For the record, Oda said that regardless of who joins the crew, Usopp will always be the weakest Strawhat in a discussion with Tanaka Mayumi, in the 10th Anniversary One Piece Treasures collection, not an SBS.
The rankings we give the crew.
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he needs Cola to use powerful attacks.
what the hell does that mean? it's a fuel source for his body, the other straw hats need energy, needing cola doesn't mean anything!
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Remember Water 7? He went toe to toe with Luffy there, just like Zoro did. Except he was actually owning Luffy most of the time, before the Galley Workers Showed up
Usopp, beaten and battered Usopp also went toe to toe with Luffy. That means nothing. I agree with what someone said about no tiers, just cases where certain members are at an avantage or disadvantage. The difference is the monster trio is so strong they usually can overcome any disadvantage.
Also, it's a children's comic from Japan.
Why are you comparing it to cultural engravings and burritos.
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what the hell does that mean? it's a fuel source for his body, the other straw hats need energy, needing cola doesn't mean anything!
Well compared to the top 3 it means a lot. He is more limited than the others. It would be the same, if Sanji had to change his shoes
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@Ao:
Usopp, beaten and battered Usopp also went toe to toe with Luffy. That means nothing. I agree with what someone said about no tiers, just cases where certain members are at an avantage or disadvantage. The difference is the monster trio is so strong they usually can overcome any disadvantage.
so only things in the monsters favor count is what you're saying? Regardless of the situation franky went toe to toe with him, and neither of them was at an advantage.
BTW, a bike is better then a car, cars run on gas.
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Lobster, get this through your head. Oda-Sensei said, in an interview, with no ambiguity whatsoever, to the VA of Luffy, in no joking manner, counting all Straw Hats who have joined and will join, Usopp is the weakest. The author himself says so. Case Closed.
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To the person who said Zoro was the same as Luffy, you are wrong. Zoro even said it himself. Look at the enies lobby arc, Lucci "power" level was much almost double Kaku and Jybaru.(sp)
Luffy
Zoro
SanjiFranky
Brooke
RobinChopper
Nami
Ussop -
Lobster, get this through your head. Oda-Sensei said, in an interview, with no ambiguity whatsoever, to the VA of Luffy, in no joking manner, counting all Straw Hats who have joined and will join, Usopp is the weakest. The author himself says so. Case Closed.
No
He wasn't counting Nami
Case closed
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im starting to think LPS is just trolling now.
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@Lobster:
No
He wasn't counting Nami
Case closed
I hope BF won't ban me again but I HAVE TO SAY IT.
You are an idiot Lobster facepalm
Dunno why you aren't kicked out ouf this forum… You are ignoring facts and are just talking bullshit which you really believe is correct.
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Only partially. That is a much more effective technique than you are giving her credit for.
My point was that Robin tends to used simple painful techniques like the bending back of fingers, the twisting of arms, pulling of eyelids etc. to manipulate the bodies of her opponent and distract them while she prepares for the more devastating bone breaking grapples that you referred to. In fact, she generally reserves the spine crunching for when she is extremely angry.
Not trying to sound condescending here, but I know how Robin fights. This wasn't really needed.
My interpretation is that Robin tried a similar trick on jigorou, only to find that he was he was impervious to pain. This gave jiggy enough time to put a blade to her throat, disabling any chance to develop a new attack. Zoro does not have this resilience to pain and is therefore more vulnerable.
That's just it though, we don't know what happened exactly. I'm going by what we've been shown, and what that happened to be was Robin and Chopper in submission to Jigoro and Dogpen. As I mentioned before, if they could have beaten the two in a fight it would've happened, and not have had those two tricked into getting commanded to jump out a window.
In fact, Robin DID defeat Zoro, Sanji, Usopp, and Nami simultaneously in chapter 114 when she was introduced as Miss All Sunday: http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/114/10/
Admittedly she had the opportunity of surprise and all of them have advanced in power and techniques since then, but she should still get credit for that win.
Like you said, that was an introduction to her and she can't very well not be introduced as a non-threat. I mean she was the 2nd in command of Baroque Works. I personally wouldn't use that particular situation as a testament to her strength, but I can sort of see why you would.
Actually, the main reason One Piece is so enthralling to me is because it DOESN'T follow that law of shounen that you refer to.
But that's just it, even with all the Devil Fruits and all those random factors, One Piece does indeed follow it. I won't deny that Oda has made most of his fights great and that they've generally been handled well, but to say it hasn't ever done it is sort of ridiculous.
Devil fruits by their vary nature give their users near invulnerability towards certain attacks while giving them great weaknesses towards others. This allows for certain characters being able to defeat the "powerful" while being vulnerable to the "weak," like Perona for instance.
