Good god, Greg's posts are long.
? This is a discussion. Is there anything wrong with saying what comes to mind?
If bitter means annoyed that two lame chapters were produced for the purpose of pandering to escapist fantasies for japanese fangirls, then uh, YEAH.
So, you are saying you're bitter and you are in fact insulting fans who liked it. Just so we're clear.
Then why did you bother posting that explanation twice?
That would be because you keep asking, "Why should anyone care?" You're not really making any new ground but it would seem that's my fault since I haven't explained myself clearly.
Completely destroys your argument that Sanji won't do the 'wrong' thing in a realistic situation.
Wait how? In the end he did do the right thing. He didn't grope her. He fought back.
As a teen, did you also tell those girls that you would peep on them in the locker the first chance you got?
Who me? No, no way. That's just not the kind of person I am. But our football team's QB would tell them it all the time and they ate it up.
Keep in mind, all of this is in retrospect. He can't therefore he's coming forward with it. It's supposed to be comical. He's in a tense dramatic situation and he's broken up over something like that. If you don't think it's funny, well, different strokes.
I thought it was funny as hell that while fighting a man augmented by multiple wild animals they were discussing something as sophomoric as peeping on women. It is an ironic situation (ten points for proper use of the term) and I enjoyed it. I can understand how some fans wouldn't find the humor in it though. I'm just glad Oda doesn't take his characters too seriously.
I'm sure they wouldn't have found that as 'cute', rather than if you were just recalling a horny highschool dream.
Oh if I told them now? Are you kidding? They'd probably eat it up because I'm just being honest. I mean granted I'm not going to go up to Suzy Q on the street, "Hey! Remember me? I'd have given my left nut to see you guys in the locker room back at HHS!"
But given a few drinks and a rowdy conversation among friends, I'm sure that'd go over quite well actually. I mean look at Superbad. Young males think just like that. There's nothing wrong with it unless they actually FREAKIN' DO IT. Then you're in a whole other realm.
If the girls complain about men seeing them as tits, and then fawn over you for trying to peep on them, then yes. It would be.
I really can't seem to get this point across which means I fail, but it all has to do about with what he wants to do and what he ultimately will do. Sanji will never be allowed to do as such. It's ingrained in his character. Oda will not let him succeed unless it's at the cost of a gag like Shiawase Punch. Fans understand and know this. Furthermore, when presented with a situation to do the wrong thing, he will struggle and do the 'right' thing which even though may not be the best at the time, will ultimately work out for the best given the design by Oda.
In a sense you're right actually. It is indeed contradictory. That's why it works, because what he wants and what he gets/does is completely different, and ultimately he suffers for it ie. cold shoulder, physical abuse from females, etc.
Again, I'm really sorry for saying the same thing over but you keep asking the same question and I'm trying to use different explanations. My goal is not to get you to say:
"I was wrong, you are right."
It's just so that you can understand and accept someone elses' pov. without making fun of it or putting it below yourself.
I specifically ignored your 'rape victim' comment because there are so many things WRONG with it. You're an intelligent guy, so it shocked me that you would even bring up that kind of comparison.
That is possibly the worst analogy you could have ever used. It's completely irrelevent and has nothing to do with how Nami was depicted and my issue with it. Nami was UNCONSCIOUS, not fearful, not angry, not responsive in any way. She was pretty much a lifeless "doll" in every sense of the word, stuck in a tug-of-war between two men.
Seriously bringing up "rape" in a conversation that has nothing to do with it is like inviting the retarded nephew of Godwin's law to the dinner table.
Why aren't you addressing it? Nami is certainly in a similar situation. You think Absalom after viewing her naked body once already, was going to settle for a kiss? By saying Nami is pathetic for 'leaving office', you're insulting any number of people in the same situation. Oda chose to have her unconscious for some reason. We don't know why yet, maybe she was horrified. Maybe she was drugged. But saying it's out of character for a woman like her after she's already been violated and assaulted once by the prick, I'm not so sure it's out of character. Arlong was never after her body, this is something very different, and I'm actually surprised Oda made that choice with the shower scene.
