Luffy has exhaust his body in so many ways, someday he has to pay the toll for it.
But knowing how many parallels Oda loves to create to the past generation, it isn´t far fetched to think of Luffy (the guy who will become PK) having the same faith as Roger, who also was struck by an illness.
Would be a perfect opportunity for Chopper to step in and proof history can be changed.
Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !
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Just to add to the Nami + Zeus power up deal!
If the straw hats pirates end on good terms with the BM pirates it is also possible BM could create a whole new thundercloud homie for Nami.
She could potentially use the soul of Moscato, Opera or maybe even Perospero if she kills him.
Nami also has BMs vivre card that can be used to control the homie.
This homie would then most likely continue to exist even if BM dies, since the rule of her DF is that a soul cannot be inserted in a dead body.
Nami would then lose the vivre card but it is easy for Oda to find a reason why the homie would stay loyal.
This also fits the theme with Oda not killing characters since the whole soul of the dead continues to live on in the homies. -
The Straw Hats can't end up on good terms with Big Mom. They went through all that effort just to nab a copy of the poneglyph. If they end up on good terms because they saved her life, Big Mom would just give them a copy. I find it hard to believe Big Mom would so grateful as to give Nami a Zeus, but not a copy of the poneglyph.
Then again, logic hasn't been Oda's strong point in this arc.
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It is heavily implied in this arc that Pudding have used her DF in a large scale before so I think we are bound for a huge twist.
I am not 100% sure it would end in good terms but there are hints pulling in that direction.
With this DF fruit in play I think we should be more open to different endings of the arc and not just think it is 0% chance for that the SHs and BM ending on good terms. -
Logic been fine this arc, just more so what people expectations are for this arc and people not getting what they want.
Can't wait for Big Mom to not go down her self but defeated not physically (her crew will though) and to see people freak out.
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I think much of the disappointment of this arc stems from the fans expecting a shourt detour before Wano and Reverie and it did not turn out that way.
Many also wanted 1vs1 fights that still have not happened a part from Luffy vs Katakuri.(And kinda Cracker but not)
Personally I think Oda is hesitant to do so because most likely where Luffy will defeat BM mano a mano is in Elbaph and that would make many of the powerhouses to BM seem like a small threat if they already were defeated.
I am still hoping on Brook vs Pumpkin Head homie and Chopper vs Mont D'or.
Though I think Mont D'or somehow has to be defeated if not in a 1vs1, so the prisoners and animals in the books in the Whole Cake Chateu are able to escape. It would be really unlike Oda to not give the prisoners and animals their freedom. -
I haven't really seen that much disappointment with the current arc, except for a person or 2 here and there, mostly due to Greg's cake theory coming true and those people being butthurt that a freaking Yonkouuu!!1 is going down with a cake. There have been criticisms of certain specific points of the arc. Some people enjoyed the beginning more, others liked the wedding, while others prefer the chase (not many though lol). This is definitely most people's favourite post-TS asc, including mine. My biggest cons are the repetitive scenes of Big Mom chasing after wedding cake again and again, the shitty Vinsmokes (some of the worst characters and backstories Oda has written so far), and the Bropper plot being severely underutilized and mostly off screened.
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I think much of the disappointment of this arc stems from the fans expecting a shourt detour before Wano and Reverie and it did not turn out that way.
Many also wanted 1vs1 fights that still have not happened a part from Luffy vs Katakuri.(And kinda Cracker but not)
Personally I think Oda is hesitant to do so because most likely where Luffy will defeat BM mano a mano is in Elbaph and that would make many of the powerhouses to BM seem like a small threat if they already were defeated.
I am still hoping on Brook vs Pumpkin Head homie and Chopper vs Mont D'or.
Though I think Mont D'or somehow has to be defeated if not in a 1vs1, so the prisoners and animals in the books in the Whole Cake Chateu are able to escape. It would be really unlike Oda to not give the prisoners and animals their freedom.Maybe for a lot of people, but for me personally that wasn't it. I knew ever since the Cracker fight this was going to be a major arc, regardless of the fact that Luffy wasn't strong enough to solo a Yonko yet. (I mean he wasn't strong enough to solo Fujitora either, but it didn't mean Dressrosa wasn't going to be a major arc. There he fought Doffy, here he fights Katakuri. There are always people to fight). In fact, I strongly disagree with the idea that Big Mom will even show up again. I think once her top brass are defeated, Oda won't recycle villains as villains again. He might recycle villains as allies, but I think the only exception to recycling villains as villains are the Navy. Big Mom is a swordswoman anyhow, and Luffy seldom fights swordspeople. (Cracker was the exception due to the fact that he had shit durability).
The problem is the lack of tension replaced by overrused cliches, and lazy cop outs to serious conundrums.
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@Kai:
The problem is the lack of tension replaced by overrused cliches, and lazy cop outs to serious conundrums.
There's been a repetition of "BM almost annihilates the strawhats but suddenly they survive". The way they survive makes sense but the same set-up is being reused over and over again to hype/introduce new things (green room, strawhat team attack, pedro's sacrifice..). That's my main gripe with this arc.
As for BM, I highly doubt she will come back as a full-fledged villain after this arc (villains are seldom recycled as villains). At most we might have her as a secondary villain in Elbaf being in cahoots with Loki.
While I mind little that BM might 'reform' by the cake + memory combination, I'm not a fan of empty talk from Luffy. He's repeated at least two times that he'll kick BM all the way around New World and I don't want that to be smoothed over easily. Not to mention that Pedro's sacrifice (if he's actually dead), Sanji's troubles etc. would all become downplayed.
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There's no 'hype' unless one has set unrealistic expectations for the flow of the story.
