I didn't get owned at all. Arguing that willpower alone decides who will be something instead of viewing it as part of the whole package is foolish. Talent? Naw no such thing as that. Nami isn't a brilliant navigator through a combination of raw talent/potential shaped through hardwork, she was just a regular person who just tried hard. Luffy isn't gifted with resourcefulness, he just tries hard till something works. As I said OP is about willpower and skill/talent.
The War With Whitebeard
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Do you actually expect people to take you seriously with responses like this? Answer a question for once.
She's absolutely right about this, everyone should be familiar with the Blackbeard Impel Down theory by now.
The thing is it's that very same ambition that got him that strong in the first place.
professorlaytonpointing.jpg
And finally you show that you have no knowledge of what potential means. Potential is all about what someone is capable of doing so anything done by anyone is due to them having the potential to do so.
Determinism is laughable enough in real life let alone in a simplistic comic book about hard work and ambition.
Secondly you talk about me with your Gohan example but you'er elevating willpower higher than even what the manga does
Considering this comic book has turned ambition into a force like power that can crack floorboards and knock people out I don't think there's such a thing as elevating willpower too much.
Or did you miss the gist of Haki?
Of course you did.
Willpower in this manga allows someone to tap into power that they already have,
Not at any point is this suggested. There is no latent power in One Piece. There is latent ambition maybe, then guys like Usopp who want to have that ambition.
I mean what the fuck do you think the point of Usopp is.
it isn't giving anyone power that wasn't already within them to begin with.
See, yes, you literally think power is some magic chi bullshit.
Furthermore your way of explaining willpower would basically turn every situation into who wants it more.
Welcome to One Piece lol.
So then cases such as when the SH are overpowered by an opponent, due to a combination of skill/talent of the opponent being too much them would turn into: The SH didn't want it enough.
Your interpreting it too rigidly. Like you can't grasp it being an abstract philosophical sort of thing. Too used to the usual shonen power crap. This is one of the coolest things about One Piece and here you are as oblivious as can be. Pathetic.
You're the idiot at Inspirational Speaker seminars who asks "WHAT IF I FAIL THOUGH".
Funny thing is that you contradict yourself by pointing out Ace being older than Luffy, but if that were the only reason then shouldn't Luffy's stronger will cancelled it out?
When did I ever say willpower was about some sort of measurable level of comparitive power.
It's what will decide the top dogs and what will make it clear whose going to be the best. It's why Luffy will win in the end.
You bring up up the bandits to counter the point I made about Luffy being born with higher than average strength
By "point" do you mean "complete bullshit i made up".
yet you fail to mention that fear likely played a role in Luffy being helpless too. He never really even seemed to put up much of a fight.
He was swearing at them while under the guy's foot, and a mini flashback showed him yelling at them.
Willpower can coexist with fear. See basically any Usopp victory ever.
And about Ace: Hindsight is 20/20 he wouldn't know how dumb it was to fight WB
ahahahahaha, yeah sure lol, truly taking on the strongest man in the world is something that's all hindsight.
This is what cognitive dissonance looks like.
and BB (or atleast be able to convince himself that his crews warnings about BB were to be heeded) till he tried.
Everyone and their mother was shown being careful about Blackbeard, Whitebeard and Shanks, two experts.
Ace wasn't thinking, he was being an emotional moron.
He fucked up, twice, in the same sort of scenarios.He has failed at being a pirate, unless fate decided to rescue him I suppose.
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@Karate:
Determinism is laughable enough in real life let alone in a simplistic comic book about hard work and ambition.
Considering this comic book has turned ambition into a force like power that can crack floorboards and knock people out I don't think there's such a thing as elevating willpower too much.
Or did you miss the gist of Haki?
Of course you did.
Not at any point is this suggested. There is no latent power in One Piece. There is latent ambition maybe, then guys like Usopp who want to have that ambition.
I mean what the fuck do you think the point of Usopp is.
See, yes, you literally think power is some magic chi bullshit.
Your interpreting it too rigidly. Like you can't grasp it being an abstract philosophical sort of thing. Too used to the usual shonen power crap. This is one of the coolest things about One Piece and here you are as oblivious as can be. Pathetic.
I understand haki as an eastern concept and the discussion has been beaten to death:
http://apforums.net/showthread.php?t=22337&page=36
Difference between you and I is that I don't foolishly think that willpower is all there is in One Piece and ignore clear examples in which pure talent is shown such as Nami's near sixth sense when it comes to weather or Luffy's resourcefulness that allows him make observations in combat and adjust, stuff that can't be taught or just gained through willpower alone. I mean seriously if everything is just willpower then what of Vega Punk? Will he be a genius just through willpower instead of just being gifted AND having the will to learn?
See I tend to think that Luffy will be PK due to willpower, skill/talent, the help of his crewmates and a little luck.
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Nami didn't displayed it back then when she was a little kid. Is it that hard to think that she became that good over the years because of her dream and hard work?
The serie is all about drive. Usoppsell is right. Ace has more talent than luffy but luffy has so much more ambition to become the next PK than Ace. Luffy would have never joined WB to begin with.
Talent can bring you far (ace) but isn't enough. The will to make your dream come true is the dominant aspect in this manga and was made clear since the start with luffy and cobys story. -
Nami didn't displayed it back then when she was a little kid. Is it that hard to think that she became that good over the years because of her dream and hard work?
The serie is all about drive. Usoppsell is right. Ace has more talent than luffy but luffy has so much more ambition to become the next PK than Ace. Luffy would have never joined WB to begin with.
Talent can bring you far (ace) but isn't enough. The will to make your dream come true is the dominant aspect in this manga and was made clear since the start with luffy and cobys story.I never said that talent is everything, I said that OP uses willpower AND talent/skill, hell even some luck. And Nami did show a talent for cartography as a kid she even impressed Arlong with it. Also she has a talent at sensing weather. Hell and even Luffy's haoshoku is described as haki of the chosen ones so unless anyone (given the right circumstances) can develop haoshoku through hardwork and willpower then there is definitely an element of natural talent within OP.
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Hell and even Luffy's haoshoku is described as haki of the chosen ones so unless anyone can develop haoshoku through hardwork and willpower then there is definitely an element of natural talent within OP.
