Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World)

electricmastro

I get wanting to keep the discussion alive, but any argument about Yamato staying in Wano after this arc reads like trolling nowadays.

If you want to argue that Yamato will leave but not with Luffy, that would make for a far more interesting way to keep the discussion alive.

Yep, people focusing more on who Yamato is near more rather than what Yamato is wanting and is working towards. That’s like saying Robin should have stayed with Crocodile because she had more panels with him than with Luffy during Alabasta, or that Luffy will be on the sun more often simply because his fruit is talked up as being the sun god fruit.

People are free to believe Yamato will stay on Wano of course, but if they expect others to believe them, then it would prob help their case using more analysis and evidence of why Yamato is specifically best for the job more than anyone else brought action and experience rather than just going on Kaido’s words. As if things like Denjiro’s experience as a yakuza boss is worthless and is experience meant to be tossed away into the trash simply because Denjiro isn’t the same as Yamato, even though Yamato has never led groups like how Denjiro has.

Deicide

@Zhenja:

Nice, it's just like that collage of Carrot and all the great crew interactions and look out position thing she had…

Good thing I also said Carrot wouldn't join back then.
But Carrot did get more chances in her first 50 or so chapters than Yamato has right now.
At her best, I gave Carrot a 30% chance of joining. Yamato never got that high, IMO.
Just like Carrot, Yamato isn't likely to be joining the crew.

electricmastro

@Deicide:

Notonly that, but his DF is a guardian deity of Wano

Ah yes, the fruit Kaido talked about as being that of a guardian deity that’s meant to serve him.

I’m curious to know, did heaven above chose for Yamato to eat the fruit so that she’ll have to follow Kaido as shogun for the rest of her life? Does that mean that Wano’s guardian deity revolves completely around Kaido? Would that make Kaido a crucial part of Wano’s history in that respect too?

Deicide

@electricmastro:

Ah yes, the fruit Kaido talked about as being that if a guardian deity that’s meant to serve him.

He chose the fruit BECAUSE it's a guardian deity of the country.

I’m curious to know, did heaven above chose for Yamato to eat the fruit so that she’ll have to follow Kaido as shogun for the rest of her life? Does that mean that Wano’s guardian deity revolve completely around Kaido? Would that make Kaido a crucial part of Wano’s history in that respect too?

The fruit ended up with Yamato instead, BECAUSE he's going to be the true guardian, and not Kaido's proxy shogun. What's so hard to understand? Don't zoan DFs have a mind of their own?

Coookie

Did I miss posts addressing how there doesn't seem to be any reference of the Wanoese people worshipping the Oguchi no Makami, or how even former street thugs and anthropomorphic animals can become Guardian Deities by training and education, showing that "Guardian Deity" seems to be a very loose term and that there isn't just the singular one? Because I remember asking for it several times but I don't remember ever seeing a reply…

Deicide

@Coookie:

Did I miss posts addressing how there doesn't seem to be any reference of the Wanoese people worshipping the Oguchi no Makami, or how even former street thugs and anthropomorphic animals can become Guardian Deities by training and education, showing that "Guardian Deity" seems to be a very loose term and that there isn't just the singular one? Because I remember asking for it several times but I don't remember ever seeing a reply…

So, you are dismissing what's being told us in the story because you don't like it.
Nice way to analyze anything.

electricmastro

@Deicide:

The fruit ended up with Yamato instead, BECAUSE he's going to be the true guardian, and not Kaido's proxy shogun. What's so hard to understand? Don't zoan DFs have a mind of their own?

But Kaido said it’s the Wano Guardian’s job to protect Wano for him. How could the Deity not revolve around Kaido at that point?

Then again, I suppose the will of the fruit must be turning on Kaido after all, in case the fruit told Yamato to make this reply to him.

Coookie

@Deicide:

So, you are dismissing what's being told us in the story because you don't like it.
Nice way to analyze anything.

Nice non-answer xD But sure, that's also a way to avoid admitting that you have no actual retort.

Deicide

@electricmastro:

But Kaido said it’s the Wano Guardian’s job to protect Wano for him. How could the Deity not revolve around Kaido at that point?

