@Monkey:
It is so many people though that it is almost becoming accepted like a rumor.
We have very little to work with as of yet. Speculation is pretty much all we can do.
@Monkey:
We can't randomly assume things here.
Nor can we randomly assume that things are exactly as they appear. Until Oda begins to give us clear answers, nothing anyone says is anything more than speculation and should be taken as such.
@Monkey:
This still works under the assumption that Fishman Island is a bad place.
I never said anything about Fishman Island being a bad place in and of itself. What I did say was that, in many ways, they are trapped there. Ostensibly they can leave, but when you could be snatched up and sold at any moment after you do so, can you really be called free?
@Monkey:
I would think because they have a monarchy it is very very old.
We don't know how old the monarchy is. It is at least 200 years old, as that is when they officially joined the World Government, but so far as we know it could have been founded as a nation the Thursday before that… I doubt it, and 200 years is nothing to sneeze at, but the World Government has been around for much longer than it has had official relations with the Ryuugu Kingdom.
@Monkey:
There is no reason people in Fishman Island can't freely travel except for racism above. You are blaming the island for something it has nothing to do with.
I never blamed the island, nor the people living on it for the racism they endure. Rather, I feel that neither it nor they are really doing anything to help end that racism.
They essentially have three options: rage against their oppressors, maintain the status quo, or work towards resolving the conflict in a peaceful manner. All indications tell me that, with precious few exceptions, they have been leaning towards the first two.
The people of Fishman Island are not to blame for their suffering, but it is their responsibility to stand up for their rights. Their oppressors will not simply hand them over, when it is both less troublesome and more profitable to keep the fishmen under their heel.
@Monkey:
And just like you say, all cities have their ghettos. So why is this significant.
It's significant because you seem to presume that Fishman Island is some idyllic paradise, where people only encounter problems if they leave. This is simply not the case. Fishman Island is directly in the center of the primary unauthorized route to the New World and as such is a stopping point for any pirates who desire to go there, and not only those of good and decent morals. It has been stated that, in the time between the start of the Great Pirate Era and Whitebeard's territorial claim of the island, the island was in chaos, with pirates rampaging around doing as they pleased. Whitebeard put a stop to that, but he's gone now, and I think the two years since his death haven't been quite as peaceful as you seem to believe.
@Monkey:
It regained that force. That force which was only needed as of 20 or so years ago when the pirate age started. There is no suggestion that there was any problem before that.
You seem to take all the problems and blame it on the island for some reason.
You have yet to name one that is the fault of the island.
This isn't really a revolution, it's a coup since there does not appear to be popular support. And it is over dealing with racism.
The loss of Whitebeard's protection is a much larger issue than I think you realize. While they may not have needed it before the Great Pirate Era, they certainly did once it began and I don't think that it has somehow calmed down since then… On the contrary, Whitebeard's death has essentially given birth to the Second Great Pirate Era.
Perhaps nothing major has happened yet with regards to the resumption of predation on the populace of Fishman Island, but sooner or later it will... In fact, with Caribou on the loose, in many ways it already is. The threat of Whitebeard was enough to stop it, but Big Mom? Hodi and Jinbei (presuming they are both still around after this arc, not to mention agreed to work together on it)? I'm not so sure. And Luffy's still up-and-coming. He doesn't have the kind of pull and name-recognition that Whitebeard did as of yet.
Again, though, this is not something that is a flaw with the island, or its people. But it is something that I see to be a reality of the world they live in, and something that needs to be addressed. And it doesn't HAVE to be via Luffy reducing Fishman Island to rubble. The only reason that I even suggest it as a possibility is because of Madame Shirley's prediction, the viability and accuracy of which we can only guess at.
@Monkey:
No, not at all.
Again, absolutely none of this is any inherent flaw with the island whatsoever.
This is like saying Drum is a crappy place because of all they went through.
Nation's go through problems all the time, this does not mean they are inherently flawed.
Nations go through problems all the time and that by no means implies that they are inherently flawed… But when a country has a militant uprising, whether it is a popular revolution or a coup implemented by a small group, that realistically threatens to overturn its established government, I wouldn't call it stable either. The fact that Hodi is willing and able to attempt this coup shows that the Ryuugu Kingdom is in flux. Whether Hodi wins or is soundly defeated, the course the nation takes in the future will change.
