoKiji was lazy and wasn't doing anything, so Luffy atacked him, after a battle, Luffy sent AoKiji, who was joking around, to the air.
AoKiji broke in pieces and came back to an Ice Time.On the other hand, against Whitebeard, he wasn't relaxing, he wasn't being calm and he didn't just freeze the tsunamis and go back to his chair (in fact, he could've done it without even leaving the chair, which suits his personality best), he jumped, picked 5 Ice Lances, threw him, then, as soon as he was broken by Whitebeard, he came back in pieces out of nowhere and froze the entire bay, this in a tenth of the time against SH's and another tenth of the time against Luffy.
-Kizaru was joking around, looking at X Drake being a dinosaur and casually kicking someone at the speed of light, he also used a kick on Apoo, came back, another kick, and then, just to be badass, pulled a little finger and made an arrow, thus standing there preparing an arrow.
Did he do that against the Whitebeard pirates?
Of course not, he jumped out at the speed of light and sent dozens of light rays to try not to give any chance for Whitebeard to defend.In conclusion, their personality is the same, their fighting style is not.
Besides, even if you were right, Oda made Crocodile's and Moria's personalities like that in purpose to give Luffy an advantage, which is another luck factor.
However, even then, you're wrong either ways, so no need to bring up the above sentence, lol.It's the same with that insanity. While I don't believe in this idea, or at least that it changed how Moria fought, who's to say Moria wouldn't go nuts again when another fighter punched him in the head a few times? Considering how easily that can happen in the one piece world, this opinion seems trivial and more of a weak excuse to persuade for Moria's side.
The Insanity came from the situation itself (again, luck), Luffy destroyed his plans, surprised him out of nowhere, used his own power, punched Moria in the face (Some say it also has to do with the punches in the face, and its a possibility I didn't think of before, after all, we never saw someone getting that much beating and still getting up again), he then injected 1000 shadows and started punching like a madman.
Again, if Moria didn't underestimate him, if Moria wasn't in a bad situation, if Luffy didn't use his own ability (thanks to Lola and his will) and if Moria didn't joke around with him the first time they met, he wouldn't be enraged and mad.So, no…
Lastly, people really need to remember the underdog. When did we start complaining so much about seemingly inferior fighters defeating strong opponents?
Oh yeah, Naruto.
I always found it annoying, and thank god Oda doesn't do it like that.
If there's one thing I hate is hyping the opponent to be the best thing ever, and then without any explanation, a single powerup is enough to defeat the so anticipated opponent.Mangas like Fist of the North Star weren't stupid like this, they hyped the villain, but they never showed that Ken was stronger/weaker than him, nor that they are different in any way, because there weren't rankings, and the little rankings there were, Ken was a renegade from them all.
One Piece also avoids this, using a balance system to balance Luffy with the opponents that would have realistically defeated him otherwise.
I'm interested in your use of the word "luck". Do you mean to say better explained? For example: In order for Luffy to beat "Someone in the level of Vice Admirals/Shichibukais" there would need to be a good explanation for it. And the larger the gap between Luffy and his foe the better the explanation has to be.
Yep, its pretty much that:
Crocodile:
-Underestimation
-Cockyness
-Help from Nico Robin, Pell and Nico Robin again.
-Luck overall (remember that moment when Luffy didn't do it on purpose but spit on Crocodile and Crocodile avoided? And then the water fell? Yeah, that was luck overall, different from the other term I use when saying "luck")And to make things better from the explanation point of view, even with that, Luffy was almost dead, and lost 2 times and almost lost 1.
And to make them even better, Luffy needed a lot to defeat him, being necessary to punch him a thousand of times and going through pure bedrock until finally destroying a lot of buildings and going through the floor.
And Crocodile is the Weakest of the 8 Shichibukais
Moria:
-Underestimation
-Cockyness
-Lazyness overall
-Insanity in the end
-Help from Lola
-The whole situation in which Moria was in (the only advantage overall was Odz, and even then, he wasn't much preocupied with the SH's, and more with having Odz for future battles).And even better, Luffy could be almost dead for the whole thing if it wasn't "Fatigue and pain switch" thing.
And to make things even better, Moria not only needed 2 Jet Shells on the belly, not only needed the shadows to get out, not only needed to have many shadows in his mouth, as he still needed a tower that was 6 times his side (and Moria was as tall as Ozd) to actually bring him down.
And as if Oda wasn't satisfacted enough, he still make Moria be awake and fighting randomly one week later.
AND MORIA IS THE SECOND WEAKEST SHICHIBUKAI.
