Think about it from the aftermath perspective. Luffy now knows all he has to do is be wet and/or bloody and Croc is pie. No knowledge of Luffy's will make Lucci any less dangerous an opponent.
I guess you are ignoring the fact that Water Luffy lost against Crocodile. Ok, Luffy might have won in the end. But round 2 proves that it requires more to defeat Crocodile then just knowing his DF's weakness, since his basic combat skills were also good enough to defeat Luffy.
itachi is much better gaylord
In b4 the ban ^ 
That was fun while it lasted.
I guess you are ignoring the fact that Water Luffy lost against Crocodile. Ok, Luffy might have won in the end. But round 2 proves that it requires more to defeat Crocodile then just knowing his DF's weakness, since his basic combat skills were also good enough to defeat Luffy.
To me, round 2 proved that the liquid method worked as long as he used it wisely. He was careless because he thought it was instant win, and Croc proved that there is more than just his DF. I mean, I know what you are saying and I agree more or less ~~ but my point was that Lucci is a stronger and more difficult opponent because he has no real weaknesses. Whereas Croc's primary strength, if exploited, becomes his greatest weakness.
To me, round 2 proved that the liquid method worked as long as he used it wisely. He was careless because he thought it was instant win, and Croc proved that there is more than just his DF. I mean, I know what you are saying and I agree more or less ~~ but my point was that Lucci is a stronger and more difficult opponent because he has no real weaknesses. Whereas Croc's primary strength, if exploited, becomes his greatest weakness.
I agree with that statement, since Rucchi was all about physical combat strenght. It just that people are mostly like "water > Crocodile" which going by facts simply is not the case. But since I now see that this is not what you were trying to say I guess it's all fine.^^
Lucci was a pimp and have a suite. That's enough! But still… Hand2Hand-combat is still the best art of fighting.
I liked Lucci in terms of villainy, but not necessarily as a character- then again, I guess he didn't have any character outside of being a villain, lol!. Anyway, I liked him because it seemed as if he was truly Luffy's antithesis and equal in physical ability. Luffy was always a happy go lucky guy who helped people just because. Not out of obligation or anything. Just the same, Lucci hurt people just because. Both did it under the guise of 'organizations' that they didn't really fit stereotypically (Lucci under the WG, and Luffy as a pirate, though the WG is supposed to be full of honest and just people, and pirates are supposedly the scum of the Earth).
Luffy fought to protect his friends. Lucci constantly threw in Luffy's face that he was going to kill them all after he finished with Luffy during their fight. Luffy was always so cheerful and goofy, and Lucci was always so cunning and stoic.
But even better than their parallels was their fight… Holy crap, I didn't even think a fight could be so awesome! Another parallel was the fact that Luffy was free form and Lucci was a student of a focused and well learned set of martial arts. Anyway, for the first time in One Piece, Luffy fought a foe that didn't have a gimmicky ability (Wapol, Mr. 3) or an incredible cheap power (Crocodile, Enel) and was actually matched, or even bested, in physical power. Arlong, Kuro, and Krieg were physical fighters, but Luffy kind of stomped all over them. Lucci took everything Luffy had and dished out more. Without Gears, Luffy wouldn't have won his fight against Lucci. I think that's why I really appreciated Lucci. His villainy matched perfectly with the overtones of Luffy's heroism and the ending to his arc was more than amazing.
The resolution of the W7 plot at Bakaburg's mansion was a pretty strong scene. Lucci was the guy who stood at the center of it. That's just gotta earn you some fans. Of course it only went downhill from that point on but who cares :D
Yibis One Piece Fansubs
I
Lucci FACTS:
1. Lucci is a mammal.
2. Lucci fights ALL the time.
3. The purpose of Lucci is to flip out and kill people.
I felt a disturbance in the Force.
Upon inspection, I found that it was because nobody had quoted this.
But what some other guy said was right: he kills people with a finger. And I think there is a certain awesomeness in the fact that he is government sponsored, even though he is so much worse than most villains in One Piece.
**Rokushiki
I think it's because people can like whatever they want. In any case, I don't particularly care for him.
