There is no need for Law to use it. Oda might have mentioned it only because he wants to introduce an immortal person in the future. Someone from void century for example. If someone like that appears, then here's you reason, and Law doesn't have to do anything with it.
The Great New World Discussion Thread
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Preface: This turned out to be really long, apologies. I broke things up for easier reading!
Second Time Skip
I have been thinking. I have talked about there possibly being a time skip in the future. Yet I did not realize what would need to happen before it. I also feel that in the future, there will have to be some passage of time that gives Luffy maturity that makes sense for a Pirate King. Before, I thought I'd see a second time skip as a way to increase his strength even more, but I realize that now more than ever what matters is his maturity. So, I can see the possibility of Luffy reaching Raftel before the timeskip, but I feel the time skip will need to happen to show a slightly more aged Luffy. Probably around the age of 23? Can you imagine that Luffy? I feel at that age and after all the struggle's he'd achieve the strength and fleets and respect to truly be the Pirate King. Yet let's talk about before that.
Remaining Crew Members
I believe he'll recruit his remaining crew members before then. Possibly even before Raftel. I would think that it would be ideal to travel to Raftel with a full crew ship. I'm opening the floor to discussion of who you feel are top picks for 'remaining crew members'. My top picks are: Ceasar > Boa Hancock > Jinbei. I know there is plenty of dislike for Ceasar and feel he'd need to repent before joining. I have read a theory about Boa having plenty of potential of being a Crew Mate and it convinced me into having her as my second pick. Jinbei is an obvious choice. Notice they each have dreams they want to fulfill, and are interesting. Also note that I do not have Carrot on there, albeit being a popular pick. She's strong and cute, yet I know nothing of her dreams nor does she really interest me besides that. (If you disagree I'd love to see why you think so)
I think 3-5 mates are the remaining few. I'm not sure if the final number is already confirmed though. Either way, I do think having them join before Raftel would be ideal to have an easier chance for the mates to bond and not feel like an outsider who joined too late. I think if we see them in the crew after a time skip that we would feel they are out of place and sudden. I also think a valid straw hat member is one that they have already met, are friendly with, and could benefit from them being in the crew. Most important of all, they'd need a goal. Now enough about Crew Members as I'm sure some of you may be tired of hearing it plenty of times. (I rarely discuss One Piece nowadays and have seen some theories lately so this is why you see me bringing this up now)
The position of Pirate King
Let's talk about Luffy growing into the position of Pirate King. I now realize something. I realize that either A) Luffy will become Pirate King and realize it's more than it really is or B) Luffy will not be Pirate King through his own will as a plot twist. Now, what I wonder is what the true definition of 'Pirate King' really is. Sure, he believes it's 'the person who is the most free' in the seas, but does he really know what a Pirate King does? Does a Pirate become Pirate King simply because they wish to be Pirate King? What I hope is that Luffy grows through the issue with the Void History and how he must act to oppose the WG.
Start for Adventure, end with Social Change
Sure, we know that the hunt for One Piece is a hunt for treasure. It's for adventure, for the experience. Yet, to get to the location of One Piece, one needs to collect and read(?) the poneglyphs and the red poneglyphs if I have this correct. This means, that as they continue their adventure, they begin to learn the history and begin to have emotional reactions and begin to establish their own sense of justice and politics even though they only joined for the fun and thrill. Meaning, that once any Crew that successfully reaches Raftel, will not be there for the treasure and adventure alone anymore. By that time, it'd be for social change.
Luffy maturing into the role of Pirate King
I am not sure if this sudden realization happens on Raftel, or before Raftel, though. I do feel, that once Luffy's reason for being Pirate King is 'I want to be free' changes to 'I want to make the world a better place', will he act as a Pirate King, who will go to war for his people and think about news for the first time ever. (Which will show Jinbei being shocked in seeing Luffy reading up on news) This is why I feel Luffy needs more time to mature before concluding the whole series. At least, I feel that he may gain the 'title' of Pirate King but I think as he is older he'll be less focusing on traveling the seas but more on resolving the issues presented to him in a direct manner. Just as he'd punch a Tenrybuito, I feel as Pirate King he'd directly confront the WG without fear, but with reason.