Do you even know what Haki translates to? It's ambition/willpower. All "hakousho" means is Luffy's willpower is the color of a king's, that's what it translates to. It means his willpower is huge. And no one described Luffy as a "chosen one", just that his willpower is one in a million's. You don't get this series do you? I mean you seriously thought Luffy's punches were as strong as a pistol when he was an untrained 7 year old lol.
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I understand haki as an eastern concept and the discussion has been beaten to death:
Translate Haki for me lol.
Go on.Difference between you and I is that I don't foolishly think that willpower is all there is in One Piece and ignore clear examples in which pure talent is shown such as Nami's near sixth sense when it comes to weather
What the fuck do you think ability is?
It's earned through working on it. And the primary thing that creates excellent work, work that rewards, and work that gets results, is willpower.This is how real life works. This is how you get jobs. This is how you hone craft. This is how you woo people. This is how the world turns on its axis.
Even people predisposed to something are worthless without the confidence and ambition to put it to use.
You should be familiar with the concept just through living everyday, let alone grasping Oda's themes.
or Luffy's resourcefulness that allows him make observations in combat and adjust, stuff that can't be taught or just gained through willpower alone.
Stuff that without willpower he wouldn't be calm and focused enough to do.
Stuff that can sure as shit be learned, why the hell do you think it can't lol.I mean seriously if everything is just willpower then what of Vega Punk? Will he be a genius just through willpower instead of just being gifted AND having the will to learn?
Willpower is the lifeblood of everything, not the things themselves.
See I tend to think that Luffy will be PK due to willpower, skill/talent, the help of his crewmates and a little luck.
Skill and talent has never once ever been emphasized in One Piece.
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Do you even know what Haki translates to? It's ambition/willpower. All "hakousho" means is Luffy's willpower is the color of a king's, that's what it translates to. It means his willpower is huge. And no one described Luffy as a "chosen one", just that his willpower is one in a million's. You don't get this series do you? I mean you seriously thought Luffy's punches were as strong as a pistol when he was an untrained 7 year old lol.
Do you even understand what I was bringing into question? I was saying that there is a nature of latent talent in OP. Because if Luffy isn't in some way just naturally special then why does he have haoshoku yet Zoro who is equally strong willed doesn't? See the issue? And yes haoshoku is mentioned for chosen ones:
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Do you even understand what I was bringing into question? I was saying that there is a nature of latent talent in OP.
You think haki is a latent talent that can't be adquired through willpower. That's wrong. Haki is willpower itself.
Because if Luffy isn't in some way just naturally special then why does he have haoshoku yet Zoro who is equally strong willed doesn't? See the issue?
This is flawed in so many ways. First we don't know if Zoro has that or not, we didn't know Luffy did until just recently. Second, you're trying to measure willpower in a balance and randomly claiming Zoro's amount is exactly equal to Luffy's. You're trying to make a point with pure speculation.
And yes haoshoku is mentioned for chosen ones:
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/one_piece/v53/c519/19.htmlLike I said, you didn't get that scene. The problem here is you read a crappy scanlation that didn't translate hakousho. If you read a decent translation, what was said was that Luffy had the ambition of a king/overlord, which basically means he has the willpower to stand out among a million others. What's special about him is his willpower, not his hakshsoshchsu chosen hockey power level.
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Sanigo, makin' good arguments, havin' a Namulith avatar, cool guy.
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@Karate:
Translate Haki for me lol.
Go on.What the fuck do you think ability is?
It's earned through working on it. And the primary thing that creates excellent work, work that rewards, and work that gets results, is willpower.This is how real life works. This is how you get jobs. This is how you hone craft. This is how you woo people. This is how the world turns on its axis.
Even people predisposed to something are worthless without the confidence and ambition to put it to use.
You should be familiar with the concept just through living everyday, let alone grasping Oda's themes.
Stuff that without willpower he wouldn't be calm and focused enough to do.
Stuff that can sure as shit be learned, why the hell do you think it can't lol.Willpower is the lifeblood of everything, not the things themselves.
Skill and talent has never once ever been emphasized in One Piece.
You still don't get what I'm saying, I'm not talking talent as in some lame ass Uchiha garbage. I'm talking about someone being naturally more inclined towards success in something that others may not be. Luffy is a talented brawler who honed this skill through hardwork and willpower. Zoro is a talented swordsman who has and is honing his swordsmanship to be the best. The issue is whether or not you view talent as a total myth.
When two people are both equally interested in the same thing, and both work as hard for it but one is notably better at the subject when is it an issue of the the superior person being better through hard work or when is it a matter of the superior person just being more talented? Can a person not have more potential for swordsmanship than another due to being naturally more coordinated with their hands assuming effort to train being equal?
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You still don't get what I'm saying, I'm not talking talent as in some lame ass Uchiha garbage.
Oh but you are.
I'm talking about someone being naturally more inclined towards success in something that others may not be.
Something never at any point shown by Luffy, Zoro, or basically anyone ever in the series.
Luffy is a talented brawler
Remember when Luffy was a talented brawler at age seven?
Me niether.
who honed this skill through hardwork and willpower.
Your just gonna counter this with the pistol thing again aren't you.
Zoro is a talented swordsman who
Yo when was Zoro ever said to have had inate talent in swordsmanship.
The issue is whether or not you view talent as a total myth.
Oh there's a myth around here alright.
When two people are both equally interested in the same thing, and both work as hard for it but one is notably better at the subject when is it an issue of the the superior person being better through hard work or when is it a matter of the superior person just being more talented?
Talent is predisposed comprehension.
Understanding of how to do something.
It is not some abstract "better".And it entirely worthless without ambition.
Can a person not have more potential for swordsmanship than another due to being naturally more coordinated with their hands assuming effort to train being equal?
lol, hand cordination, truly the hallmark of swordsmanship.
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@Karate:
Oh but you are.
Something never at any point shown by Luffy, Zoro, or basically anyone ever in the series.
Remember when Luffy was a talented brawler at age seven?
Me niether.
Your just gonna counter this with the pistol thing again aren't you.
Yo when was Zoro ever said to have had inate talent in swordsmanship.
Oh there's a myth around here alright.