Quoted for truth.
Crocodile didn't give Luffy a hard fight physically, so much as he had an invulnerability Luffy had to overcome. Two losses and one win, where the win was a victory with him still able to stand and carry two people out of a collapsing building simultaneously. It may have been hard in the sense that he was a tough opponent to find the weakness to, but Lucci was a hard opponent in sheer power and ability. Luffy had to overcome his strength and skill, not his weakness or invulnerability. So I think it is fair to say Luffy getting practically defeated and barely able to stand until the end, was his hardest yet.
Think about it from the aftermath perspective. Luffy now knows all he has to do is be wet and/or bloody and Croc is pie. No knowledge of Luffy's will make Lucci any less dangerous an opponent.
You can say Lucci gave Luffy a tough time physically, but not the hardest fight overall, That goes to Croc.
You can say Lucci gave Luffy a tough time physically, but not the hardest fight overall, That goes to Croc.
I disagree. I think most people assume that Croc was his hardest fight because he lost to him twice before winning, but the problem with that is that there was more than one fight. He didn't have the hardest "fight", but rather Croc was one of Luffy's most difficult opponents to defeat. When you think of it that way, both Smoker and Aokiji stand even further above Croc due to their abilities. The difference between them and Croc, however, is that Croc stood in Luffy's way and Luffy was forced to do something about it and come up on top ~~ so he had to find a weakness to win. The fight that he did win was not that difficult a win though, as he already had exploited the weakness and found an unstoppable way of using it…giving him an impressive win.
Lucci, on the other hand, defeated Luffy once by sheer power when Luffy was not quite prepared to give his all. After eating food and gaining his resolve, Luffy came back at full power prepared to wipe the floor with Lucci. We all know that is not what happened though, as Luffy fought with all his might and only won by a hair, leaving him unable to move and on the floor multiple times before he finally made the finishing assault and collapsing. To me, that is a hard fight. Not losing because of a handicap a few times and then winning once the playing ground has evened out.
I disagree. I think most people assume that Croc was his hardest fight because he lost to him twice before winning, but the problem with that is that there was more than one fight. He didn't have the hardest "fight", but rather Croc was one of Luffy's most difficult opponents to defeat. If you think of it that way, than Smoker stands above even that, or Aokiji. Since they are both Logia's that Luffy lost to or thinks he cannot fight. The difference between them and Croc, however, is that Croc stood in Luffy's way and Luffy was forced to do something about it ~~ so he had to find a weakness to win. The fight that he did win was not that difficult a win though, as he already had exploited the weakness and found an unstoppable way to use it…giving him an impressive win.
Lucci, on the other hand, defeated Luffy once by sheer power when Luffy was not quite prepared to give his all. After eating food and gaining his resolve, Luffy came back at full power prepared to wipe the floor with Lucci. We all know that is not what happened though, as Luffy fought with all his might and only won by a hair, leaving him unable to move and on the floor multiple times before he finally made the finishing assault and collapsing. To me, that is a hard fight. Not losing because of a handicap a few times and then winning once the playing ground has evened out.
Croc almost killed Luffy twice, when Luffy had his weakness also…..Heck even the 3rd fight Luffy would have died if it was not for Robin IIRC. Until some one else almost kills Luffy that many times, I'll say Corc gave him the hardest fight.
Croc almost killed Luffy twice, when Luffy had his weakness also…..Heck even the 3rd fight Luffy would have died if it was not for Robin IIRC. Until some one else almost kills Luffy that many times, I'll say Croc gave him the hardest fight.
Robin saved him with the antidote, yes, but does that really count? I suppose it might. Either way, my point still stands that multiple fights (plural) != 'hardest fight' (singular). And as he lost the first two because he couldn't counter Croc's ability well enough, he lost pretty quickly.