Then again, I suppose the will of the fruit must be turning on Kaido after all, in case the fruit told Yamato to make this reply to him.

[qimg]https://i.imgur.com/nr1QjBH.png[/qimg]

"Like hell it is [to do it for you]".

It's not hard to understand.

Zhenja

@Deicide:

So, you are dismissing what's being told us in the story because you don't like it.
Nice way to analyze anything.

Says the guy who ignores Yamato stating she wants to sail with Luffy on every possible occasion…

Great fucking analytic skills...

Deicide

@Coookie:

Nice non-answer xD But sure, that's also a way to avoid admitting that you have no actual retort.

It's an answer. The story told us via Kaido that he chose Yamato's DF was chosen because it's a guardian deity of the country.
THe story told us via Kaido that he went to great lengths to get that DF.
The story also told us via Kaido that Yamato wasn't supposed to have been the one to eat it. He also said that it's troublesome that someone who calls himself "Oden" had eaten it.
The story told us that Yamato stumbled upon it and was hungry, so he ate it.

There's no reason for Kaido to be lying there. He wanted a DF that would make his new proxy shogun "legitimate" to Wano's people. It ended in Yamato's hands instead. Still, the fruit was so meaningful that Kaido insisted in making Yamato the shogun, despite being unfit for it.

None of that makes any sense if it's just Kaido bullshitting. He could have gotten another DF. He could have given it to another person. But no, the DF has a meaning, and that's why Kaido was stuck with trying to make Yamato shogun.

When you insist that meaning is false, you insist all the plot points above are also false, and that makes no sense.

fana

And after Kaidou is defeated, Wano will need protection from who/what ?

Momo will have the 9 scabbards (Izo replacing Kanjiro), the Yakuza, the samurai, the ninjas, and if that's not enough put the flag(s) of the new Emperor(s) and who will dare threatening Momo ?

Plus with the borders being open, that means that communication will happen with the outside world and another Oden situation can't happen anymore.

Coookie

@Deicide:

It's an answer. The story told us via Kaido that he chose Yamato's DF was chosen because it's a guardian deity of the country.
THe story told us via Kaido that he went to great lengths to get that DF.
The story also told us via Kaido that Yamato wasn't supposed to have been the one to eat it. He also said that it's troublesome that someone who calls himself "Oden" had eaten it.
The story told us that Yamato stumbled upon it and was hungry, so he ate it.

There's no reason for Kaido to be lying there. He wanted a DF that would make his new proxy shogun "legitimate" to Wano's people. It ended in Yamato's hands instead. Still, the fruit was so meaningful that Kaido insisted in making Yamato the shogun, despite being unfit for it.

None of that makes any sense if it's just Kaido bullshitting. He could have gotten another DF. He could have given it to another person. But no, the DF has a meaning, and that's why Kaido was stuck with trying to make Yamato shogun.

It's not an actual answer because it doesn't address my point at all. It's a strawman shifting the focus to what Kaido knows about the fruit when that wasn't what I was talking about, because you presumably aren't able to find a good explanation for the points I raised. Are you a customer service employee, by any chance?

So much for analytic skills.

Deicide

@fana:

And after Kaidou is defeated, Wano will need protection from who/what ?

Plot point.

Are we forgetting that Wano was closed off in the first place to protect it from something 800 years ago?

Momo will have the 9 scabbards (Izo replacing Kanjiro), the Yakuza, the samurai, the ninjas, and if that's not enough put the flag(s) of the new Emperor(s) and who will dare threatening Momo ?

Plus with the borders being open, that means that communication will happen with the outside world and another Oden situation can't happen anymore.

Wano is a shade of its former self. It's not the same country that defied the World Government for centuries due to the strength of the samurai alone.
Plus, we don't know what it means to have its borders open. It may very well get rid off its waterfalls and crazy climate, which as Kaido said are its greatest defenses against invasions.

Monquito

@Deicide:

My collection keeps growing.

