Demon King Piccolo arc was something else. Tenshinhn is still badass though. But DB is full of badass characters. Don't forget even OP characters would struggle. The DB verse is something else. The only ones that can match it imo are the Slayers, Tenchi, Bastard, Jojo, Bobobo (because that is just batshit) and obviously Sailor Moon verses.
Dragonball Discussion
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@Friend:
Demon King Piccolo arc was something else. Tenshinhn is still badass though. But DB is full of badass characters. Don't forget even OP characters would struggle. The DB verse is something else. The only ones that can match it imo are the Slayers, Tenchi, Bastard, Jojo, Bobobo (because that is just batshit) and obviously Sailor Moon verses.
Here is what I would die to see. Bobobo getting absorbed by Super Buu.
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Here is what I would die to see. Bobobo getting absorbed by Super Buu.
Would the Universe implode if Kenshiro got absorbed by Majin Buu?
Theoretically speaking that is…
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hey a chapter from when master roshi used to do shit is up on one manga newly scanlated
:wassat:
I'm glad I bought all of the Viz volumes of Dragon Ball years ago…
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Would the Universe implode if Kenshiro got absorbed by Majin Buu?
Theoretically speaking that is…
Theoretically speaking, the universe would indeed implode into the awesomeness that would result, then there would be a massive explosion of YOU WA SHOCK, epicness, and WAAATATATATATATATA that would essentially remake the universe ala the big bang, but with more epic. Every man born on the new Earth would be either Kenshiro, Chuck Norris, Kamina, or Akainu and would have a third testicle.
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Every man born on the new Earth would be either Kenshiro, Chuck Norris, Kamina, or Akainu and would have a third testicle.
Third testicle…?
16 Characters of Ackward
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Hey, all that extra testosterone has to come from somewhere.
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There's something funny in mentioning classiness when we're dealing with Launch and she's flipped a guy the bird and spat on his unconscious body.
Yeah, since it's well… Launch; it doesn't feel that out of place.
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Deftones music in the Cooler movie was bad.
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That would be too manly lol. Good thing Toriyama and Oda aren't Gods, the universe would be TOO awesome!
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Metal music in all the movies was bad. One worth mentioning was the Broli movie, where metal music is still playing while it cuts to Master Roshi doing his comic relief thing.
CHUGGA CHUGGA CHUNK CHUNK WEEEOOOOOOW FUNNY OLD MAYUUUUUHN!
Theoretically speaking, the universe would indeed implode into the awesomeness that would result, then there would be a massive explosion of YOU WA SHOCK, epicness, and WAAATATATATATATATA that would essentially remake the universe ala the big bang, but with more epic. Every man born on the new Earth would be either Kenshiro, Chuck Norris, Kamina, or Akainu and would have a third testicle.
I call Akainu!
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Dragonball is fuckin' doomed in the English speaking world. Sad, but true…
Even the fans fuck it up.
Seriously, all of the scanslations I've seen are shit. I remember reading one awhile back that had all of the pages flipped so that they read from left to right, and the image quality was just as bad. Sometimes, they can't go one speech bubble without adding unnecessary profanity. It reminds me of those old One Piece scans.
Dragonball is actually the first manga that made me decide to switch to Viz instead. Though, that's pretty much the lesser of the two evils.
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@Senshi:
Dragonball is actually the first manga that made me decide to switch to Viz instead. Though, that's pretty much the lesser of the two evils.
The flipped version was the only scanlation out there before this one started popping up. Also <untranslated>The vizbigs are really nice just for the quality. Pity they've slowed down the release pace. Coal turns to diamonds faster than they can release those things now…</untranslated>
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@Friend:
The DB verse is something else. The only ones that can match it…..Tenchi
Ummm How would the Tenchi-verse handle Super Saiyans? All they got are light hawk wings and transforming cabbits….sad but true. Besides it's a harem. Although I gotta admit it would be pretty interesting to see how a Juraian can fend off a Saiyan.....:ninja:
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Theoretically speaking, the universe would indeed implode into the awesomeness that would result, then there would be a massive explosion of YOU WA SHOCK, epicness, and WAAATATATATATATATA that would essentially remake the universe ala the big bang, but with more epic. Every man born on the new Earth would be either Kenshiro, Chuck Norris, Kamina, or Akainu and would have a third testicle.