Luffy possibly not the true Pirate King
Another reason I think Luffy may not be the true Pirate King is due to his reaction to the Straw Hat Fleet. Sure it was funny for him to say he isn't the boss, but if he doesn't want responsibility now, what does he expect the title of PK would demand of him? I do realize that he can simply just grow and by the time he reaches Raftel he would have time to make his decision. The reason why I even consider option B is because I feel he'd go the same way as Whitebeard did. Remember that Roger asked WB if he wanted to know where One Piece was, but he refused because he was content where he was. I feel this was his way of being free. I would think Luffy can possibly turn down One Piece after realizing that he'd need to act more seriously with it.
Reason why Luffy may still be Pirate King
Now I can consider that since he makes friends of anyone he meets, he most likely will fight for them and any of his friends. So, as his social network grows, his reason for 'fighting for them' or 'for the people' grows. (Meaning, his friend network grows so much that he's basically fighting 'for the people' when he's fighting for his friends) So while WB didn't have much reason to need to act (as in, he simply remained within his own circle, I could be wrong though), Luffy may have more emotional reason to interfere even though he'd prefer to sit back and live life and be free. Regardless, I'd imagine that Luffy as an old geezer would prefer to live just as Sengoku and Garp do! I cannot wait for the day that Luffy and Garp both just sit back and enjoy their life without worry of their positions. (Although Garp already retired so there's no worry about that) If Luffy was put in a position of responsibility, he'd act exactly as Garp does.
To sum up: (If you read through this all, thank you)
- I feel there may need to be a time skip, probably after Raftel (to show growth and progress after a few years as PK)
- I feel the crew will probably need to be full before reaching Raftel for plot purposes and for being able to have a wide range of skills to use effectively on the last island
- I feel Luffy doesn't realize how big a role Pirate King is, it may force him to act in a way he usually wouldn't
- I may not totally understand the definition of Pirate King
- Ceasar, Boa Hancock, and Jinbei are my top picks
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@Neo:
discussion about the title of Pirate King
I think you brought up a very interesting topic here. I always had a sort of bold prediction in mind for the final phases of the story, and that is that Luffy will be the one to reach Raftel first and find the One Piece, but then the Blackbeard pirates will attack them and deal an unexpected devastating defeat to them, and well… Blackbeard will steal the One Piece from Luffy thus stealing even his role as person prophetized to change the world. Of course i don't expect everything to wrap up so simplistically, i'm only drawing a basic sketch of the great picture.
The world then will recognize him as the Pirate King, but instead of using the One Piece to bring freedom to the world he'll use it to go to a conquer rampage bringing the World Government to its knees. This will be meant to symbolize how freedom can be both a treasure and the greatest of evil at the same time depending by who posses it, i believe in fact that the treasure of One Piece will be something that can give to its owner a sort of ultimate freedom (or power). I believe that the Gorosei are not essentialy evil, they have an ideology, and that is that freedom is evil and dangerous to humanity, and a corrupt but centralized power based governement is the lesser evil to guarantee the stability of societies. Maybe they know what the One Piece is, and that's why they fear so much its discovery.
But ironically enough, it is their own system of the Schichibukai and their ideology of blaming descendants for the sins of their fathers (the WG who went to war with Withbeard and thus put in peril the balance of the powers just to execute Ace, only for being Roger son) that gave to Blackbeard a great part of the power he posses now, they killed WB allowing him to take the Gura Gura and he exploited his Schici title to reclute new strong memebers all at once. That's why i think its is only fitting that BB and not Luffy would be the one to deal the greatest blow to the WG, because the defeat of the WG must not be just a military defeat, i would be so disappointed if it would be only that, but also an utter defeat of their own ideologies, and what other better defeat than in the end they get destroyed by the same monster who their own ideologies exist to supress, and on top of that because they helped him in the first place.
