Well unless your name is Frieza and Cooler and both your bodies got wrecked causing you both to become part machine.
Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly
-
-
Does 16 counts as a mech?
-
Well unless your name is Frieza and Cooler and both your bodies got wrecked causing you both to become part machine.
Those aren't mech suits, they're full body replacements. Same with the androids. Presumably those things keep the ki-flow intact. Or in the android's case, provide an infinite energy source.
-
This post is deleted!
-
I'm enjoying this new Super manga arc a bunch.
The story actually allows moments to breathe, it actually has a few pretty cool character moments and goat demon has a very cool story going on as a villain.
It actually feels like a story, instead of a bland plot summary like the manga felt to me until the end of the manga ToP.
So far, it's striking a very careful balance of not just being a rehash of old stuff, even if there clearly are old elements being used (notably Moro being very King Piccolo-like character-wise, but still feeling just new enough, with a bunch of new things still standing out about his character).
-
Gotta say, I agree. . .though not on every front. I find Moro pretty boring so far. Also, this is suffering from the same ailments as the Goku Black arc, which is. . .we've been through this before. It's reeeeally hard no to get massive flashbacks from the Namek arc.
But this last few chapters added a new element, and that is. . .well, just read it. It made me really happy to see it, honestly.
Spoilers in case you want to ruin the surprise:
! After being blueballed to hell and back with Buu, he's basically back in full force here. He's the de-facto protagonist of the arc, kind of like Trunks was in the anime version of the Goku Black arc, and he's actually kicking asses and taking names. Of course the arc's still not finished, and seeing the uber messy narrative of the Goku Black arc and, to a certain extent, the Tournament arc, I can sort of see the whole "get defeated - run - hide - heal - fight again - get defeated - run - hide - heal - repeat ad nauseam" shtick that has become par for the course with DBSuper happening again, but at least for the past two chapters and, from what I gather, at least the next few ones, Buu is a massive player in this arc. So, if only to see that happen, go read it.
Also, gotta say, and that's something I've said for a long time, the fighting is way better in the manga. It's more creative, more Toriyama-like (and Toriyama-lite, too, of course). The anime feels like what people think DBZ fights are like, but. . .that's not really how Toriyama paced-crafted his fights, at all. The manga version is the most similar experience out of the two, even if it's still not stellar by a long shot.
-
The new chapter of Super was pretty good. The current arc is so reminding me of the Piccolo arc from the original Dragon Ball with things continuing more hopeless for Goku and the others.
-
The new chapter of Super was pretty good. The current arc is so reminding me of the Piccolo arc from the original Dragon Ball with things continuing more hopeless for Goku and the others.
It has similarities to me as we. that and the fact that it was occurring on Namek was starting to make me hope Piccolo might come back into the story for this fight. I always hoped that they would do something more with his Kami half. Wishful thinking I am sure.
-
HOOOOLY…..
this apparently took the guy 3.5 months and over 1000 hours. And this video doesn't even show the shading part at the end!
There's a poster from forever ago that was similarly impressive that just cut and paste existing art. This is way cooler and more comprehensive and up to date. I'm… gonna have to get that print.
-
16 chars of that's cool.
-
So. Is everyone there?
Just imagine being near finish and realizing people are missing.
-
Considering that he repeated characters because of changing designs and transformations, I doubt it. Or he put them on top of any of the dragons.
-
So. Is everyone there?
Just imagine being near finish and realizing people are missing.
Near as i can tell he got everyone. I'm sure he missed some dialogue-less background extras just there for reaction shots but he seems to have gotten everything that had dialogue or was recognizably seen for more than one panel.
-
The new chapter of Dragon Ball Super was pretty good.
! I thought it was interesting we know now that the evil half of Buu have God ki. I'm continuing to enjoy the plot development for this storyline, since it so reminding me of the Piccolo Daimao arc in some ways.
-
The new chapter of Dragon Ball Super was pretty good.
! I thought it was interesting we know now that the evil half of Buu have God ki. I'm continuing to enjoy the plot development for this storyline, since it so reminding me of the Piccolo Daimao arc in some ways.
Yeah, it's definitely interesting, just one thing confuses me:
! Why are Vegeta and Goku so damned sure they're way stronger than Moro? Moro literally moped the floor with the two of them at the same time. Yes, by absorbing/depriving them of their energy, but that's a passive skill that he has, right? IT takes no effort from him to just progressively steal his opponent's energy. . .so how were they exactly planning on avoiding that?