This begs the question, who would the women be?
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Ummm How would the Tenchi-verse handle Super Saiyans? All they got are light hawk wings and transforming cabbits….sad but true. Besides it's a harem. Although I gotta admit it would be pretty interesting to see how a Juraian can fend off a Saiyan.....:ninja:
you mean the things that can freeze time and reverse black holes? Created with the power of the gods of the universe?
And I don't see what being a harem series has anything to do with it.
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@robbybedfart:
you mean the things that can freeze time and reverse black holes? Created with the power of the gods of the universe?
And I don't see what being a harem series has anything to do with it.
16 characters of Jedi pwnage
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@Mikey:
:wassat:
I'm glad I bought all of the Viz volumes of Dragon Ball years ago…
Even that version's a bit questionable, as Viz added in their own little bits. For example, when Goku's fighting Giran, the narrator's box mentions "Is this the end for Goku? Well how do you explain Dragon Ball Z?!"
Then you have things like this…
Puar just says "Awe… Awesome!!! Yamcha-sama, is that the 'Kamehame-Ha'...?!" in the original.
Eventually they started going back and censoring volumes, like giving Bulma a bra when Kuririn pulls her top down so Roshi can have a nosebleed splash on the Invisible Man.
@The:
Yeah, since it's well… Launch; it doesn't feel that out of place.
Yeah, but she doesn't flat out use swears to that degree. No one in Dragon Ball ever does.
@Senshi:
Seriously, all of the scanslations I've seen are shit. I remember reading one awhile back that had all of the pages flipped so that they read from left to right, and the image quality was just as bad. Sometimes, they can't go one speech bubble without adding unnecessary profanity. It reminds me of those old One Piece scans.
Dragonball is actually the first manga that made me decide to switch to Viz instead. Though, that's pretty much the lesser of the two evils.
The flipped version was the only scanlation out there before this one started popping up. Also<untranslated></untranslated>
Ah yes. That scanlation. The story behind that one is that that came around the time Viz had just started translating Volume 1 and Volume 17 of Dragon Ball (DB Vol. 1 and DBZ Vol. 1 as it was released here) in order to make the series available quicker. However, since this was at the time where dial-up was the norm and manga was usually flipped when translated, the visual quality had to be dropped to get a "clean" look while not compromising speed to upload and download and be ready to read without any problems.
However, two major problems sprouted. One being that the person doing the translations was doing a rush job and most likely had very little knowledge of the language he was translating from. Second problem being that a majority of the scans came from CHINESE versions of the manga. If you look at some of the Boo saga chapters, you'll notice that some of the SFX are written in Chinese. Making the translation shift from Japanese - English to Chinese - English, which meant several chapters were left with "<untranslatable>" in word bubbles.</untranslatable>
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i wish DB(?) and DBZ hadn't made roshi fodder too
he was so awesome wish he could have got stronger and fought more
i still would also have loved to see piccolo get as strong as vegeta and have had an epic fight with him, those two are so cool
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Hmm I might have been reading too many battledomes when I suggested Tenchi, but I was thinking of the light hawk wings. I can't believe I forgot to put Saint Seiya on my list of Dragonball level power. Light speed and further is commonplace for Gold Saints, correct me if I am wrong.
To be fair Choperman Roshi may have became fodder in DB but he could still crush a lot of non-cosmic shounen characters! Granted he would struggle against a few One Piece characters, and some from other universes too.
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@robbybedfart:
you mean the things that can freeze time and reverse black holes? Created with the power of the gods of the universe?
And I don't see what being a harem series has anything to do with it.