So yeah, its exactly what you're saying, the great explanations Oda gets for Luffy to both look amazing (Let's be honest, no matter how Moria underestimates Luffy, Luffy still needs to be hella strong and have a great will to defeat him) and to also say "But Moria would have won if Luffy didn't have the upperhand in the situation, because Moria is a freaking Shichibukai"
And let's be honest, if it wasn't for that kind of situation, wouldn't you guys feel less excited about this war now? You could just think: "Meh, lol, Luffy owned two of the Shichibukais, so this should be easy for the WB pirates", when Oda didn't want us to see it that way? When he clearly created situations for Luffy to win?
Just sayin
I think I get what you're saying though, that the reason Luffy can't fight anyone higher than Shichibukai/Vice Admiral on equal footing is, it won't be an even fight, and thus uninteresting. It's like Aokiji vs. Spandam, not worth watching because it's pretty clear who'll win. I'm thinking it's the reason why people look forward to championship matches, because it's supposed to be even, and it's the best match-up of that type the particular event has to offer, like boxing in its glory days. But who knows though, I throw caution to the wind because Oda can do whatever the heck he wants, whether we buy it or not, is up to us. But yeah, I agree with you that a straight up fight between Luffy and an Admiral, Vice-Admiral, or Shichibukai probably isn't going to happen, on the basis that the fight wouldn't be convincing.
Yeah, you're right.
The only way besides the one Oda is using to make Luffy win against a Shichibukai after all the hype he gave them would be to go the Naruto way and suddenly create a bankai or blood limit or ultra 9 Tails mode (read: Stupid powerup that normally doesn't even have consistency) to defeat someone, and I find that just stupid, so, I'm really glad Oda makes it this way.
But the way the series has been progressing recently, I'm thinking Luffy's battle will be one in which he has to use his haki abilities and gain some mastery over them. That's why I can see him going up against someone like Doflamingo. My reasoning is, that Doflamingo was the recent arch-vilian in the Sabaody mini-arc, and overcoming him would probably require a lot of, or at the very least, a unique use of haki.
I also do believe that as soon as Luffy learns something like what Rayleigh has (Be it Haki or whatever else it might be), Luffy will start going up in a speedier manner.
In fact, I think that as soon as Luffy gets Haki, he pretty much gets to Crocodile's level immediatly, unless in the desert or unless Crocodile has something under his sleeve that didn't show us before (Its possible, as Crocodile was underestimating Luffy, after all).
However, I wouldn't say that I expect Luffy to defeat someone as strong as the Shichibukais fairly in this arc YET, I think that he still needs a little more sagas (1, 2?) before he gets that strong, but don't quote me on this part, this one is just speculation. -
But the way the series has been progressing recently, I'm thinking Luffy's battle will be one in which he has to use his haki abilities and gain some mastery over them. That's why I can see him going up against someone like Doflamingo. My reasoning is, that Doflamingo was the recent arch-vilian in the Sabaody mini-arc, and overcoming him would probably require a lot of, or at the very least, a unique use of haki.
Mm, I don't think Donflamingo is going to go down in this arc. There's a reason why he's the last Shichibukai to reveal his power and with all his trade and talk about the New Era, he is probably going to get an arc all by himself after the war, just like Vegapunk. The next reason why I don't think Luffy is going to fight Donflamingo is because there is simply no reason for Donflamingo to stop Luffy. He does not appear to be concern with the goal of the WG. I will stick to my view that Luffy isn't going to fight anyone in this war. He would probably interact with a few characters upon arriving there and then make his way to save Ace. Jimbei and the rest of the escaped prisoners will help to take care of the fodders on their way there.
Regarding Shichibukai's strength, I feel that it is all wild speculation because Oda didn't state that Crocodile and Moria is the weakest and second weakest Shichibukai respectively unless I missed out something like maybe he mentioned in during the Q&A section which I didn't read. :ninja: However, I agree that Luffy is and should not be strong enough to win a fight against a Shichibukai yet. If not if he loses to someone in the New World, wouldn't it seem that that opponent is stronger than a Shichibukai?
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@LongFist:
I say how can those not be wings? looks like lost feathers flapping around and everything.
One of them looks upside down, for one
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One of them looks upside down, for one
Looks like from spinning one wing is just pointed down, thats my explination. I've seen birds and bats get into that exact position before, having a wing up and a wing down, so i'm still on the wing wagon. I mean look at the feather like objects, what do you make of that?
Folks who read One Piece… Just better people. ¯\(ツ)/¯
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@LongFist:
Looks like from spinning one wing is just pointed down, thats my explination. I've seen birds and bats get into that exact position before, having a wing up and a wing down, so i'm still on the wing wagon. I mean look at the feather like objects, what do you make of that?
i don't know but if marco really has phoenix or bird or wing or feathers DB,but if he did, the wing or feather is on his hand/arm like Pell/real bird or at his back like lafitte??