The only way one could have expected the Strawhats to have been defeated at any of the points you mentioned is if they felt that those junctions were truly leading to the final showdown. Everything from the status of the cake to manga volume covers tells us that, that was never the case, nor could it easily have assumed to be.
Oda doesn't usually write lines for Luffy that he doesn't one day intend to deliver on, but how tkey come about is usually the key.
As for Mom, I currently believe one of the most interesting results would be if Mom and the family ended friendly, but ultimately she wants Sanji for herself as a chef if she doesn't realize the kind of power he would wield over her and selfishly pursues him while the family remains deeply indebted to the SH's so on the surface they must keep the act of pursuing them, even though they're indebted to them.
Not married to that idea as actually happening, but it holds the most potential for drama.
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As for Mom, I currently believe one of the most interesting results would be if Mom and the family ended friendly, but ultimately she wants Sanji for herself as a chef if she doesn't realize the kind of power he would wield over her and selfishly pursues him while the family remains deeply indebted to the SH's so on the surface they must keep the act of pursuing them, even though they're indebted to them.
That's the one I think will happen too! Sort of begrudgingly indebted to the strawhats (slightly similar to crocodile in Maarineford)
As for 'hype' I phrased that wrongly. It's the use of the same scenario (BM getting too close for comfort) for a 'dramatic' turn around (not much could be done on this front because it's a chase at the end of the day).
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Certainly, but hype or no hype, the point remains that if we have realistic expectations for the story, the excitement isn't in 'will this be the final showdown?' it's literally in 'well how're they going to get out of this pinch?'
This is an aspect of the series that Robbybevard pointed out a while ago and I think holds true, b/c Oda does have a pattern to his arcs the big picture is relatively easy to determine because it must hit pre-determined beats. It's the week-to-week skirmishes that are far more difficult to accurately predict which, to me at least, is a large part of the attraction.
That's coming off of following the series for 17 years though, so I can understand if that's not the same for everyone.
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Now that you've mentioned it I do recall the same weekly tug-of-war build-up but I haven't been a weekly fan in a long time so these patterns have slipped my mind.
I can nitpick all I want but ultimately they were minor gripes and I still like the over-all story. I'll have to give the full arc a re-read once it's over to compare it with previous arcs.
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Nit-picking is a good thing.
Because of my proximity to the series and length/extent of my fandom some like to think I'll defend any choice Oda-san makes to the death.
But the truth is, I will and have been his harshest critic, even to the man himself, when the story earns it. But what we're seeing here is all classic Oda. If a fan has grown tired of it that's a valid criticism I can get behind despite not agreeing with it however, I do believe that despite following structure, what he's doing here, he's doing quite well this time around. Refreshingly so.
Only thing I'm upset about is the lack of 1V1's but while the crew isn't together I wouldn't want to see the kind of lengthy story that would require anyway.
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AP forums is the second time I've branched into talking with other fans about any anime so I'm getting used to all the differing opinions here. I like the overall atmosphere here (the first forum i was on was….a bit excessive with GOda worshipping...) and I didn't even know who you were until some other fans recommended that I read through this thread (and I'm glad they did!). So thanks for all the posts and extra information/trivia you provide (the youtube vids were very fun to watch)!
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Nit-picking is a good thing.
Because of my proximity to the series and length/extent of my fandom some like to think I'll defend any choice Oda-san makes to the death.
But the truth is, I will and have been his harshest critic, even to the man himself, when the story earns it. But what we're seeing here is all classic Oda. If a fan has grown tired of it that's a valid criticism I can get behind despite not agreeing with it however, I do believe that despite following structure, what he's doing here, he's doing quite well this time around. Refreshingly so.
Only thing I'm upset about is the lack of 1V1's but while the crew isn't together I wouldn't want to see the kind of lengthy story that would require anyway.
I keep hearing this, from Stephen too, but WCI is officially the 2nd longest arc in One Piece as of last chapter. We're past that bridge. We could have easily slotted in some fights, by replacing all those redundant panels of BM screaming "Wedding Cake" over and over.
The point of the fights, isn't just for the sake of action itself, but it gives the characters some tangible achievements.
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WCI is actually the arc that firmly reminded me that is ultimately okay if everyone doesn't get to fight. There's other ways to get those tangible achievements, as Brook for example has demonstrated multiple times.
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@Kai:
I keep hearing this, from Stephen too, but WCI is officially the 2nd longest arc in One Piece as of last chapter. We're past that bridge. We could have easily slotted in some fights, by replacing all those redundant panels of BM screaming "Wedding Cake" over and over.
Honestly, that's very few panels. Almost the entire time Big Mom has been doing something during her craving rampage.
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Certainly, but hype or no hype, the point remains that if we have realistic expectations for the story, the excitement isn't in 'will this be the final showdown?' it's literally in 'well how're they going to get out of this pinch?'
This is an aspect of the series that Robbybevard pointed out a while ago and I think holds true, b/c Oda does have a pattern to his arcs the big picture is relatively easy to determine because it must hit pre-determined beats. It's the week-to-week skirmishes that are far more difficult to accurately predict which, to me at least, is a large part of the attraction.
That's coming off of following the series for 17 years though, so I can understand if that's not the same for everyone.
True but there's only so many times it can be used on quick succession. This chase for far has had
1. Tamatebako Explosion
2. Nami Thunderbolt
3. Pedro Explosion
4. Surfing Mama
5. Carrot breaking the pincers
6. The Strawhats in 890Now over 17 chapters that's not as much s it may seem like but to keep up the tension til the end cutting back and forth too many times or focusing too long can make the threat feel emptier. Oda's been doing good so far at keeping big mom threatening and the shaves feel close but it's a tough line to balance. There's certainly been more close shaves here than in any arc before.