Talent is predisposed comprehension.
Understanding of how to do something.
It is not some abstract "better".And it entirely worthless without ambition.
lol, hand cordination, truly the hallmark of swordsmanship.
So in OP talent doesn't exist, Sanji could be the swordsman that Zoro is if he tried and wanted it badly enough. Same for Luffy if he wanted to be a navigator like Nami. Haki is strictly willpower that for some reason decided to manifest it's self magically to KO a bull but is in no way a latent power, so Luffy was using haki all along (cuz you can't say that it's impossible to acquire haki through willpower because haki is willpower Dizzy). And Hancock and Luffy have haoshoku which is just a fancy name for "moar willpower". The only thing separating Cabaji from Luffy is willpower and training (gasp did he say only willpower?!).
And after all this it would still be impossible for Ace to develop the willpower to want to achieve the dream (or even be a contender) that WB had for him after WB's demise because…??? So I guess willpower is the only true latent power but wait... There is no latent power or talent in OP. I've learned much this day.
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Okay I`m going to cut loose from the whole willpower / luffy vs ace discussion for a moment and travel back to the actual war itself.
I notice a lot of people seem to think either the Whitebeard pirates or the World Goverment will come out of this war as the new force of power in the One Piece world or at least the New World, but I think they're missing out on a crucial point: other players on the field.
To better explain my theorie, lets take a look at the basics:
It has been stated that the World Goverment, in military sense the Marines and partly the Shichibukai, is at balance with the 4 Yonkou. At first, that gives us the impression that the military strength of the World Goverment and that of the 4 Yonkou combined is pretty much equal.
However looking at the recent match up of the Whitebeard pirates VS Marines + some Shichibukai, I believe that such an impression is wrong. I will not argue the fact that the WG and Yonkou are in a stalemate with one another, however not because of military strenght but because of the fact that the Yonkou do not cooperate. Seeing Whitebeard face of against the World Goverment, I think the World Goverment could beat 1 Yonkou, perhaps 2 at best. The reason they have not yet been defeated is that none of the Yonkou would care to have their whole crew defeated, just to weaken the World Goverment, since alone they wouldn`t have much of a winning chance.
Back to the war: with the World Goverment being able to defeat perhaps 1 or 2 Yonkou, they have made a crucial mistake facing off against Whitebeard. Wether the World Goverment wins only matters if they can win in big numbers. If it comes to a close victory, what's there to stop another Yonkou or for all that matters Dragon and his revolutionary's from storming in and making short work of a very weakened World Goverment? The power of the World Goverment came from the fact that none of their individual enemies would dare to attack them alone, but now that they provoked one to do so, they're in for taking quite some loses. Two big players striving for victory, but as the winner of the fight stands exhausted with his forces depleted, a third player will come along and snatch the victory away.
Same goes for Whitebeard pirates off course, however as they do not strive for world domination as openly as the World Goverment, it would be easier for them to avoid conflict with other Yonkou and I dont see them having any business with the Revolution Army so far.
Off course Oda is not bound by the logic of both sides losing when there's war, most stories dont follow such logical sense and I`m not expecting this to be any different as it could easily ruin One Piece, but it would be interesting.
I`m open to questions and critics, however with the latter, do bring arguments that make sense please.
Edit: I see I failed to have taken Blackbeard into my theorie, however it changes little. If Blackbeard were to show up, he could be part of the war and thus end up severly weakened aswell, be the 3 party who makes short work of the winner or not be in for victory at all and just follow his own objectives(like Luffy, who has no interest in winning the war either, he just wants to free Ace). Looking at the size of his current crew and his character, I don`t see Blackbeard creating a new world order.
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moorkopf, I think that ignoring Blackbeard screws your whole point. I think it's obvious that Blackbeard will be the most important factor in this war, and will become the successor to Whitebeard (just look at their names and the warning of Shanks, duh). Add to this the "D" in his name, his mirror-matchup style to Luffy, and the revenge Luffy would want on Blackbeard for what he did to Ace… and you have the perfect main villain. And this is the perfect opportunity for him to show his stuff.
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As you may have seen, I added Blackbeard to the theorie later, I did indeed completely forget about him (Bad Moorkopff :O). Unless Blackbeard suddenly joins forces with the World Goverment again (I doubt it), he will be allied with neither, which would mean that the World Goverment and Whitebeard crews would still take a lot of casualties.
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I doubt the 3 other yonkous would care so much about the marines/wg to leave their territory only to take down any marines who survived the actual war. The revolutionaries are probably busy freeing more islands :) But the marines want to take that risk just to have Wbs head.
BB never quit the shichibukai. I don't see why he would after this war. It's quite comfortable.
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Well the lives of the Yonkou and Revolutionary's would be a lot easier without the World Goverment, I think especially Dragon wouldnt let a chance to destroy the World Goverment at its weakest go by.
And I don`t think the World Goverment would be willing to have a man who infiltrated Impel Down with force and whose crew now holds Shiryuu of the rain as Shichibukai.
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BB never quit the shichibukai. I don't see why he would after this war. It's quite comfortable.
Blackbeard destroyed a large chunk of Impel downs staff and beat Hannibal. He also abandoned the marines in their hour of need….
I doubt he would be allowed to keep his title after such actions. But then again I don't think he wanted to keep the title, but merely use it as a way to gain more power and fame. Now he's got that he can focus on his next stage of the plan.
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Well if BB comes at the MHQ and take down WB then they will be glad that he helped them to get rid of their worst enemy. Even if it involved the help of some level 6 prisoners.
Dragons business is to weaken the WG by freeing more and more countries. If most of the marines are now busy with WB then the WG countries only have their own army to rely on.
Blackbeard destroyed a large chunk of Impel downs staff and beat Hannibal. He also abandoned the marines in their hour of need….
I doubt he would be allowed to keep his title after such actions. But then again I don't think he wanted to keep the title, but merely use it as a way to gain more power and fame. Now he's got that he can focus on his next stage of the plan.He didn't destroyed the prison itself? He just took down guards who wanted to stop him. He was basically just saving himself and his crew.
Now think about what BBs plan was before Ace even appeared: "take down a 100mill guy and become a shichibukai".What has he done since he joined the shichis? Why did he tried to become a shichibukai? Just because the title itself make him well known? With his power he could have made a name by himself in the new world.
