General 'Haki' Discussion

[I9829Taeyeon]

@RomanceDawn:

I have a question about Haki. What is the general consensus on the blackening of the limbs and weapons? Rayleigh said Haki is like an invisible armor, yet we know the characters can see the black coating, at least I think that's what's intended by Oda's character Black Fist Zepher(?) from that last movie. Are we as readers seeing it to know its equipped and only us, or do the characters see it as well?

I suppose my other question would be is the blackened hardening just a higher level technique from the foundation that is the invisible armament?

I don't think the characters can see the blackening of the limbs and weapon. I think its for us, the readers, so that we would be able to distinguish who's using and who's not… that's after time skip when it became one of the prominent abilities being used. So no. I don't think that's how it works even for Black Fist Zephyr.

I think the characters just feel it spiritually. Like Peach boy sensing Luffy using CoA on PX.

[v-die]

@Red:

Honestly, we haven't seen the extent of Nami's and Usopp's strength of mind so I'm just assuming at the moment. As for Luffy, you notice that he mastered the CoC but he does not know how to pinpoint it. At Marineford, it was a random burst of emotions. At Fishman Island, he walked at least 100 feet away from the crew, into the center of the circle and blasted it. The Conquerer's Haki has a radius and anyone within that radius gets affected. Somehow, Rayleigh (being the badass that he is) can blast on certain people.

Wasn't "being able to control who is hit/not hit" one of the basics that Rayleigh teached Luffy? He did say he shouldn't use it till he mastered this part

[zxcv11791]

I think someone mentioned Luffy's arm turning black before so I'm pretty sure other characters can see it…

I always just figured the black amament is just a higher class of hardening where they focus the 'invisible' armor enough that its visible.

[flandrian15]

@DS:

Can anyone explain to me why if someone has armament haki that they wouldn't just keep it on all the time? Why turn it on and off when you can just keep it on all the time and prevent the risk for a surprise attack or something? Unless we're talking about someone like Luffy where the haki can prevent Luffy from stretching, which I"m not even sure has been shown to be the case, but with someone like Vergo, why doesn't he just keep it on all the time? Does anybody know? Do you need think about it constantly or it will turn off if you don't? Or is it like a light switch where you can turn it on, not really worry think it, and then turn it off? Does it require some sort of energy, which is why you don't keep it on all the time?

Does anybody have any answers?

It feels like there is indeed room for improvement here. I hate to start comparing manga's but a similar thing struck me with the Super Saiyans. I always wondered why they would start out not using it until the opponent was too strong to handle. Than Goku got the idea to try and be in Super sayian mode all the time, improving their stamina and controlling their forms better. Not saying Luffy should turn black all the time (although, with Afro, that would be cool) but that he perhaps learns to heighten his stamina in a similar manner if it is stamina that is preventing this, as we simply don't know.
The CoA that Rayleigh showed at the training island was different from Luffy's as well. Perhaps Luffy found his own way of using it but Rayleigh actually stopped that menacing elephant with CoA without touching it like he was wearing armor while Luffy has to turn his haki on and defend with his body. Did Rayleigh perhaps show a higher form of CoA?

[Clessenur]

@Red:

Honestly, we haven't seen the extent of Nami's and Usopp's strength of mind so I'm just assuming at the moment. As for Luffy, you notice that he mastered the CoC but he does not know how to pinpoint it. At Marineford, it was a random burst of emotions. At Fishman Island, he walked at least 100 feet away from the crew, into the center of the circle and blasted it. The Conquerer's Haki has a radius and anyone within that radius gets affected. Somehow, Rayleigh (being the badass that he is) can blast on certain people.

Not true, he can pinpoint it just fine as demonstrated at Sabaody.

[Shadowgreed]

@RomanceDawn:

1. I have a question about Haki. What is the general consensus on the blackening of the limbs and weapons? Rayleigh said Haki is like an invisible armor, yet we know the characters can see the black coating, at least I think that's what's intended by Oda's character Black Fist Zepher(?) from that last movie. Are we as readers seeing it to know its equipped and only us, or do the characters see it as well?

2. I suppose my other question would be is the blackened hardening just a higher level technique from the foundation that is the invisible armament?

1. I never thought about this before but this is something that Oda came up with after the time skip and it also seems to be Armament level 2 (I like to name it this way) and Vergo's full body is level 3, where your weapons or body grows in size. It seems like characters are no able to see it but they can sense it and Oda always makes somebody says If he/she is using haki but no the Hardening one (1, 2) so we can know that he/she use it on that attack.