I think we should probably just drop this and agree we view things differently, but I have one more thing to say:
I thought about this initially in an RPG boss battle sort of sense. If I had a boss battle because I equipped the wrong items / armor and lost horribly a few times I would think "Jeez this is hard". If I then realized, "Hey! I have some equipment that totally counters this boss", and then equipped it and won with quite a bit of HP left I would think that it wasn't really as hard as I thought. On the other hand, if I came absolutely prepared with my strongest armor and weapons only to be barely winning by my last bit of HP and potions no matter what I did ~~ I would say that was my hardest boss battle.
^^That was the mindset I approached the topic with. Maybe that will help you understand where I am coming from, and that I am a big nerd!
First time against Croc luffy wasn't thinking clearly and kept doing the same thing over and over again.
2nd time he lost because its not exactly easy to fight with a big donkey kong style fludd pack hindering your movements.
3rd fight, Croc was on the defensive hoping Luffy would fall to the poison before he sustained too much damage.
RPG analogy fits perfectly. Croc was only hard because he went at it the wrong way twice and then was only almost killed by Hax poison after whooping his ass in round 3. Up against Lucci Luffy brought out his A-game and like Brennex said only one by a hair.
Actually i'll take it one step further and say he only won because of Lucci's arrogance. Zero reason Lucci couldn't have dodged the first Gear 3, he decided to take the hit and thus sustain damage that crippled him for the rest of the fight.
When the only reason you win fight is because of your opponent made a critical mistake and you still barely win then thats the sign of a truly difficult fight.
I disagree. I think most people assume that Croc was his hardest fight because he lost to him twice before winning, but the problem with that is that there was more than one fight. He didn't have the hardest "fight", but rather Croc was one of Luffy's most difficult opponents to defeat. When you think of it that way, both Smoker and Aokiji stand even further above Croc due to their abilities. The difference between them and Croc, however, is that Croc stood in Luffy's way and Luffy was forced to do something about it and come up on top ~~ so he had to find a weakness to win. The fight that he did win was not that difficult a win though, as he already had exploited the weakness and found an unstoppable way of using it…giving him an impressive win.
Lucci, on the other hand, defeated Luffy once by sheer power when Luffy was not quite prepared to give his all. After eating food and gaining his resolve, Luffy came back at full power prepared to wipe the floor with Lucci. We all know that is not what happened though, as Luffy fought with all his might and only won by a hair, leaving him unable to move and on the floor multiple times before he finally made the finishing assault and collapsing. To me, that is a hard fight. Not losing because of a handicap a few times and then winning once the playing ground has evened out.
To me, a hard fight equals effort. Luffy never put as much into a fight as he did with Lucci and Crocodile.
Lucci provides another nice reinforcement of One Piece's themes.
Unlike most of the Straw Hats, we see that Lucci's childhood was completely without a positive role-model (no Shanks, Bellemere, Zeff, Dr. Hiruluk, Jaguar or Tom for Lucci). Instead he was raised by what is the current arch-enemy of One Piece, The World Government.
So I think part of his appeal is the sense that "if he'd be brought up proper" he could have been a Straw Hat, the sadness of his situation - emotionless weapon for the government - and that he could be, like so many villains in One Piece, redeemable.
While I can see where brennen.exe is comming from I agree with Jinbei that Croc was a harder fight. Not in terms of combat ability Luffy had to display but in terms of pushing Luffy's will to a whole new level. Croc basically killed him three times (impaled and left to quick sand in the desert, dried him out at the palace and poisoned him in the catacombs) but despite that Luffy kept coming back. This whole development had the "no matter what you do to me, I will win and afterwards I'm ok to die" vibe to it which had his climax in the statement "I WILL SURPASS YOU".
The Rucchi fight on the other hand didn't have the same extent in this field. Rucchi only "killed" Luffy once in the mansion when he impaled him at the same spot Croc did (only to throw him away like Croc did). But other than that there weren't two more "death's" Luffy had to overcome. One might argue that Gear 2nd is eating away Luffy's life just as was the poison but it doesn't come from Rucchi but from Luffy himself. Furthermore he used it against Blueno first so it's not like it's something exclusive to Rucchi.