The war is just because Ace was hurt and is a few hours away from getting killed. Remember BB even tried to convince Ace to join his crew.
Now he joined because being a shichibukai is quite comfortable not having the marines and all the bounty hunters constantly trying to kill him! If WB dies and he quit the marines he would have to deal with 3 other yonkous and the marines so why not continue working with the marines to get rid of the rest? -
I doubt that with the absolute justice thing, Blackbeard allying with the World Goverment is accepted by some high members and like Smudge said, I also doubt he'd want his status back.
Off course Dragon aims to free countries, probably because he too could not beat the World Goverment straight on, however if he had the chance, why not liberate them all in one big sweep at Marine Headquarters.
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Don't forget that the marines tolerate slavery. They're working with dangerous pirates (hancock + pirate crew doflaming + slavery empire moria + zombie army…). As long as BB helps them there is no real danger for him to loose his title. The WG is power hungry and BB is offering them what they need.
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He didn't destroy the prison itself? He just took down guards who wanted to stop him. He was basically just saving himself and his crew.
Now think about what BBs plan was before Ace even appeared: "take down a 100mill guy and become a shichibukai". What has he done since he joined the shichis? Why did he tried to become a shichibukai? Just because the title itself make him well known? With his power he could have made a name by himself in the new world.You seriously think Blackbeard will allow Impel down and its staff survive after he's got what he came for? If he removes any evidence then he might be able to retain his title. I see Impel down suffering a similar fate to banaro Island.
Temporarily keeping his alliance will allow him to enter the war once its reaching its peek and cause destruction on the decimated remaining fleet. Basically arriving once both sides are depleted removes most of the obstacles that would have been in his way. Allowing him to take Whitebeards head and declare himself the new Yonkou.
Remember Blackbeard wants to be Pirate King, which means he needs fame, power and fortune. By becoming a shichibukai he gained fame, by gathering a decent crew and a strong df he gained power, and by plundering gaining Aces bounty he gained fortune.
His next goals should be to improve all of those three attributes to claim that title. This might involve him boosting his power with the Impel down inmates, killing Whitebeard to take his powerful title and take the final steps needed to be declared Pirate king.
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You seriously think Blackbeard will allow Impel down and its staff survive after he's got what he came for? If he removes any evidence then he might be able to retain his title. I see Impel down suffering a similar fate to banaro Island.
And even if BB destroys ID… "Luffy is the one to be blamed everything"
Temporarily keeping his alliance will allow him to enter the war once its reaching its peek and cause destruction on the decimated remaining fleet. Basically arriving once both sides are depleted removes most of the obstacles that would have been in his way. Allowing him to take Whitebeards head and declare himself the new Yonkou.
According to you BB has already lost his title when he broke in ID and weren't there when the marines needed him.
Remember Blackbeard wants to be Pirate King, which means he needs fame, power and fortune. By becoming a shichibukai he gained fame,
He has the power to take down Ace a commander of WBs fleet. Why does he need to become a shichi to gain fame? It doesn't fit!
take the final steps needed to be declared Pirate king.
Which would mean defeating the other yonkous which isn't an easy task if you have the marines hunting you. So why not continue the alliance and use the marines till the other yonkous are weak enough to make his own move out of the marines shadows?
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So in OP talent doesn't exist, Sanji could be the swordsman that Zoro is if he tried and wanted it badly enough. Same for Luffy if he wanted to be a navigator like Nami. Haki is strictly willpower that for some reason decided to manifest it's self magically to KO a bull but is in no way a latent power, so Luffy was using haki all along (cuz you can't say that it's impossible to acquire haki through willpower because haki is willpower Dizzy). And Hancock and Luffy have haoshoku which is just a fancy name for "moar willpower". The only thing separating Cabaji from Luffy is willpower and training (gasp did he say only willpower?!).
And after all this it would still be impossible for Ace to develop the willpower to want to achieve the dream (or even be a contender) that WB had for him after WB's demise because…??? So I guess willpower is the only true latent power but wait... There is no latent power or talent in OP. I've learned much this day.
Good lord. You're making me nervous now.
It's stupid to take out environment from the equation. The life experiences, their idols and teachers, the goals they strive for and the skill that they acquire growing up, you can't take those out of the equation and wipe the slate clean when they're all (around)17. Shit happenned to them that made them who they are.
Luffy couldn't be a navigator ever. His life experiences growing up made his ambition to be PK clear as day. There is no desire for being anything else at all. If Luffy's life goal had been to be the best navigator, then daft as he is trust me that eventually he would have developed those same skills as Nami through hard work. But as he is now he could never develop those same skills. This is because growing up he was conditioned towards wanting something and that required him to train and become strong, like the idols he was exposed to.(red hair pirates) That overwhelming desire gives him a ONE-TRACK-MIND. Do you know what this means? He couldn't ever understand a single concept about air pressure, swordsmanship or cooking, because he doesn't have even a slightly remote interest in these things. He knows that if he is going to be the best pirate, then he needs to live like a pirate, be strong like a pirate, and make friends and have a crew like a pirate. From the day he set out, this has been his only goal. His nakama were drawn to him because of his unwavering resolve, leadership skills, charisma and strength. They see in him a person they can trust to lead them as they go off and fulfill their own life ambitions.
Don't you get it? If Zoro would have had the same life experience than Sanji, had the same teacher, and developed the same ambitions, then yes, I am also absolutely certain that he would have developed those same skills, and perhaps have a terrible sense of direction.
Now, could Chopper, Nami, or even Zoro ever achieve what Luffy can achieve? Hell yes. If they'd grown up with Garp, had developed a ridiculously strong admiration for piracy in general, and decided that all they ever cared for was being Pirate King and nothing else they could ever do would ever make them happy, and so they would pursue that goal relentlessly until they achieve it or die with no pause or rest? I have no problem with this. It's not about what you inherit. It's about what you WANT.
Luffy is going to achieve something that his MORE TALENTED(because yes, there is talent in OP) competitors, including his brother, could never achieve. Don't you get it. Of course there is talent. People have more or less intelligence. People are taller or prettier or stronger in birth. Vegapunk is a genius, and so is Ace at what he does. There is talent in OP. But the overriding theme is that whatever talents you might have, an idiot who is willing to work harder than you can achieve more than you could ever hope for.