-
Yeah, it's definitely interesting, just one thing confuses me:
! Why are Vegeta and Goku so damned sure they're way stronger than Moro? Moro literally moped the floor with the two of them at the same time. Yes, by absorbing/depriving them of their energy, but that's a passive skill that he has, right? IT takes no effort from him to just progressively steal his opponent's energy. . .so how were they exactly planning on avoiding that?
! But how can the evil half god ki if they could have sensed him all the way back in DBZ?
-
I still HATE the retcon they did it with the Potara. In the manga they clearly say that once you do the fusion,you can never come back separated. And the Vegeth's division was an exception,only because he was in Majin Bu's body(kinda forced,but still). In Super,they suddendly say "If two humans do the Potara fusion it lasts one hour". What?? I hated that so much.
-
Hey if you can except the asspull of Vegetto's fusion being cancelled out via Buu Energy Shenanigans you can accept Vegetto's fusion being cancelled out because of SSGSS energy shenanigans…..that and with Shin & Kibito's potara fusion being undone even before that by a wish (which even in canon as far as I know was never stated to not be a viable option to undo Potara fusion) it wouldn't have stayed permanent anyway.
Given how broken Vegetto is.
-
Hey if you can except the asspull of Vegetto's fusion being cancelled out via Buu Energy Shenanigans you can accept Vegetto's fusion being cancelled out because of SSGSS energy shenanigans…..that and with Shin & Kibito's potara fusion being undone even before that by a wish (which even in canon as far as I know was never stated to not be a viable option to undo Potara fusion) it wouldn't have stayed permanent anyway.
Given how broken Vegetto is.
Nope they say that if you are not a God the fusion last only 1 hour. But in the original manga during the Bu arc they crearly say "You will never come back separated". Goku makes also a joke "This means i will have to go to school" (because he was planning to do the fusion with Gohan).
-
You can chalk that up to Shin just being incompetent and knowing literally nothing about his job or the people he was dealing with.
"Didn't know how the Potara worked" is right up there with "Buu always looked like that" and "holding Gohan in place so the badguys can steal a full half of the energy they need is a GOOD idea" and "II have paid zero attention to how strong these Saiyans are" and "I have been paying zero attention to the planet Buu's prison is on"
-
Basically anything that happens in dragonball you can chalk up to Shin being incompetent in some way, shape, or form
-
I mean,his plan was literally "Let the badguy steal all the energy from this guy and we'll follow him, and then we'll group attack whatever we can. I have no idea what to do when we face Dabura."
Like, he didn't for even one second think to ask "Hey, can any of you sense energy? There's a new large power somewhere on the planet…." Goku could have just instant movement popped them right there. Or you know, there's a lookout from which God watches things, maybe he could help? ANd even barring that, pick up the dragonballs and ask the dragon to tell you where they are? I mean Bulma was able to gather them all up in like 20 minutes that same day so....
I can ALMOST excuse him not grasping just how strong his allies were because they'd gotten that strong within the last ten years which is nothing on the cosmic scale and its implied their Pre-Android training \ levels would have been overwhelmed... but the dragonballs had been there for centuries.
Also, you can recruit dead people so go grab a couple other strong guys to help out, like filler character Pikuhan that Goku had just been hanging out with who was Cell level strong. Or go grab canon character AKuman who explodes anyone that has evil in their hearts. And Arale who apparently is still up to par due to gag strength. And don't just leave Android 18 at the tournament for goofs, she's one of the best fighters, take her with! Etc. Just... ugh..
-
God of creation
Worried about intergalactic threats
Completely neglects Freeza's and Cell's existences.
Doesn't even approach the crew before the tournament to plan ahead
Doesn't even do the creation part of his job
Good going, Shin!
-
I still HATE the retcon they did it with the Potara. In the manga they clearly say that once you do the fusion,you can never come back separated. And the Vegeth's division was an exception,only because he was in Majin Bu's body(kinda forced,but still). In Super,they suddendly say "If two humans do the Potara fusion it lasts one hour". What?? I hated that so much.
What bothers me is how useless it is. Because it's the SECOND retcon(if you wanna call it that) in Super involving the Potara.
We're shown at the start of the series that the Potara COULD be undone with the Namekian Dragon Balls.