But when it comes down to it, the entire thing really depends on personal understanding of what makes a tough fight. But arguments for Rucchi and Crocodile are valid so it's not like there's one absolute truth here. Just had to throw in some little tidbits about the Croc fight I felt needed to be said.^^
Yep, the 9.3 % of the Rucci fans that like him for the ub3r hard fight he gave Ruffy will probably still think so even if you provide an analysis of truly hard fights that proves croc was even more ub3r.
Yibis One Piece Fansubs
edit: I also like cats a lot.
Yibis One Piece Fansubs
Let's base who Luffy had a harder fight based on how many days he slept after each of the two fights :P
After the Croc fight poison etc, Luffy wakes up in 3 days.
After the Lucci fight, Garp woke Luffy (on the 3rd day right?)
So…both fights were equal?!!?
Btw, I like Lucci because he is the first opponent in a long time to be a pure strength vs strength fight for Luffy.
Actually, Luffy slept for a week after fighting Lucci.
As dumb a basis that is to use, I feel a need to correct you Luffy Batter.
The time between Merry's funeral, Garp's arrival and him waking Luffy up was actually two days; chapter 431 states it as such. So even in that Crocodile beats out Lucci.
Anyway regarding the actual topic; people will like whatever characters they like. You can't fault anyone for taste, even bad taste.
I think Luffys hardest fight was against Oz and Moria, but Luffy was lucky that his damage was moved to Zoro.
As dumb a basis that is to use, I feel a need to correct you Luffy Batter.
The time between Merry's funeral, Garp's arrival and him waking Luffy up was actually two days; chapter 431 states it as such. So even in that Crocodile beats out Lucci.
Anyway regarding the actual topic; people will like whatever characters they like. You can't fault anyone for taste, even bad taste.
Really? I was sure it was a week.
Whatever, like you said, it's dumb to base how hard a fight is from that anyway.
Personally, I'm in the bandwagon of Lucci giving the harder fight since Luffy had to resort to gears and still barely won when he didn't need them for Croc. But like people said, it's all about a matter of taste of what people view as a tough fight and will only end up in circles so it's not worth discussing.
I really think you can't say you dislike Lucci based on his non-personality. He's an assassin they usually don't have one. Actually Kaku should be ridiculed for not acting like an assassin and was to smiley. I'm not like a Lucci fan boy but it's stupid to say he has no personality when most characters like him don't usually.
On the whole harder fight I must say it's a tie but not a tie. Technically people think Croc was harder because Luffy kept losing and was almost killed. Luffy wasn't prepared the first fight so that doesn't count and in the second one he did lose. Those fights with Croc were to me not as hard as Lucci's fights.
In Lucci's fight you can say Luffy had to use his gears so he's tougher. Well Luffy didn't have gears fighting Croc so you can't count that. Luffy was though IMO destroyed by Lucci but won because of luck.
So really it's everyone's opinion till one day theres an SBS question.
Not in terms of combat ability Luffy had to display but in terms of pushing Luffy's will to a whole new level. Croc basically killed him three times (impaled and left to quick sand in the desert, dried him out at the palace and poisoned him in the catacombs) but despite that Luffy kept coming back.
Yeah, I agree with all of this. Like I was saying, I was determining it from the point of a single battle rather than the overall struggle against the enemy. IE: Croc and Luffy's final battle (vs.) Lucci and Luffy's final battle; where Lucci's left Luffy barely winning by a hair and as good as dead on the floor. Everything else, Croc holds the title.
Merry's Funeral
Chapter 430. Sniffle. Gets me every time. Oh snap, I'm crying at work!!
So even in that Crocodile beats out Lucci.
Not so. Luffy was punched awake. But I agree, it doesn't matter and is silly to argue.
Yep, the 9.3 % of the Rucci fans that like him for the ub3r hard fight he gave Ruffy will probably still think so even if you provide an analysis of truly hard fights that proves croc was even more ub3r.
I loved the CP9 arc. Lucci I didn't care for that much, but I did think he was pretty cool in appearance and power. But I couldn't wait for Luffy to K.O. Lucci at the end, in a down with the villain sort of way. I am not a fan.
edit: I hate cats. They piss on stuff and it smells real bad.