The "why" doesn't matter because we are looking at the chapter without the benefit of hindsight. Whether her shadow was stolen or she was beaten over the head with a wooden mallet, it doesn't change her role and treatment in the chapters.
So now…you're simply upset that she was unconscious because it reduced her to a 'damsel in distress'. Now, I wouldn't dare question your right to like or dislike that role but...what's wrong with it? She had some down time. Nami can't always be a pillar of strength. In fact I think Oda specifically created the scene as a repayment for the EL scene where Nami took up arms for Sanji when he was reduced to a bubble man. That's why they're a team. There's going to be times when some of them are down, and in those times the others need to do their best. If every character was a steam engine that went through every enemy it would be like every other series. That said, the very core of why she's unconscious may prove to be important later....or it may not. But to not allow Oda an explanation even? Woah.
You said I was 'missing the point'. What is the point?
The same as I described above. And each time previously.
That it's a masturbation fantasy for some women?
Now earlier you said you weren't talking down to people who enjoyed it. But here you are yet again talking about it as if it were a bad thing. Not to mention your somewhat creepy obsession with using the term masturbation. It's something people like. There's no need to put others down for enjoying it or reducing their thoughts to being something purely for self gratification.
I already said that I found the connotations of the whole "white dress" thing was disgusting and disturbing. If Japanese fans think it's awesome then that's their business.
I would appreciate this kind of attitude a whole lot more if it didn't follow a sentence degrading their opinions as 'masturbatory' fantasy.
And what is your concern with how much I disliked it?
Hmmm, yet again, I really reeeeally can't stress enough that I have no interest in whether you liked it or not.
Uh actually….
I thought it was a terrible fight.
I mean I enjoyed the irony of the whole situation. I also enjoyed the DF thing for Sanji. And I think the final panel of Absalom stuck in the wall was great.
But....it was kind of boring. Someone made a post a page ago to the tune of, "How many times can we see Sanji just kick stuff?", I agree with that and think that despite Oda's dedication to wrapping this arc up quickly, he could have done better.
So I'm not really interested in your opinion, insomuch as I am you would accept than some fans can appreciate or enjoy it without reducing their opinions being inferior or less moral than your own.
Just because you like Sanji, and liked the chapter, it seems you're the one that is taking this too seriously.
In addition to not liking the chapter…I also don't care for Sanji actually. Since he's a member of the crew it's like saying I prefer Wendy's over McDonalds, both are good....but I think one is much better. In that essence I don't dislike him, but he shows the least room for growth among the crew and therefore i don't find him all that interesting.
I thought the chapter was shit, I don't like how Sanji views women and I don't like how Nami was used as a device. Maybe my opinion will change one day, but I doubt it. This is the only thread where I've voiced my thoughts on the matter, and yet it seems to bother you so much. Why are YOU so sensitive to this?
Again…I'm really not worried about your opinion ^_^; I don't like how you group everyone that happened to enjoy it into one category.
Taking my words out of context: Why should anyone care that it was intended as a chapter for fangirls?
Again, speaking down as if it were a bad thing to be a female and enjoy the character.
"DURRR NO ONE HAS A REASONS WHY THEY DON'T LIKE IT. ANTI-MAIN CASTRRR H8!!!1"
And who wrote anything of this nature?
I'm not going to put "In my opinion" at the beginning of every single one of my posts. Most people 'got' where I was coming from.
Yet again, as from the start, your opinion doesn't matter here. Nowhere am I attacking you or how you feel. Nowhere have I attempted to change your view of the chapter. I've tried many different ways to explain why/how it may be viewed/read/enjoyed. Instead of taking that into consideration you have repeatedly come back by insulting people who did in fact enjoy it.
Not once have I even hinted that you should like the events, or the character, but how you treat others that do is pretty sad.
Anyhow I don't understand why Greg needs to defend Japanese women for being contradicting.
I'm not defending anyone in particular really. In fact, I was just explaining a reason why some people might like it. And that doesn't mean everyone has to ^_^;
It's just that Taz brings up some well thought out points, and you seem to refuse to acknowledge even that.
Oh I think he brings up excellent points. But…none of them have to do with respecting the fact that some people might just like the chapter without namecalling.