But they needed to give Trunks a reason for a random power up I guess.
-
To be fair, aside from Beerus, do any gods in Dragon Ball actually do their jobs? They've always seemed pretty useless to me.
-
I don't even know what to say.
http://canvas.pantone.com/gallery/74363441/HETAP-Energy-Soda-Drink-Packaging-Study
-
To be fair, aside from Beerus, do any gods in Dragon Ball actually do their jobs? They've always seemed pretty useless to me.
I could be wrong, but wasn't even the canon reason why King Kai still has a job being the Kai's were too lazy to pick a replacement, so they let him keep doing it while dead?
-
Reminder that U7 only has 28 planets with sentient life on them because Shin is incompetent and Beerus only eats and sleeps.
-
Shin is incompetent and Beerus only eats and sleeps.
Given Shin's done jack shit, can we really say there is any difference between him and Beerus?
I mean as far as the Super manga goes, at least Beerus has fishing contests with the Oracle fish.
We now have at least one recreational activity for Beerus. And none for Shin.
He probably eats mayonnaise, sleeps, then ponders his existence.
-
Gotta say, I agree. . .though not on every front. I find Moro pretty boring so far. Also, this is suffering from the same ailments as the Goku Black arc, which is. . .we've been through this before. It's reeeeally hard no to get massive flashbacks from the Namek arc.
But this last few chapters added a new element, and that is. . .well, just read it. It made me really happy to see it, honestly.
Spoilers in case you want to ruin the surprise:
! After being blueballed to hell and back with Buu, he's basically back in full force here. He's the de-facto protagonist of the arc, kind of like Trunks was in the anime version of the Goku Black arc, and he's actually kicking asses and taking names. Of course the arc's still not finished, and seeing the uber messy narrative of the Goku Black arc and, to a certain extent, the Tournament arc, I can sort of see the whole "get defeated - run - hide - heal - fight again - get defeated - run - hide - heal - repeat ad nauseam" shtick that has become par for the course with DBSuper happening again, but at least for the past two chapters and, from what I gather, at least the next few ones, Buu is a massive player in this arc. So, if only to see that happen, go read it.
Also, gotta say, and that's something I've said for a long time, the fighting is way better in the manga. It's more creative, more Toriyama-like (and Toriyama-lite, too, of course). The anime feels like what people think DBZ fights are like, but. . .that's not really how Toriyama paced-crafted his fights, at all. The manga version is the most similar experience out of the two, even if it's still not stellar by a long shot.
The reason why I like Moro is mostly because of the principles behind how he fights. He's not actually very strong, just uses abilities and trickery to his advantage. It's like if you combined Gero and King Piccolo, along with similarly to those two, also connecting him to some neat lore. (I always liked both the demon and Red Ribbon angles we got with both respectively, part of me dislikes it that Gero specifically got dropped so quickly because he was such a neat contrast to other villains and pretty crafty. I really dig that we got that type of antagonist as the main antagonist now in this arc with Moro.)
On a purely character level outside of the story behind him, I think Moro's pretty basic, but I'm also giving leeway because of how large-scale and massive of a threat Moro seems to be presented and set up as and how it feels like this arc would be a longer one based on how he is being built up and that we do get more to him. He's like a more balanced version of King Piccolo because Gero's and King Piccolo's traits are sort of merged together. Arrogant, but not only arrogant. Smart, but not only smart, a balance of both.
I hope this final wish he has gives him some more characterization, it's reveal won't quite lead to the end of the arc because of how big of a threat Moro has been set up as (I feel it would be off if he really went down just like that) and most importantly, the solution won't be just punching really hard again (which I can see could happen based on some details at the end of the chapter).
I really do love the pretty airtight plotting this arc, though. Maybe some loose details like it taking Moro so long to find the Dragon Balls are iffy, but the most important stuff is explained and the source of tension (and mystery) being the Dragon Balls again is really cool and this is all coming from the manga, which I personally think up to the end of the previous arc was a really dull plot summary with no personality.
Anyway, as far as action goes manga vs. anime, I think some of the ToP stuff (and later the Broly movie) is pretty inspired, before that stuff, I think it's all pretty bland, with occassionally nice-looking moments) and same goes for the manga before this arc. However, what I give to the manga is that the world outside the stuff we know in U7 feels much more like DB, in the anime it just occassionally feels like generic location X instead of fitting into the DB world in terms of design. Despite not focusing on worldbuilding much, I think DB's world does have specific design ideas.