We know or think shit's gonna look the absolute worst before sanji shows up so until then imo it will be interesting to see how oda handles that part. Sanji will have to get the cake there at the same time under difficulties due to the BMP suspecting poison. Luffy still has his fight to either wrap up or at the very least knock katakuri on his back before sanji gets there.
Oda really has thrown plenty of balls into the air here
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@Kaido:
Honestly, that's very few panels. Almost the entire time Big Mom has been doing something during her craving rampage.
Yeah this isnt dressrosa, where luffy went chapters were he slapped mooks between the toys awakening and usopp's sniping
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@Kai:
I keep hearing this, from Stephen too, but WCI is officially the 2nd longest arc in One Piece as of last chapter. We're past that bridge. We could have easily slotted in some fights, by replacing all those redundant panels of BM screaming "Wedding Cake" over and over.
Dresserossa was 101 chapters and Water 7 was 119. And if you count Jaya/Skypeia as part of a whole (and you should) that was 84 chapters. Just the Skypeia section was 65.
Whole Cake is 65 chapters and counting. This arc is long, and its probably got 10-15 chapters to go, but it's still a year away from being the second longest. (The only way to reach that conclusion is if you break Water 7 into three parts.) It'll probably end at roughly the same length as Skypeia.
For comparison, other "short" arcs inclded Alabasta at 62, Thriller Bark at 47, and Fishman Island at 50. Marineford was 30. Basically everything else is 25 chapters or less. (Syrup, Baratie, Arlong, Drum, Little Garden, Foxy, Amazon Lilly, Impel Down,Sabondy)
The point of the fights, isn't just for the sake of action itself, but it gives the characters some tangible achievements.
Brook stole rubbing of poneglyphs and just took out a boat and hurt big mom's weapons.
Nami stole BM's cloud and shocked her.
Sanji is airlifting a cake and taking out goons and the cake is going to be the victory condition, impressing his fiancee, all while giving the finger to his dad.
Jimbe steered the boat through a tidal wave that couldn't be survived otherwise.They're getting tangible achievements based on their special skills, things that only they can do, that don't have to be 1 on 1 fights.
Back at Enies Lobby Usopp didn't get a 1 on 1 fight even though everyone else did, but his achievements were still important and part of saving the day and his growth. (And then on Thriller Bark he had one of the only lengthy solo fights.)
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AP forums is the second time I've branched into talking with other fans about any anime so I'm getting used to all the differing opinions here. I like the overall atmosphere here (the first forum i was on was….a bit excessive with GOda worshipping...) and I didn't even know who you were until some other fans recommended that I read through this thread (and I'm glad they did!). So thanks for all the posts and extra information/trivia you provide (the youtube vids were very fun to watch)!
Always good to have great fan discussion. I'm not here too much but the regulars here are good people. As far as Supernovas, Count Mario knows his stuff so def. keep an eye on his posts.
Yeah, not entirely sure where you got that length figure Kai but Robby has the right of it.
Now over 17 chapters that's not as much s it may seem like but to keep up the tension til the end cutting back and forth too many times or focusing too long can make the threat feel emptier.
I realize we're walking the line of objective/subjective (and I'm a fan of both) but if anything, those constant close calls should make the threat feel more real than anything else.
If Oda didn't have them in, THAT would make Mom and her gigantic family/crew look like total fools on thier own territory.
That's why it must be this way and why I respect it.
If we had one scene of the SH's getting away, sure, it would've been fine from a length perspective but Jesus, especially given that this is Mom's home turf, and I mean, literally the center of it, she would've looked like a TOTAL JOKE if we didn't have these constant skirmishes.
Instead, each time we've been given reasonable explanations for why she's getting away.
I have no compunctions discussing 890 because it's been released in Japan so if you haven't read it please keep that in mind, but what we see Mom doing onboard Sunny and the response of the crew, it's all perfect.
What did Oda set out to do? What was his purpose?
His purpose, as a whole, was to give each of his characters a standout moment with Mom. We've seen them deflecting her as they fled before, but this was a WB-style not showing the enemy your back-style defense of Sunny and their lives.
This is why Oda's not doing the same thing each time for the same purpose.
I'm sorry, but Jinbei holding his own against a sword against Mom while she still seems to be in a 'good' mood was awesome. We're still seeing Mom playing with her enemies here, she's not actually angry yet which is pretty much the stage Luffy should be getting to.
If you don't like how its portrayed, or you think he could do more, fine, I'll agree with that! But as for accomplishing the tasks he wanted to (showing the SH's holding their ground and BARELY deflecting Mom) in a single chapter, he totally succeeded. What's next is for Mom to come back with a PLAYTIME IS OVER retaliation. It's just how these things work, esp. One Piece.
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I haven't really seen that much disappointment with the current arc, except for a person or 2 here and there, mostly due to Greg's cake theory coming true and those people being butthurt that a freaking Yonkouuu!!1 is going down with a cake. There have been criticisms of certain specific points of the arc. Some people enjoyed the beginning more, others liked the wedding, while others prefer the chase (not many though lol). This is definitely most people's favourite post-TS asc, including mine.
You are right! I think I lumped in my disappointments to the rest on the fanbase without really thinking to much about it. Though even with these disappointments I think this arc is still one of my favorites and I am really excited how Oda is going to end this arc.
@Kai:
In fact, I strongly disagree with the idea that Big Mom will even show up again. I think once her top brass are defeated, Oda won't recycle villains as villains again. He might recycle villains as allies, but I think the only exception to recycling villains as villains are the Navy. Big Mom is a swordswoman anyhow, and Luffy seldom fights swordspeople. (Cracker was the exception due to the fact that he had shit durability).
First of I am 99,9% sure that it will not be the strongest giant who will be the main villain on Elbaph(who many assume to be Loki). That is because Hajrudin said the following in chapter 770 "It is my dream to be king of all the giants". Then Luffy/SHs beating the strongest giant would trample on the dreams to Hajrudin, something I am quite confident Oda will not do.