In the end Luffy, who the WG demonized since the beginning, will defeat BB and thus bringing, somehow (since we still don't know the nature of One Piece), freedom and equality to all people and all races without still having never conquered any territory or land, and the reader will be left with an open interpretation of who was the true Pirate King.
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I like the angle you propose. It is interesting because BB is also a D. member, and Rosinante said that they were referred to as 'god's natural enemy'. So it would make sense for BB to heavily damage the WG as a D. member, instead of simply making chaos only within Yonkou/Pirate circles. So in the end BB helps change the world even though he's an antagonist who played dirty and caused Ace to die. I like your idea of Luffy letting BB do that, defeat him, and keep the freedom intact without really having to take on that much responsibility. I also like the thought of BB destroying the WG because that is just sweet irony. They focus so hard on Roger and Ace but turn a blind eye to the one force that will destroy them due to their faulty system. (Which makes me wonder why they implemented such a program in the first place)
In the end, he still has to pay for killing his own Crew Member. Ace was trying to resolve that. I feel Luffy may consider that as well, to remind him of what he has done. In the end, I would feel Blackbeard would deserve to die by Luffy's hands and BB realizing the wrong in his actions in that very moment, with a flash back. Then we'd feel slightly bad for him, and then boom. So I'm not so sure Luffy would be one to kill someone, but I can understand if he makes one exception for someone who:
1. Killed his own Crewmate
2.Killed his brother(whoops that was Akainu)Luffy isn't a killer but BB may be the one antagonistic force that may test his moral standing. If not death, a brutal half killing. Yet I just forgot about Akainu. (BB just captured Ace) Anyway I know the manga/anime is shounen but I feel that the defeat will have to leave a serious impact and show emotion in Luffy's actions.
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@Neo:
I like the angle you propose. It is interesting because BB is also a D. member, and Rosinante said that they were referred to as 'god's natural enemy'. So it would make sense for BB to heavily damage the WG as a D. member, instead of simply making chaos only within Yonkou/Pirate circles. So in the end BB helps change the world even though he's an antagonist who played dirty and caused Ace to die. I like your idea of Luffy letting BB do that, defeat him, and keep the freedom intact without really having to take on that much responsibility. I also like the thought of BB destroying the WG because that is just sweet irony. They focus so hard on Roger and Ace but turn a blind eye to the one force that will destroy them due to their faulty system. (Which makes me wonder why they implemented such a program in the first place)
In the end, he still has to pay for killing his own Crew Member. Ace was trying to resolve that. I feel Luffy may consider that as well, to remind him of what he has done. In the end, I would feel Blackbeard would deserve to die by Luffy's hands and BB realizing the wrong in his actions in that very moment, with a flash back. Then we'd feel slightly bad for him, and then boom. So I'm not so sure Luffy would be one to kill someone, but I can understand if he makes one exception for someone who:
1. Killed his own Crewmate
2.Killed his brother(whoops that was Akainu)Luffy isn't a killer but BB may be the one antagonistic force that may test his moral standing. If not death, a brutal half killing. Yet I just forgot about Akainu. (BB just captured Ace)
Thank you. I always felt something wrong in the idea of: first Luffy defeat Blackbeard for Pirate King title, get the One Piece, go at war with WG. Rather, it would be far more unexpected and fitting a plot twist such as Teach stealing from Luffy his prophetized role and exploiting it in his own selfish and evil way. But i think a reason would be necessary for Luffy to let Teach do all that, and the Straw hats need to be defeated initially in order to BB take the One Piece and at the same time give enough hype and credit to the BB pirates, maybe all the Straw hats will be seriously injured or in life peril while BB go to conquering everything.