You're just too western for your own good. Go fill out an SAT and feel good about yourself with a 1600 cause you're super smart and then try to apply to any good university in Japan and watch as you get your ass kicked by ABSOLUTELY EVERYONE. Try to apply for any job and see what it requires. You don't even know what hard work is. Being smart will give you an edge, but against people who are willing to work or study 18 hours a day 6 days a week you don't stand a fucking chance.
Read this, or at least skim it. Keyword is Karoshi
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/12/AR2008071201630.htmlThe wonderful thing about OP is that there is no such thing for a man. If he wants it bad enough, his body will become stronger to accomodate for all of the extra work he needs to put in. In real life, Luffy's body would have given out several times already. In the OP world, the strength of one's ambition gives them as much power as they need as long as they keep true. Yes, in OP, ambition is what gives these men superhuman strength. And if that ambition drives a person through enough hardships and life experiences and that person still keeps at it just like when he started, he then misteriously develops an extra level of power that comes with shrugging off all of your failures and pains. If they keep at it some more, then that willpower becomes so strong that it actually manifests as a physical and mental power of supernatural qualities. Or haki. The power of their heart, or in less cheesy terms, resolve.
OP is about passion, romance, and about devoting your entire lifeforce towards furthering your ambition, your dreams. The message is that if you want to achieve it, you must work your ass off and give it your all.
If you keep nagging with how some people can develop more or less power from birth, then you understand nothing about this manga, and you need to go away.
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And even if BB destroys ID… "Luffy is the one to be blamed for everything"
Unless Magellan informs the Marine HQ
According to you BB has already lost his title when he broke in ID and weren't there when the marines needed him.
By removing the evidence and killing Whitebeard he would be seen in a good light regardless of how late he was.
He has the power to take down Ace a commander of WBs fleet. Why does he need to become a shichi to gain fame? It doesn't fit!
Because he needs immunity until he has Whitebeards head and title. Otherwise he wouldn't be able to get close enough. By having the shichibukai title he was allowed entry to many places usual inaccessible to him. By joining it also helped him get recognised by the entire world, Aces defeat may have been covered up and accredited to the marines if he wasn't part of their organisation.
Which would mean defeating the other yonkous which isn't an easy task if you have the marines hunting you. So why not continue the alliance and use the marines till the other yonkous are weak enough to make his own move out of the marines shadows?
Who said he needed to kill all the Yonkou to take the title? If Whitebeard dies then the Yonkou will be busy battling each other and the new world captains for his old territory. Allowing Blackbeard more time to grow in size.
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@Karate:
She's absolutely right about this, everyone should be familiar with the Blackbeard Impel Down theory by now.
I never said she was wrong. Only that she has the worst way of proving her point.
"I already addressed that."
Bullshit. Pics or it didn't happen.
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Unless Magellan informs the Marine HQ
Remember how the marines or the wg or whoever promoted Smoker after crocodiles defeat? Why wouldn't they simply ignore that BB broke the rules to help them killing WB?
By removing the evidence and killing Whitebeard he would be seen in a good light regardless of how late he was.
If he is seen in good light by the marines wouldn't they continue working with him? So you now agree with me.
Because he needs immunity until he has Whitebeards head and title. Otherwise he wouldn't be able to get close enough.
Did one admiral felt the need to shoot at crocodile a former shichibukai who escapd impel down? Why do you think it would be different for BB. The marines see blackbeard entering the battlefield engaging a fight with the Whitebeard pirates… What do you think the marines will do? They will watch the show and even back him off because for them yeah WB needs to die!
Moreover why wouldn't Blackbeard hide on an island near to the MHQ as a non shichibukai waiting for WB to arrive at the MHQ only to attack him when time is right? Why does he need a shichibukai title to do this? Because noone can come near to WB? Lafitte can bring them there...By having the shichibukai title he was allowed entry to many places usual inaccessible to him.
Like what? Vegapunks library? Nah just kidding :)
Hey i can even see that happen. If blackbeard is actually wanting something the marines have…By joining it also helped him get recognised by the entire world, Aces defeat may have been covered up and accredited to the marines if he wasn't part of their organisation.
If aces defeat was accredited to the marines then no one will know that Teach is actually the one who achieved it? So no fame at all. My point still stands. Without being a shichibukai Teach could have made a name of himself in the new world. He has the power to do it.
Who said he needed to kill all the Yonkou to take the title? If Whitebeard dies then the Yonkou will be busy battling each other and the new world captains for his old territory. Allowing Blackbeard more time to grow in size.
I do think that if he wants to become the next PK he needs to find one piece which means travelling the whole new world entering Yonkou territories while sailing to raftel. Which means fights would be unavoidable. He waited decades to get that fruit. He is already physically strong enough to hurt shanks before he found that DF. He doesn't need to get stronger. Maybe he wants more strong enemies but so far he has a small elite crew and i doubt he will wait to recruit every moron he finds.
I also doubt the yonkous won't notice him crossing their territories on his way to raftel or island XY. -
Good lord. You're making me nervous now.
It's stupid to take out environment from the equation. The life experiences, their idols and teachers, the goals they strive for and the skill that they acquire growing up, you can't take those out of the equation and wipe the slate clean when they're all (around)17. Shit happenned to them that made them who they are.
Luffy couldn't be a navigator ever. His life experiences growing up made his ambition to be PK clear as day. There is no desire for being anything else at all. If Luffy's life goal had been to be the best navigator, then daft as he is trust me that eventually he would have developed those same skills as Nami through hard work. But as he is now he could never develop those same skills. This is because growing up he was conditioned towards wanting something and that required him to train and become strong, like the idols he was exposed to.(red hair pirates) That overwhelming desire gives him a ONE-TRACK-MIND. Do you know what this means? He couldn't ever understand a single concept about air pressure, swordsmanship or cooking, because he doesn't have even a slightly remote interest in these things. He knows that if he is going to be the best pirate, then he needs to live like a pirate, be strong like a pirate, and make friends and have a crew like a pirate. From the day he set out, this has been his only goal. His nakama were drawn to him because of his unwavering resolve, leadership skills, charisma and strength. They see in him a person they can trust to lead them as they go off and fulfill their own life ambitions.