I do also have second reason for BM showing up in Elbaph besides her flashback. Check out:
In short this video explains why the ponegliff Jinbe brought to BM is the one to tell the location of Uranus. She also has Pudding that in the future potentially can decode the Ponegliff to tell her the location.
From the The One Piece Connection they say the following about Uranus "Moreover, in Greek mythology, Uranuss blood rained down and created giants" It really sounds like Uranus is going to be in Elbaph!
Could then Uranus be a weapon that creates giants? If so that would that not allign perfectly with BMs dream?!?!
If this happens to be true then BM not showing in Elbaph up would be super strange if you ask me.P.S. Many believe Zou to be Uranus but if Uranus is able to make giants then Zou could easily be the product of Uranus since Zou is a giant elephant and all…
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So how much credit does sanji even get for the cake since pudding, cliffon and those fodder cooks contributed as much as him.
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@uniaka:
So how much credit does sanji even get for the cake since pudding, cliffon and those fodder cooks contributed as much as him.
I imagine his contribution of the secret ingredients/prep of the frosting (and filling?) which has been proven twice to be nearly fatal and not simply delicious (i.e. the point of his involvement) will be sufficient.
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Dresserossa was 101 chapters and Water 7 was 119. And if you count Jaya/Skypeia as part of a whole (and you should) that was 84 chapters. Just the Skypeia section was 65.
Whole Cake is 65 chapters and counting. This arc is long, and its probably got 10-15 chapters to go, but it's still a year away from being the second longest. (The only way to reach that conclusion is if you break Water 7 into three parts.) It'll probably end at roughly the same length as Skypeia.
For comparison, other "short" arcs inclded Alabasta at 62, Thriller Bark at 47, and Fishman Island at 50. Marineford was 30. Basically everything else is 25 chapters or less. (Syrup, Baratie, Arlong, Drum, Little Garden, Foxy, Amazon Lilly, Impel Down,Sabondy)
Brook stole rubbing of poneglyphs and just took out a boat and hurt big mom's weapons.
Nami stole BM's cloud and shocked her.
Sanji is airlifting a cake and taking out goons and the cake is going to be the victory condition, impressing his fiancee, all while giving the finger to his dad.
Jimbe steered the boat through a tidal wave that couldn't be survived otherwise.They're getting tangible achievements based on their special skills, things that only they can do, that don't have to be 1 on 1 fights.
Back at Enies Lobby Usopp didn't get a 1 on 1 fight even though everyone else did, but his achievements were still important and part of saving the day and his growth. (And then on Thriller Bark he had one of the only lengthy solo fights.)
No mate. Youre combining arcs. Water 7 and Ennies Lobby are different arcs. Thats like aaying Punk Hazard and Dressrosa are one.
In fact, at the start of Water 7 Rob Lucci wasnt even meant to be a villain. Go to the wiki for the official arc dates.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
You are right! I think I lumped in my disappointments to the rest on the fanbase without really thinking to much about it. Though even with these disappointments I think this arc is still one of my favorites and I am really excited how Oda is going to end this arc.
First of I am 99,9% sure that it will not be the strongest giant who will be the main villain on Elbaph(who many assume to be Loki). That is because Hajrudin said the following in chapter 770 "It is my dream to be king of all the giants". Then Luffy/SHs beating the strongest giant would trample on the dreams to Hajrudin, something I am quite confident Oda will not do.
I do also have second reason for BM showing up in Elbaph besides her flashback. Check out:
In short this video explains why the ponegliff Jinbe brought to BM is the one to tell the location of Uranus. She also has Pudding that in the future potentially can decode the Ponegliff to tell her the location.
From the The One Piece Connection they say the following about Uranus "Moreover, in Greek mythology, Uranuss blood rained down and created giants" It really sounds like Uranus is going to be in Elbaph!
Could then Uranus be a weapon that creates giants? If so that would that not allign perfectly with BMs dream?!?!
If this happens to be true then BM not showing in Elbaph up would be super strange if you ask me.P.S. Many believe Zou to be Uranus but if Uranus is able to make giants then Zou could easily be the product of Uranus since Zou is a giant elephant and all…
So what, you think Katakuri and Cracker will show up again as villains after being defeated? Thwres no precedence for that.
Like it or not BM has lost all pizzazz as a villain after the last few chapters. Having to fight someone you just saved is not how Oda writes stories. Thats like Luffy saving Kaido or Blackbeard and then fighting them
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@Kai:
No mate. Youre combining arcs. Water 7 and Ennies Lobby are different arcs.
They start at Water 7, separate from Usopp and Robin, have the mystery of Franky, have the drama of Going Merry, get their buts kicked by Lucchi and co., and literally nothing is resolved whatsoever.
Then they go to Enies Lobby to fight the same villains they've been fighting, for the same stakes they've been fighting for, with the same crew drama.
They then return to Water 7 for a lengthy period to finish resolving everything.
It's THE SAME ARC, it just happens to be in more than one location.
Alabasta had them visit multiple cities, so did Skypeia. Drum had a part in the city and a part in the mountains, same arc. Fishman Island had multiple locations. Cocoyashi Village and Arlong Park aren't separate arcs either just because they moved locations to fight. There is no "Usopp hometown arc" and "beach arc" for Syrup village.
Just moving between places to have the fight elsewhere doesn't make it a brand new arc.
In fact, at the start of Water 7 Rob Lucci wasnt even meant to be a villain.
First I've ever heard this. Where did you get that from?
Even if it wasn't Oda's intent at the start, Luchhi still ended up being the main villain in the final version of the story. Regardless of what his intentions at the start may have been, the final result had Lucchi as the badguy.
Thats like aaying Punk Hazard and Dressrosa are one.