Similarly, Calipha defeated sanji easily and likely could take out luffy thanks to her ability to nullify physical strength. However, Nami doesn't use physical prowess in her attacks and could therefore beat up on calipha using trickery.
The best example of this is Luffy's relationship with Zoro. Luffy is vulnerable to slashing attacks from blades and could never therefore have defeated Mr. 1 or have much chance of ever taking Mihawk. That is why he REQUIRES the "Strongest Swordsman in the World" to be his #2. Similarly, Zoro could never think to defeat the likes of Enel of Crocodile because he lacks luffy's versatility of attack and defense. So comparing the "power" of the two is useless because their strength is symbiotic. They need each other to survive on the Grand Line. These kinds of strengths and weaknesses make determining any universal "power rating" like in DBZ to be absolutely futile. You need more than just "power" to win battles in the GL. You need to make sure that your strengths and weaknesses match up well with your opponents, otherwise your battle will be as futile as Usopp vs Jyabura.
This is what sets One Piece apart in my opinion. While some characters are just plain stronger than others. Because of how varied Devil fruit powers can be and the different ways of fighting that there are in the One Piece world; there are alot more exceptions to the rule than basically all other Shounen out there.
All those examples you've listed are right, but to say that every fight has been a matter of circumstance in reason of powers, abilities, skills, etc. is looking at One Piece in a biased manner. Some characters are just plain stronger than others and there is nothing wrong with that, it's just how the genre works.
@Ao:
Her very first fight as a strawhat was AGAINST a powerhouse=that mountain guy, kama or whatever. And she owned him completely.
Robin is a friggin powerhouse she just has no durability like all the girls in OP.
I rly think people are overestimating Franky's strength. His fighting abilities are really varied and all because he's not especially great at any specific fighting style.Kama was no powerhouse. He was strong yes, but nowhere near a powerhouse. Powerhouses are people like Crocodile, Ener, Lucci and Moria. Due to whatever abilities they may have or just being so strong, Robin can't do much against them and gets taken out rather easily. The statement you quoted from me basically explains why Robin is mid-tier. I don't really see what's worng with that anyway.
The main strength of Franky is his flexibility in terms of fighting style. You don't have to be great at one specific thing to be considered really strong. I mean Franky's a cyborg, he's supposed to pull random things out of his ass.
You do realize Usopp got mugged beyond recognition less than twenty four hours before that fight right? He could barely stand and still gave Luffy a run for his money. You seem to keep using convenient situations that support your theories and ignoring everything else.
You do realize Usopp was the one who set the fight in the first place right? As I mentioned in a former post in this thread. Usopp had enough preptime to set up his arsenal at the location to his liking. There was plenty of room so there wasn't any hindrance to range since that's how Usopp fights due to being a sniper. That's like saying round 2 of Luffy vs Crocodile doesn't count since he recently got stabbed through the gut. It doesn't matter, the fight happened and there was a winner and a loser.
What convenient situations? Of course I'm going to use something that supports what I'm saying as an example, that's the whole idea. How else could I try to prove my point? Also I'm not ignoring anything else, I welcome you to lay out something that is against my point and I will look at it. If I didn't I read it I wouldn't be responding in the first place. Just don't question the validility of what I've put when it's straight from the source.
I'm really suprised so many people think Franky is some kind of behemoth. He seems considerably weaker than Robin to me. Like he's at the top of the second tier of fighters but he's nowhere near the big three.Also Oda-sensei always makes a clear distinction that Robin can almost keep up with the monster trio. She's always labeled as the "powerful lady" on the ship.
I don't know about anyone else, but I've never considered Franky to be a behemoth in terms of fighting. I've always put him mid-tier due to his reliance on cola and his abysmal speed. I consider Franky and Robin pretty close in strength with him being a bit stronger. That's why they're together in the first place, they can hold their own quite well but just aren't monsters in strength like the big 3.
Also, the only time Robin's strength was put along with Luffy, Zoro and Sanji is during the "Gan Fall's whistle" situation in Skypeia. This was before Franky and Brook, and it's known already that she can defend herself quite well unlike the weak 3. Sure she's the strong woman of the Strawhats, but that doesn't put her on par with Luffy, Zoro and Sanji.
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To the person who said Zoro was the same as Luffy, you are wrong. Zoro even said it himself. Look at the enies lobby arc, Lucci "power" level was much almost double Kaku and Jybaru.(sp)
Don't go there… seriously
Or some people will probably show up, posting:
"Luffy = Zoro it's cannon" , "Mihawk > the universe(except whitebeard)"
Complete forgetting that Luffy's ultimate goal is higher then Zoro's.
To become pirate king Luffy probably has to become stronger then Whitebeard. And by defeating Mihawk, Zoro won't be at that level. but some people somehow seem to think, that Zoro will magically surpass Whitebeard by defeating Mihawk.But heck i hate powerleveling, i don't think you can really compare any SH. And i don't think you should. I think Perona was a great example of that. Nobody could beat her, exept Usopp. Just like nobody would've been able to beat mr 1 back in Arabasta exept Zoro.