2. Yes.

[desa]

@Red:

Honestly, we haven't seen the extent of Nami's and Usopp's strength of mind so I'm just assuming at the moment. As for Luffy, you notice that he mastered the CoC but he does not know how to pinpoint it. At Marineford, it was a random burst of emotions. At Fishman Island, he walked at least 100 feet away from the crew, into the center of the circle and blasted it. The Conquerer's Haki has a radius and anyone within that radius gets affected. Somehow, Rayleigh (being the badass that he is) can blast on certain people.

Luffy didn't affect the surrounding when he took care of fake Luffy.

[Red Hawk]

@desa:

Luffy didn't affect the surrounding when he took care of fake Luffy.

He probably shortened the radius of the blast. You can change the radius of the blast but once, someone enters the radius, he/she will be affected.

[desa]

@Cymelion:

You can definitely focus it on one subject - Shown by Rayleigh and Luffy on the training island.

Which is what I am getting at - an AOE CoC blast is going to be weaker than a directed blast - since the SH's are not fodder AOE isn't going to work no matter who uses it - but a concentrated blast focused solely on Usopp or Nami or Chopper might just knock them over - Brooke Robin Franky could go either way - Sanji Zoro and Luffy would tank that blast with little to no effect I believe.

Franky is too super to be affected.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Red:

He probably shortened the radius of the blast. You can change the radius of the blast but once, someone enters the radius, he/she will be affected.

Than the crew would have been affected when he blasted the fishmen occupied a wide range and were at some distance from Luffy.

[xxjoshxx]

Never mind was a silly question.

[RamistaR]

Too bad I had the time to see it! Yohohoho!
It was a silly question indeed. I would answer no by instinct.

[Shadowgreed]

@RamistaR:

Too bad I had the time to see it! Yohohoho!
It was a silly question indeed. I would answer no by instinct.

Dude what was the question?

[knceng]

@Red:

He probably shortened the radius of the blast. You can change the radius of the blast but once, someone enters the radius, he/she will be affected.

To control his CoC was one of the main objective of his training

!

[RamistaR]

@Shadowgreed:

Dude what was the question?

Yohohoho! Curiosity! He asked if Haki could enable someone to hit Perona in her ghost form.

[Clessenur]

@RamistaR:

Yohohoho! Curiosity! He asked if Haki could enable someone to hit Perona in her ghost form.

Hmm, It could result the ghost getting punched back into the body lol

! Just imagined Garp doing CPR

[MiyamotoMusashi]

@RomanceDawn:

I have a question about Haki. What is the general consensus on the blackening of the limbs and weapons? Rayleigh said Haki is like an invisible armor, yet we know the characters can see the black coating, at least I think that's what's intended by Oda's character Black Fist Zepher(?) from that last movie. Are we as readers seeing it to know its equipped and only us, or do the characters see it as well?

I suppose my other question would be is the blackened hardening just a higher level technique from the foundation that is the invisible armament?

Hardening is definitely not Oda´s way to show the usage of CoA because 1) we have seen people use CoA post-TS without their limbs turning black (Luffy vs Caesar when he used Gear2, Pekomz vs Caribou, Boo Chinjao vs Bobby Funk) and 2) the blackening has actually been mentioned as a technique by Luffy (Busoshoku: Koka), at least shortly after its introduction, to distinguish it from the already known, invisible CoA we have seen pre-TS. Considering that, characters should also be able to see it. Having said that, i also think it is also implied that it is a superior technique of CoA because of 1) the people using it (so far, we have only seen relatively strong guys using it, from the VAs on Punk Hazard to Chinjao, Burgess, Sabo and Garp! in this arc) and 2) manga logic, a named technique is pretty much always superior to an unnamed one.
In regards to Luffy alone, i think the combination of Hardening and Gear2 seems to result in Red Hawk (not too sure about this one though) since we have only seen him use this combination once if i remember correctly, in other instances, Luffy was either using Hardening alone or invisible CoA in combination with Gear2.
Btw, considering all that, it is somewhat an inconsistency considering that we have seen a few of the strongest people in the OP world in the Marineford arc but none of them was using Hardening.

[Shadowgreed]

@MiyamotoMusashi:

Hardening is definitely not Oda´s way to show the usage of CoA because

It actually is one way for Oda to let us know (Readers) that this person is using it but its also a stronger Armament Haki

1. we have seen people use CoA post-TS without their limbs turning black (Luffy vs Caesar when he used Gear2, Pekomz vs Caribou, Boo Chinjao vs Bobby Funk)

Each one of those scenes that you mentioned have something in common and is that Oda made a character say "I/he use Armament Haki"

an inconsistency considering that we have seen a few of the strongest people in the OP world in the Marineford arc but none of them was using Hardening.

Hardening is a pre time skip type of thing.

PS: spaces dude!