It can also depend on which Series of Tenchi he was talking about, I assumed he meant Universe and not the OVA series which I can see why Tenchi,Ryoko,Tokimi and Z might stand a chance against the likes of Saiyan(s) who have the power to destroy an entire planet. :getlost:
I was pointing out that the Tenchi series is just mainly a harem and there's not a lot of fighting going on in Tenchi as we had about three main battles in the OVA series:
Tenchi Vs. Ryoko (not rly a serious battle, more of an introduction in power a la Shanks Vs. Whitebeard)
Tenchi Vs. Kagato
Tenchi Vs. ZThose are the ones that really stand out as It's been awhile since I last saw the old OVA series. I don't see how a Juraian ship and light hawk wings can stop a Kamehameha or a barrage of Ki blasts. Or how Z (Correct me if I'm wrong) can stop time/black holes with his Light hawk wings before Goku can uber pwn Z.
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Saiyajins can destroy more than just planet, don't forget that! However we also can't forget that sheer power isn't everything, it can come down to individual powers too. Watching Hero A defeat a load of zombies/spirits/vampires/aliens or whatever is incredibly fun if it is done right.
Who can honestly say the Devil Beam in volume 9 of Dragonball for example wasn't cool? The majority of shounen characters at least would fall to it. Most shounen heroes would surive it but that's in their nature. I don't think heroes like Naruto or Ichigo would fall just because they have evil inside them. Goku himself had the oozaru force and he got hit, he still had a pure heart.
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@Friend:
Saiyajins can destroy more than just planet, don't forget that! However we also can't forget that sheer power isn't everything, it can come down to individual powers too. Watching Hero A defeat a load of zombies/spirits/vampires/aliens or whatever is incredibly fun if it is done right.
Who can honestly say the Devil Beam in volume 9 of Dragonball for example wasn't cool? The majority of shounen characters at least would fall to it. Most shounen heroes would surive it but that's in their nature. I don't think heroes like Naruto or Ichigo would fall just because they have evil inside them. Goku himself had the oozaru force and he got hit, he still had a pure heart.
HOLY CRAP! How Could I forget the Devil Beam!!!! Faceplams myself That was an epic move right there, I loved that What If story in BT3 where Devilman defeats Freeza with his Devil beam… Man Original DB characters always get the shaft...Like Launch and Roshi..
We can't also forget that the DBZ movies were filler along with Broly, since he had the power to destroy an entire galaxy, but in Cannon terms Roshi had the power to destroy an entire moon. I didn't mention the destorying galaxies part since I didn't want to include filler material into the debate as well since that could cause confusion…
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I never forget the devil beam, but that's because that volume is in my 10 greatest manga volumes read easily. Yeah I remember that in BT3, I would have got the game purely for that if I wasn't getting the game anyway, which I was. Beams are always cool, as approved by Luffy and Chopper!
Even if we only took early Dragonball (the 1st 16 vlumes- Goku's childhood) into account and if we ignored Roshi blowing up the moon, we still have Piccolo blowing up a mountain at around the 300s in power levels. If you increase that power as characters go higher in power levels you see what I mean. It's like in Yu Yu Hakusho, A rank demos are very strong but a whole load of them can't match an S class demon.
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A quick reminder: Power levels (or battle powers, as they're translated) have absolutely zero meaning behind them. They're merely estimated numbers of one's Ki that is presently detected. They stopped meaning anything after Freeza's henchmen read Trunks at 5, which gives a good idea that they're relatively useless at figuring out when someone's suppressing their Ki.
FUNi's dub seemed to like mixing up "power level" with Ki and battle power.
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@Friend:
I never forget the devil beam, but that's because that volume is in my 10 greatest manga volumes read easily. Yeah I remember that in BT3, I would have got the game purely for that if I wasn't getting the game anyway, which I was. Beams are always cool, as approved by Luffy and Chopper!