[qimg]https://i.imgur.com/CQoXZ1U.png[/qimg]

[qimg]https://i.imgur.com/cwTJB12.png[/qimg]

[qimg]https://i.imgur.com/j4kBwzg.png[/qimg]

I guess you named this folder Yamato keeps being Amazed by Luffy and Disappointed by Momo. Cause thats exactly what I'm seeing right there.

So I dont watch the anime, and I spent most of yesterday on Disney+, and then opened fb at midnight and found out there was a lot of excitement towards the latest anime chapter, I even seen a screenshot of it being TT on Twitter.

It appears Toei went on to make it more clear Yamato's been waiting a toast, which the manga foreshadowed, but without @Sandman explaining of the poem, we probably wouldnt get it, and since Toei is more aware of the fact, they have a huge overseas audience, they left the shady foreshadowing behind and pretty much put it on Yamato's mouth that she'll be waiting Luffy to have her promised toast, that was a good decision, some people were still in plain denial of this and it needed to stop.

Zhenja

Oh damn… if Momo only had some people who have seen the outside world... who could help him to understand... like someone who spent decades on a pirate ship...
Nah, forget it... let Yamato handle it, she spent her whole life in Wano reading Oden's journal, so she knows everything about the outside world... Izo can go back to where he came from...

Monquito

@Deicide:

So, you are dismissing what's being told us in the story because you don't like it.
Nice way to analyze anything.

He made a good point there tho, no Wano-kunian has even mentioned the thing, and our only source is Kaido, who cannot recognize JoyBoy in front of him.

Chances are, Kaido doesnt know the whole picture or he's been fooled around.

electricmastro

@Deicide:

"Like hell it is [to do it for you]".

It's not hard to understand.

I mean, how can it be hard to understand that Kaido still said what he said about the deity’s job to protect Wano for him. If we ignore that, then why should we even give more than a grain of salt to what he’s saying about devil fruit lore and deities? Should it be easy to understand that we should only give more than a grain of salt to only some of the things he says, and not to anything that makes out a deity revolving around him?

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@fana:

And after Kaidou is defeated, Wano will need protection from who/what ?

Momo will have the 9 scabbards (Izo replacing Kanjiro), the Yakuza, the samurai, the ninjas, and if that's not enough put the flag(s) of the new Emperor(s) and who will dare threatening Momo ?

Plus with the borders being open, that means that communication will happen with the outside world and another Oden situation can't happen anymore.

Apparently the Scabbards, Yakuza, and Minks of Zou are all too incompetent and unworthy to raise Momo up from his manchild cowardliness, which is why Yamato is needed and not them.

Actually, if Wano’s main enemy will be the Government going forward, then maybe Luffy will also have to feel obligated to return to Wano every now and then since he also cares about Wano and that most of the Wano inhabitants, like Kinemon, are too incompetent to fend for themselves.

Deicide

@electricmastro:

I mean, how can it be hard to understand that Kaido still said what he said about the deity’s job to protect Wano for him. If we ignore that, then why should we even give more than a grain of salt to what he’s saying about devil fruit lore and deities? Should it be easy to understand that we should only give more than a grain of salt to only some of the things he says, and not to anything that makes out a deity revolving around him?

And it's not hard to understand that Kaido was trying to corrupt the fruit's meaning either. That he chose the fruit because its power was important to Wano. And he wanted to turn it into a form of opression.

Apparently the Scabbards, Yakuza, and Minks of Zou are all too incompetent and unworthy to raise Momo up from his manchild cowardliness, which is why Yamato is needed and not them.

Yamato held off Kaido while all nine scabbards couldn't do it. By that alone he's a better guardian to the country, one that can ward it against much stronger foes.

And this chapter also shows the difference between Yamato and Kin'emon. Kin'emon sees Momo as his lord. If Momonosuke needs to do something but can't, Kin'emon will beg but never push Momo into doing it. Yamato is his friend just like Luffy is, one that's teaching Momonosuke into being a stronger person and pushing him into greater deeds

Zhenja

@Deicide:

Yamato held off Kaido while all nine scabbards couldn't do it. By that alone he's a better guardian to the country, one that can ward it against much stronger foes.