[MiyamotoMusashi]

@Shadowgreed:

It actually is one way for Oda to let us know (Readers) that this person is using it but its also a stronger Armament Haki

Each one of those scenes that you mentioned have something in common and is that Oda made a character say "I/he use Armament Haki"

Hardening is a pre time skip type of thing.

PS: spaces dude!

1. Which would make it quite redundant. So we are to assume characters never use CoA unless it is either visually indicated with blackening or verbally mentioned? Why would Sai not use Haki in the same tournament fight his brother uses it? Why would Sanji not use it against Vergo considering he was overwhelmed to a certain extent? The unanswered questions would pile up, making CoA a pretty flawed concept.

2. To be completely accurate, it was not mentioned verbally but implied considering who they were attacking, at least in case of Luffy and Pekomz.

3. Which proves my point, it is an inconsistency.

[Shadowgreed]

@MiyamotoMusashi:

1. Which would make it quite redundant. So we are to assume characters never use CoA unless it is either visually indicated with blackening or verbally mentioned? Why would Sai not use Haki in the same tournament fight his brother uses it? Why would Sanji not use it against Vergo considering he was overwhelmed to a certain extent? The unanswered questions would pile up, making CoA a pretty flawed concept.

Exactly, as of now Oda have been doing this every time a character uses it, Pekoms hits Caribou a Logia and proceeds to make a comment implying what he did and what will happen to overconfident Logias in the New World, Luffy grabbed Caesar, Robin proceeds to explain how Armament Haki works, Boo hits Funk and proceeds to make a comment about, none of them used the Hardening/visible armament, so Oda just trows some comments.

Sanji vs Vergos fight is still a mystery, it was implied a couple of times that Vergo was an Armament master and even Sanji makes echo of this but we didn't get any confirmation from Sanji using Haki during that fight (Observation or Armament), I don't know what Oda is planning to do with this but he will make it work somehow.

2. To be completely accurate, it was not mentioned verbally but implied considering who they were attacking, at least in case of Luffy and Pekomz.

We as readers knew what was going on but Oda didn't hesitate to make it obvious for us, Pekoms implied it and Robin/Franky explained, we're probably going to see hardening being used more often in the future, so Oda doesn't have to drop comment here and there.

3. Which proves my point, it is an inconsistency.

As of now it is. The same happens with Observation Haki, hell I think that this is even worse.

[Takto]

I don´t know guys. I interpreted the black color as a CoA improvement and that CoA is in every attack when someone is known as a haki/CoA. So, sanji, zoro, vergo etc. always do attack with CoA, except when they don´t use it, like zoro vs monet. I guess the not using CoA will be picked out by oda, like zoro vs monet :p.

There is one line that confused me since the chapter where the line was in came out. "he is though, i even used Busoshoku Attacks" -Luffy. He attacked Hody with hardening but said "Busoshoku" and not Kouka. This line actually means, that luffy has to "activate" CoA.

I try to find the chapter…

http://www.batoto.net/read/_/99151/one-piece_v65_ch637_by_mangarule/19

[moud]

@MiyamotoMusashi:

In regards to Luffy alone, i think the combination of Hardening and Gear2 seems to result in Red Hawk (not too sure about this one though) since we have only seen him use this combination once if i remember correctly

i think he used this combination "gear 2nd + hardening" in hawk rifle and there was no fire
the previous page clarifies that he was in gear 2nd if ur wondering

i have a question
can luffy do full body armament ?! since we know he can harden his giant arm which is at least 30 times bigger than his normal body
i never get the hype over vergo's technique

[Kishido]

@moud:

i think he used this combination "gear 2nd + hardening" in hawk rifle and there was no fire
the previous page clarifies that he was in gear 2nd if ur wondering

i have a question
can luffy do full body armament ?! since we know he can harden his giant arm which is at least 30 times bigger than his normal body
i never get the hype over vergo's technique

Dunno but I somehow can see Zoro doing full body CoA…

[moud]

maybe he can but i don't think it would fit his fighting style

[Shadowgreed]

@moud:

i think he used this combination "gear 2nd + hardening" in hawk rifle and there was no fire
the previous page clarifies that he was in gear 2nd if ur wondering

i have a question
can luffy do full body armament ?! since we know he can harden his giant arm which is at least 30 times bigger than his normal body
i never get the hype over vergo's technique

The hawk rifle is a spinning move, so even If his arm turns into fire it will get extinguish real quick and won't have the proportions of a Red Hawk.

He might be able to do a full Armament but I don't see the point in doing such thing, when you can just focus your armament in a single limb

[moud]

@Shadowgreed:

The hawk rifle is a spinning move, so even If his arm turns into fire it will get extinguish real quick and won't have the proportions of a Red Hawk.