I like the Super anime, but the action was bland for a lot of the time.
On another different note, I think Heroes has had some neat moments these past few episodes in terms of animation and direction. The newest episode (ep. 13) had some really kickass action. I recommend checking it out just for some fun eye candy.
-
He probably eats mayonnaise, sleeps, then ponders his existence.
Considering he's among the last of his kind in the main universe makes sense.
-
Most gods in dragon Ball were chosen by their masters or peers, shin just happened to survive a monster and kill the old man with the leash.
Guru had a planet to chose from, old earth god had garlic and kami, and kami sacrificed a ton to get the post, then dende was picked by the new god of namek.
Then the zamazu incident put the apprenticeship of gods front and center, and that old man knew to disown the prick. Goku and Vegeta are being groomed for the post of god of destruction, but shin and the elder are just not trying.
I bet shin killed the other gods that should have arisen in the time that Buu sleept. To keep the universe on road to Oblivion.
-
so they let him keep doing it while dead?
Not surprising since King Kai is the most competent deity in Universe 7 by a huge margin.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
shin and the elder are just not trying.
They don't even have to look far; pretty much all of the decent candidates for either position are on Earth.
I still think Piccolo and Seventeen as Supreme Kai and God of Destruction would be the best possible outcome for Universe 7.
-
Back when it seemed like Beerus might actually be a serious deal at some point, I thought maybe Vegeta would find out HE was the one that order Frieza to blow up his planet and then they'd have to have it out, ending with vegeta becoming the new god of destruction…. but actually that really doesnt suit him anymore.
-
So I have been trying to figure out what the current third wish might be other than the expected immortality that everyone seems to want (seriously?). There are a lot of interesting potentials, but one that came to mind was what if he resurrected evil buu? Wouldn't make any sense, but could be a fun situation.
-
Back when it seemed like Beerus might actually be a serious deal at some point, I thought maybe Vegeta would find out HE was the one that order Frieza to blow up his planet and then they'd have to have it out, ending with vegeta becoming the new god of destruction…. but actually that really doesnt suit him anymore.
Wouldn't that had required Vegeta to actually give a damn about his people which we knew by him murdering Nappa he didn't?
Not surprising since King Kai is the most competent deity in Universe 7 by a huge margin.
The same King Kai who tried to talk Piccolo out of going to Namek something that would've actually had been a bad idea?
I still think Piccolo and Seventeen as Supreme Kai and God of Destruction would be the best possible outcome for Universe 7.
They're already serving effectively useless roles. But I guess the difference here is prestige.
-
The same King Kai who tried to talk Piccolo out of going to Namek something that would've actually had been a bad idea?
His rivals for that position are Shin, Beerus, and Kami.
-
His rivals for that position are Shin, Beerus, and Kami.
Well shit that's that's like having to choose between eating dirt, ash, paint, or licorice.
-
Wouldn't that had required Vegeta to actually give a damn about his people which we knew by him murdering Nappa he didn't?
You know, for a guy who supposedly took great pride in his race, he sure never gave a shit about any of them.
Or, I dunno, maybe it was his nobility he took pride in.
-
You know, for a guy who supposedly took great pride in his race, he sure never gave a shit about any of them.
Or, I dunno, maybe it was his nobility he took pride in.
It was pride in himself which is why he lost his shit every time someone upstaged him or whooped the ass.
-
That's why the whole idea of people wanting him to finally get a win against Freeza that I see around has been wierd to me.
His idea of wanting revenge has always been sort of selfish and one thing that has been going on with him has been letting go and moving on.
The ways this idea about getting his win against Freeza I think could work would have to involve a selfless reasoning, not about his grudge, but protection or wishing to stop him because he's evil and a danger to the whole world (like he did in the Broly movie).
But I so often see the idea of "Vegeta should get the win to avenge his race" and that's odd and kind of missing the point to me.
Vegeta never cared about the Saiyans. It's all his own ego-stroking for the longest time until he starts to actually care about others. Right now, I think he might probably actually be okay with not reviving the Saiyans because of moral reasons (they were a huge danger to the universe), not just because he doesn't care.