Croc was harder to fight cuz he was a logia and Luffy didn't know his weakness at first. But then he beats him clean. Imagine him using Gear 2 against Croc after realizing his water weakness. Croc = KO. He and Enel could barely take Luffy's base attacks. And Lucci laughed about them.
So this is becoming a Lucci vs. Croc thread now? :/
I hope not^^ -.-
@Mr.:
So this is becoming a Lucci vs. Croc thread now? :/
No. I think we shut the door on that discussion already. The argument was valid for the topic, since it was concerning a major reason some liked Lucci (according to Elric).
Personally, I am surprised this thread made it this far. Was Lucci even liked when he was first introduced in the manga??
I wouldn't say this thread is becoming Lucci vs Croc… more like "who is the best villain" but that's natural when discussing and comparing the most popular villain's
But like people said, it's all about a matter of taste of what people view as a tough fight and will only end up in circles so it's not worth discussing.
What I stated had more to do character-wise, personality, look, etc.
If we're talking fight-wise, Luffy's toughest opponent was Crocodile.
During Luffy vs. Lucci, Gear 2nd's first use overwhelmed Lucci by a decent amount. Only by using Life Return later on in the match to speed himself up did Lucci manage to match Luffy in terms of speed, and even then it was at a cost of strength. Which is why just before the last Rokougan Lucci reverted back to his normal hybrid zoan form to use the move at it's strongest. In addition to that, Gear 3rd managed to knock Lucci completely unconscious. Frankly he was lucky that the Buster Call ship was at that spot otherwise he'd have drowned in the ocean.
Don't get me wrong, it's a fact that Lucci gave Luffy a hell of a fight. Up until then no other opponent was a match for Luffy in terms of physical strength, and that's why I think people like to label it as Luffy's most difficult fight but that just isn't the case.
Was Lucci even liked when he was first introduced in the manga??
When the Galley-La shipwrights were first introduced, the one's people were clamoring over most were Kaku and Paulie, at least in this forum. Lucci was more in the middle I guess. Personally I liked him more before he was revealed as a CP9 agent.
Actually I liked all the undercover CP9 agents more before they were all revealed except Blueno; he stayed decent all throughout Water 7 and Ennies Lobby.
When the Galley-La shipwrights were first introduced, the one's people were clamoring over most were Kaku and Paulie, at least in this forum. Lucci was more in the middle I guess. Personally I liked him more before he was revealed as a CP9 agent.
I actually think he was close with Kaku and Paulie. Lulu and Tilestone however never came close to these for some reason. Actually I myself never considered them in the same league and this was before the entire strengh order got revealed.
And since we're at that topic, I'm still disappointed that the angel dude never got an important role as a main Galley-La craftsman. :(
I liked "Pigeon Guy" Lucchi rather than "CP9" Lucchi, simply because he was this silent, stoic, "Don't mess with me guy". When he started talking and morphed into his WG persona, he became just an asshole rambling about justice.
Of the shipwrights, I probably like Kaku and Paulie equally as the best. Kaku's CP9 persona, even, wasn't as drastically different from his Water 7 Persona. He still had that big goofy grin, and he was cracking jokes even when he lost.
Paulie… well, him flipping out over Nami and Calipha's attire was hilarious. In an Anime of perverted guys, the straight man is always fun times. However, as much as I liked his "Pipe Hitch Knives" move, I wasn't feeling his other rope moves.
What I stated had more to do character-wise, personality, look, etc.
If we're talking fight-wise, Luffy's toughest opponent was Crocodile.
During Luffy vs. Lucci, Gear 2nd's first use overwhelmed Lucci by a decent amount. Only by using Life Return later on in the match to speed himself up did Lucci manage to match Luffy in terms of speed, and even then it was at a cost of strength. Which is why just before the last Rokougan Lucci reverted back to his normal hybrid zoan form to use the move at it's strongest. In addition to that, Gear 3rd managed to knock Lucci completely unconscious. Frankly he was lucky that the Buster Call ship was at that spot otherwise he'd have drowned in the ocean.