Punk Hazard had a clearly defined goal and enemy to beat, and side characters specific to that arc. They completed their goal, beat the enemies, and said farewell to the side characters. Clean ending, everything is finished, separate arc. Some of those threads lead into the next arc, same as Little Garden being connected to Alabasta, but they are clearly distinct.
Water 7 and Enies Lobby are NOT separate. Nothing was finished in Water 7, and they returned to it after fighting. (Also, the Viz volumes put all of it together as just "Water 7." So if you need an actual official source, there's that.)
If you insist on breaking that up just because they move somewhere else to fight, then Cake Island is at least 3 seperate arcs by now.
Side note, the wiki is unreliable in a lot of ways. It cherry picks what it focuses on, over-emphasizes things, replaces manga images with anime at the first opportunity, and often gets things wrong (such as insisting Koala was a boy or Doflamingo was dead.) ANd it makes really weird arbitrary decisions for divisions. It's good for checking dates, or things like birthdays or character heights, but its not by any means an official source to be referred to.
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Don't forget the 10 or so chapters on that train.
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Is it wrong to combine arcs to make a bigger arc because those individual ones are incomplete without the other set pieces?
East Blue was the recruitment arc and ended in Logue Town.
From meeting Laboon, Whiskey Peak, Little Garden, Drum and Alabasta would be the Baroque Works arc.
Jaya and Skypeia are a set
Long Ring Island is standalone, but you could out it as a prologue to Water Seven and EL.
Thriller Bark
Sabaody, Impel Down and the War…etc.So I would put Punk Huzard and Dressrosa together in the bigger picture that would be Kaido.
Bellamy came back as a villain. I don't think CP0 will be ever be on Luffy's side so Lucci should be a villain again.
Is the indebted, pretend to chase scenario the same as with the citizens of Dressrosa covering for Luffy against Fujitora?
Hidden:
Try out my first game! All feedback is welcome, enjoy and thanks. Heroine: Kiku
Hidden:
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@K.:
Long Ring Island is standalone, but you could out it as a prologue to Water Seven and EL.
Thematically Long Ring Island definitely belongs to the greater "Water 7"-Saga. The thing with the ship in need of being repaired, a carpenter as an addition to the crew being mentioned, Usopp's group getting defeated in the first round of the Davy back Fight (and Usopp suffering because of that) and of course meeting Aokiji who introduces Nico Robin's past and mentions Luffy's grandfather many important plot points who are going to become important later at Water 7 are introduced there.
Carrot's still never gonna join the crew. 
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They start at Water 7, separate from Usopp and Robin, have the mystery of Franky, have the drama of Going Merry, get their buts kicked by Lucchi and co., and literally nothing is resolved whatsoever.
What does full resolution have to do with anything? Nothing is fully resolved in any arc. How is that any different than Sanji getting separated from the crew in Dressrosa, going to Zou, then having to go to WCI to get him back? An arc is defined by a story intrinsically tied to each island. By that logic you can tie many arcs together (Sabaody/Amazon Lily/Impel Down, PH/Dressrosa). Let's make WCI and Zou as part of Dressrosa then because the crew is not reunited after Dressrosa.
As I said, the whole point of Water 7 was to get Franky as a member. Ennies Lobby developed later, when Oda retconned Rob Lucci into a villain. If it was 1 arc, Oda would have decided Lucci was the main villain without the arc starting.
@K.:
Is it wrong to combine arcs to make a bigger arc because those individual ones are incomplete without the other set pieces?
Yes, because there is always a degree of incompleteness in every arc. No arc ever fully resolves all the branches it instigates.
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First I've ever heard this. Where did you get that from?
_"To tell you the truth, Water 7 arc was a story to let shipwright join Straw Hats. Franky joining them and Straw Hats saying goodbye to Going Merry in the finale were the only events I determined to draw before the arc started."
"After drawing various characters, I wondered, "Whom should I make a villain? OK. Let's draw this weird guy with pigeon as a villain! Yeah, he is Rob Lucci!!"_
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@Kai:
What does full resolution have to do with anything? Nothing is fully resolved in any arc. How is that any different than Sanji getting separated from the crew in Dressrosa, going to Zou, then having to go to WCI to get him back? An arc is defined by a story intrinsically tied to each island. By that logic you can tie many arcs together (Sabaody/Amazon Lily/Impel Down, PH/Dressrosa). Let's make WCI and Zou as part of Dressrosa then because the crew is not reunited after Dressrosa.
As I said, the whole point of Water 7 was to get Franky as a member. Ennies Lobby developed later, when Oda retconned Rob Lucci into a villain. If it was 1 arc, Oda would have decided Lucci was the main villain without the arc starting.
Yes, because there is always a degree of incompleteness in every arc. No arc ever fully resolves all the branches it instigates.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
_"To tell you the truth, Water 7 arc was a story to let shipwright join Straw Hats. Franky joining them and Straw Hats saying goodbye to Going Merry in the finale were the only events I determined to draw before the arc started."
"After drawing various characters, I wondered, "Whom should I make a villain? OK. Let's draw this weird guy with pigeon as a villain! Yeah, he is Rob Lucci!!"_
Youvrealize that your argument relies on an interview Oda gave ten years after the arcs conclusion, right? Even ifhe had decided Paulie was the villain it would have all extended to enies lobby. Making such a big deal about Oda not knowing who the villain was initially is a weird attempt at this argument and you haven't actually refuted any of Robby's points. Ironically, the interview you posted is the greatest proof for the two as one arc since those events were started and finished withing both locations.
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@Kai:
What does full resolution have to do with anything? Nothing is fully resolved in any arc.
Problem brought up, villain, side characters specific to that location. Once you say farewell to those things, the arc is over.