That's one of the reasons i like OP so much. Every Strawhat is so unique, they all have their own battle's to fight. And they need each other to achieve their goals. This isn't dbz, where every side character suddenly becomes obsolete after the main protagonists powerup.
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As far as Usopp being the weakest. Weakest is up for interpretation. It could simply mean "physically weak". You can be physically weak and still be a force to be reckoned with in a fight if you know how to hurt the opponent effectively.
Also, it's a children's comic from Japan.
Why are you comparing it to cultural engravings and burritos.
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Actually Nami is pretty strong, even those she not much of a fighter. Still she is pretty strong and can probably take on anyone, she still has techinques she hasn't used yet.
I feel bad for chopper, he just there now. He gets in the way.
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That's exactly what I tried to tell Lobster but he won't listen. He's fixed on Usopp being the strongest. There's nothing wrong with being the weakest, Usopp is still an incredibly strong pirate taking advantage of his opponent's weakness and hitting them in the exact right spot.
Oh and Lobster, he counted all the pirates who HAD joined and WILL ever join
INCLUDING NAMI. Oda-sensei said it himself. He went on a huge discussion about how Usopp being the weakest and him getting over his weakness is an incredible tribute to his character. Yatta yatta yatta, point is he said so, I win, you lose.Case closed.
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I can't stand you guys argument for Usopp they are so stupid. The reason we all love Usopp is because he is the weakest. His fights are interesting and wondering how he is going to beat this much stronger person. Anybody he beats is way stronger than himself. Or did you guys just make Usopp stronger than them because he beat them. He is still weaker.
Imagine if Usopp was considered the top tier fighter or something. Say his dream was to be the strongest fighter. It would just be pathetic, you would all be thinking there is no F*ing way. Its because he is the weakest and has a pathetic dream of just becoming brave that we all like him and want him to be strong. But face it he ain't.
And Lobster I want you to show me any panal where Usopp is beating somebody at Enies Lobby. And not the shooting of far away. I know that part, and those are weak guys. The captains and Commanders part. Everybody except him and Chopper take some guys out. Usopp only does his chalk fingers.
edit: According to Oda in a discussion with Tanaka Mayumi, Luffy's Voice Actress, regardless who joins the crew, Usopp will always be the weakest of the Straw Hats since otherwise might upset the balance of the story. Oda also states that this is because Usopp is the closest in strength to a regular human compared to the others and thus this portrayal can be easily related by the reader's own strength.[16]
[16]↑ 10th Anniversary One Piece: Treasures - Oda states that he wants Usopp to be always the weakest one in the crew.
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@Kidany:
Not trying to sound condescending here, but I know how Robin fights. This wasn't really needed.
I know you do. Your posts are fairly well thought in general. But, as this is a public forum, I often find that restating the obvious can help avoid misunderstandings by the… less contemplative members of our community.
That's just it though, we don't know what happened exactly. I'm going by what we've been shown, and what that happened to be was Robin and Chopper in submission to Jigoro and Dogpen. As I mentioned before, if they could have beaten the two in a fight it would've happened, and not have had those two tricked into getting commanded to jump out a window.
Possibly. My opinion is simply that they DID defeat those two by getting them to jump out a window. Intelligence beat brawn. If we consider "Power" to be the deciding factor in who wins a fight, the reverse must be true as well. Robin and Chopper won that fight in the end, therefore they were more "powerful" even if their power involved wits and trickery rather than brute strength.
This is what sets One Piece apart in my opinion. While some characters are just plain stronger than others. Because of how varied Devil fruit powers can be and the different ways of fighting that there are in the One Piece world; there are alot more exceptions to the rule than basically all other Shounen out there.
I completely agree with you there. All I'm trying to say is that Oda puts in so many exceptions that the rule nearly becomes meaningless. For example, Perona completely emasculated the Monster trio. They were wishing they'd never been born. She was "just plain stronger" than Luffy, Zoro, Sanji etc. as you put it. But, Usopp discovered her weakness and in the end, was "just plain stronger" then her.
So then, Luffy < Perona< Usopp < Jyabura < Sanji <calipha <="" nami="" <ryuuma="" <zoro="" <enel="" <luffy="" etc.="" <br="">I could probably fit the rest of the crew in that circle as well given some time. My point is that it gets rather silly trying to argue for a strict hierarchy of power when there is such a circular rock/paper/scissors system behind the fights. The better way to look at One Piece characters, in my point of view, is to see them as groupings of strengths and weaknesses.
People in this thread tend to overemphasize certain strengths like physical prowess and damage output, while ignoring others like intelligence or ingenuity. But as many battles have been won in OP thanks to these less respected strengths as from pure brawn because they are required when combating the unlimited variety of enemy strengths and vulnerabilities brought about by DF powers.