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I seriously see no wings on Marco at all. Somebody do a funny yet clever illustration that points out these "wings" cuz I see a logia user who's fire or w/e it is showing/reforming his body.
Zik Of The 7 Swords: Vision? What do you know about my vision? My vision would turn your world upside down, tear asunder your illusions, and send the sanctuary of your own ignorance crashing down around you. Now ask yourself, Are you ready to see that vision?
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The only guy I can see Luffy having a serious fight with in this war is Smoker.
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Oh lawdy, I dared speak against Whitebeard…
Yeah, let's forget that Kizaru's blasts were intercepted, and Joz is made of diamond. No, WB's just magically stronger and would take all that without flinching. Because this is totally DBZ and everything.
Well considering Jose can turn to diamond, the hardest natural material in the world, why wouldn't WB have him take a hit. If WB got hit by Mihawk's blast, he'd feel that no doubt, but I'm sure he has a way to dampen or even completely dispel the attack. Just because Jose can get hit by a blast from a sword and be unaffected while WB might be affected doesn't mean Jose is stronger than WB. It just means that he is made of diamond. There's a reason why WB is captain, dubbed "Strongest Man in the World," and I'm sure in the coming chapters we will find out.
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@Zik:
I seriously see no wings on Marco at all. Somebody do a funny yet clever illustration that points out these "wings" cuz I see a logia user who's fire or w/e it is showing/reforming his body.
i'm not say that he has wing or something, but just asking base on the picture, as somebody saying that he has wing, where is his wing?on his hand like pell or on his back like lafitte…
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Heck WB may not be able to take on a direct hit from Mihawk, without getting injured, but that wouldnt necessarily make him weaker, he may be able to easily dodge it. But someone had to take the hit, otherwise the ship woulda gotten pwned.
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My fight prediction.
Luffy and Jimbei vs AkainuWith Luffy"s power of will and if they combine their powers they could probably fight equally against him !
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Marco seems to be partially transformed, his arms became wings, if you look at Marco's head in p 16-17, the lines in the top right corner next to his head look like wings, my guess would be he has the male phoenix fruit aka "Hou" ( Hou Hou no mi? ) which would explain blue flames. I really dont think Oda would go for something like mera mera no mi: model blue lolz.
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@Thousand:
The only guy I can see Luffy having a serious fight with in this war is Smoker.
getting
And how is luffy supposed to win? He can't win if he isn't able to punch smoker. And he has absolutely no control over his king haki to use it properly. He didn't managed to think about it against Magellan. I don't see why he will against smoker… -
getting
And how is luffy supposed to win? He can't win if he isn't able to punch smoker. And he has absolutely no control over his king haki to use it properly. He didn't managed to think about it against Magellan. I don't see why he will against smoker…How would Haki help against Magellan? The issue in fighting magellan isn't that hes untouchable, just that touching him is certain doom.
It would be really lame if Haki could just negate poison. -
@iSheep:
How would Haki help against Magellan? The issue in fighting magellan isn't that hes untouchable, just that touching him is certain doom.
It would be really lame if Haki could just negate poison.He woul have won if he had the power to knock magellan out. Which would have happened if he punched magellan with gear second and increased the strength of the attack with haki as the amazons did with the arrows.
His hands would have touched the poison but chances are high that the chief warden wold have beend KO! -
My fight prediction.
Luffy and Jimbei vs AkainuWith Luffy"s power of will and if they combine their powers they could probably fight equally against him !
… You know it's people like you that are the reason that the other side of the "Luffy having an impact on the war" debate laugh at us.
@MagneticMonkey:getting
And how is luffy supposed to win? He can't win if he isn't able to punch smoker. And he has absolutely no control over his king haki to use it properly. He didn't managed to think about it against Magellan. I don't see why he will against smoker…He managed to use it against a bunch of random wolves so I don't think controlling it will be a major issue. I'm sure, when the time is right, the Haki will manifest itself when Luffy really needs it. Against Magellan it wouldn't have made a difference as the issue was not about touching him but what happens after touching him. And it WOULD be lame if Haki could neutralize poison, that just makes no sense.
@MagneticMonkey:He woul have won if he had the power to knock magellan out. Which would have happened if he punched magellan with gear second and increased the strength of the attack with haki as the amazons did with the arrows.
His hands would have touched the poison but chances are high that the chief warden wold have beend KO!Magellan took a Jet Bazooka to the gut and it barely phased him then he took another Twin Jet Pistol to the gut and was still fine and dandy after. A Haki strengthened attack would have hurt him more but it would have, by no means, OTK'd him and against Magellan one touch is all that it needs.
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