Shichibukai Discussion Thread

wolfwood

@kuma:

Out of all the Shichibukai which ones would you say were evil, There are the obvious two that come to mind Crocodile and DD. Those two are pretty deplorable human beings you can make an argument that BB is equally as deplorable as those two what you guys think.

Blacky honestly doesn't seem all that bad. For a villain that is.

Croc and Doffy both delight in being bastards. And go out of their way to make people suffer.

Kuma's title would suggest that he's also a monster, but we don't really know anything about it.

Nightwing

@kuma:

So when Kuma was masquerading as a pirate you think he had a crew or was he solo?

It's hard to say. I'd like to think he was riding around solo being a tyrant. Then he met Dragon and became a revolutionary.

RobZilla

@wolfwood:

Blacky honestly doesn't seem all that bad. For a villain that is.

Croc and Doffy both delight in being bastards. And go out of their way to make people suffer.

Kuma's title would suggest that he's also a monster, but we don't really know anything about it.

I like to think that Kuma went out of his way to be considered a Tyrant just to gain a bounty faster, putting himself on the WG's radar as a possible shichibukai.

All under Dragon's orders of course.

From what we've seen of Kuma it's hard to imagine him being a Tyrant famed for his cruelty in reality.

Palpitoad93

@kuma:

Why shouldn't they?

Because Law's feats have been far more impressive. One trashed two vice admirals. Another lost to pre-Gear 2 Luffy.

ZoroXTashigi

@Nightwing:

It's hard to say. I'd like to think he was riding around solo being a tyrant. Then he met Dragon and became a revolutionary.

I think he is one off Dragon early crew and become his right hand, we saw Kuma when Rev. Army go to West Blue (when sabo "died"). And i think Dragon ask him to become a pirate (Rev. Army) when Kuma is not a pirate in the first place. After he join with Rev. Army, he always travel alone to kill a bunch of bad pirate, this why he have nickname "tyrant" and WG ask him become a Shichibukai (this is one off Dragon plan). Or… after become a Shichibukai he always doing what WG ask to him with all out and then he has nickname "tyrant".

Light Bro

@Smiley:

I know you had good intentions with it but power level discussion is a time bomb in the making.
An example.

Which is why it would have been better to keep collateral damage in one thread! I would at least feel less insulted if mods had waited an actual flame war before closing it.

wolfwood

Maybe it's a case of the winner writing history.

Kuma held down a country that the WG wanted, and they ousted him, and painted him as this vicous tyrant.

Before or after which Kuma joined forces with the revolutionaries.

RobZilla

@wolfwood:

Maybe it's a case of the winner writing history.

Kuma held down a country that the WG wanted, and they ousted him, and painted him as this vicous tyrant.

Before or after which Kuma joined forces with the revolutionaries.

True, all we have to go on is that Kuma did hate the WG and at some point joined up with Dragon before becoming a Shichibukai and then human weapon.

Loads of plausible ways to tie those strands together.

wolfwood

One could argue that there has to be some sort of huge loss in his life prior to this.

As his acceptance of losing his humanity would suggest that he has nothing more to lose.

Nightwing

@wolfwood:

One could argue that there has to be some sort of huge loss in his life prior to this.

As his acceptance of losing his humanity would suggest that he has nothing more to lose.

This is the most probable theory I've read yet. A lot of people thought it had to do with Sabo. Possibly going along with the Vegapunk deal because he was captured or something. Too far-fetched imo. But, I like the idea of him having a great tragedy in his past.

@ZoroXTashigi:

I think he is one off Dragon early crew and become his right hand, we saw Kuma when Rev. Army go to West Blue (when sabo "died"). And i think Dragon ask him to become a pirate (Rev. Army) when Kuma is not a pirate in the first place. After he join with Rev. Army, he always travel alone to kill a bunch of bad pirate, this why he have nickname "tyrant" and WG ask him become a Shichibukai (this is one off Dragon plan). Or… after become a Shichibukai he always doing what WG ask to him with all out and then he has nickname "tyrant".

Took me awhile to decipher this. But I'm along the lines of Wolfwood's theory. I just can't see him as a blood-thirsty pirate. Even in his past, I couldn't imagine such a rapid change in personality.