However, that is not to say that there isn't a progression in Power as we continue down the Grand Line. Aokiji, for example, has more strengths and fewer weaknesses than any other character seen so far. He's a very powerful mix of brute strength, intelligence, and elemental DF ability. Nevertheless, either Perona and Teach could beat him easily thanks to their abilities to nullify his greatest strengths: will to fight and DF powers.
This is why Luffy developed his Gears and the rest of the troupe are developing their abilities as well. They are each trying to maximize their specialized strengths while making sure that their weaknesses aren't so great that they are a drain on the crew as a whole. But while they each require their comrades to make up for their weaknesses, they also each add an element to a fight that no one else on the crew can. Look at the Odz fight. They won because the physical power houses protected the physically vulnerable while each managed a decisive crippling blow that culminated in the monster's defeat.
To say that Luffy's brute strength was more relevant to that battle than Chopper's intelligence doesn't make sense because both were necessary. The same is potentially true for every fight in OP and to say that brute strength is more powerful than genius intelligence is really comparing apples to oranges and missing the point of the series from my perspective.</calipha>
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That's exactly what I tried to tell Lobster but he won't listen. He's fixed on Usopp being the strongest.
Umm.. LIES?
I just said he was stronger then NAMI
Oh and Lobster, he counted all the pirates who HAD joined and WILL ever join
INCLUDING NAMI.Obviously not, because she's weaker
Oda-sensei said it himself. He went on a huge discussion about how Usopp being the weakest and him getting over his weakness is an incredible tribute to his character.
-show me the exact discussion
-he said Usopp is the weakest FIGHTER, probably not including Nami with the fighters back then, as she is obviously weaker and had had no actual fights yet
-Oda also said that Nami might be the strongest Straw Hat at one point, referring to how she clobbers them and defeats them in comical situations. So do you really believe that she's stronger then Luffy as well?Nami's "strength" is in her Navigational skills, with a bit of power that Usopp gave her. You've already mentioned that she couldn't take a fall from a million stories up, a bat to the head, or snipe someone. We also know that Usopp is FASTER as he outran her in Little Garden by FAR. We also know that he can create larger explosions with gas, fire, and the breath dial.
So how is she "stronger"? Do you think she can bench press more or something?
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Lobster, it doesn't matter what you think, the author said so and he counted Nami. Oda-sensei's word is law since he writes the freakin' thing.
edit: According to Oda in a discussion with Tanaka Mayumi, Luffy's Voice Actress, regardless who joins the crew, Usopp will always be the weakest of the Straw Hats since otherwise might upset the balance of the story. Oda also states that this is because Usopp is the closest in strength to a regular human compared to the others and thus this portrayal can be easily related by the reader's own strength.[16]
[16]↑ 10th Anniversary One Piece: Treasures - Oda states that he wants Usopp to be always the weakest one in the crew.
Pasted from Hinscher's post which you conveniently ignored. Notice how it's the 10th anniversary so Nami had already been established as a fighter. Also notice how deep and heart-felt his explanation was, it doesn't sound like he was joking. It doesn't matter what you think, Lobster. If Oda-Sensei says Usopp is weaker than Nami, than he is weaker than Nami.
CASE FREAKIN' CLOSED!!!
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Lobster, it doesn't matter what you think, the author said so and he counted Nami.
No, I don't believe he wasn't counting her. Prove that he was, when she wasn't even considered one of the "fighters" back then
edit: According to Oda in a discussion with Tanaka Mayumi, Luffy's Voice Actress, regardless who joins the crew, Usopp will always be the weakest of the Straw Hats since otherwise might upset the balance of the story. Oda also states that this is because Usopp is the closest in strength to a regular human compared to the others and thus this portrayal can be easily related by the reader's own strength.[16]
[16]↑ 10th Anniversary One Piece: Treasures - Oda states that he wants Usopp to be always the weakest one in the crew.
Weakest guy probably.
And even if by some fishtale of a chance that were true (which it's not) Oda has contradicted himself by making Ussop clearly stronger then Nami in the series.
Stronger Defense
Stronger Offense
Stronger Will Power
Tougher Battles
Tougher Situationsetc..
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But face it he ain't.
Actually Usopp is really brave. The other members are just so damn reckless.
And Lobster I want you to show me any panal where Usopp is beating somebody at Enies Lobby. And not the shooting of far away. I know that part, and those are weak guys. The captains and Commanders part.
Usopp is the sniper. Why the hell would he try to take on a Marine Commander using his bare fist?!
Usopp is technically the weakest member of the crew but the crew is so strong that he's a behemoth for a normal person and even alot of Marines to take on. I'd say taking out Marine captains with a single shot is pretty impressive. -
Lobster, it doesn't matter what you think, the author said so and he counted Nami. Oda-sensei's word is law since he writes the freakin' thing.