Don't you get it? If Zoro would have had the same life experience than Sanji, had the same teacher, and developed the same ambitions, then yes, I am also absolutely certain that he would have developed those same skills, and perhaps have a terrible sense of direction.
Now, could Chopper, Nami, or even Zoro ever achieve what Luffy can achieve? Hell yes. If they'd grown up with Garp, had developed a ridiculously strong admiration for piracy in general, and decided that all they ever cared for was being Pirate King and nothing else they could ever do would ever make them happy, and so they would pursue that goal relentlessly until they achieve it or die with no pause or rest? I have no problem with this. It's not about what you inherit. It's about what you WANT.
Luffy is going to achieve something that his MORE TALENTED(because yes, there is talent in OP) competitors, including his brother, could never achieve. Don't you get it. Of course there is talent. People have more or less intelligence. People are taller or prettier or stronger in birth. Vegapunk is a genius, and so is Ace at what he does. There is talent in OP. But the overriding theme is that whatever talents you might have, an idiot who is willing to work harder than you can achieve more than you could ever hope for.
You're just too western for your own good. Go fill out an SAT and feel good about yourself with a 1600 cause you're super smart and then try to apply to any good university in Japan and watch as you get your ass kicked by ABSOLUTELY EVERYONE. Try to apply for any job and see what it requires. You don't even know what hard work is. Being smart will give you an edge, but against people who are willing to work or study 18 hours a day 6 days a week you don't stand a fucking chance.
Read this, or at least skim it. Keyword is Karoshi
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/12/AR2008071201630.htmlThe wonderful thing about OP is that there is no such thing for a man. If he wants it bad enough, his body will become stronger to accomodate for all of the extra work he needs to put in. In real life, Luffy's body would have given out several times already. In the OP world, the strength of one's ambition gives them as much power as they need as long as they keep true. Yes, in OP, ambition is what gives these men superhuman strength. And if that ambition drives a person through enough hardships and life experiences and that person still keeps at it just like when he started, he then misteriously develops an extra level of power that comes with shrugging off all of your failures and pains. If they keep at it some more, then that willpower becomes so strong that it actually manifests as a physical and mental power of supernatural qualities. Or haki. The power of their heart, or in less cheesy terms, resolve.
OP is about passion, romance, and about devoting your entire lifeforce towards furthering your ambition, your dreams. The message is that if you want to achieve it, you must work your ass off and give it your all.
If you keep nagging with how some people can develop more or less power from birth, then you understand nothing about this manga, and you need to go away.
Everybody knows the reasons for why Luffy will be PK alright but don't limit OP into just a rehash of the little engine that could because although that's a major part of it there's more to it than that. And you don't know shit about me or how much I know about hardwork so don't go there.
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Everybody knows the reasons for why Luffy will be PK alright but don't limit OP into just a rehash of the little engine that could because although that's a major part of it there's more to it than that. And you don't know shit about me or how much I know about hardwork so don't go there.
I was talking about us westerners in general, not you specifically. I never made it personal at all so please cool your shorts.
Just cause you don't like the theme doesn't mean it isn't so. You can thrash about it all you want.
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I think pwngoat has something to do with all this secret plan of Sengoku's.
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I never said she was wrong. Only that she has the worst way of proving her point.
"I already addressed that."
Bullshit. Pics or it didn't happen.
So you admit you don't read topics then since that's what you think.
Why would I bother going out of my way to show you anything if this is how you're gonna be.
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I was talking about us westerners in general, not you specifically. I never made it personal at all so please cool your shorts.
Just cause you don't like the theme doesn't mean it isn't so. You can thrash about it all you want.
When you admitted that talent exists in OP that supported my thought period. I know the driving theme is willpower but no one can tell me that's all there is.
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I don't think the WG will let BB stay a warlord just because he kill WB. He hurt allot of marines, broke into ID and might free some level 6 guys. Just because he kill WB , don't mean the WG going to forgive him if he free some very dangerous level 6 pirates and add them to his crew.
They would see him as a new threat that openly did what he wanted and is gathering power. Plus he even has a marine that betray the WG do you think they would allow him to live.
It seem that he only wanted to be warlord to get into ID ,now he is there and has done want he wanted i see now reason why he would stay one.
Another thing everyone see WB dying in this war or BB killing him . Just going to say again there are allot of ways to change the era without WB dying. Don't be shock if oda does not kill him and kept a open mind.
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When you admitted that talent exists in OP that supported my thought period. I know the driving theme id willpower but no one can tell me that's all there is.
Sure there's talent but in battle it's all about willpower. So really I wasn't supporting you at all.
You really ought to at least get the gist of it when someone directs a huge ass post at you and you only retain one of it's many many paragraphs.
Willpower. People get good through it and better themselves through it, and at similar levels it's the deciding factor in battles in OP. Not talent. Good lord really.
Shifting topics definately after running into a wall, I must say it really makes no sense if the WG loses, duh, it makes no sense that all of the WB pirates+allies die because Oda wouldn't do that kind of mass death, and the only real way to defuse this with minimal big name casualties is that WB dies, quickly deciding the conflict.
Whether or not this happens with or without saving Ace is unclear, but because it's more probable that Oda will give WB the possibility of furthering his dream before dying, I'm going with Ace escaping. As for WB's defeat, the most probable outcome is death by BB.
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Sure there's talent but in battle it's all about willpower. So really I wasn't supporting you at all.
You really ought to at least get the gist of it when someone directs a huge ass post at you and you only retain one of it's many many paragraphs.
Willpower. People get good through it and better themselves through it, and at similar levels it's the deciding factor in battles in OP. Not talent. Good lord really.
Shifting topics definately after running into a wall, I must say it really makes no sense if the WG loses, no need to say why, it makes no sense that all of the WB pirates+allies die because Oda wouldn't do that kind of mass death, and the only real way to defuse this with minimal big name casualties is that WB dies, quickly deciding the conflict.