@Monkey:
Again, how is this an inherent problem with Fishman Island.
Again, it's not. But when the unrest reaches a point of violence, something has to be done, whether the ultimate blame lies inside or out.
@Monkey:
So?
So do you think that Fishman Island would be better off if someone drilled another hole through the Red Line and they never had to come in contact with humans again?
@Monkey:
ughhh….you are starting on this talk again.
Don't use that phrase, it is very very offensive to me, it is naive as well.
To call a nation state a "security blanket". Tell this to the Irish, or the Croats.
Also you keep emphasizing an isolation that has never been suggested to really matter or be an issue. As long as travel is possible, it is not really isolation.
Some places are farther than others, that's not the end of any world.
I apologize if I offended you. It was not my intent.
But ultimately, I see the Fishman Dilemma as your standard trade-off between freedom and security. I look at Fishman Island and see security, but little freedom, even if the populace doesn't realize it for the most part. And what's more, I see that security dwindling.
@Monkey:
Do you actually know what goes on there? The people of those nations are all pretty well to do. It is the migrant workers from India and elsewhere who live very badly. They are in a state of limbo working the oil places and resorts.
There is again, zero suggesting any such social class at Fishman island.
You seem to be throwing anything and everything at this poor island lol.
All I meant was that a nation can seem well off without actually being well off. Economy plays a major factor in that, but is not the sole element.
Perhaps a better example would be Spain after its conquest of the Americas left it drowning in gold and silver so devalued that they were worth next to nothing? Or Italy under Mussolini and Germany under Hitler? ("Hey! Godwin's Law!" "…Dammit!") The Soviet Union under Stalin?
I say this not to imply King Neptune is a tyrant, but rather to say that what people see when looking at a nation from the outside is not always reflective of what is going on inside.
@Monkey:
If you are at the point of first world nations of real life not being good enough, the best we know, you have truly entered the realm of trying way too hard to paint this island badly. Would it have to be some utopia to never exist for you to finally approve? This is getting ridiculous.
Again, you seem to think I'm aiming my critique at the island itself. Rather it is the world the island finds itself in that I am critiquing. Were fishmen truly free to come and go as they pleased, I would see the island as a paradise. As it is, I see it as a gilded cage.
And if you think the US is without its problems, even as laughable as they may seem when compared to the issues facing other nations, I admire your optimism. We're better off than many, if not most, but we have our fair share of concerns as well, thank you very much, even setting aside the issues that the global economy causes for everyone.
@Monkey:
They are stuck, but it is in a nice place that is there's if nothing else.
The lack of freedom is bad, but that does not make the city bad, it is ridiculous.
Again, my issue is not with the city, but with the world it finds itself in.
@Monkey:
And explain to me why the city is at fault for a minority of extremists reacting to a history of racism from the world.
It isn't, but you can be sure that the World Government will punish them all the same. Fishmen are generalized by humans: painted with the same brush, as it were. The only way I can see to stop that is to make humans realize the fact that they are all individuals, which won't really happen unless they take the risk and mingle with the surface.
The issue at hand, as far as I'm concerned at least, is not whose to blame for the racism but how to put an end to it.
@Monkey:
Yes, a symptom of racism.
I agree.
@Monkey:
If they must be changed and struggled against by Luffy destroying something dear to them, then yes you are saying both of these.
:getlost:
@Monkey:
You are very much fooling yourself if you think Otohime's ideals were anti-Fishman Island.
If anything I'm sure she wanted to encourage the city to make peace with people above
Look even how it is that Jimbei described her ideas, make peace in the present for the future. Patience and endurance.
I never said Queen Otohime was anti-Fishman Island. I agree wholeheartedly with your view of her methods. I however, am of the belief that patience and endurance are not always enough. Suffer in silence and no one will ever know. Rather, they need to bring their plight to the attention of the world as a whole, or nothing will ever change.
Does this require the destruction of Fishman Island. Heavens, no. But it will never be accomplished if they stay largely cooped up at the bottom of the sea.
@Monkey:
And that is precisely why she was at odds with Fisher Tiger who wanted action.
The Queen and Fisher Tiger were at odds because Tiger was willing to use violent methods to achieve his goals, while Otohime was not. At least, that's how I understand it.
@Monkey:
Many many human societies throughout history. How do you think Polynesian peoples lived? They were certainly very very isolated.