He might be able to do a full Armament but I don't see the point in doing such thing, when you can just focus your armament in a single limb

it didn't get extinguished in the water lol , do u think the same fire wouldn't bear spinning
no actually the spinning would increase the fire cos it gives it more wind

[Psycrow]

Anyone else think Shanks might be able to give himself a haki arm?
The amazons can draw an arrow, imagine haki on the arrow tip, and it's there, and they fire and it stays on.
Well, Shanks surely has no trouble imagining himself with both arms, since he's had them before. The mental methods of controlling said arm would still be there.

[RobZilla]

@Psycrow:

Anyone else think Shanks might be able to give himself a haki arm?
The amazons can draw an arrow, imagine haki on the arrow tip, and it's there, and they fire and it stays on.
Well, Shanks surely has no trouble imagining himself with both arms, since he's had them before. The mental methods of controlling said arm would still be there.

The haki appears on the existing tip of the arrow ie it needs something to map itself too.

We've never seen anyone create anything purely out of haki, only applying an outer layer of haki to something.

[vagabond87]

@Shadowgreed:

Sanji vs Vergos fight is still a mystery, it was implied a couple of times that Vergo was an Armament master and even Sanji makes echo of this but we didn't get any confirmation from Sanji using Haki during that fight (Observation or Armament), I don't know what Oda is planning to do with this but he will make it work somehow.

Sorry to put this here but I do think it adds to this subject.

For me Vergo will be most probably revealed as metal paramecia user. I will explain it by examples from only few pages from chapters 680-682.
So.. here we can see that marines said that walls are steel in laboratory, its same place where Sanji and Vergo fight during next chapter. So either whole wall is made out of steel or it is covered in steel plates.

!

Here Vergo still has spoon on his face as some metals have magnetic properties, also food tend to stick to metal- thats why different kind of plates are covered in coating like teflon for example.
I dont want to go to detail, I am just throwing this in here, dont want to discuss it too much really.

!

As monstrous as Vergos haki could have been Sanji had 2 years of training and knows haki for sure being specialist in CoO, surely using also CoA to some extent.
BUT Sanji also builded up his body also with Okamas food, so it beside haki his legs should be amazingly durable.

As it is shown chapter later Sanji manages to shoot Vergo into METAL wall.

!

in volume 69 - english version and translation closest to perfection - Sanji directly asks Vergo is he is made out of metal, Vergo ignores the question.

Sanji was physically as strong if not stronger than Vergo as he was shown to send Vergo flying two times before underestimating Vergo hardness- not strength- and blocking one of his kick.
Even after thinner of his leg bones cracked he continued to fight Vergo good enough not to get any further damage.

Also their clash seemed for me pure leg vs leg without CoA haki being used. Why ? Because in clashes of CoA we get sparks. Almost every time, and always when two CoA hardenings hit each other- Chinjao vs Luffy, Burgess vs Sabo etc. Even in Sanji vs Vergo we gotten those "clash sparks" after Sanji gotten his leg damaged. Then fight continued without further wounds for either Sanji or Vergo.

! and here
!

So the biggest part of mystery that Sanji vs Vergo holded was presumably fact that Vergo simply is still unconfirmed Devil Fruit user, metal paramecia imo.

I know my way of thinking isnt same as most people and it takes actual thinking out of the box instead of following same patterns that we had in One Piece for years but this would perfectly solve mystery of unclear haki usage in this fight and explain quite well why Sanjis bone cracked. I dont but that Sanjis body was so damaged or that Vergos haki was so much better than Sanjis.
Haki and tekkai are not always explanation. Many people assumed that those must have been used in that fight but Oda often play on what we assume.

[Maju]

@RamistaR:

Yohohoho! Curiosity! He asked if Haki could enable someone to hit Perona in her ghost form.

since it's not her real body,i think not.haki is supposed to let people touch the "real body" of a user,but the ghost form of perona is just her soul out of his body,so you are not touching her body anyway

[Schabrak]

@vagabond87:

Sorry to put this here but I do think it adds to this subject.

You added the part about the iron walls at least. :D

[vagabond87]

@Schabrak:

You added the part about the iron walls at least. :D

Sure I did !

Vergo theory never dies!

[Sereques]

@moud:

i think he used this combination "gear 2nd + hardening" in hawk rifle and there was no fire
the previous page clarifies that he was in gear 2nd if ur wondering

i have a question
can luffy do full body armament ?! since we know he can harden his giant arm which is at least 30 times bigger than his normal body
i never get the hype over vergo's technique

That was just Hawk rifle not Red Hawk. Personally, I think Red hawk is more Gear 2nd base rather than haki. Gear 2nd produce steam from Luffy body, after TS, Luffy can do G2 on only the body part he needed. I think red hawk is Luffy using G2(pumping blood) faster to the point where it ignites instead of producing steam. Obviously, Haki will offer some sort of protection before he kills himself.