Whether or not this happens with or without saving Ace is unclear, but because it's more probable that Oda will give WB the possibility of furthering his dream before dying, I'm going with Ace escaping. As for WB's defeat, the most probable outcome is death by BB.
Battle is about all aspects, if it were all willpower then whenever the Strawhats lost to an opponent we'd be calling there will into question and not the fact that they were outclassed in skill and power. It was a nuance argument and I was trying to point out a subtle difference between making OP a pure afterschool special about perseverance and saying that willpower is a very important aspect but the heroes of the story cannot always win on willpower alone, it takes willpower, skill/talent and luck, and even then the difference in power is too much requiring the SH to get stronger. Willpower is the prequisite required to do anything especially face the odds but that doesn't mean talent doesn't exist.
Anyway I got burned out on long posts yesterday so I was cutting right to the point of a lot of those posts including yours so I'm sorry.
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When has a battle in one piece relied on talent?
And skill in one piece is a product of hard work, which is a product of working towards your goal, which ends up at willpower again.
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This post is deleted!
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I don't think the WG will let BB stay a warlord just because he kill WB. He hurt allot of marines, broke into ID and might free some level 6 guys. Just because he kill WB , don't mean the WG going to forgive him if he free some very dangerous level 6 pirates and add them to his crew.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/483/06/
Moria took the shadow of marines and still worked with them. Doflamingo has an empire of thugs/slavery and the gov still works for him. Hancock has a pirate crew and the marines still work with her. Those level 6 pirates + BB will be decisive in the war. A war the marines are afraid to loose. I don't think you get the scale of WBs power and how bad the marines hope to kill him.They would see him as a new threat that openly did what he wanted and is gathering power.
A power he used to help them.
Plus he even has a marine that betray the WG do you think they would allow him to live.
Ah lafitte? And BB is still a shichibukai right? Lafitte is still his crewmate right now. I mean…
It seem that he only wanted to be warlord to get into ID ,now he is there and has done want he wanted i see now reason why he would stay one.
see above!
Another thing everyone see WB dying in this war or BB killing him . Just going to say again there are allot of ways to change the era without WB dying. Don't be shock if oda does not kill him and kept a open mind.
You mean this?
[hide][/hide]
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When has a battle in one piece relied on talent?
And skill in one piece is a product of hard work, which is a product of working towards your goal, which ends up at willpower again.
If we are talking about OP Skill is not always a by product of hard work . Take Nami for eg she is very skill navigator but that because of her natural born talent , which she also using it in battle. Ussop weapons and how he fight is born from his talent at making weapon.
Yes willpower is important in OP but there also other factors .
@MagneticMonkey
lafitte was a police man not a marine .
Plus all those things you mention just now not one of them are a part of the marines, kill fodder marines is nothing compare to breaking into one of the 3 great marines strongholds.
Even if he use that power to help them that don't mean the marines going to see that way or the WG. They could say he was a part of WB crew and use them to help kill WB while gaining power for himself. -
If we are talking about OP Skill is not always a by product of hard work . Take Nami for eg she is very skill navigator but that because of her natural born talent , which she also using it in battle. Ussop weapons and how he fight is born from his talent at making weapon.
Where is the proof of this.
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When has a battle in one piece relied on talent?
And skill in one piece is a product of hard work, which is a product of working towards your goal, which ends up at willpower again.
Well, OP does seem to overemphasize that you can achieve anything if you want it hard enough, and I mean that compared to real life where your genetic predisposition and environment have the majority of the influence. (deterministic theories will go even farther and say your free will is of no consequence at all)
But it isn't only about that in One Piece. Let's take a look at that baroque works girl that could hypnotize through painting.. she sure had a talent for that, to be able to do that at her age. But ofcourse you could argue it was her "willpower", even though she seemed kind of lazy and laid-back. So let's take a more clear example. The will of D. We don't know just what it is yet, but it surely refers to something innate, genetic. Why did the government hunt down Roger's offspring? Why is it a big deal that Luffy is Dragon's son? Clearly there is some potential or whatever you want to call it, that you are born with, that impresses or scares people. Heck, that inborn talent might even be a strong willpower.
And why was that girl that zoro grew up with (Kuina?), complaining about lacking physical strength because she is a girl? Someone should have told that bitch it was all about her willpower anyway!
@Darkstorm:Where is the proof of this.
Since that is how it is in reality, the burden of proof is on you. Prove that it is only willpower that makes Nami such a skilled navigator and map maker, and that it has nothing to do with talent.
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Where is the proof of this.
Arlong said it in chapter 92 page 17.
Vivi said it again in chapter 130 page 18.
Nami just has a born talent for being a navigator. -
Arlong said it in chapter 92 page 17.
Vivi said it again in chapter 130 page 18.
Nami just has a born talent for being a navigator.Oh nice job.
"She is very talented"
"there is noone stupid enough to let such talent go to waste"
"this person doesn't only have navigation talents, but she can predict the weather by using her own instincts."
Case closed -
Well, OP does seem to overemphasize that you can achieve anything if you want it hard enough, and I mean that compared to real life where your genetic predisposition and environment have the majority of the influence. (deterministic theories will go even farther and say your free will is of no consequence at all)
But it isn't only about that in One Piece. Let's take a look at that baroque works girl that could hypnotize through painting.. she sure had a talent for that, to be able to do that at her age. But ofcourse you could argue it was her "willpower", even though she seemed kind of lazy and laid-back. So let's take a more clear example. The will of D. We don't know just what it is yet, but it surely refers to something innate, genetic. Why did the government hunt down Roger's offspring? Why is it a big deal that Luffy is Dragon's son? Clearly there is some potential or whatever you want to call it, that you are born with, that impresses or scares people. Heck, that inborn talent might even be a strong willpower.
And why was that girl that zoro grew up with (Kuina?), complaining about lacking physical strength because she is a girl? Someone should have told that bitch it was all about her willpower anyway!
Since that is how it is in reality, the burden of proof is on you. Prove that it is only willpower that makes Nami such a skilled navigator and map maker, and that it has nothing to do with talent.
Thank you winter and andy, I couldn't get anyone to grasp this concept. Good shit
guys.