Thebomer93

@Palpitoad93:

Because Law's feats have been far more impressive. One trashed two vice admirals. Another lost to pre-Gear 2 Luffy.

Yeah but one them VA was Smoker and he's nothing more than a jobber these days, and yes luffy ultimately beat croc by exposing his plans, but in an actually fight there can be arguments to make that he is in fact unbeaten against Luffy.

Spam286

@kuma:

Yeah but one them VA was Smoker and he's nothing more than a jobber these days, and yes luffy ultimately beat croc by exposing his plans, but in an actually fight there can be arguments to make that he is in fact unbeaten against Luffy.

I don't see how you could make that claim. Sure Luffy should have died thrice during their fight, but I don't see how that invalidates Croc's final pummelling. He got well and truly knocked out. He was arrested because he was out cold, and that was all Luffy.

Thebomer93

@Spam286:

I don't see how you could make that claim. Sure Luffy should have died thrice during their fight, but I don't see how that invalidates Croc's final pummelling. He got well and truly knocked out. He was arrested because he was out cold, and that was all Luffy.

But if Luffy didn't have help he would have died (I know if my aunty had balls she'd be my uncle and all that) while Croc would have only been knocked out he would of won that fight by default. Like I said earlier Croc ultimately lost because his plans were exposed and he lost his title, but am just talking about the fights 1 on 1 I think you can make an arguments that he's undefeated against luffy.

Russbuspower

It's hard for me to believe that Kuma was an atual tyrant. Just look at the other revolutionaries revealed so far, they all seem to be very helpful people (Inazuma, Ivankov). Also, I doubt that Dragon would commission Kuma to kill people for no reason to gain a tyrant/SB title, this would make the revolutionaries no different than the WG they are trying to destroy. Then again, we don't know much about Dragon yet. Though he seemed pretty nice when he saved civilians and Sabo at Grey Terminal.

Spam286

@kuma:

But if Luffy didn't have help he would have died (I know if my aunty had balls she'd be my uncle and all that) while Croc would have only been knocked out he would of won that fight by default. Like I said earlier Croc ultimately lost because his plans were exposed and he lost his title, but am just talking about the fights 1 on 1 I think you can make an arguments that he's undefeated against luffy.

I don't buy that. If you're looking at the overall then sure, but if you're looking at the overall then you could say without being in the middle of a desert Croc would have lost, or if he had never eaten the suna suna no mi in the first place he would have lost, or if Luffy had known the weakness of his fruit from the start etc. etc. If you look at each encounter individually though, Luffy won the last one fair and square.

wolfwood

That's a thought. People often rip on Moria for using the zombies and getting unfair advantages.

But Croc holing up in the one place where he is most powerful? That's not getting an advantage or anything.

Thebomer93

@Spam286:

I don't buy that. If you're looking at the overall then sure, but if you're looking at the overall then you could say without being in the middle of a desert Croc would have lost, or if he had never eaten the suna suna no mi in the first place he would have lost, or if Luffy had known the weakness of his fruit from the start etc. etc. If you look at each encounter individually though, Luffy won the last one fair and square.

That's like me turning round to you and saying oh the only reason Luffy beat Lucci was because he had his devil fruit, without it Lucci would have beaten him easy. The fact is Croc did have a powerful fruit and it just so happens they are fighting were he has the advantage not his fault he still had to beat Luffy which he did twice(three if you're been technical) As for the third fight there are two ways to look at it others may say "yeah he beat him fair and square you Croc fanboys sit down and shut up", Others may say "hold on didn't Robin help him out therefore Croc wins by default". Am in the latter camp I think Croc is technically undefeated against luffy sorry for rant not having a go at you mate.

RobZilla

@kuma:

That's like me turning round to you and saying oh the only reason Luffy beat Lucci was because he had his devil fruit, without it Lucci would have beaten him easy. The fact is Croc did have a powerful fruit and it just so happens they are fighting were he has the advantage not his fault he still had to beat Luffy which he did twice(three if you're been technical) As for the third fight there are two ways to look at it others may say "yeah he beat him fair and square you Croc fanboys sit down and shut up", Others may say "hold on didn't Robin help him out therefore Croc wins by default". Am in the latter camp I think Croc is technically undefeated against luffy sorry for rant not having a go at you mate.