Even if we only took early Dragonball (the 1st 16 vlumes- Goku's childhood) into account and if we ignored Roshi blowing up the moon, we still have Piccolo blowing up a mountain at around the 300s in power levels. If you increase that power as characters go higher in power levels you see what I mean. It's like in Yu Yu Hakusho, A rank demos are very strong but a whole load of them can't match an S class demon.
Yet Devilman can kill everyone in the dragonball world aside from the Son family.
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That's assuming he doesn't get blown up first.
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Yet Devilman can kill everyone in the dragonball world aside from the Son family.
That's why that What-If story mode in BT3 was so awesome…
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Well power levels are meaningful, it USUALLY goes along the lines of greater power means greater ownage. Naturally there are exceptions. If you cannot see or feel the chi of an opponent you can be beaten.
Likewise specific powers could work for example a sword thaty could cut through anything like Kuwabara's sword in Yu Yu Hakusho. Other haxes could be exceptions too such as any illusion. Powerful though they are, Saiyajin aren't particularly strong against magic.
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@Friend:
Well power levels are meaningful, it USUALLY goes along the lines of greater power means greater ownage. Naturally there are exceptions. If you cannot see or feel the chi of an opponent you can be beaten.
Likewise specific powers could work for example a sword thaty could cut through anything like Kuwabara's sword in Yu Yu Hakusho. Other haxes could be exceptions too such as any illusion. Powerful though they are, Saiyajin aren't particularly strong against magic.
power levels are just one aspect of everything. proven by ultra trunks vs. cell.
the devil beam may be able to kill all it hits except say goku or luffy. kind of comparing to hancocks beam. but if it can't hit the person it is pointless. and in dragonball for all we know it can't touch the upper teir guys.
think the mr. hercule vs cell fight. he could get even past his just radiating aura of ki that was emminating casually from his body. now if this devil beam is similar to a kamehameha or other beams and can be caught in a beam struggle, then if he shot it at Cell or Frieza or other super powerful guys it may not be able to get even past just the aura of ki that is surrounding the person.
or maybe it can, or maybe someone has a sword than can cut anything even space. or any hax move, weapon or anything you can think of. There is still the need to be able to use it, and hit the person. like brought up all the time if so and so used some move or power Goku dies. But how come this person can use his power before goku can attack. Did he get a 20 on his initiative roll. or how come in these gods basicallyf ighting each other whoever you are trying to prove would win ALWAYS manages to attack first.
And other factors like trunks vs. cell. Speed is insanely important. Doesn't matter if all you have to do is have one cell on your body touch your opponent and he automatically dies if you can't do that.
Not sure why this is even needing to be discussed, have you guys never played a game before. There are always things you level up like speed, str, dodging/dext, wisdom, and so on. And then the other factors past this like defense or other resistances whether mental or elemental. then last but not least is even down ot fighting skill and experience. Having infinity strength doesn't mean you win.
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@Friend:
If you cannot see or feel the chi of an opponent you can be beaten.
This isn't always the case. In Freeza's case, Goku realized he could not sense Ki and attempted to use this to his advantage a few times. Kuririn and Piccolo did the same thing when they both surprise attacked Freeza.
Unfortunately, neither of these went well and only offered as mere distractions and simply bought more time for everyone.
Though as I had mentioned with the whole battle power readings being useless, they were relatively useless as they wound up clouding the judgement of other enemies, making them believe they were stronger just because their Scouters couldn't detect someone suppressing their Ki. Once Freeza and his henchmen were killed, those readings stopped meaning anything. Also contrary to what some fans want to believe, they also had zero place in the original Dragon Ball story. So anything prior to Raditz's reading of Piccolo is just fan speculation.
As I also mentioned before, FUNi confused the concepts of "power levels" with levels of strength, power and Ki. Which unfortunately led people to believe that anything beyond Trunks' 5 reading was real. Also caused confusion with the Artificial Humans, as they actually don't have any Ki, as opposed to a "power level."