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Well, OP does seem to overemphasize that you can achieve anything if you want it hard enough, and I mean that compared to real life where your genetic predisposition and environment have the majority of the influence. (deterministic theories will go even farther and say your free will is of no consequence at all)
But it isn't only about that in One Piece. Let's take a look at that baroque works girl that could hypnotize through painting.. she sure had a talent for that, to be able to do that at her age. But ofcourse you could argue it was her "willpower", even though she seemed kind of lazy and laid-back. So let's take a more clear example. The will of D. We don't know just what it is yet, but it surely refers to something innate, genetic. Why did the government hunt down Roger's offspring? Why is it a big deal that Luffy is Dragon's son? Clearly there is some potential or whatever you want to call it, that you are born with, that impresses or scares people. Heck, that inborn talent might even be a strong willpower.
And why was that girl that zoro grew up with (Kuina?), complaining about lacking physical strength because she is a girl? Someone should have told that bitch it was all about her willpower anyway!
Since that is how it is in reality, the burden of proof is on you. Prove that it is only willpower that makes Nami such a skilled navigator and map maker, and that it has nothing to do with talent.
LOL. You really think that in real life genetic predisposition and environmental factors have the majority of the influence? That is just truly lame. That's the biggest excuse for sitting on your ass, convincing yourself you can't change stuff anyway. Real go-getter, that's what you are.
I am sorry sir, but you can actually choose to stop eating that candy. "No, I have a genetic predisposition to bad serotonin production and I must cram myself full of sugar to get some semblance of satisfaction". But you weigh 400 pounds and will probably die in your lat forties or fifties! "Oh well, I wasn't raised right either, nothing I can do".
Oh wait. Yeah that's actually not how real life works at all.
It would be stupid to say that talent has no effect upon Nami's unique skills. It's obvious that she's smart. But Nami was resilient enough to keep working for a man who mentally (and probably physically too) abused her just so that she could save her village. In all that time she kept working with maps to appease the will of the Arlong pirates. She would never have gotten so good without all of the practice, as well as the love she had for her craft of map-making and navigation. She had a dream to make a map of the world and even under all that pressure she steadfastly honed her craft. She could have just as well not accepted the danger of working for Arlong, or escaped. So yeah she would not have attained such a high level of skill solely on talent. She worked hard to become the person that she is.
But in battle? Yeah I'm pretty certain it's all about will.
We don't know shit about the will of D. But there is one thing I can assure you. It's not a genetic superpower! FOR &·($)=!% SAKE THERE IS NO SECRET GENETIC HAKI SHARINGAN!!!!!
They are probably scared that Roger left sensitive information to his son. If Ace had shown no aptitude or ambition for becoming a great pirate they wouldn't be killing him off now. A 22 year old painter really wouldn't scare them that much.
And why are they worried that a rookie who is growing in power is the son of the world's most wanted man and leader of the revolutionaries? Well if you can't figure that out, you should leave too.
Oh yeah, someone should have told Kuina about Boa Hancock.
Well look at that. GEEZ.
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@UsoppSpell
This is an argument of nature vs. nurture that still is debated to this day, bottomline is that OP exhibits both sides of the coin which is all I was saying. And this still holds true in battle, in Shabondy the SH will started out strong but they still lost and not because Kizaru and co. had stronger will necessarily, it was because they were just too strong. -
That's the biggest excuse for sitting on your ass, convincing yourself you can't change stuff anyway. Real go-getter, that's what you are. I am sorry sir, but you can actually choose to stop eating that candy. "No, I have a genetic predisposition to bad serotonin production and I must cram myself full of sugar to get some semblance of satisfaction". But you weigh 400 pounds and will probably die in your lat forties or fifties! "Oh well, I wasn't raised right either, nothing I can do".
Isn't that just an extreme example of complete influence? And irrational behavior, at that?
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LOL. You really think that in real life genetic predisposition and environmental factors have the majority of the influence? That is just truly lame. That's the biggest excuse for sitting on your ass, convincing yourself you can't change stuff anyway. Real go-getter, that's what you are.
I am sorry sir, but you can actually choose to stop eating that candy. "No, I have a genetic predisposition to bad serotonin production and I must cram myself full of sugar to get some semblance of satisfaction". But you weigh 400 pounds and will probably die in your lat forties or fifties! "Oh well, I wasn't raised right either, nothing I can do".
Oh wait. Yeah that's actually not how real life works at all.
It would be stupid to say that talent has no effect upon Nami's unique skills. It's obvious that she's smart. But Nami was resilient enough to keep working for a man who mentally (and probably physically too) abused her just so that she could save her village. In all that time she kept working with maps to appease the will of the Arlong pirates. She would never have gotten so good without all of the practice, as well as the love she had for her craft of map-making and navigation. She had a dream to make a map of the world and even under all that pressure she steadfastly honed her craft. She could have just as well not accepted the danger of working for Arlong, or escaped. So yeah she would not have attained such a high level of skill solely on talent. She worked hard to become the person that she is.
But in battle? Yeah I'm pretty certain it's all about will.
We don't know shit about the will of D. But there is one thing I can assure you. It's not a genetic superpower! FOR &·($)=!% SAKE THERE IS NO SECRET GENETIC HAKI SHARINGAN!!!!!
They are probably scared that Roger left sensitive information to his son. If Ace had shown no aptitude or ambition for becoming a great pirate they wouldn't be killing him off now. A 22 year old painter really wouldn't scare them that much.
And why are they worried that a rookie who is growing in power is the son of the world's most wanted man and leader of the revolutionaries? Well if you can't figure that out, you should leave too.
Oh yeah, someone should have told Kuina about Boa Hancock.
Well look at that. GEEZ.
Nami was good at making maps at 8 years old.
Nami fights using a weapon that is base on her talents.
When nami wins a fight it is base on willpower and her talent at using her weapon.
You have no proof to say that nami would have not been just as good if she did not work under along. Since that is what she wanted to do any way if arlong was not there she go on to make great map maker any way. -
The hell does Magellan have to do with anything.
Because that's what gonna happen when the Blackbeard Pirates get back from Impel Down.
I wasn't the one who said that Ace would or needs to change, HaxeyeMihawk did.
You said anyone who showed up would of gotten their ass whip and i said Magellan wouldn't. We will see if BB fights WB one on one or he tricks him to beat him.