Crocodile can't be considered undefeated against Luffy, since we actually saw him lose.

The fact that Luffy's win and continued survival was aided by several fortunate recoveries and sheer determination puts an asterisk over Luffy's win, but it's still a win.

Spam286

@kuma:

That's like me turning round to you and saying oh the only reason Luffy beat Lucci was because he had his devil fruit, without it Lucci would have beaten him easy. The fact is Croc did have a powerful fruit and it just so happens they are fighting were he has the advantage not his fault he still had to beat Luffy which he did twice(three if you're been technical) As for the third fight there are two ways to look at it others may say "yeah he beat him fair and square you Croc fanboys sit down and shut up", Others may say "hold on didn't Robin help him out therefore Croc wins by default". Am in the latter camp I think Croc is technically undefeated against luffy sorry for rant not having a go at you mate.

Oh I see, you're counting Robin providing the antidote for the poison as interference preventing a draw? Yeah okay, I can see that. I guess it depends where you call the end of the fight. If it's as soon as Croc goes down then it's Luffy's win no question. If not then it's a technical draw and Croc's undefeated.

Either way you're certainly right that just saying 'Luffy beat Croc pre-EL power up' as a determiner of Croc's strength is stupid.

Thebomer93

@RobZilla:

Crocodile can't be considered undefeated against Luffy, since we actually saw him lose.

The fact that Luffy's win and continued survival was aided by several fortunate recoveries and sheer determination puts an asterisk over Luffy's win, but it's still a win.

Well it depends on how you look at it am just talking about it in the contents of the 3rd fight man to man, sure we saw Luffy knocking Croc out, put didn't Croc manage to poison luffy in the fight would it be fair to say if he didn't have help he would have died from that poison death VS unconscious how would you judge who the winner was from that. But like spam 286 says that ultimately doesn't matter because in the end luffy did win and gave Croc a complete defeat and for a small time crushed him, plus others have said even without Robin luffy would have won as he always had Chopper to help him so in the end am just talking crap as usual.

God of Skypeia

@Light:

Which is why it would have been better to keep collateral damage in one thread! I would at least feel less insulted if mods had waited an actual flame war before closing it.

I actually liked the general fighting thread, but I guess I was being to hopeful, and also if the mods care so much about retarded discussions in which people use their preference for a character as "evidence" for he/she being stronger than another character.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@RobZilla:

I like to think that Kuma went out of his way to be considered a Tyrant just to gain a bounty faster, putting himself on the WG's radar as a possible shichibukai.

All under Dragon's orders of course.

From what we've seen of Kuma it's hard to imagine him being a Tyrant famed for his cruelty in reality.

I imagine the title came for the presumption of when he sent people flying that he disintegrated them.

Fragments

@kuma:

What about DD he's got some good feats under his belt.

Doflamingo hasn't gone all out and Law doesn't know how to New World works.

It's all a guessing game.

Thebomer93

@Fragments:

Doflamingo hasn't gone all out and Law doesn't know how to New World works.

It's all a guessing game.

exactly DD hasn't gone all out yet he still beat Smoker and law not bad.

Fragments

@kuma:

exactly DD hasn't gone out yet he still beat Smoker and law not bad.

Doflamingo won't be alive next 100 chapters while Smoker will make it to the end.. Law has some development but not sure not looking good.

Only 2 Shichubukai timeskip so far that haven't had complete character development.

Thebomer93

@Fragments:

Doflamingo won't be alive next 100 chapters while Smoker will make it to the end.. Law has some development but not sure not looking good.

Only 2 Shichubukai timeskip so far that haven't had complete character development.

Mate DD will be alive in the next 200 charters I really don't see Oda killing him off.

RobZilla

@Fragments:

Doflamingo won't be alive next 100 chapters while Smoker will make it to the end.. Law has some development but not sure not looking good.

Only 2 Shichubukai timeskip so far that haven't had complete character development.

What would killing Doflamingo achieve that a simple defeat for him wouldn't?

He will not be killed off. Not a chance.

BroBro

@wolfwood:

That's a thought. People often rip on Moria for using the zombies and getting unfair advantages.