[vagabond87]

@Sereques:

That was just Hawk rifle not Red Hawk. Personally, I think Red hawk is more Gear 2nd base rather than haki. Gear 2nd produce steam from Luffy body, after TS, Luffy can do G2 on only the body part he needed. I think red hawk is Luffy using G2(pumping blood) faster to the point where it ignites instead of producing steam. Obviously, Haki will offer some sort of protection before he kills himself.

Its not naruto.

He would be burning out his body? Makes Zero sense.
Fire must be connected more to haki than to Gear Second.

Especially as now Sanji gets fired up without any spinning and I would connect this and Luffys Red Hawk to haki being mastered to some degree by both of them. We even seen one one of Whitebeard commanders firing up his sword during Whitebeard war.

We seen one of Boa sisters covering herself with flames while protecting herself with haki, she used a match to fire herself up while Sanji and Luffy probably use pure speed and friction to get their haki/air around them ignited.

Imo you missed with this.

[Clessenur]

@vagabond87:

Its not naruto.

He would be burning out his body? Makes Zero sense.
Fire must be connected more to haki than to Gear Second.

Especially as now Sanji gets fired up without any spinning and I would connect this and Luffys Red Hawk to haki being mastered to some degree by both of them. We even seen one one of Whitebeard commanders firing up his sword during Whitebeard war.

We seen one of Boa sisters covering herself with flames while protecting herself with haki, she used a match to fire herself up while Sanji and Luffy probably use pure speed and friction to get their haki/air around them ignited.

Imo you missed with this.

Are you trolling or something?

[Razh]

Doesn't it make more sense that Luffy's fist is so fast, the friction produces heat?

That's the way I see it anyway.

Better than using blood flow to ignite. It's like fire is the next level of steam or something.

[Maju]

@Razh:

Doesn't it make more sense that Luffy's fist is so fast, the friction produces heat?

That's the way I see it anyway.

Better than using blood flow to ignite. It's like fire is the next level of steam or something.

in fact that's the way it is.
a stupid way sadly,but it's how oda envisioned it,it's just friction

[vagabond87]

@Clessenur:

Are you trolling or something?

I am not. From my perspective it looks like you try to troll me now.

For me this makes far more sense than explaining fire with bigger blood pressure ir stuff like that.
Do you have any arguments against what I wrote or its all you wanted to write?

[Clessenur]

@vagabond87:

I am not. From my perspective it looks like you try to troll me now.

For me this makes far more sense than explaining fire with bigger blood pressure ir stuff like that.
Do you have any arguments against what I wrote or its all you wanted to write?

Actually what I was trying to address was your accusion of Sereques' post of being narutardish(because it slightly resembles 8th gate?!) while your own basicly says: with chakra haki you can do elemental attacks.
If anything the element stuff is completely unrelated to haki.

[vagabond87]

@Clessenur:

Actually what I was trying to address was your accusion of Sereques' post of being narutardish(because it slightly resembles 8th gate?!) while your own basicly says: with chakra haki you can do elemental attacks.
If anything the element stuff is completely unrelated to haki.

It was you that made too many connections with writing now about elemental attacks. Exaggerating that Is silly considering you add yourself about "elemental" attacks as I wrote only about attacks with added fire. Beside how you will explain fire on Sanji burning enemies while not burning himself without haki being used? It would be rather weird imo if haki is not an answer one way or another after it being introduced to have varianst of usage.

If you dont have any good argument beside bold statement then no point in replying and continuing discussion.

Are you Sareques lawyer? He can speak for himself if he felt need. His line sounded like reference to Gais 8th gate so I made a clear line at start of post as those mangas should have nothing to do with each other as I dont believe that Luffy would use any ability that includes his blood burning out or instead of steam - fire. Steam made sense as Luffys body heated up itself + his sweat was instanly evaporating.

Fire instead of steam in gear second - I dont buy it.

Make me buy it using arguments.

[Shadowgreed]

^^ Are you Sarques lawyer? (Look at my avatar)

[Sereques]

@vagabond87:

It was you that made too many connections with writing now about elemental attacks. Exaggerating that Is silly considering you add yourself about "elemental" attacks as I wrote only about attacks with added fire. Beside how you will explain fire on Sanji burning enemies while not burning himself without haki being used? It would be rather weird imo if haki is not an answer one way or another after it being introduced to have varianst of usage.

If you dont have any good argument beside bold statement then no point in replying and continuing discussion.