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i wish DB(?) and DBZ hadn't made roshi fodder too
he was so awesome wish he could have got stronger and fought more
i still would also have loved to see piccolo get as strong as vegeta and have had an epic fight with him, those two are so cool
Roshi's last major importance was epic though: his failed attempt of stopping Piccolo. Heck, if DB ended with the Piccolo/Ma Jr. stuff, he'd get more respect than he usually has.
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think the mr. hercule vs cell fight. he could get even past his just radiating aura of ki that was emminating casually from his body.
But Cell wasn't radiating any Ki at all. He stood there casually as Mr. Satan threw his attacks and got smacked aside. There wasn't any aura of Ki to be seen.
Not sure why this is even needing to be discussed, have you guys never played a game before. There are always things you level up like speed, str, dodging/dext, wisdom, and so on. And then the other factors past this like defense or other resistances whether mental or elemental. then last but not least is even down ot fighting skill and experience. Having infinity strength doesn't mean you win.
In Dragon Ball's case, only four things have ever been needed to win.
- Taiyoken
- Speed
- Strength
- Deus Ex Plot Devices
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This isn't always the case. In Freeza's case, Goku realized he could not sense Ki and attempted to use this to his advantage a few times. Kuririn and Piccolo did the same thing when they both surprise attacked Freeza.
Unfortunately, neither of these went well and only offered as mere distractions and simply bought more time for everyone.
Though as I had mentioned with the whole battle power readings being useless, they were relatively useless as they wound up clouding the judgement of other enemies, making them believe they were stronger just because their Scouters couldn't detect someone suppressing their Ki. Once Freeza and his henchmen were killed, those readings stopped meaning anything. Also contrary to what some fans want to believe, they also had zero place in the original Dragon Ball story. So anything prior to Raditz's reading of Piccolo is just fan speculation.
The Daizenshû does list battle powers for the Dragon Ball era, actually. Then there are battle powers listed in V-JUMP and the like.
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That's what I was saying Hinscher, hence it would depend on the power being used. If you can stop time then speed of the opponent is irrelevant. Of course there was a time stopper in DB and he was absolutely shite, Gurd.
You are right Tsukento, there were no power levels in early DB. Although if it were officially accepted by Toriyama that's a given. Which is why thankfully GT could never be considered canon because Toriyama distanced himself from it, with the exception of a few character designs thrown in.
BTW do you think the androids have power levels? They came from base human forms and were still genetic beings in part, as far as I recall the Dragonball wish wasn't to turn them into humans but remove the bombs from their (or 18's I can't recall offhand) bodies.
@Tokoro: The Piccolo Daimyo arc is one of my faves, Roshi making his last stand using the Mafuba was amazing. I always rememember that, but then again I always talk about the 42 volume series Dragonball, the one Kishimoto and Oda undoubtedly read from the beginning. I don't call it DBZ unless I'm referring specifically to the anime, since the Japanese didn't either.
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@Friend:
@Tokoro: The Piccolo Daimyo arc is one of my faves, Roshi making his last stand using the Mafuba was amazing. I always rememember that, but then again I always talk about the 42 volume series Dragonball, the one Kishimoto and Oda undoubtedly read from the beginning. I don't call it DBZ unless I'm referring specifically to the anime, since the Japanese didn't either.
I'm more a Red Ribbon arc fan myself, seeing it as the perfect blend of the martial arts that was starting to come into focus with more of the fun and adventure of the early story. The Piccolo arc is epic and important but considering I had seen DBZ by that point, it just feels eclipsed by a lot of what happened in the Vegeta arc. Such a shame, though, cause it is a major turning point in the series and lead to the growing intensity of stuff like the Vegeta and Frieza arcs.
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The RR arc was epically great, I remember when the anime came out in Britain when I used to live with my mother and eat eggs and soldiers while watching it. Ah good times indeed! I never got to see the Piccolo arc of the anime, but it is on my to watch list, once I've got through DB Kai, also a bit more Claymore, Yakitate Japan, Excel saga and Read or Die.
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In Dragon Ball's case, only four things have ever been needed to win.