Don't get me wrong, it's a fact that Lucci gave Luffy a hell of a fight. Up until then no other opponent was a match for Luffy in terms of physical strength, and that's why I think people like to label it as Luffy's most difficult fight but that just isn't the case.
Seeing as you seem like you're capable of having a sensible discussion (no offense but I'm afraid that discussions like this degenerate into a fanboyisms with most people, not you though) I'll respond to this.
You bring up excellent points, however, the thing is that clinches it for me is that Luffy HAD to use them. When he fought Crocodile, he didn't need to use Gears. True, he barely won but he still managed to beat him without using Gears. Now in Luffy vs Lucci, when Luffy fought him in base mode, he was clearly outmatched and over-powered. He couldn't even hold a candle to him in terms of physical combat. I truly believe that without his gears, Luffy WOULD have lost and it's only thanks to them that he managed to win. Ane he BARELY won even with them. And they gave him a huge increase in power, as well.
Base Luffy's physical powers were more than a match for Crocodile yet didn't stand a chance against Lucci's and even with his power-ups he still barely managed to beat him. To me, that's why Lucci gave the harder fight.
Seeing as you seem like you're capable of having a sensible discussion.
I take offense to this…
@Luffy:
When he fought Crocodile, he didn't need to use Gears.
Problem is, Gears are only Luffy using his DF ability. There really is no difference between Gears and say…Gomu Gomu no Bazooka. With Bazooka, he uses his rubber body to stretch and increase his attack power. With Gear 2nd, he uses his rubber body to give him more speed and power. Gears are only a sign of Luffy getting more powerful, and though we are left assuming they harm his body, they are just then next step in his fighting ability.
With that, you cannot compare his fight to Croc's. You have to compare Luffy's condition then vs. Croc ~~ and his condition now vs. Lucci. Vanessa does indeed make a good point of showing that Lucci may not have been as up to par with Luffy as many of us have been arguing (I would have to read the arc again to argue that, and even then I might not), and with that evidence she is most likely right that Croc was the more difficult opponent. My perspective on all of this has been on the last few chapters of the fight, where Luffy was worn out and collapsed most of the time. I forgot about Life Return and the such, and I personally do not believe he could have dodged Luffy's initial Gear 3rd due to the initial surprise of the attack and the range. (Luffy's speed may decrease with Gear 3rd, but it never really states how much….does it?).
Croc was harder to fight cuz he was a logia and Luffy didn't know his weakness at first. But then he beats him clean.
Did you look at the other two fights? There was no beating him clean at all. They were still hard fights.
Imagine him using Gear 2 against Croc after realizing his water weakness. Croc = KO.
I think this is unfair. I do believe that Ennies Lobby Luffy is stronger than the Luffy that fought Crocodile. If Luffy and crew had the strength that they had at Ennies Lobby in Alabasta, then the fights certainly wouldn't have been hard at all.
He and Enel could barely take Luffy's base attacks. And Lucci laughed about them.
From my observations, Crocodile seemed to take Luffy's hits better than Enel did.
You bring up excellent points, however, the thing is that clinches it for me is that Luffy HAD to use them. When he fought Crocodile, he didn't need to use Gears. True, he barely won but he still managed to beat him without using Gears. Now in Luffy vs Lucci, when Luffy fought him in base mode, he was clearly outmatched and over-powered. He couldn't even hold a candle to him in terms of physical combat. I truly believe that without his gears, Luffy WOULD have lost and it's only thanks to them that he managed to win. Ane he BARELY won even with them. And they gave him a huge increase in power, as well.
Once again, the Alabasta arc Luffy didn't have gears and certainly didn't think of using them. He just fought his hardest the best way he knew how. Same thing about Luffy being stronger during Ennies Lobby than in Alabasta. However, there is no doubt that he was outmatched without Gears against Lucci.
Base Luffy's physical powers were more than a match for Crocodile yet didn't stand a chance against Lucci's and even with his power-ups he still barely managed to beat him. To me, that's why Lucci gave the harder fight.