Are you Sareques lawyer? He can speak for himself if he felt need. His line sounded like reference to Gais 8th gate so I made a clear line at start of post as those mangas should have nothing to do with each other as I dont believe that Luffy would use any ability that includes his blood burning out or instead of steam - fire. Steam made sense as Luffys body heated up itself + his sweat was instanly evaporating.

Fire instead of steam in gear second - I dont buy it.

Make me buy it using arguments.

My observation is based on how G2 works. Luffy accelerates his heart, pumping blood at ridiculous rate and his body becomes hot to the point that steam comes out of it. This effect makes Luffy's attacks more powerful and fast. After TS, Luffy can create this effect on only the part he needed. If you want to think logically, that does not make sense but that is what Oda says it is. If something generates steam, that means there is a source of heat. If you increase that heat, then it's possible to have some sort of ignition. How is Luffy not burning himself? That is where Busoshoku comes into play, it protects him. The Haki is probably the reason he could exclude G2 to the part he needed thereby prolonging his combat longevity and life.

Sanji's Diable Jambe is not Haki based, he learned that technique before the entire crew had any clue on what Haki is. If Sanji can ignite his flesh and bones, why can't Luffy ignite his own body considering he's made out of rubber? Saying Arnament Haki can cause some sort of ignition seems worse to me. We've never seen anyone use it that way.

[vagabond87]

@Sereques:

My observation is based on how G2 works. Luffy accelerates his heart, pumping blood at ridiculous rate and his body becomes hot to the point that steam comes out of it. This effect makes Luffy's attacks more powerful and fast. After TS, Luffy can create this effect on only the part he needed. If you want to think logically, that does not make sense but that is what Oda says it is. If something generates steam, that means there is a source of heat. If you increase that heat, then it's possible to have some sort of ignition. How is Luffy not burning himself? That is where Busoshoku comes into play, it protects him. The Haki is probably the reason he could exclude G2 to the part he needed thereby prolonging his combat longevity and life.

Sanji's Diable Jambe is not Haki based, he learned that technique before the entire crew had any clue on what Haki is. If Sanji can ignite his flesh and bones, why can't Luffy ignite his own body considering he's made out of rubber? Saying Arnament Haki can cause some sort of ignition seems worse to me. We've never seen anyone use it that way.

Now we are in mid point so to say.

Its just my opinion- I do think that Luffy, Zoro and Sanji developed haki even before time skip. Why? One thing is comment of Blackbeard in chapter 544 about Luffys haki growing. He has to have some way of comparing, they didnt fought before so I guess presence/aura(maybe CoO haki users can do it on will) might be enough in some cases to measure haki of another person. He meet Luffy at Jaya and then at Impel Down he said Luffys haki has grown. He had to have it even on Jaya going by the logic.
Next thing is Zoro being able to cut steel after learning to hear breath of steel- for me it screems that its haki related/ control over haki related thing. To cut steel with steel there must be some imbuing it with something to be able to slice and dice it. Like cutting rock without effort and then not cutting leafs sounds like different usage of CoA. Sounds for me. Imo :p Thats how I see that.

Last one is Sanji with his Diable Jambe- it would be most logical explanation if Diable Jabe not burning his leg and burning Jabra to the bone would be explained with haki. Out of those two it was Jabra who had presumably stronger body/flesh. Sanji burned through his tekkai not broken it with force. So its something fishy haki explainable there as well for me.

As for ingintion subject

! its picture from chapter 520 where match is used by CoA haki user to ignite herself.

So it was suggested that haki users can cover themselves on fire, question is how then Sanji fires up now? My guess would be- only by movement, by speed and friction somehow or that burning is as spirit related as it was with Zoros asura. Like manifestation of users nature in some way.

I do believe that Diable Jambe was move with usage of haki and friction to fire its up. Now most of attacks that we seen from Sanji can be explained by stronger manifestation of his spirit so to say, stronger haki and bigger speed thus also friction- in fight. Hell Memories being ignited with memories from Okama island by Sanji somehow points to that. As Zoro gotten his Asura, Sanji has his fire- now even those hell memories for example. But all in fights this connects with haki usage as person surely needs protection from fire that burns flesh of enemies.

I dont think that steam can turn into fire as it would burn out Luffys body. Or fire covering Sanji would burn him.
With Red Hawk my bet would be at that CoA hardening so more durable and harder arm + presumably far bigger speed of attack = extreme friction while attack is made ending up in igniting attack.

Other character was also shown to set on fire on the spot so to say.
From OP wiki considering this attack from Daruma who ignited himself same like Sanji few chapters later with hell memories.

!