How is that any different than Sanji getting separated from the crew in Dressrosa, going to Zou, then having to go to WCI to get him back?
Different villains, different goals, different objectives, different side characters.
The ongoing throughline of the main characters part of the entire story, the connective tissue. you have to separate that out or else the entire series is the Luffy arc.
An arc is defined by a story intrinsically tied to each island. By that logic you can tie many arcs together (Sabaody/Amazon Lily/Impel Down, PH/Dressrosa).
Amazon Lilly the goal was "get Luffy off the Island and deal with Hancock." Did that, arc over.
Impel Down the goal was "get to the bottom, then get back up and escape from Magellan." Did that, arc over.
War was "get to the stand, free Ace, escape." Did that, arc over.They have a clear goal and finish point, and then afterwards, those characters are left behind.
A fairly solid case can be made for Impel Down and the war because the main cast overlaps, but the main threats and goals were very distinctly different. Magellan was the only big threat during ID, and that problem was taken care of, at which point the entire surrounding cast and goal changes completely… though the throughline main characters remain consistent.
Let's make WCI and Zou as part of Dressrosa then because the crew is not reunited after Dressrosa.
The cast being split up may make it part of a larger umbrella term, a "saga" if you need that level of definition, but each of those had their own standalone plots that were resolved completely.
If you're going to break it up by "island" rather than "story" then basically every arc in the series including Cake Island is suddenly a whole bunch of pieces.
Cake we have main island, peanut island, chocolate island, Sunny battle on water, Mirror World, Wedding Battle, Dungeon escape, underwater. All in different locations on different islands with different factions, At the very minimum you'd have to break it up to be "The Wedding" and "The Escape". But its still all part of the same arc because Big Mom is the unifying problem, and it has all the same side characters and same overall goals to be overcome.
As I said, the whole point of Water 7 was to get Franky as a member. Ennies Lobby developed later, when Oda retconned Rob Lucci into a villain. If it was 1 arc, Oda would have decided Lucci was the main villain without the arc starting.
_"To tell you the truth, Water 7 arc was a story to let shipwright join Straw Hats. Franky joining them and Straw Hats saying goodbye to Going Merry in the finale were the only events I determined to draw before the arc started."
There is a vast, VAST difference between Oda going
"I don't know exactly what the villain is going to be yet but I knew the big themes of the arc"
and
"I planned on this arc having no villain whatsoever, but then changed my mind."When it comes to designs or powers or extra characters, that details he figures out along the way all the time as part of the creative process. Oda does that stuff on the fly constantly, and that's why its near impossible to predict the immediate story, when the long term can be figured out pretty solidly. The fact that he didn't have a super clear idea a couple chapters into the arc doesn't change it still being part of the arc by the time all was said and done. Like he originally had no idea Vivi would be part of the group until a couple chapters later he decided she would be, and he didn't know the X marks on their arms would be a thing. Or on Sabondy he originally didn't have the supernovas until an editor said the arc was dull, but he'd known Kuma was going to seperate the crew when he first showed him off 10 years earlier. Or on Drum he didn't originally plan on the mountains turning into Cherry Blossom trees at the end.
You can't point to early creative process and hold it against the final product. It's also why Oda is so notoriously bad for guessing how long events will take, like announcing Merry would die "next year" nearly three years in advance, or saying we'd be through Reverie and at Wano by the end of the last year. The story grows and changes, doesn't mean its not the story._
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@K.:
Is it wrong to combine arcs to make a bigger arc because those individual ones are incomplete without the other set pieces?
Haven't you heard that a set of arcs is called a Saga.
We had East Blue Sage, Baroque Works Saga, Skypiea Saga, CP9 Saga, Marineford Saga, Straw Hat Reunion Saga and now we are on Pirate Alliance Saga.
And in East Blue saga all were standalone arcs without any link between them except for Baratie and Arlong arc.
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Problem brought up, villain, side characters specific to that location. Once you say farewell to those things, the arc is over.
Different villains, different goals, different objectives, different side characters.
The ongoing throughline of the main characters part of the entire story, the connective tissue. you have to separate that out or else the entire series is the Luffy arc.
Amazon Lilly the goal was "get Luffy off the Island and deal with Hancock." Did that, arc over.
Impel Down the goal was "get to the bottom, then get back up and escape from Magellan." Did that, arc over.
War was "get to the stand, free Ace, escape." Did that, arc over.They have a clear goal and finish point, and then afterwards, those characters are left behind.
A fairly solid case can be made for Impel Down and the war because the main cast overlaps, but the main threats and goals were very distinctly different. Magellan was the only big threat during ID, and that problem was taken care of, at which point the entire surrounding cast and goal changes completely… though the throughline main characters remain consistent.
The cast being split up may make it part of a larger umbrella term, a "saga" if you need that level of definition, but each of those had their own standalone plots that were resolved completely.
If you're going to break it up by "island" rather than "story" then basically every arc in the series including Cake Island is suddenly a whole bunch of pieces.
Cake we have main island, peanut island, chocolate island, Sunny battle on water, Mirror World, Wedding Battle, Dungeon escape, underwater. All in different locations on different islands with different factions, At the very minimum you'd have to break it up to be "The Wedding" and "The Escape". But its still all part of the same arc because Big Mom is the unifying problem, and it has all the same side characters and same overall goals to be overcome.
There is a vast, VAST difference between Oda going
"I don't know exactly what the villain is going to be yet but I knew the big themes of the arc"
and
"I planned on this arc having no villain whatsoever, but then changed my mind."When it comes to designs or powers or extra characters, that details he figures out along the way all the time as part of the creative process. Oda does that stuff on the fly constantly, and that's why its near impossible to predict the immediate story, when the long term can be figured out pretty solidly. The fact that he didn't have a super clear idea a couple chapters into the arc doesn't change it still being part of the arc by the time all was said and done. Like he originally had no idea Vivi would be part of the group until a couple chapters later he decided she would be, and he didn't know the X marks on their arms would be a thing. Or on Sabondy he originally didn't have the supernovas until an editor said the arc was dull, but he'd known Kuma was going to seperate the crew when he first showed him off 10 years earlier. Or on Drum he didn't originally plan on the mountains turning into Cherry Blossom trees at the end.