You know who will even be better? Right, the pirate king…

@Deicide:

If Momonosuke needs to do something but can't, Kin'emon will beg but never push Momo into doing it.

You know who is even better to push him? Right, his sister… she's not gonna push him, she's gonna dropkick him into it...

Deicide

@Zhenja:

You know who will even be better? Right, the pirate king…

So, Luffy will get stationed in Wano forever?

You know who is even better to push him? Right, his sister… she's not gonna push him, she's gonna dropkick him into it...

They haven't even interacted in the whole arc.

Hey, let's ignore the actual arc!

Zhenja

@Deicide:

So, Luffy will get stationed in Wano forever?

Yeah, sure… because his title won't be enough... damn, Whitebeard must have been sercretly living on FMI the whole time...

@Deicide:

They haven't even interacted in the whole arc.

Hey, let's ignore the actual arc!

So, because they haven't interacted with each other yet, she is as good as dead to him… she might as well just leave the country, right?

electricmastro

@Deicide:

And it's not hard to understand that Kaido was trying to corrupt the fruit's meaning either.

So we can understand that if he'll twist words around about devil fruit deities to fit his agenda, then we can also understand that Yamato isn't more likely to stay in Wano for the rest of her life then and not take what Kaido says with more than a grain of salt. Good to know, since she's been voicing her desire to leave for the last 2 years of this arc.

Lemony

I'm kinda unironically warming up to the possibility of Momo and Yamato both joining. I don't think neither the argument of "look how emphasized the idea of Yamato's freedom and wanting to leave is" nor "look how emphasized Momo and Yamato bonding is" are wrong, which might be a radical position in this thread, when it seems like any opposite position is only reacted to snark and/or trolling accusations, lol. But I can see both of those elements being heavy in the story, and a double joining is pretty much the only way to reconcile them without making one of those two factors at least a little bit weird.

Deicide

@Zhenja:

Yeah, sure… because his title won't be enough... damn, Whitebeard must have been sercretly living on FMI the whole time...

Whitebeard's name may have warded off the passing pirates from islands, not world powers.

So, because they haven't interacted with each other yet, she is as good as dead to him… she might as well just leave the country, right?

No, it means you are assuming they will have a specific interaction when we have seen nothing of the sort. But we do see that specific interaction with Yamato.

Hiyori last saw Momo as a 8-year old child, now he's a 28-year old adult with a 8-year old mind. She lived those 20 years, he hasn't.

What is there's to say for any certainty that she will have the same role as Yamato's or Luffy's? There's nothing in the story so far to make that direction certain. Are we going to imagine she's still drop-kicking him like when she was 6-years old?

Yamato, on the other hand, has seen both child Momo and adult Momo apart in a matter of minutes. In the end, the relationship that this arc is building up is Momo/Yamao, not Momo/Hiyori. But you shoot down the obvious route while hoping for one that hasn't been in the arc at all.

Zhenja

@Deicide:

Whitebeard's name may have warded off the passing pirates from islands, not world powers.

Ohhh, I forgot… Yamato can do that... if she only could've been at Marineford, she would've leveled the marines and saved Ace...

Monquito

@Deicide:

you are assuming they will have a specific interaction.

This is pretty much a fact tho, it is promised they will reunite when the battle is over.

By that time, and if Yamato is still awkardly third-wheeling around when Momo and Hiyori meet, well, that would be kinda weird.

I believe Luffy will introduce Yamato to the SH's while Momo and Hiyori hug each other.

Deicide

Just a reminder of how the real conversation went back then, since people like to deny what's obviously in front of them:

Kaido never wanted Yamato to have that fruit, Yamato are it by happenstance.
The fruit is a guardian deity of Wano. Kaido wanted to use it for his own benefit.
Yamato, however, aligns with the fruit's supposed purpose by wanting to protect Wano.
"If I don't fight for the sake of this country, I can't call myself Oden."

Nothing of that proves Yamato will stay, but it does place a certain narrative weight into Yamato becoming Wano's guardian.