With this, I'll agree that physically Luffy could match and overcome Crocodile. However, other things went into the match. Certainly, Luffy's fight against Lucci the second time was extremely difficult and the most fierce that he had had yet. However, he was never actually beaten to death's door fully. The first time, he was stabbed in the chest and thrown out of the building. However, he was still fully conscious and could get out of the situation on his own. The second time, he was beaten severely, but if left alone, he would have still lived.
In all three fights, Luffy would have died against Crocodile so what I really think is that different terms are in need here. Physically and blow for blow, Lucci wins in giving Luffy the harder time. However, Crocodile was presented as deadlier in the fights against Luffy. So I think it would be that Lucci gave Luffy a harder fight, but Crocodile gave him a deadlier one. Also, I think both of them are pretty close to each other in giving Luffy a difficult fight.
Sorry if it was long, but that's my two cents on the matter. Anyway, as I said before, many people liked Lucci for his interesting fighting style and how he gave Luffy a good fight of two people just exchanging blows. Something like that.
I take offense to this…
Problem is, Gears are only Luffy using his DF ability. There really is no difference between Gears and say…Gomu Gomu no Bazooka. With Bazooka, he uses his rubber body to stretch and increase his attack power. With Gear 2nd, he uses his rubber body to give him more speed and power. Gears are only a sign of Luffy getting more powerful, and though we are left assuming they harm his body, they are just then next step in his fighting ability.With that, you cannot compare his fight to Croc's. You have to compare Luffy's condition then vs. Croc ~~ and his condition now vs. Lucci. Vanessa does indeed make a good point of showing that Lucci may not have been as up to par with Luffy as many of us have been arguing (I would have to read the arc again to argue that, and even then I might not), and with that evidence she is most likely right that Croc was the more difficult opponent. My perspective on all of this has been on the last few chapters of the fight, where Luffy was worn out and collapsed most of the time. I forgot about Life Return and the such, and I personally do not believe he could have dodged Luffy's initial Gear 3rd due to the initial surprise of the attack and the range. (Luffy's speed may decrease with Gear 3rd, but it never really states how much….does it?).
That's the thing, Luffy had to pull out much more power and he was in just as bad a state if not more.
Oh and Brennen, no offense:P
I wasn't talking about anyone in particular, I was just speaking generally.
There really is no difference between Gears and say…Gomu Gomu no Bazooka.
Does this sound retarted to anyone else?
With this, I'll agree that physically Luffy could match and overcome Crocodile. However, other things went into the match. Certainly, Luffy's fight against Lucci the second time was extremely difficult and the most fierce that he had had yet. However, he was never actually beaten to death's door fully. The first time, he was stabbed in the chest and thrown out of the building. However, he was still fully conscious and could get out of the situation on his own. The second time, he was beaten severely, but if left alone, he would have still lived.
In all three fights, Luffy would have died against Crocodile so what I really think is that different terms are in need here.
Lucci wasnt using A big old hook/poison. If that wasnt clear enough.
Walks over to croc and takes his golden hook and vile of poison
Croc: Awww. :(
Hands them to lucci. Points to luffy.
Me: Fight him
Lucci: Grins evily and proceeds to stab/poison luffy
Your entire last 2 paragraphs were just obliterated.
@Yonkou#3:
Lucci wasnt using knives/poison. Your entire last 2 paragraphs were just obliterated.
Rucchi's entire body is a weapon. And that without even turning into a vicious beast.
To Yonkou#3:
Lucci doesn't fight like that, Crocodile does. What do you mean when saying obliterated?
Rucchi's entire body is a weapon. And that without even turning into a vicious beast.
Luffy's weaknesses-Cutting weapons/poison/water/ice/fire.
Croc-Cutting weapon/Poison
Lucci- None of the above. Lucci did use his nails, oda just acted like he never did
To Desert spada. "However, he was never actually beaten to death's door fully."
This was the point of your last two paragraphs correct? Luffy cant be killed by physical blows. All lucci used was physical blows and then towards the very end of the fight some internal damaging attacks that obvoiusly were not as damaging as a 3 inch wide hook through the gut.
Thus your point was made null by the fact lucci didnt use anything that could kill luffy straight away, where as Crocodile did.