Oda once said One Piece was going to last only five years.
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It was the 10th Anniversary which was during Sanji and Absalom's fight. She had already established herself as a fighter.
He said out of the entire crew who have joined and will ever join including women. I'm not gonnna waste time looking for the exact artive for you ,Lobster. If you care so much, look for it yourself and see with your eyes.
Oda-sensei did not contradict himself, it's just he has a different (and more accurate) idea of what true strength is.
Regardless, of what you think, it's his manga, his world, his rules. If he says Usopp is weaker than Nami, HE IS!!!
You lose, I win. That's it. Case Closed.
Edit: I completely agree with Ao Kiji
To Wagomu:… What the hell does that have to do with anything. He makes his manga too long but I think he fricken' knows how own characters. How long it takes has nothing to do with the actual fricken' story. My God, I'm surrounded by idiots.
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To Wagomu:… What the hell does that have to do with anything. He makes his manga too long but I think he fricken' knows how own characters. How long it takes has nothing to do with the actual fricken' story. My God, I'm surrounded by idiots.
If everything Oda says is fact, then One Piece is long dead.
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What Oda-sensei says was that regardless of the situation he always WANTS to keep Usopp the weakest in the crew. Because the reason he likes the character is Usopp's struggle to become stronger and he hopes that as the readers see Usopp they'll get inspired to become stronger and relate to Usopp as they grow older and become stronger people,too.
It's in greg's last Oda-sensei interview thread.
Also, it's a children's comic from Japan.
Why are you comparing it to cultural engravings and burritos.
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@Lobster:
And even if by some fishtale of a chance that were true (which it's not) Oda has contradicted himself by making Ussop clearly stronger then Nami in the series.
Stronger Defense
Stronger Offense
Stronger Will Power
Tougher Battles
Tougher Situationsetc..
Um not sure on your evidence for those claims. My guess is your throwing out the 4 ton bat. Like everyone always does.
The first three though are imposible to determine in a manga.
lets take tougher battles though. Ok Arabasta arc. Usopp fought against Mr. 4 pair with, Chopper. Whom actually did all the damage. The only thing Usopp did the whole time was a fake 5 ton hammer, and shot a hammer off of Choppers horns. Now who did Nami fight. Mr. 1 pair. If I remember correctly 1 is stronger than 4.
Now then next is Skypiea. neither fought anyone, but Nami was inteligent enough to use her wits for deflecting the lightning. Usopp now (what is one of his weapons) I believe rubberband. He knows he is fighting lightning, yet he did not fire a rubberband at all.
Ok Enies Lobby. She fought and beat a CP9 member. Usopp shot at marine pawns/Spandam.
Now Thriller Bark, yes he did beat Perona. But that was basically he was Luffy vs. Enel fight. He was her weakness, and defeating her two captains was a sneak attack salt, and a reject dial/impact dial of one of peronas attacks. He just psyched her out into being unconscious. Yes I know he could have wailed on her since she was stuck. But I mean technically Nami also beat Absolom. Hahaa.
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In the story, Wagomu, his word is law in the story, as if that weren't frickin' obvious.
Ao Kiji, once again, I completely agree, couldn't say it better myself. Lobster just can't get it through his head because he has the intelligence of a Ding Bat.
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In the story, Wagomu, his word is law in the story, as if that weren't frickin' obvious.
Ao Kiji, once again, I completely agree, couldn't say it better myself. Lobster just can't get it through his head because he has the intelligence of a Ding Bat.
Length has nothing to do with the story?
3DS FC: 0662-3589-2887
NNID: Gibbs-free
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I was pointing out how you're both kinda wrong on this.
Oda-sensei said he wanted to but he could easily change that on the fly if he feels it fits the story better. Also he doesnt elaborate on his definition of weak. Usopp clearly can take a hit much better than Nami. It's like how Nami is supposed to be smarter than Usopp by a mile. Infact, Usopp has a relatively low intelligence ranking according to Oda-sensei but the rest of the crew turns to him as "the clever guy who comes up with plans" and the inventor of the crew. -
Length has nothing to do with the CONTENT of the story which an author should know everything about (at least a good one which Oda-sensei has time and time again, proven himself to be above excellent)
Of course, you knew this>.>
You're trying to be funny, aren't you?:getlost:
That's what I mean, they have their own individual strengths, Usopp's is taking damage, Nami's is intelligence. Overall however, by Oda-sensei's definition, Nami is stronger and we must adhere to that.
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Length has a big impact on story.