Then you add all the bonding with Momonosuke, and Luffy not reciprocating any strong feelings towards Yamato, and that weight gets even heavier.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Monquito:

By that time, and if Yamato is still awkardly third-wheeling around when Momo and Hiyori meet, well, that would be kinda weird.

Are there incest in Wano?
How Yamato becoming Momo's guardian have anything to do with Momo meeting his sister again?
Does meeting his sister means he can't have friends or retainers or something?

electricmastro

@Lemony:

I'm kinda unironically warming up to the possibility of Momo and Yamato both joining. I don't think neither the argument of "look how emphasized the idea of Yamato's freedom and wanting to leave is" nor "look how emphasized Momo and Yamato bonding is" are wrong, which might be a radical position in this thread, when it seems like any opposite position is only reacted to snark and/or trolling accusations, lol. But I can see both of those elements being heavy in the story, and a double joining is pretty much the only way to reconcile them without making one of those two factors at least a little bit weird.

Thing for is that I honestly don't know how much Yamato being with Momo as it has been portrayed is "bonding" when Yamato has been talking about either Luffy or Oden's journal lore with him most of the time, been ready to leave him like with the bombs, and talking about their interaction as if it's superior to her relationship with Luffy when she really hasn't been given a chance to interact much with Luffy due to him being too distracted with what's going on with Kaido. That's kind of like saying that Franky wasn't set-up to join Luffy since Franky didn't really bond with Luffy due to him being too distracted with Lucci. Yamato hasn't even interacted with Momo's sister Hiyori or Kinemon even though they're valued figures in Momo's life as well.

Even beyond that, if Momo is so cowardly of a manchild and others like Denjiro and Hyogoro are so incompetent and unfit to help raise Momo up as the next shogun, then that means Momo's development as a character wanting to be the next shogun still has a far longer way to go and that everything that has happened to him since his intro in 2012 hasn't been nearly enough, even if Luffy pointed out to him how he bit an Emperor and has nothing to be afraid of anymore.

I mean, if Momo will still be a cowardly manchild even when a leader like Luffy yells out to him how he bit Kaido, then how could even Yamato, Hyogoro, Denjiro, Neko, Inu, or even Luffy be expected to help develop his character further beyond that, let alone to be shogun?

Coookie

Liberation and protection are two different things. So much for liking to deny what's right there. Especially after ignoring other posts :>

Deicide

@Coookie:

Liberation and protection are two different things. So much for liking to deny what's right there. Especially after ignoring other posts :>

And yet I wrote:

Nothing of that proves Yamato will stay, but it does place a certain narrative weight into Yamato becoming Wano's guardian.

Then you add all the bonding with Momonosuke, and Luffy not reciprocating any strong feelings towards Yamato, and that weight gets even heavier.

Zhenja

@Deicide:

Nothing of that proves Yamato will stay, but it does place a certain narrative weight into Yamato becoming Wano's guardian.

So Yamato's words mean nothing while Kaido's mean the world…

@Deicide:

Are there incest in Wano?

What the hell… that escalated quickly...

Zik

Yeah that was weird that his mind jumped to that.

Coookie

@Deicide:

And yet I wrote:

This you?

@Deicide:

Yamato, however, aligns with the fruit's supposed purpose by wanting to protect Wano.

Weird, I don't see any mention of that in the panels you posted. What I do see is Yamato expressing a desire to liberate Wano. Which is accomplished as soon as Kaido is driven out of the country, as he has said before. Which he preceded with "I'm going out to sea with Luffy!" Funny how that works.

If only we had a Warrior of Liberation as a comparison who has been liberating countries left and right throughout the series and stayed behind to remain those countries' guardian because of his non-verbalized desire to protect those.

electricmastro

@Zhenja:

So Yamato's words mean nothing while Kaido's mean the world…

Yeah, I mean, if Yamato is a deity now, then shouldn't that mean we should take her words with more grains of salt over Kaido's at this point?

Monquito

@Deicide:

Are there incest in Wano?
How Yamato becoming Momo's guardian have anything to do with Momo meeting his sister again?
Does meeting his sister means he can't have friends or retainers or something?

Yamato does not want to be Momo's Guardian.