As for Luffy killing Blackbeard, since its the final arc i think amost everything is possible, so i don't exclude it personally, though i would prefer Blackbeard to not be redeemed not even at the end. To me what Oda means to symbolize with Blackberd is the source of all evil of mankind, and that is "greed", or as Blackbeard likes to put it "dreams". It's a bit like the original sin, evil was born because Adam and Eve, though they lived in a paradise, they still wanted more, we know that Oda knows those myths and sometimes he mentioned them in the manga, like the "tree of knowledge" at Ohara. I don't believe in that deceitful sketch of Blackbeard as a kid crying, i don't really believe he had a sad childhood, but rather that he was crazy and power thirsty to begin with. That's how i portray the final villain of One Piece, though i know many people do not agree with it.
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Why I like that angle so much is because BB as a D. does helps bring good change by destroying the WG (or is it, I mean would a better change be to reform it?), yet still angers Luffy and OP fans in turn by robbing him of his dream! It reminds us of his antagonistic nature. For the Final Arc, I don't mind BB being killed. Akainu as well. There's also the theory of Akainu planning to overthrow the WG? (With Bonney) So, we have an antagonist from the pirates (BB), from the marines (Akainu), but then who would be the antagonist be for the WG? (Stelly is a King, would he count? But I feel he wouldn't be the main Antagonist from the WG/Nobles)
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The Marines pretty much covers most of the WG's power and influence, the other half being the Shichibukai and Ciper Pol so you can't just picture the Marines as a separated group from the WG. Kong himself, a former Fleet Admiral, overlooks pretty much every military asset outside of the Warlords.
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@Dr.:
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Of course the idea of Luffy defeating Blackbeard for the Pirate King title seems weird. Because it was never supposed to be that way. I could go into a lengthy post, but mostly it is the idea of 3 ancient weapons, which are foreshadowing three contenders in the last final war. The World Government, Blackbeard Pirates, and Straw Hat pirates.
The title of Pirate King is super subjective and it varies between different people's ideals. For some it means getting the biggest treasure in the world, for others is ruling the seas, for Luffy it is freedom. Luffy does not need to mature into the title, because the title is not something you officially earn through a transcript, it is symbolic. The only thing that everyone can agree on, is that the Pirate King is able to sail whenever and wherever he wants.
For now, it seems that at one point Blackbeard's path will diverge from Raftel/One Piece which will lead to Shanks and his crew fighting against them. The reason ties in with the first paragraph. The Ancient Weapon. Blackbeard will learn the location of the third Ancient Weapon and will go for it, Shanks will go ahead and try to stop them. While this happens, Luffy will journey to Raftel.
I believe that Raftel will be the only island where they do not have a conflict with anyone but the history they learn and their decisions moving forward. Personally, I would find it pretty anti climatic that the lost island that only one crew was ever able to reach now becomes a touristic spot having two crews reaching it. I think that Luffy should difer with Blackbeard on this point. The latter trying to conquer the world through destruction, while the former actually did voyage the entire world.
@Neo:
-No timeskip, unless it is an epilogue, years after type. -
I'm not so sure BB would diverge from One Piece though. (Although interested to see why you think he'd drop his dream of attaining OP) I can see him clashing with Shanks but I feel that would be before he reaches one piece. I do agree that he's one of the major antagonistic forces so what Faust brings up seems valid and interesting. Also your point about the title, is also why I like the idea of BB influencing a major change as a D. member (I mean why else would he be a D. right?) but still have to fight with Shanks and Luffy due to being pure evil. This would in turn free up Luffy from anything that would clash with his ideal of being Pirate King, conveniently for him. Yet, I wouldn't mind him maturing after Raftel just so that we can see him mature and grow up. Now that I think about it, Garp is pretty old and I'm not so sure he'll probably mature [Luffy] but I think he'll at least be a bit more aware of the current events/news.