3DS FC: 0662-3589-2887
NNID: Gibbs-free
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…
Forgive me, I've been in a constant embroilment with the forum's greatest psycho and it has taken a serious toll on my patience. But seriously, stop trying to be funny. It'll only add fuel to the fire:getlost:
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Oda-sensei's definition, Nami is stronger and we must adhere to that.
Ummm…no? I prefer to actually use my brain instead of let it sit in my skull collecting dust. I disagree that Nami is smarter than Usopp. I was gonna say she the book-smartest of the crew before Usopp starting inventing gizmos left and right. I really think the inventor thing was something Oda-sensei added onto his character as the story progressed AFTER he made those little rpg stats for Usopp and Nami.
but then again, I'm one of those cooks who considers Luffy to be extremely clever when it comes to using his devil fruit well.
Also, it's a children's comic from Japan.
Why are you comparing it to cultural engravings and burritos.
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No, I'm being quite serious. The reason why Loguetown didn't include all that Oda wanted? Story length(the timing of chapter 100).
All I'm pointing out is that Oda's words aren't set in stone.
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Length of a story is gonna effect a lot of things yes. The longer the story the stronger Usopp will get or appear. But also all other characters are gonna get stronger as well. Just cause he thought it woudl last 5 years, does not mean that if it last 15 Usopp will end up being the 3rd strongest or something.
If an author plans on having someone be the weakest no matter how long it is, its still the authors drawings and story. He said it would possibly screw up the story if Usopp wasn't the weakest. So I doubt he would mess that up.
Why do you guys care so much about him being weak, just face it. That is part of his character and charm. If you change that fact then it wouldn't be Usopp anymore. And again about the pain tollerance. If you would substitute perfectly a man for Nami. Same attacks, same dream, same str ect. I bet in his battles he woudl take a shit ton of damage as well as all other guys do. Its because Nami is a girl she don't take the huge damage and bones breaking in face ect. This isn't a gory manga where Woman are getting rapped/beat/killed ect. THis is for kids/mothers/ect. He isn't going to have the woman take huge beatings in battle. And for the little older teenagers and adults he makes them rip a bit of their clothing or other things during battle.
But wait guys since the manga has passed the 5 years now. I bet Luffy no longer becomes Pirate King. I mean Oda didn't plan this far. Since 5 years has passed and Luffy was supposed to be king by now and he isn't. Then anything is game.
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True but the things he DOES write and any ambiguities concerning them are determined by him.
Anyway Ao Kiji, whatever rocks your boat but personally I prefer listening to the author since he knows what he's doing. Also it makes most sense, story-wise so yeah.
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Some one Mentioned earlier that Usopp could take more damage than Chopper, Nico Robin, and Nami, but both Chopper and Nico Robin have shown that they can perhaps take just as much. In Chopper's case see the Kumadori fight. He gets royally "F"ed up from burns and shigans galore. Robin on the other hand has been impaled by Crocodile and lived like Luffy barely did earlier in that same arc. But as for Nami, all I can think of is a shigan and a spike through the foot. Here's my tier for Pain Threshholds (I didn't put brooke here because it's hard to tell with him being a skeloten and all + he's brand new)
1.Zoro (See end of Thriller Bark = no contest)
2.Luffy
3.Sanji
4.Franky
5.Usopp
6.Robin
7.Chopper
8.Nami -
Think Luffy still should hold the title for pain treshold.
He suffered through Kuro's slash barrage, punched through a wall of spikes to get at Krieg, took Arlong's bite to the neck, walked off Mr.5s kicks as if theyw ere nothing, climbed a huge mountain and fell like a 1000 feet with his fingers being torn off as he slid down, then he climbed the mountain again, took a hook to the gut, gut dehydrated and still managed to go on fighting, took a fuxorz amount of Damage by Foxy, suffered an incalculable amount of damage by Lucci to the point he couldn't move including 3 Rokougans and still wanted to fight in the Enies Lobby escape, he felt the pain of a 100 shadows leaving his body, yet still got up and took down both Oz AND Moria, not to mention the damage he took from using his gears and don't forget all the damage Zoro got was Luffy's. The guy is a monster. Zoro definitely comes in second though or at least tied.
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I know you do. Your posts are fairly well thought in general. But, as this is a public forum, I often find that restating the obvious can help avoid misunderstandings by the… less contemplative members of our community.
Good point.
Possibly. My opinion is simply that they DID defeat those two by getting them to jump out a window. Intelligence beat brawn. If we consider "Power" to be the deciding factor in who wins a fight, the reverse must be true as well. Robin and Chopper won that fight in the end, therefore they were more "powerful" even if their power involved wits and trickery rather than brute strength.
I more saw it as beating Hogback since it was basically fooling him into ordering them out the window and not Jigoro and Dogpen themselves. I'm just saying that before tricking Hogback became an issue that they were basically at Jigoro and Dogpen's mercy. The fact the remains that they couldn't beat a weaker zombie Zoro and a penguin-legged Sanji on their own. I guess it just comes down to what we interpreted from each fight. Don't get me wrong, you are right I won't deny that they did in fact win the fight at the end.