• Hi-Daruma Cutter (火ダルマカッター _Hi-Daruma Kattā?, literally meaning "Ablaze Cutter")__: Daruma engulfs himself in fire by unknown means and then jumps towards his opponents, trying to bite them.[6] This is calledFireball Cutter in the FUNimation sub**_**

[zxcv11791]

Zoro ignites his sword in blue flame too, dunno if thats really haki based though.

@Sereques:

My observation is based on how G2 works. Luffy accelerates his heart, pumping blood at ridiculous rate and his body becomes hot to the point that steam comes out of it. This effect makes Luffy's attacks more powerful and fast. After TS, Luffy can create this effect on only the part he needed. If you want to think logically, that does not make sense but that is what Oda says it is. If something generates steam, that means there is a source of heat. If you increase that heat, then it's possible to have some sort of ignition. How is Luffy not burning himself? That is where Busoshoku comes into play, it protects him. The Haki is probably the reason he could exclude G2 to the part he needed thereby prolonging his combat longevity and life.

Luffy's body isn't generating the steam though as a source of heat though, its just his sweat evaporating. Its a cooling function really. Your body sweats when you exercise and the evaporating sweat cools your body down. Luffy's g2 steam is just an extreme version of it. It wouldn't make sense for the evaporating sweat to suddenly ignite into fire.

[Shadowgreed]

@vagabond87:

Now we are in mid point so to say.

Its just my opinion- I do think that Luffy, Zoro and Sanji developed haki even before time skip. Why? One thing is comment of Blackbeard in chapter 544 about Luffys haki growing. He has to have some way of comparing, they didnt fought before so I guess presence/aura(maybe CoO haki users can do it on will) might be enough in some cases to measure haki of another person. He meet Luffy at Jaya and then at Impel Down he said Luffys haki has grown. He had to have it even on Jaya going by the logic.
Next thing is Zoro being able to cut steel after learning to hear breath of steel- for me it screems that its haki related/ control over haki related thing. To cut steel with steel there must be some imbuing it with something to be able to slice and dice it. Like cutting rock without effort and then not cutting leafs sounds like different usage of CoA. Sounds for me. Imo :p Thats how I see that.

Last one is Sanji with his Diable Jambe- it would be most logical explanation if Diable Jabe not burning his leg and burning Jabra to the bone would be explained with haki. Out of those two it was Jabra who had presumably stronger body/flesh. Sanji burned through his tekkai not broken it with force. So its something fishy haki explainable there as well for me.

As for ingintion subject

! [qimg]http://i12.mangareader.net/one-piece/520/one-piece-65109.jpg[/qimg] its picture from chapter 520 where match is used by CoA haki user to ignite herself.

So it was suggested that haki users can cover themselves on fire, question is how then Sanji fires up now? My guess would be- only by movement, by speed and friction somehow or that burning is as spirit related as it was with Zoros asura. Like manifestation of users nature in some way.

I do believe that Diable Jambe was move with usage of haki and friction to fire its up. Now most of attacks that we seen from Sanji can be explained by stronger manifestation of his spirit so to say, stronger haki and bigger speed thus also friction- in fight. Hell Memories being ignited with memories from Okama island by Sanji somehow points to that. As Zoro gotten his Asura, Sanji has his fire- now even those hell memories for example. But all in fights this connects with haki usage as person surely needs protection from fire that burns flesh of enemies.

I dont think that steam can turn into fire as it would burn out Luffys body. Or fire covering Sanji would burn him.
With Red Hawk my bet would be at that CoA hardening so more durable and harder arm + presumably far bigger speed of attack = extreme friction while attack is made ending up in igniting attack.

Other character was also shown to set on fire on the spot so to say.
From OP wiki considering this attack from Daruma who ignited himself same like Sanji few chapters later with hell memories.

! [qimg]http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120924104107/onepiece/images/6/6c/FireballCutter565.png[/qimg]

• Hi-Daruma Cutter (火ダルマカッター _Hi-Daruma Kattā?, literally meaning "Ablaze Cutter")__: Daruma engulfs himself in fire by unknown means and then jumps towards his opponents, trying to bite them.[6] This is calledFireball Cutter in the FUNimation sub**_**

Reprendelo Satanás!

[Razh]

If blood pumping = fire was the case, he'd probably be spamming fire attacks left and right. Not to mention he would have to coat his internal organs, blood vessels and nerves with Haki, so he doesn't die or turn into a cripple after using a fire attack. Also, what is the principle behind pumping blood fast enough to create fire only in the arm but not in the rest of the body?

[vagabond87]

@Shadowgreed:

Reprendelo Satanás!

Lol and whats up with you ?

[RamistaR]

Let's do a special logic lesson. First, we are in a Galilean shonen frame. Let's consider 3 assertion.

A: pumping blood
B: increasing velocity
C: epic flame

Sereques: A=>C
People(including me): (A=>B=>C)=>(A=>C) Yeah! We are friends of assertion!