- Taiyoken
- Speed
- Strength
- Deus Ex Plot Devices
what taiyoken? and um can you please tell me why Goku fought Cell first in the Cell tournament. (hint hint, letting gohan know how cell fights)
and you can't just say those four. How about the hundreds of times someone attacks with punching/kicking or even ki blasts and the opponent just stands there and takes it. That is defense.
and experience is always a factor in all fights. even if someone is faster than you and stronger than you, that doesn' tmean they will win. If you are experience or even know how they fight you can predict where their next punch will be, where they have openings and when and so on. By having the ability to predict or guess what they will do next either from just battle experience knowledge, or that particular persons tendencies you can close the gap on speed, by doing something based on what they ARE going to do and not just reacting to what they are doing.
what duex ex plot devices in dragonball? You can't call going ssj or ssj2 or stuff that. I mean those were HUGELY forshadowed. Hell all that was said by vegeta was constantly ssj this ssj that. And in cell arc it was hugely played that gohan was hiding something and had some huge hidden power, which also was shown pop up constantly since raditz showed up. the heroes were all there during the fights, it wasn't like a surprise chapter that all of a sudden Kuma pops in and puma's them all away. we knew if goku was coming and how soon. only cheap thing in the series was the dragonballs. but they were shown their cheapness and described in chapter one. they make wishes, we knew that, so any wish can't be omg surprise.
@Friend:That's what I was saying Hinscher, hence it would depend on the power being used. If you can stop time then speed of the opponent is irrelevant. Of course there was a time stopper in DB and he was absolutely shite, Gurd.
ok so if you can stop time. do you watch heroes? peter had the power to stop time, yet someone still shot him, because he didnt' stop time fast enough. Your again assuming this stop time person gets to attack first. why? why doesn't goku get to attack first. whats stopping goku from punching his head off before he stops time.
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About the Deus ex machina thing: there's not a great deal of that in Dragonball, unless you are actually talking about the Dragonballs and even then there would be a flaw. Deus ex machina means a God in the machine, so a God who resides in the machinery of the universe and as such can manipulate it to its will. It can bring people back to life on a whim, and is basically a God of Hax.
As such it is cheap because it takes away the value of doing things for oneself and bringing about one's own miracles. However a key point to make about the dragonballs, they cannot make you more powerful in terms of raw power, or at least weren't used like that in the series. They could make you immortal, but that wouldn't stop you being beaten shitless by someone stronger.
If Goku had became immortal by the dragonballs in say the Red Ribbon arc, that wouldn't stop Frieza from later on being able to totally hurt him in a fight. The dragonballs had limits on them anyway, so they weren't that powerful. They couldn't defeat your enemies for you unless the enemy was weaker than Kami.
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@Yuugi's:
The Daizenshû does list battle powers for the Dragon Ball era, actually. Then there are battle powers listed in V-JUMP and the like.
The Daizenshuu aren't exactly all by Toriyama and tend to have quite a bit of misinformation at times. One example is that they list Akkuman as a Monster-type Earthling in Daizenshuu Vol. 4, while Vol. 7 lists him being from Hell.
Then you have the same volume of the latter claiming Tenshinhan is an alien, despite Toriyama never having stated or implied such a thing.
what taiyoken?
Solar Flare, whatever. It's the attack that Tenshinhan originally used, which Goku, Kuririn and Cell stole that blinds everyone they face.
and um can you please tell me why Goku fought Cell first in the Cell tournament. (hint hint, letting gohan know how cell fights)
He didn't. Mr. Satan first stepped in, then after Cell swat him away, Goku stepped up to fight him.
and you can't just say those four. How about the hundreds of times someone attacks with punching/kicking or even ki blasts and the opponent just stands there and takes it. That is defense.
Strength is also a form of defense. It doesn't just mean attacking power.
and experience is always a factor in all fights.
Goku has been in far less fights than Vegeta, especially to the degree of fights Vegeta's been in, yet he outlasted Vegeta against Freeza. So experience isn't always a factor. Especially when Gohan fought far less times than anyone else and still beat Cell.