Don't most humans have a certain weakness to sharp objects, poison, drowning, being frozen and being burned? I don't get your point.
@Yonkou#3:
Croc-Cutting weapon/Poison
Lucci- None of the above. Lucci did use his nails, oda just acted like he never did
Could you please explain what you mean by that statement in the entire context? Besides Rankyaku is a cutting technique. It was even said so when Rucchi cut the Galley-La mansion.
You bring up excellent points, however, the thing is that clinches it for me is that Luffy HAD to use them. When he fought Crocodile, he didn't need to use Gears. True, he barely won but he still managed to beat him without using Gears. Now in Luffy vs Lucci, when Luffy fought him in base mode, he was clearly outmatched and over-powered. He couldn't even hold a candle to him in terms of physical combat. I truly believe that without his gears, Luffy WOULD have lost and it's only thanks to them that he managed to win. Ane he BARELY won even with them. And they gave him a huge increase in power, as well.
Gear 2nd and 3rd are, as brennen.exe stated, still a part of Luffy's Gomu Fruit's arsenal. I mean we don't fault Lucci for augmenting his already amazing Rokushiki techniques with the physical prowess of his Cat Fruit: Model Leopard right? So using that argument is rather silly since if one isn't able to use all aspects of whatever fighting style the character has come up with while the other can it already sets up a sort of bias which doesn't help our discussion at all.
Base Luffy's physical powers were more than a match for Crocodile yet didn't stand a chance against Lucci's and even with his power-ups he still barely managed to beat him. To me, that's why Lucci gave the harder fight.
This goes back to my initial post in people thinking just because Lucci was the first one to match Luffy physically as a reason for thinking the above. You can't just factor in how hard someone can punch/kick/etc. to determine threat, it doesn't work that way.
Now this is more of a general statement to everyone, but I've seen a lot of people refer to it as "Base Luffy." Even though it's not like Gear 2nd lacks any drawbacks to speak of for one to refer it as such. It just irks me every time someone uses that term.
Is there any way you two can like get together and post your statements in one post? It's a pain quoting you both at once. :P
Don't most humans have a certain weakness to sharp objects, poison, drowning, being frozen and being burned? I don't get your point.
I dont like blatently stateing the reason why your wrong, because i think it's rude. I try to leave context clues and use examples to state my point. This is one of those times. If you cant understand them, which it seems you can't, then i'm afraid i cant continue this disscussion because your an idiot and check the sig, i'm not allowed to argue with you. Now in the event you CAN understand sutle clues and hints, heres the next one.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/482/12/
Could you please explain what you mean by that statement in the entire context?
Lucci must have stabbed Luffy over two dozen times through the course of that fight. Remember just before luffy used gear three when lucci was using the flying shigan over and over? Each one drew blood. Either luffy's body heals rapidly in gear 2 or he should have died from blood loss. Not like this is the first times it's happened (Zoro vs. Mr.1, Luffy vs. Croc, Sanji vs. Mr.2) but i had to throw that in there for whoever might say something like.
"Lucci used a cutting object, his nails."
I had to refute that in advance.
@Yonkou#3:
To Desert spada. "However, he was never actually beaten to death's door fully."
This was the point of your last two paragraphs correct? Luffy cant be killed by physical blows. All lucci used was physical blows and then towards the very end of the fight some internal damaging attacks that obvoiusly were not as damaging as a 3 inch wide hook through the gut.
Thus your point was made null by the fact lucci didnt use anything that could kill luffy straight away, where as Crocodile did.
I wouldn't say can't be killed. If Rokougan did that much damage, then any more would have killed him. It's true that normal physical blows don't do much damage at all, but with a monster like Lucci whose pure physical power is so great, he can get around that.
I also can't see how you can tax Crocodile for using his full arsenal of weapons that were different from Lucci's. My point was that for Luffy, Crocodile was a deadlier opponent. Thus, that would give him the title of being the deadliest opponent that Luffy has faced. Lucci gave him a harder physical battle though, and the title of who gave Luffy the harder fight would go to Lucci.