And actually, maybe you are forgetting where it is that One Piece is from in the first place!
Clearly they can produce what they need, or are receiving enough in trade. This place has been here for at least 200 years you forget. And nothing suggests any population crisis. I do not think Oda would be worrying about population increase in his country of all places.
Fair enough.
But those nations who cooperate and trade with others have historically advanced much faster than those which did not. Maybe instead of stagnation, I should say that they will be left behind by the rest of the world. And eventually, if they are left behind, they will find that the rest of the world doesn't need or want anything they have to offer in trade… What happens then?
@Monkey:
Do they look envious to you??
Arlong does, though it only became apparent recently. That's the irony. He wants what he's told he can never have, equality with humans, and over time that sense of envy turns into hate and racism all its own. Why do they call his people inferior? Could it be because the humans themselves are the inferior ones and are trying to keep the fishmen from realizing it?
@Monkey:
And so why again is there anything wrong with the current island?
Nothing, save the psychological cage keeping them there. Again, the issue is not the island, but the world it is a part of.
@Monkey:
There really is absolutely no problem presented with physical isolation. It is not physical that is the problem. No one is worrying about things like economy and population. You are completely off the scent.
It is social isolation that is the issue. The inability to live among the world without hate and problems.
The social isolation is exacerbated by the physical one.
@Monkey:
No. It is not.
You do not turn to a country like Egypt that is having social unrest and revolution. And you do not say "hmm, apparently Egypt is a lousy place! See what happens when you live in Egypt?". Because that is not Egypt the physical place that is the problem. It is problems with the society and relations to other peoples like America and Israel.
Many years ago Egypt was a wonderful place. Maybe now it will become one again.
You are correct, but once again its not quite the same. Egypt is not hidden ten thousand meters below sea level. The social unrest and upheaval in Egypt took place in plain view of the rest of the world, while those taking place on Fishman Island are complicated by the fact that they are easily ignored by the World Government (at least until Hodi has his followers burn Mariejois to the ground or something). With Egypt, the rest of the world could exert pressure on Mubarak to help ensure the situation was resolved relatively peacefully. I can almost guarantee that the World Government couldn't care less what is currently happening on Fishman Island until it affects them directly.
@Monkey:
Why are you comparing a deliberate action of a man to natural disaster??
The drop of a nuclear weapon could have the same type of effect. Enel unleashing his lightning-bomb thingy (I forget what it was called) on Skypeia would have had a similar effect.
The point is that such things could happen; be it an intentional act of man, an accidental act of man, or an act of nature. And, as I have tried to state before, I am not advocating the destruction of Fishman Island, merely speculating on the effects such an event might have.
@Monkey:
You are operating on far more than quite a bit of what we don't know.
I am operating on what we have been told and what I perceive. I freely admit that I can be wrong, even wildly so, and have been known to misremember things, but I don't go out of my way to make things up wholecloth.
@Monkey:
So the island should be ruined for everyone? Why even would the ones who would like to move wish destruction on the island and forced relocation?
Again, the issue is not Fishman Island itself, but the current state of the world. Regardless of how it is achieved, the fishman race needs to make some strides toward equality, because it won't merely be handed to them in time. Those who desire to stay on Fishman Island should certainly be able to do so, but those who want to see the world have just as much right to leave and not suffer the persecution of humans for it.
@Monkey:
Sadly nothing. Forcing them has always proven far worse. Did you even read what it is that happened to my parent's home country?
When I say sadly, I don't mean "we should try to hurry this along," I mean "even at its fastest pace, this will take generations."
@Monkey:
I agree, now how exactly it that ethnic cleansing is then the solution I have no idea.
Firstly, its not ethnic cleansing. Secondly, it is not a solution. Rather, its a wake-up call of sorts, and by no means a preferred one. Fishmen are a part of the human world whether they want to be or not, but they've been largely content to remove themselves from worldly affairs and it has cost them dearly. Something needs to change in the way fishmen present themselves to the world, or the resentment of persons like Hodi and Arlong will fester until it bursts and provokes an unwinnable conflict with the World Government that will destroy everything their people have.
@Monkey:
What you are suggesting is tearing the leg clean off.
Again, I'm not suggesting it, merely viewing it as a possibility. But there are times when amputation is in the best interest of the patient, however unpleasant the prospect.
–-
On that note, I'm done for the night.