@Friend:
BTW do you think the androids have power levels? They came from base human forms and were still genetic beings in part, as far as I recall the Dragonball wish wasn't to turn them into humans but remove the bombs from their (or 18's I can't recall offhand) bodies.
Just to clear it up, #17 and #18 were Cyborgs. The only things about them that Dr. Gero did was plant a bomb within their bodies and their blood carries nanomachines that supply them with infinite energy. #16 was a full on Android. #19 I'm sure was an Android, though I can't be too sure if Dr. Gero himself became a Cyborg or Android. Though I assume Toriyama originally intended for he and #19 to be Cyborgs since Trunks originally uses the word "Cyborgs", rather than "Jinzoningen" (Artificial Humans), when Goku asks if they're aliens.
But I digress. Because none of the Z Warriors could sense their Ki because the Artificial Humans didn't have any to sense, I would imagine they don't have any battle powers that could be read. Though #16 being able to tell Piccolo is stronger than #17 might suggest otherwise, unless he has a type of scanner that Dr. Gero built that's different from the Scouters by the Saiyans.
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@Friend:
About the Deus ex machina thing: there's not a great deal of that in Dragonball, unless you are actually talking about the Dragonballs and even then there would be a flaw. Deus ex machina means a God in the machine, so a God who resides in the machinery of the universe and as such can manipulate it to its will. It can bring people back to life on a whim, and is basically a God of Hax.
That's not what the term means, and Dragonball is filled with it.
And this fine, who gives a fuck about intricate complex plots when discussing Dragonball. -
A dues ex machina is an ending that comes out of nowhere with no foreshadowing to solve a problem that the characters couldn't otherwise have dealt with, and is usually a symptom of bad writing.
But the dragonballs were built into the very premise of the series, from the first chapter, as the title of the series. It was part and partial that something could be gained, undone or fixed with a wish. But that wish had to be EARNED with an adventure and a quest.
And later it made light of death anyway with an otherworld adventures and ghosts being able to visit for a day the whole time. Death was never permanent or consequential in Dragonball, the series was ALWAYS just about the adventure.
Later on the dragonballs just because death-undoing devices, but as late as the Frieza saga they were still very specific plot devices. They didn't come from nowhere, they had a definitive origin, they had limits, and they had to be earned.
By the Buu saga where they could make basically as many wishes in one go as they wanted, (oh, Dende conveniantley upgraded the dragon so it could make two wishes) with two sets of dragonballs gathered on different worlds, and it was capable of restoring and entire planet and several billion lives… that was pushing it in terms of uber convenience.
But still not, technically, a dues ex machina.
Neither was Gohan untapping hidden potential against Cell a dues ex machina, since that was foreshadowed since Raditz and developed at length as a concept.
On the other hand, Gohan travelling to another world and pulling out a magic sword? Fusion dance? More than one Buu existing at the same time? A wish being used to restore Goku's energy at the end? the sheer existence of Senzu beans and Dende the healing namek? There starts to be a line, somewhere. And dragonball hopped it constantly and gleefully.
But its okay, because it was a lighthearted fun action adventure romp.
It wasn't loophole-hunting trying to pretend its deep, Deathnote.
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You are right Robby but it still can refer to a literal God in a machine, or something Godly with so much power that it can change the way things should be. This notoriously happens in a poorly ended Stephen king book, where the bad guy actually wins and then a hand of some God drops down and stops the evil guy. Something like that anyway I don't like King much so I didn't memorise the details.
Anyway you rightly say, it technically isn't a deus ex machina. Now that I think about it there is one particular incident that comes close, but a benevolent God like the ones in Dragonball (who may be goofy, perverted and/retarded but essentially have kind hearts) would allow external power (Shenron) to power up the hero, in the grounds that the hero still fought a hard battle and the whole universe was at stake.