I completely agree with you there. All I'm trying to say is that Oda puts in so many exceptions that the rule nearly becomes meaningless. For example, Perona completely emasculated the Monster trio. They were wishing they'd never been born. She was "just plain stronger" than Luffy, Zoro, Sanji etc. as you put it. But, Usopp discovered her weakness and in the end, was "just plain stronger" then her.
So then, Luffy < Perona< Usopp < Jyabura < Sanji <calipha <="" nami="" <ryuuma="" <zoro="" <enel="" <luffy="" etc.="" <br="">I could probably fit the rest of the crew in that circle as well given some time. My point is that it gets rather silly trying to argue for a strict hierarchy of power when there is such a circular rock/paper/scissors system behind the fights. The better way to look at One Piece characters, in my point of view, is to see them as groupings of strengths and weaknesses.
People in this thread tend to overemphasize certain strengths like physical prowess and damage output, while ignoring others like intelligence or ingenuity. But as many battles have been won in OP thanks to these less respected strengths as from pure brawn because they are required when combating the unlimited variety of enemy strengths and vulnerabilities brought about by DF powers.</calipha>
I agree with you as well, I'm just stating that isn't completely dependent on said rock/paper/scissors system. Some characters are indeed just plain stronger than others. This is including intelligence, fighting style, etc., but I don't think I'm personally making my view of their strength so strict. I mean right now I don't see Robin stronger than Franky, but later on down when we see more of both I could easily see examples that show me the opposite. Although I don't know if you're referring to me specifically when you say this, if you're not the I apologize.
However, that is not to say that there isn't a progression in Power as we continue down the Grand Line. Aokiji, for example, has more strengths and fewer weaknesses than any other character seen so far. He's a very powerful mix of brute strength, intelligence, and elemental DF ability. Nevertheless, either Perona and Teach could beat him easily thanks to their abilities to nullify his greatest strengths: will to fight and DF powers.
I don't know about easily against Blackbeard but I agree.
This is why Luffy developed his Gears and the rest of the troupe are developing their abilities as well. They are each trying to maximize their specialized strengths while making sure that their weaknesses aren't so great that they are a drain on the crew as a whole. But while they each require their comrades to make up for their weaknesses, they also each add an element to a fight that no one else on the crew can. Look at the Odz fight. They won because the physical power houses protected the physically vulnerable while each managed a decisive crippling blow that culminated in the monster's defeat.
I'm in agreement here as well so I have nothing to add.
To say that Luffy's brute strength was more relevant to that battle than Chopper's intelligence doesn't make sense because both were necessary. The same is potentially true for every fight in OP and to say that brute strength is more powerful than genius intelligence is really comparing apples to oranges and missing the point of the series from my perspective.
Well from what we've seen in the One Piece world it seems to run by a "might makes right" mindset. I mean most of the characters with influential power or are in a position of power are mainly strong fight-wise not intelligence-wise but that usually comes with the territory in Shounen.
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Well yea I ain't sure on Pain threshold things. Its always hard to determine how much they actually receive. But its hard to argue that Zoro isn't higher or tied with Luffy. yea all your examples are good, but people do get stronger. And when shown Zoro is always the one loosing the most blood and what not. Plus Luffy is rubber so punches he recieves don't hurt him as much as so on. So if they both got a full powered punch from franky, Zoro would take more damage.
But in Thriller bark were its hard to determine Luffy's damage, he does become unconscious, while Zoro is still up, plus takes Luffy's damage. then he stil lis stanking when Sanji comes. Yes he out for 2 days, or 3. But so was Luffy after Arabasta, and not sure how much he slept after Enies Lobby.
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It was 1 week that he stayed asleep. Would have been longer if Garp didn't show up.
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Usopp is weaker than Nami, HE IS!!!
No he is not
Are his defenses stronger? YES (he can take impact dials to the face, giant wolf claws, 1,000 foot falls onto his head, 5 ton bats to the face)
His attacks? YES (impact dial, gas explosions, breath dial explosions, shurikens, flavor tabasco star)
His endurance? (Franky Family and vs Luffy all in one day, can run for extended periods ex. Chuu)
His speed? YES (outran Nami by FAR in Little Garden)
His trials? YES (his villains actually try to constantly kill him, and don't just stand there looking while he fools around)technically Nami also beat Absolom.
-After Sanji left him with only 1 HP
-All she did was point Usopp's weapon at him and press the triggerthat's not strength
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wow, after I started this I thought I'd be called a douchebag like 16 times and then this thread would be forgotten.
Lobster, I try to defend you sometimes, but it's hard when you're making such awfull arguments.