One more problem solved by logic. An other possibility is Sereques being completely wrong…

[Sereques]

@vagabond87:

Now we are in mid point so to say.

Its just my opinion- I do think that Luffy, Zoro and Sanji developed haki even before time skip. Why? One thing is comment of Blackbeard in chapter 544 about Luffys haki growing. He has to have some way of comparing, they didnt fought before so I guess presence/aura(maybe CoO haki users can do it on will) might be enough in some cases to measure haki of another person. He meet Luffy at Jaya and then at Impel Down he said Luffys haki has grown. He had to have it even on Jaya going by the logic.
Next thing is Zoro being able to cut steel after learning to hear breath of steel- for me it screems that its haki related/ control over haki related thing. To cut steel with steel there must be some imbuing it with something to be able to slice and dice it. Like cutting rock without effort and then not cutting leafs sounds like different usage of CoA. Sounds for me. Imo :p Thats how I see that.

Last one is Sanji with his Diable Jambe- it would be most logical explanation if Diable Jabe not burning his leg and burning Jabra to the bone would be explained with haki. Out of those two it was Jabra who had presumably stronger body/flesh. Sanji burned through his tekkai not broken it with force. So its something fishy haki explainable there as well for me.

As for ingintion subject

! http://i12.mangareader.net/one-piece/520/one-piece-65109.jpg its picture from chapter 520 where match is used by CoA haki user to ignite herself.

So it was suggested that haki users can cover themselves on fire, question is how then Sanji fires up now? My guess would be- only by movement, by speed and friction somehow or that burning is as spirit related as it was with Zoros asura. Like manifestation of users nature in some way.

I do believe that Diable Jambe was move with usage of haki and friction to fire its up. Now most of attacks that we seen from Sanji can be explained by stronger manifestation of his spirit so to say, stronger haki and bigger speed thus also friction- in fight. Hell Memories being ignited with memories from Okama island by Sanji somehow points to that. As Zoro gotten his Asura, Sanji has his fire- now even those hell memories for example. But all in fights this connects with haki usage as person surely needs protection from fire that burns flesh of enemies.

I dont think that steam can turn into fire as it would burn out Luffys body. Or fire covering Sanji would burn him.
With Red Hawk my bet would be at that CoA hardening so more durable and harder arm + presumably far bigger speed of attack = extreme friction while attack is made ending up in igniting attack.

Other character was also shown to set on fire on the spot so to say.
From OP wiki considering this attack from Daruma who ignited himself same like Sanji few chapters later with hell memories.

! http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120924104107/onepiece/images/6/6c/FireballCutter565.png

• Hi-Daruma Cutter (火ダルマカッター _Hi-Daruma Kattā?, literally meaning "Ablaze Cutter")__: Daruma engulfs himself in fire by unknown means and then jumps towards his opponents, trying to bite them.[6] This is calledFireball Cutter in the FUNimation sub**_**

Haki is present is all Humans, that does not mean they can use it or will ever be able to use. At ID, Teach did make that comment because Luffy's will have become stronger and he had unconsciously fire Haoshoku Haki twice. At that point, non of them(SHs) could harness the power of Haki.

Phenomena's in OP can be explained by two things, Haki and/or DF. Haki is very clear, Haoshoku, power to overcome another person's will, Kenbunshoku, power to sense others, Busoshoku invincible armor and if the armor is strong enough, it can be use to attack. There is no point in Raleigh's explanation of Haki that states it can be use to generate elemental attacks. We have never seen anyone do it and probably never will. Luffy cannot be the odd one. If Haki is not responsible for the fire that came out during red hawk, then Gomu Gomu is the sole explanation.

The only person off to this rule is Sanji, which is why many critics have questioned Sanji attacks. If you read the MeraX2 thread, you will see those question been asked. If Sanji can ignite both legs at will, then what is the point of eating DF?

BTW, I don't like using anime as evidence. That show is filled with many stuff that didn't happen in the manga.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@zxcv11791:

Zoro ignites his sword in blue flame too, dunno if thats really haki based though.

Zoro didn't do any of such. The only time Zoro used a fire based attack was little garden after Usopp melt the wax with fire and Zoro attacked Mr5 with the fire burning on his blade.

[Shadowgreed]

@vagabond87:

Lol and whats up with you ?

I was supposed to address your post properly, but it was late and I felt like saying something completely unrelated to your post or is it

[vagabond87]

@Sereques:

BTW, I don't like using anime as evidence. That show is filled with many stuff that didn't happen in the manga.

Daruma did same thing in manga. Picture is from anime as this attack in OP wiki had only anime pic linked. Its same thing as in manga.