But Croc holing up in the one place where he is most powerful? That's not getting an advantage or anything.

I actually thought using zombies was pretty clever. I just don't get the hate. I hope he will get redemption in the future.

!

Thebomer93

@BroBro:

I actually thought using zombies was pretty clever. I just don't get the hate. I hope he will get redemption in the future.

! http://i44.tinypic.com/2nitzr4.jpg

I don't have a crystal ball or anything but I think it safe to say we'll see him again, we.ve already seen Absalom or at least him leaving in a ship so Moriah return shouldn't be to far away.

RobZilla

Moria is pretty much a certainty to appear and get his redemption around the time the SH's finally fight Kaido.

A flashback of Moria's crew being massacred would be pretty cool.

Carmilla

@RobZilla:

Moria is pretty much a certainty to appear and get his redemption around the time the SH's finally fight Kaido.

A flashback of Moria's crew being massacred would be pretty cool.

And Moria's fighting style without relying on others :happy:

RobZilla

@Carmilla:

And Moria's fighting style without relying on others :happy:

I really want him to fight in tandem with Doppleman with some awesome tag team moves…is that too much to ask?

.access timeco.

Posting just to say that only now I saw it's Moria in kuma fanny avatar. I always thought I was looking at a black baboon's face (don't look at it directly and you'll get what I mean).

BroBro

@RobZilla:

I really want to fight in tandem with Doppleman with some awesome tag team moves…is that too much to ask?

I never thought of this and now i'm fangasm to that idea. I hope Oda delivers this.

RobZilla

@BroBro:

I never thought of this and now i'm fangasm to that idea. I hope Oda delivers this.

Haha yeah man I thought about this a little while ago, I really want to see it.

As far as his character goes, I think Moria will probably be the easiest villain Oda's ever had to redeem, with his tragic past.

BroBro

@RobZilla:

Haha yeah man I thought about this a little while ago, I really want to see it.

As far as his character goes, I think Moria will probably be the easiest villain Oda's ever had to redeem, with his tragic past.

Yeah we need that flashback as much as we need Law's flashback with DD. I wonder if some of the zombies in Thriller Bark was his former crew. Well, not the famous zombies like Ryuuma or Captain John of course.

RobZilla

@BroBro:

Yeah we need that flashback as much as we need Law's flashback with DD. I wonder if some of the zombies in Thriller Bark was his former crew. Well, not the famous zombies like Ryuuma or Captain John of course.

Nah I don't think he retained the corpses of his old crew for his new one.

You saw Moria's change in demeanour just thinking about the NW and his defeat to Kaido. I think he tries to not think about his past at all costs, which is why he started an entirely new scheme on Thriller Bark.

.access timeco.

Not a Shichibukai, but I think Oda needs to give Enel a flashback more than anyone else - and I think this will somehow come through Urouge (if he really turns out to be a bilkan). This wingless guy simply came out of nowhere with his god complex, followers who actually saw him as god, after destroying his motherland wihout any panel showing it and with a knowledge that no one else in Skypiea had.

God of Skypeia

@.access:

Not a Shichibukai, but I think Oda needs to give Enel a flashback more than anyone else - and I think this will somehow come through Urouge (if he really turns out to be a Blkan). This wingless guy simply came out of nowhere with his god complex, followers who actually saw him as god, after destroying his motherland without any panel showing it and with a knowledge that no one else in Skypiea had.

I imagine his ascent to godhood came after he first ate the Goro Goro no mi and he realized that he was stronger than everyone on his island, and then when he learnt of the Fairy Vearth he decided that was the only place he would feel at home as a "God." He realized Skypeia had gold he could use to fund his building of his flying machine, and decided the best way to utilize such power was to become "God."

Fragments

@kuma:

Mate DD will be alive in the next 200 charters I really don't see Oda killing him off.

@RobZilla:

What would killing Doflamingo achieve that a simple defeat for him wouldn't?

He will not be killed off. Not a chance.

No after this arc Doflamingo has no story revelance which is why he will die.

Thebomer93

@Fragments:

No after this arc Doflamingo has no story revelance which is why he will die.

You could have said the same thing for Crocodile when he was beat, he had no more story relevance so why not kill him off. Only Oda knows for sure what relevance a character will have and I think DD will still have relevance when he's beat . I see no reason what so ever why he would kill DD off.