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@Tamiel:
I believe that Raftel will be the only island where they do not have a conflict with anyone but the history they learn and their decisions moving forward. Personally, I would find it pretty anti climatic that the lost island that only one crew was ever able to reach now becomes a touristic spot having two crews reaching it. I think that Luffy should difer with Blackbeard on this point. The latter trying to conquer the world through destruction, while the former actually did voyage the entire world.
I wasn't specifically proposing that their battle should take place at Raftel, BB can defeat Luffy and steal the One Piece after that. But i think it's very important that Blackbeard should get his hands on the One Piece if that treasure really holds the power to give absolute freedom to who possess it as i suspect. If, as in my opinion, the ultimate theme of the series are the two sides of freedom, Luffy's and Blackbeard's, then i think that the story should show how each of them would "use" that same ultimate treasure of freedom both of them desire, in order to exhibit their different ideologies.
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@Dr.:
As for Luffy killing Blackbeard, since its the final arc i think amost everything is possible, so i don't exclude it personally, though i would prefer Blackbeard to not be redeemed not even at the end. To me what Oda means to symbolize with Blackberd is the source of all evil of mankind, and that is "greed", or as Blackbeard likes to put it "dreams". It's a bit like the original sin, evil was born because Adam and Eve, though they lived in a paradise, they still wanted more, we know that Oda knows those myths and sometimes he mentioned them in the manga, like the "tree of knowledge" at Ohara. I don't believe in that deceitful sketch of Blackbeard as a kid crying, i don't really believe he had a sad childhood, but rather that he was crazy and power thirsty to begin with. That's how i portray the final villain of One Piece, though i know many people do not agree with it.
I personally think that Teach and probably even Akainu have tragic backstories. I think it would suit them rather than demean them with how philosophically driven they are. And I think that tragic backstories can be used to emphasize the corrupt nature of a character even more than if they were just naturally like that. As seen with both Arlong and Doflamingo. Having such characters go through terrible events on-par with or even worse than the heroes, but then making the choice to utilize their pain to oppress others rather than help makes them all the more hatable and representative of how humanity can succumb to sin, such as greed. That promotes a very engrossing dichotomy between the ethics and character between the protagonist and antagonist.
If Luffy's backstory was never revealed, then I would agree that Teach's wouldn't have to either. But if a protagonist as peculiar and mysterious as Luffy got gradually expanded upon in terms of his backgrounds and motivations, than Teach needs to as well due to being both a parallel of Luffy in feats and thematics, as well as accomplishing such impossible accomplishments and being able to bide his time for decades on end with so much manipulation. As a reader and passionate fan of this series, I NEED to know why a character is so driven to that degree and able to risk making so many plays and betray so many major factions. Especially with his crew's fixation on fate even though they hypocritically use cunning (for example, wouldn't such logic arguably dictate that Thatch was fated to get the Yami Yami no Mi and not Teach?).