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Lobster, I try to defend you sometimes, but it's hard when you're making such awfull arguments.
Good thing it's not one of those times
Ahh I'm done now
I don't really care that much about this anyway..
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Talk about Selective Quoting.
You just invalidated all my trials and tribulations in trying to beat some sense into you with your sheer ignorance and stupidity. Everything I said on individual strengths and how they're all strong in their own way and how Usopp's weaknesses are important for his character just flew right past you, didn't it Lobster? The interview I told you about giving you the exact location of the lines which say I am right and you are not yet you chose to ignore, again. I'm starting to think you are nothing but just a troll, Lobster.
OK, I'm gonna say this the last time, Author's word is final. If Oda-sensei says Usopp is weaker than Nami(since it is his manga) then he is weaker than Nami because Oda-sensei said so who writes the manga. Case closed.
Regardless, of what you think, it's his manga, his world, his rules. If he says Usopp is weaker than Nami, HE IS!!!
This part in bold is the part you cut out to suit your needs
Here's the post you butchered with your selective quoting. Once again, Author has final word and that's that.
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in my opinion we have three trios :
- Luffy, Zoro, Sanji - insane power, but lack of inteligence or tends to lose temper (Sanji plus ladies)
- Nami, Ussop, Chopper - completly different from the first trio - lack of power, but very intelligent
- Robin, Frankky, Brook - the mid trio - mix of intelligence and power, but less power than the monster trio and less intelligence than the second trio
Wrong .
Robin is probably the smartest person on the ship, followed by Nami, and then Chopper.
There's you're "second trio" if you so wish to call it that.
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Talk about Selective Quoting.
Talk about not quoting at all
You just invalidated all my trials and tribulations in trying to beat some sense into you with your sheer ignorance and stupidity.
Wow. So basically your saying that all I used was ignorance and stupidity; and yet that was enough to invalidate all your evidence? Maybe
Everything I said on individual strengths and how they're all strong in their own way just flew right past you, didn't it Lobster?
Didn't even reach me.. Did you not read my list proving Usopps' superior strength to Nami? In the department of "destruction", "endurance", "speed", "situation", etc..
starting to think you are nothing but just a troll, Lobster
Ohh yea.. well I think your two trolls posting under the same name. Take that
If Oda-sensei says Usopp is weaker than Nami(since it is his manga) then he is weaker than Nami because Oda-sensei said so who writes the manga. Case closed.
He did not say those words. Yes he said Usopp was the weakest at one point. Yet at another point he said Nami was the strongest strawhat. He could have
A. Not mentioned Nami because she wasn't even a fighter back when he did mention it
or
B. Contradicted himself by making Usopp have an obviously stronger body, which you yourself even admitted.! Class Dismissed
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Yeah it was because you're too dumb to look at it.
Again, you didn't even get the point of what I was saying.
He said it in the 10th anniversary when she was a fighter. It was during Sanji and Absalom's fights.
He said Nami was the strongest in an SBS in a joking manner. He said Usopp was the weakest in a serious manner in an interview.
Usopp has stronger body, it doesn't make him stronger than Nami.
Oda-sensei knows this and that's why he says Usopp is the weakest.
Author's word is Law. You can't go against it. If he says that's how it is, that's how it is.
End of discussion
BTW, you haven't apologized for butchering my quote and make it sound like I said something I didn't say or at least not completely.
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He said it in the 10th anniversary when she was a fighter.
I was talking about back in the time of the East Blue Saga before she had any "boss fights" yet
He said Usopp was the weakest in a serious manner in an interview.
Show me the live interview so that I may witness this dead pan serious tone in which you speak
Usopp has stronger body, it doesn't make him stronger than Nami.
Ooookkk? So Nami has a stronger soul then?
Oda-sensei knows this and that's why he says Usopp is the weakest.
Author's word is Law. You can't go against it. If he says that's how it is, that's how it is.
Unless they contradict themselves by making the character stronger.
BTW, you haven't apologized for butchering my quote and make it sound like I said something I didn't say or at least not completely.
Neither did you King of Fans
Especially for what you did in a certain other topic, which shall remain nameless.
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@Lobster:
I was talking about back in the time of the East Blue Saga before she had any "boss fights" yet
Yea but don't matter where you were talking about,he stated it during Thriller Bark so she had "boss fights"
@Lobster:Show me the live interview so that I may witness this dead pan serious tone in which you speak
You find it yourself if your so set on proving us wrong, why should we do all the work for you, who is being an ass about this all. We found out where it was stated, and what was stated.
@Lobster:Ooookkk? So Nami has a stronger soul then?
Who knows what makes her stronger, she just is. They have different fighting styles its impossible to determine where one shines over another.
@Lobster:Unless they contradict themselves by making the character stronger.
Yet we haven't had anything conclusive enough that is contradicting it yet, so he is fine.