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@Friend:
You are right Robby but it still can refer to a literal God in a machine, or something Godly with so much power that it can change the way things should be. This notoriously happens in a poorly ended Stephen king book, where the bad guy actually wins and then a hand of some God drops down and stops the evil guy. Something like that anyway I don't like King much so I didn't memorise the details.
Anyway you rightly say, it technically isn't a deus ex machina. Now that I think about it there is one particular incident that comes close, but a benevolent God like the ones in Dragonball (who may be goofy, perverted and/retarded but essentially have kind hearts) would allow external power (Shenron) to power up the hero, in the grounds that the hero still fought a hard battle and the whole universe was at stake.
I think knowing what we know now what we do about Stephen King's Universe… little is REALLY left to chance. We're just led to believe it is :D
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Haha role a dice d20 XD So we now know what King Spent his childhood doing lol. Horror version of D and D haha.
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@robbybedfart:
A dues ex machina is an ending that comes out of nowhere with no foreshadowing to solve a problem that the characters couldn't otherwise have dealt with, and is usually a symptom of bad writing.
But the dragonballs were built into the very premise of the series, from the first chapter, as the title of the series. It was part and partial that something could be gained, undone or fixed with a wish. But that wish had to be EARNED with an adventure and a quest.
And later it made light of death anyway with an otherworld adventures and ghosts being able to visit for a day the whole time. Death was never permanent or consequential in Dragonball, the series was ALWAYS just about the adventure.
Later on the dragonballs just because death-undoing devices, but as late as the Frieza saga they were still very specific plot devices. They didn't come from nowhere, they had a definitive origin, they had limits, and they had to be earned.
By the Buu saga where they could make basically as many wishes in one go as they wanted, (oh, Dende conveniantley upgraded the dragon so it could make two wishes) with two sets of dragonballs gathered on different worlds, and it was capable of restoring and entire planet and several billion lives… that was pushing it in terms of uber convenience.
But still not, technically, a dues ex machina.
Neither was Gohan untapping hidden potential against Cell a dues ex machina, since that was foreshadowed since Raditz and developed at length as a concept.
On the other hand, Gohan travelling to another world and pulling out a magic sword? Fusion dance? More than one Buu existing at the same time? A wish being used to restore Goku's energy at the end? the sheer existence of Senzu beans and Dende the healing namek? There starts to be a line, somewhere. And dragonball hopped it constantly and gleefully.
But its okay, because it was a lighthearted fun action adventure romp.
It wasn't loophole-hunting trying to pretend its deep, Deathnote.
I was going to post that the earings or fusion dance and possibly the sword upgrade for gohan were duex ex machina's. But then i don't really consider something a duex ex machina if it doesn't end up being something that wins the day out. I mean all those things ended up them not winning so its just story telling for it. Now if those events were something that happened with no forshadowing AND were the cause of victory then yea i can see it. But otherwise it is no different than nightmare luffy, it was just something that happened in the arc.
the goku getting his energy back isn't either. we know how many dragonballs tehre are, and how many wishes each has left. We just didn't think of that wish. I wouldn't say its cheap or duex ex. ALl it did was just give goku to full health.
Senzu beans have been around basically as long as the dragonballs. We just didn't realize how cheap they were until much later.
THe only thing I would say is super gay and cheap in dragonball would (besides teh revive everyone, so deaths never matter) would be the power up big time when near death recover for a saiyan. How gay is that. You train for years under insane circumstances, and yet get the same boost by just almost dying. wtf.
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Now that I think about it the Goku getting his energy back was a creative use of the dbs, but we can't forget that it is fair since Buu had hax regen ability, there are several occasions without that he would have died. Fusion counters absorbtion and so on. Trump cards are an undying tradition in shounen anyway, it's a core part of battle strategy.
People do get too reliant on the dragonballs to transcend death, but at least it isn't retcon, since the dbs are at the core of the story all along. It's not like the recent black lantern event where all the death and resurection fuck ups were "conveniently" down to a big bad when we can see this is obviously DC trying to heal something which isn't healable.