Hiyori is the right person to rule Wano alongside Momo.

Point is, Yamato's just temporarily babisitting Momo until Hiyori comes and does it herself.

This doesnt feel any different than all the intercations between Chopper/Hyogoro, Usopp/Kinemon, Jinbro/Raizou, Nami/O-Tama, etc..

So yes, the SH's are friends with the Wano-Kunians, none of them, and neither Yamato want to stay in Wano forever.

electricmastro

@Monquito:

Yamato does not want to be Momo's Guardian.

We don't even know how many grains of salt we should take Kaido's words either, in light of him talking about the deity's job being to protect Wano for him.

Monquito

This post is deleted!

Monquito

!

The 'Momo doesnt want to be treated as a child' argument and that 'Kinemon treats Momo as a child' didnt age well.

electricmastro

@Monquito:

! https://i.ibb.co/NjjLPDV/Screenshot-2022-04-24-15-44-44-998-com-android-chrome-2.jpg

The 'Momo doesnt want to be treated as a child' argument and that 'Kinemon treats Momo as a child' didnt age well.

I admit it could have been said and shown more, but I'm still sure it lends more to the idea that Kinemon and the others are willing to challenge Momo and not just baby him, portraying them more as competent, even though Kinemon and most of the others have been dismissed as incompetent and unfit to help Momo become shogun.

Lemony

@Monquito:

! https://i.ibb.co/NjjLPDV/Screenshot-2022-04-24-15-44-44-998-com-android-chrome-2.jpg

The 'Momo doesnt want to be treated as a child' argument and that 'Kinemon treats Momo as a child' didnt age well.

I mean, there's that whole scene in Zou which the entire point was that Luffy treat Momo as an equal and not as a child/heir and Momo standing up to that (so, you know, starting this entire character arc of his), and that obviously happened after this scene chronologically. Not sure if a flashback to previous events makes anything age well or badly.

electricmastro

@Lemony:

I mean, there's that whole scene in Zou which the entire point was that Luffy treat Momo as an equal and not as a child/heir and Momo standing up to that (so, you know, starting this entire character arc of his), and that obviously happened after this scene chronologically. Not sure if a flashback to previous events makes anything age well or badly.

Yep, that along with Momo voicing his desire to become shogun of Wano and Luffy pointing out to him that he was brave enough to bite an Emperor, but I guess even that isn't good enough and that Momo will have to spend many more chapters developing himself up from his cowardly manchild persona.

Shiebs

Anyone mention how Momo was on the color spread?

Not that it really matters that much

Coookie

@Shiebs:

Anyone mention how Momo was on the color spread?

Not that it really matters that much

If anything it puts the colorspread with Tama in a new light

electricmastro

@Shiebs:

Anyone mention how Momo was on the color spread?

Not that it really matters that much

I wonder how many more people are voicing their suggestion of Kinemon joining the crew now too.

Deicide

Next chapter (or a very close later one) should be a big one as it's probably about Momonosuke gathering strength to move Onigashima.

Let's see what will be Yamato's role in it.

Raffy

I assume that once Kaido is removed from Wano the regions will all unite under a single ruler …. aptly named (6th!) Emperor Momo! And Kin stays in Wano becoming a vassal of Momo

astagadragon

Or, Momo becomes shogun and Hiyori the emperor. Shogun is the highest ranking general, below the emperor cmiiw.

As for Yams, some Japanese fans already wary of her chances after all this time lol

Rean

If you want to disbelieve what Oda is telling you in the most direct manner he has, then that's your prerogative, just don't start wailing about how the story sucks when you're eventually proven wrong.

electricmastro

@Rean:

If you want to disbelieve what Oda is telling you in the most direct manner he has, then that's your prerogative, just don't start wailing about how the story sucks when you're eventually proven wrong.

And if people are trying to construct arguments towards their view, it would perhaps be best if they were more keen on taking the evidence and in-story examples into account as a whole, as well as analyzing how characters are being built up and what they're actively attempting to do at present time. Not to mention being more wiling to analyze a character's skills and accomplishments as a whole in at least determining who's the best person for a certain position.