You can't point to early creative process and hold it against the final product. It's also why Oda is so notoriously bad for guessing how long events will take, like announcing Merry would die "next year" nearly three years in advance, or saying we'd be through Reverie and at Wano by the end of the last year. The story grows and changes, doesn't mean its not the story.
Dude, you got proven wrong. Get over it. The current storyline of PH -> Dressrosa -> Zou -> WCI -> Wano is just one giant continuum. All those stories are incomplete in and of themselves. But they're all separate arcs. It all started with the aim of defeating Kaido, which led to Dressrosa, but Sanji got separated, so they had to go to WCI.
Like someone said, there is a difference between an arc and a saga. The very fact that Straw Hats have been split up for so long, and their goal of taking down Kaido still hasn't been resolved, proves that there's no full resolution to any of those. An arc = an island (or collection of nearby island). You can't count Zou as part of WCI, just because Capone shot Pekoms in the back, and took Sanji away from the crew.
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There is no way dressrosa and punk hazard are different arcs. The villains are doflamingo's underlings, doflamingo himself is shown multiple times and even shows up at the end, it is about the sad and cc plot that goes into dressrosa, other characters from dressrora show up there like baby5 and buffalo. The kids and brown beard are minor characters with their minor side stories that don't really count for the main doflamingo- kaidou -alliance-artificial zoans - plan thing, and the kids plot isn't even solved yet, they are going in whatever vegapunk arc.
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@Kai:
An arc is defined by a story intrinsically tied to each island.
No, that's just wrong. If we properly talk about arcs, it's short for story arcs. There's absolutely nothing intrinsic tied to each island or any location at all tied to that term. Sure, you can define it that way, but this for sure is no intrinsic definition. This confuses heavily cause and effect.
MOSTLY it works like that:
Cause: All (or most) short-term objectives are solved. There's nothing more to do at this place.
Effect: The location gets changed and we get new short-term objectives.Therefore it makes sense to base arcs on locations - because it just fits quite perfectly… in most cases. But not in every case.
It, however, works not like that:
Cause: We change location.
Effect: Every previously established short-time objective is solved. A new story arc starts.At the end of the so called Water 7 arc we have the concrete case that basically every short-term objective is not solved. However, they cannot get really solved without changing location. Therefore, we have to change location, but in the very same story arc. As there really isn't given any story reason for another story arc.
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No, that's just wrong. If we properly talk about arcs, it's short for story arcs. There's absolutely nothing intrinsic tied to each island or any location at all tied to that term.
Literally every arc is named after the island it's based. When more than an island is involved with separate stories that are related, it's called a saga. I.E. We're in the WCI arc in the Yonko Saga.
It's kinda sad you have to explain someone who's been reading One Piece for more than a decade, how the story works.
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@Kai:
Literally every arc is named after the island it's based. When more than an island is involved with separate stories that are related, it's called a saga. I.E. We're in the WCI arc in the Yonko Saga.
It's kinda sad you have to explain someone who's been reading One Piece for more than a decade, how the story works.
At least with the latter statement I can agree.
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@Kai:
Literally every arc is named after the island it's based. When more than an island is involved with separate stories that are related, it's called a saga. I.E. We're in the WCI arc in the Yonko Saga.
It's kinda sad you have to explain someone who's been reading One Piece for more than a decade, how the story works.
Every arc is named after the island it's based because that's what the fandom decided was the easiest way to refer to them. Stop being stuck up. You do realise that an arc means it has relatively well-defined beginnings and ends. Water 7 and Enies Lobby were just different locations for the same story arc. We are looking at the basic organization of the story and divide it into portions defined by characters, themes, goals, consequences. Not by places. Water 7 and Enies Lobby and "Return to Water 7" being different arcs makes no sense at all. The cast is the same, the themes are the same, the goals are the same, the consequences only happen after they return from Enies Lobby. Would you say the train part was an independent arc? Because it was not in either W7 or EL. But Sanji went on ahead to the first train. So did the train arc begin then? Do you see where I'm going? It's the exact same continuum.
Why is this arc called Whole Cake Island arc, then, if we have visited Chocolate Island more than once or Peanuts Island for a chapter? We've been out of WCI for a while now. Maybe if you call it the Totto Land arc, I'll agree. But why can you group Totto Land's islands as a single arc, while W7 and EL, which were pretty close and were linked by a sea train you apparently cannot? Do you realise the inconsistency? We need to look at what is actually going on in order to break up the story into portions, not to where it is taking place. We have to ask ourselves: "Did Oda think of all of this as a single story, or did he think about this slice first and then that slice?" Water 7 and Enies Lobby were clearly a single storyline. And I would be inclined to say Jaya and Skypiea were too, although that's more debatable. The truth is that only after Skypiea ends do we see Cricket's storyline come to a close, as well as Bellamy, the 2 main characters of Jaya (both support and villain).
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Is Green Bit it's own arc?
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Yeah W7/EL are one story.
Call that story what you like but that's what it is.
Re. villain discussion. This is important.
B/C Oda didn't know what his villain looked like yet, doesn't mean he didn't know what his villain's function was. This is very common and an important difference. Oda hasn't said he didn't know the role he wanted the villain(s) to play, simply that he wasn't sure who would fulfill that role.
Good point to bring up for clarification!