But his whole plea to Goku on Namek was about pride and dignity, which Goku could understand and which is some very interesting character depth, from what I get, the old English dub made Vegeta's deal marginally less interesting and made him a victim only instead of him also being a villain and this is where this constant misread of his character comes from.
Part of his arc, up to teaching Cabba, might actually also be that he cares more now, too, but at first he definitely didn't at all. This is even really clearly spelled out in the Broly movie.
His plea on Namek was sort of the point where he showed the most care in that Freeza stole away the Saiyans' freedom and dignity and Vegeta asked a Saiyan, Goku, to defeat Freeza in his stead. It's almost contradictory even back then if you think about it.
-
Wouldn't that had required Vegeta to actually give a damn about his people which we knew by him murdering Nappa he didn't?
Vegeta held it against Frieza that he destroyed the planet. ANd he's grown and changed since back then. He even takes pride in universe 6 Saiyans now, and they're not even his.
Him not caring about Raditz and Nappa was because they were grunt soldiers that had proven to be useless, and he was the prince… but the planet as a whole, and his father, he cared about.
The same King Kai who tried to talk Piccolo out of going to Namek something that would've actually had been a bad idea?
He was right though. Piccollo on Namek was completely useless and put the dragonballs at risk. If he hadn't merged with Nail, he would have been zero help, and even then he only stalled Frieza for a few minutes. Ultimately they WOULD have been better off with him not going. Maybe they'd all have died before Goku went super, but… It was actually the right call.
-
As a kid he didn't seem to care much the planet was destroyed, at least not in the new Broly movie.
But in general, I think it's a sort of selective caring because of the whole higher class warrior thing at first and then it broadens because of his arc. It's just never highlighted in the story properly. Nobody calls him out on that, which actually would be something interesting to do or at least briefly highlight, I think.
Like, constantly talks about Saiyan pride and stuff, but never cared when the Saiyans in universe 7 were murdered/he killed one himself.
-
Vegeta held it against Frieza that he destroyed the planet. ANd he's grown and changed since back then. He even takes pride in universe 6 Saiyans now, and they're not even his.
Well yeah now before all that dude was pretty much a self centered prick who never considered ever using the DragonBalls to resurrect his people. And even now hasn't ever as far as I know considered doing that.
Him not caring about Raditz and Nappa was because they were grunt soldiers that had proven to be useless,
Raditz maybe but it seems kind of weird to consider Nappa useless cause he couldn't beat Goku (something Vegeta couldn't do until he transformed)…...after he did all the work moping the floor with everyone else bar Yamcha...and kinda sorta Chaiotzu.
He was right though. Piccollo on Namek was completely useless and put the dragonballs at risk. If he hadn't merged with Nail, he would have been zero help, and even then he only stalled Frieza for a few minutes.
Yeah that was kinda of the good thing since otherwise Frieza would've simply walked over everyone otherwise.
Ultimately they WOULD have been better off with him not going. Maybe they'd all have died before Goku went super,
Or worst case scenario Frieza would've just blown Namek to hell and killed everyone outright being that by that point Guru was already dead. And then maybe go to earth after Piccolo & Kami get wished back and blow up the earth too.
Basically the were in potential lose-lose situation regardless.
-
Seriously, Vegeta didn't even care about his own son (initially). I guess because he was an unworthy "half-breed" or something?
-
Well, we don't have the off camera details beyond what Team Four Star did, but it seems like he and Bulma hadn't really hooked up romantically and were more just some one offs. No personal attachment to be had.
Then he grew a heart over the next 7 years (or 9 I guess with the time room)
-
Seriously, Vegeta didn't even care about his own son (initially). I guess because he was an unworthy "half-breed" or something?
I like to think that was more because he really didn't know how to be a father given he lost his at such an early age…....that in addition to not being very familiar with the concept of compassion.
-
How long till they revive cell and make him a constant character "who may betray us at any moment" like freeza is now
I mean it's gonna happen at some point right?
-
Freeza was popular is the difference
-
Also Cell's spots make him a pain to animate.
If they were going to test the waters with him they had a tournament with a million characters where he could have had en expy, and he didn't. They had Frieza clones, Piccollo clones, and Broly clones, but nothing like Cell or Buu. (And that Buu has gotten canned from two tournaments now and even pulled from the opening as a bait and switch shows how little they care about him.)
Hell, its amazing Tien was even on the team given they apparently hate him. Must be why he did nothing.