His fate mantra makes it sound almost as if Teach is obsessed with thinking of himself as the protagonist of his own adventures, supposedly believing that there's no way the author (fate in this case) could ever kill him off no matter what he tries to pull. But whenever things don't go his way, when something potentially disillusions this supposed destiny that he is willing to expend so much time towards such as with what I mentioned about Thatch and almost getting killed by Whitebeard despite how weakened he looked, he becomes a cunning coward and underhandedly takes them out of the picture to keep the spotlight on himself. And then he spews random babble about "fate this and fate that" as a crutch to justify his dishonorable behavior. Not to mention bragging about strength like how he told Jewelry Bonney that only "the strong" can be recruited by him and make it into the New World, with a tone that emanates you're either naturally suited or not. Meanwhile, the Straw Hats label their miraculous feats as luck, as if to indicate there's nothing special about them and being rather humble about their existence. And this giving more credit to how their efforts are due to their own willpower to overturn their struggles head-on with out deceit and reach their ambition no matter the risk they're willing to take. Even for the sake of others despite that potentially costing them their dreams, because it's the journey of making these bonds, adventuring together, inspiring each other, and fighting for one another that gives true meaning to their goals. It's because of having allies that they are able to succeed, while the likes of Blackbeard views others as expendable tools to supplement his subjective destiny by any means necessary. That's exactly why Luffy told Arlong that despite him being talentless when it comes to anything besides fighting, his nakama working alongside them are what gives him true strength (or something along those lines. It's been a while since I've read/watched the East Blue saga lol). Meanwhile, even though Teach may get along with his crew and even value them as both buddies and reliable allies (and he's not the type of intolerable villain who kills his minions for failing their missions either. He wouldn't kill Burgess just because he lost against a character as reputable and powerful as Sabo, especially since he's still a useful combatant regardless), he wouldn't hesitate to off any of them if it was absolutely essential to amass more power to become the Pirate King. He would probably just apologize and ramble more about how this was their "fate", along with a laugh or two.
Here is the image of the image of young Teach:
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And here is my lengthy analysis of it and my thoughts about Teach's characterization as an antagonist:
! Ever since I first saw that image, I always had a clear image in mind to compare child Teach to. That of a bullied kid. I mean, just look at him. His tears, lines on his skin that look sort of like scrapes, the sickly shade on his forehead, and being in the fetal position rather than standing or sitting. Not to mention the night above him illustrating a dark tone that befits "dark" loneliness or lack of "bright" optimism. We might not have any context, but it's obviously showing him in a state of conflict both externally and internally. Especially when I look at how, despite him crying, his countenance is disgruntled. As if there's some sort of obstacle he's struggling to overcome. And considering all of this mixed with the fact that he's, well, a kid, I get a characterization impression that says something akin to: "Sniff I… I'll show them! I'm sick of them always picking on me. But one day, sniff, they'll see! They'll see that they picked the wrong guy to mess with!" The fact that he's clenching his arm almost like he wishes he was stronger really clinches that for me.
! Now, I'm in no way saying that his backstory is LITERALLY something as underwhelming as "Teach gets picked on by bullies as a kid>Probably because of something cheesy and cliche like doubting that he can become Pirate King and being an orphan>Teach swears vengeance>Becomes a megalomaniac with a God complex". Needless to say, we expect a lot more from Oda's writing than that, especially given how emotionally and philosophically complex all of the other flashbacks he's depicted are for both heroes and villains. But what I am trying to point out is how this simple image can relate to the overall psychological dynamic of Blackbeard's character. Because to me, this type of image paired with everything I've said about Teach up to this point screams that he's a bit of a sore loser. Not that his childhood could have been truly unfair and that his persecution wasn't extraordinarily severe, but it definitely left an impact on his ego.
! It's pretty interesting how despite that image showing Blackbeard crying, we mostly seem in a state of jolliness throughout the series. Always radiating sheer confidence and assuredness in his philosophies about dreams and fate. Even when opportunities slip by like when the Straw Hats got away in Jaya due to the Knock-Up Stream, and Teach just laughing it off and both Doc Q and Van Auger crediting their fortune to fate and that they'll meet again if destiny dictates it, while only Burgess got angry at their prey getting away. But it's during moments like when his dreams are about to be snatched away and/or he's humiliated (like when Thatch found the Yami Yami no Mi and ship rules dictated that founders of Devil Fruits get the right to eat them, almost being killed by Whitebeard and panicking after bragging about killing Whitebeard, or getting kicked in the face by Bonney after inviting her to his crew as his girl, criticizing her by saying that women should have more class) that Teach loses that familiar composure and acts utterly desperate and hysterical. The same could be said about his overconfidence when he encountered Magellan in Impel Down and acted smug until he got surprised when swamped with poison. But when Shiryu saved the crew, Teach blew his irresponsibility off by saying "It's not up to us whether we live or die. Fearing death is the fastest way to lose." Sounds awfully hypocritical of someone like Blackbeard to say knowing how he reacted to Whitebeard overpowering him in his final moments, right?