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Yeah, sounds just like the case of Vivi/Ms. Wednesday. Whereas he knew about the function of the princess character, he didn't knew at the time Ms. Wednesday appeared that she actually would fufill that role later on.
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@uniaka:
There is no way dressrosa and punk hazard are different arcs.
They're separate the way Little Garden and ALabasta are separate. There was a smaller villain and goal to deal with in the first who was the big threat for the area and its locals. Every actual issue pertaining to that area was dealt with. (save the giants, stop Mr. 3. Save the kids, capture Ceaser.) That it was setup for a bigger boss, and some of the lead characters carried over directly to the next part of the story, doesn't make it any less resolved or that its themes weren't done.
Meanwhile, go over to Jaya and Skypeia, and most of the stuff started in Jaya like acorn-head's arc, the wronged (true) history of Norland, the giant shadow beings,weren't actually resolved or explained until the bell was wrung on Skypeia and we got resolution back there after Skypeia was done. Jaya had no resolution except on Skypeia. Even Bellamy wasn't fully dealt with until after.
There is a difference between ongoing story elements and an arc.
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Also, there's no doubt in my mind that it makes sense from a point of simplicity and sales to break apart certain arcs if, for nothing less, the simplicity referring to very specific parts of the story.
This is why one might see 'arcs' being applied to specific islands.
But please don't think that there is any sort of definitive rule on the official end of what does/doesn't determine an arc.
That is to say:
1 island = 1 arc
Several arcs including a common theme all determine a saga, etc.When we start applying rules to it, it doesn't make any sense because there are always exceptions which make it messy.
I'll admit that sagas are definitely a nice way of encompassing everything. Twin Capes/Whiskey Peak/Little Garden/Drum etc. being part of the overarching BW 'saga' sounds excellent and works quite well for most of those, but Drum (besides Ace) really is its own story that happens to appear in the middle of the saga. I'm not saying that breaks the rules, I'm saying it's messy and why we shouldn't be so stoic with determining what does/doesn't constitute a single goal in the narrative.
Consider that, in Japanese, the same word refers to BW 'arc' Drum 'arc' and even the Paradise 'arc'.
There's nothing sacred when it comes to making a single story within the series easy to reference.
Are W7/Sea Train/EL all part of the same directly continuous strongly cohesive story? Yes.
Tottoland is still a pleasant sojourn compared to that monster or DR.
And not that Kai has suggested this, but including the mention of Greenbit above, if we're really going to say one island = one arc, whew, how many arcs are we on in Tottoland now?
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But please don't think that there is any sort of definitive rule on the official end of what does/doesn't determine an arc.
First: This.
Especially any official word is primarily in order to create hype - instead of properly structuring the story. As we can see with the term "Yonko Saga". It just doesn't make any narrative sense to consider Zou to be the start of a new saga. However, the officials are talking about something like "the new and exciting Yonko Saga", but just because it sounds exciting and creates hype to a great deal. They just don't give any real shit whether their official word helps us properly structuring the story or not.
However, if we want to determine story/narrative arcs and/or sagas, there's something rather easy to determine them. Just look at this picture:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dramatic_structure#/media/File:Freytags_pyramid.svg
This is the principle (let's call it principle and not a rule because there's still too much room for debate to call it a fixed rule) which lays the ground. A proper arc starts with the exposition part which goes over to the rising action up to the climax and then the action falls down again and we get to the resolution. The very same principle can be applied on a broader scale to determine proper sagas or even on a big scale regarding the whole story.However, looking at Water 7 and Enies Lobby: After the "climax" at Water 7 (actually there are lots of mini-climaxes before the main climax, but these aren't displayed on the picture as it's a very simplified outline) there just isn't happening the falling action part which leds to the resolution. Instead we are still in the rising action part of the very same arc. The action rises further and further until the real actual climax happens - at Enies Lobby - and then finally kicks in the falling action part and the actual resolution.
Forum user Bartholemew Bear passed away in a very moving and touching way. I, ARTEMlS, therefore carry on the Will of DArth for good unto its final fulfilment.
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There is one identifying factor for major stories that Oda has been pretty careful with as far back as Little Garden and they'll usually tell you when a major story will or won't take off.
This is of course his use of 'adventure' in chapter titles that usually kick off a long cohesive story with the title 'Adventure in/on ~'.
The biggest exception would be Jaya but I think that was more his way of saying, "Hey, we're not rooted here, nor are we returning."
Interestingly enough, Chapters 442 & 444 and 606 & 609 seem to solidify this pattern by clearly separating free adventure and guided adventure.
What's REALLY cool? Is how Greenbit has its own 'Adventure' title combined with the knowledge that Oda originally intended Greenbit to be its own story!
So, yeah guess what I'm trying to say is, after 324's 'Adventure in the City of Water' the next 'Adventure' was Chapter 442 Adventure in the Demonic Sea.
ARTEMIS,
Oh dang! That's right! I forgot about that 'Yonkou Saga' label as well. I mean, sure, it works as a part of where we are in the story, buuuut, they use the same word for that as they do to define the New World 'saga/arc'. It's all quite loose.
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Greg not wearing Franky anymore?
Something has changed.
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That's the Franky Oda drew for me, it's always with me ;)
I'm cleaning my computer desktop for the new year at work (starts tomorrow) and I came across my old avatar which predates my join date at this version of AP so decided to bring it back.
Only problem is, I guess how gifs are read has changed in…15 or so...years...so it's REALLY fast.
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What's REALLY cool? Is how Greenbit has its own 'Adventure' title combined with the knowledge that Oda originally intended Greenbit to be its own story!
Hold up, where can this be found? Or is this insider knowledge?
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Nope, not at all. It was mentioned in some event over the past year, don't know which. Got a feeling it was when the editors had their roundtable.
iirc, they said it was intended to run side-by-side with the DR story but just naturally went in another direction.