Fragments

@kuma:

You could have said the same thing for Crocodile when he was beat, he had no more story relevance so why not kill him off. Only Oda knows for sure what relevance a character will have and I think DD will still have relevance when he's beat . I see no reason what so ever why he would kill DD off.

Crocodiles past and his role isn't done yet there's a difference you can't compare those two because they aren't the same.

Everything about Doflamingo is going to get revelaed this arc. He isn't needed for Kaido because it's already a easy next step he isn't needed for that.

Underground has multiple people not just him so not needed.

His ties to the WG isn't imporant like Sengoku and Garp who have keys more insight about WG.

After his defeat his role is over playing character favorites is fun but you have to realize every character has a role and have a timeframe when their time is up and Doflamingos is when Dressrosa arc ends.

.access timeco.

One Piece doesn't work like that. In other manga characters are killed when their purpose is over, in One Piece they only die if their deaths has a purpose.

Whackadoodle

@Fragments:

No after this arc Doflamingo has no story revelance which is why he will die.

Reasons Oda has killed characters:

1. Importance of their death to the story

Reasons Oda has never killed a character:

1. They are no longer relevant to the story

As for "no longer relevant to the story", you really shouldn't be making claims to that effect, particularly regarding major characters like arc villains. Numerous characters whose relevance seemed to have faded into the past have come back to play relevant roles later. You don't know where the story is going, or who will be relevant again (or why!).

TheCrystalShip

I can't think of a single villain besides Kuro and Don Krieg who lost relevance to the story.

Fragments

@Whackadoodle:

Reasons Oda has killed characters:

1. Importance of their death to the story

Reasons Oda has never killed a character:

1. They are no longer relevant to the story

As for "no longer relevant to the story", you really shouldn't be making claims to that effect, particularly regarding major characters like arc villains. Numerous characters whose relevance seemed to have faded into the past have come back to play relevant roles later. You don't know where the story is going, or who will be relevant again (or why!).

His purpose is up and every character don't get the same reappearance.

Big Mom showed up and Kaido will likely follow.

Doflamingo will get killed when the arc ends quote me on this.

King Cannon

@.access:

One Piece doesn't work like that. In other manga characters are killed when their purpose is over, in One Piece they only die if their deaths has a purpose.

With this in mind, I don't see any of the Emperors making it alive until the end.

Gold

What about those poor random marines sneaking away at Marinford who Akainu turned into ashe?

Relevent characters don't die easily, but I could maybe see more people dying in the harsher new world I guess. Hody is also a villain with little chance of redemption also aka dead

Ordinary

@Gold:

Hody is also a villain with little chance of redemption also aka dead

Or maybe he's just sent to Impel Down and never seen again.

Whackadoodle

@Fragments:

Doflamingo will get killed when the arc ends quote me on this.

If you're still around at that point, I'll try to remember to quote you when the next arc starts and Doflamingo is still alive, like every single named character in the present of the story whose status has been concretely established, except for Ace, Whitebeard, Smiley, and the Tsumegeri Guards… each of whom died for specific story-advancing reasons. For fuck's sake, Pell survived; if you really think a character as built-up as Doflamingo will die "because he's no longer relevant to the story" after Pell's survival…

@Gold:

Hody is also a villain with little chance of redemption also aka dead

But he's not dead. He may be out of the story, but he's alive and being held in the Ryugu kingdom's jail. This was concretely established, because Oda doesn't like killing characters. He'll only kill for story-necessary reasons (or, for minor characters, leave their fates uncertain, but with the implication that they died).

Fragments

@Whackadoodle:

If you're still around at that point, I'll try to remember to quote you when the next arc starts and Doflamingo is still alive, like every single named character in the present of the story whose status has been concretely established, except for Ace, Whitebeard, Smiley, and the Tsumegeri Guards… each of whom died for specific story-advancing reasons. For fuck's sake, Pell survived; if you really think a character as built-up as Doflamingo will die "because he's no longer relevant to the story" after Pell's survival…

2 complete different characters that have nothing in common.

Might as well say Sengoku and Garp will be alive when One Piece ends since Oda doesn't like killing off characters.