! And we can't forget about his tactics of stealing Devil Fruits and claiming full deserving ownership of them while his antithesis parallel in Luffy is all about earning his strength through his own merit of effort. Especially in how Luffy frequently endures onslaughts of trauma and overcomes them with willpower, although Blackbeard is ironically like that in the regard of his fighting style being based around taking attacks. Except he awkwardly screams in pain and rolls around writhing in agony. Luffy's sort of done that plenty of times too, so that's a really interesting parallel. As well as how Luffy's Devil Fruit makes numbs blunt attacks while Teach's fruit actually increases the pain dealt to him, but that might just be a coincidence as Oda said he gave Luffy his rubber powers just because it looked wacky and would be very useful to an author like him lol. Although they probably diverse when it comes to when they're actually about most likely die, as seen with how Luffy accepted his probable death at the hands of Buggy in Loguetown with while Teach panicked when almost killed by Whitebeard. Not to mention Blackbeard's own darkness fruit is about taking away the Devil Fruit powers of others.
! Teach is a living leech who sucks strength from others and credits what he stole as being destined to be his to begin with. And I bet all of that ties into how he mentally endured whatever traumatic experiences he went through in his childhood. By perhaps finding some way to manipulate whoever mistreated him by making their strength his own and/or looking at his antagonizers as insignificant, weaker, not deserving of their strength, and should be exploitable tools. All he has to do is be patient and wait for the right opportunity, just like he waited years on end to find the Yami Yami no Mi on Whitebeard's ship, because SURELY fate would bless someone as wise and enduring as he is. And while he might have been somewhat justified about that stigma towards those potentially corrupt individuals, he decided to expand that towards the rest of the world in a selfish manner where he put his needs and aspirations above others with his deception covered by his whole fate complex.
! That type of background and psychological depth would only give credit to Luffy and his backstory as the protagonist, because his childhood focused around being raised impoverished with mountain bandits, finding life inspiration in criminals, making friends with urchin thugs, and having to deal with discriminatory persecution from nobles and Celestial Dragons. Except all of that never discouraged Luffy or sparked insecurity in him about his origin or inflated his ego to be superior to his persecutors or anybody else. Only empowering his desires to be the freest man in the seas and punching the face of whoever makes light of honorable symbolism in piracy and oppresses others to fuel their delusions of grandeur. Yet Teach would have found his resolve in pretty the much the opposite of all of that towards creating his fate philosophy of being divinely favored to be successful rather than any other incompetent fellow blind about what their truly worth. Abstract moral concepts like good versus evil? Bah, there is only caliber found in who is weak and who is strong. Who cares about how you look or act as long as you make it to the finish line first? It doesn't matter if Teach looks fat, lost several teeth, is a drunkard, or rides a ship made from giant rope-bound logs with a crew of indecent scoundrels. Just take your time and find the right opportunity to pull the rug under your opponents. Meanwhile, Luffy likes to rush head on and face threats head on to reach the top of the world.
! In fact, most of the arc villains we've had pretty much operate on dogmas centering on some type of superiority and utilizing some type of crutch that was supposedly the sole answer that made them unstoppable. For Don Krieg, it was relying on both tech and cheap deception that took advantage of hospitality and loyalty. For Arlong, it was his racist persecution of humans and superficially holding natural superiority of Fishman physicality. For Hody, it was a twisted version of Arlong's ideals that also persecuted Fishmen and wanted to cause conflict for the sake of it. For Enel, it was trying to play God by subjugating the Skypieans and stealing the land of the Shandians for his "holy" territory, as well as forcing all of them to play a Survival Game where four survivors could venture with him to the heaven-like Fairy Vearth (the Moon); along with believing his lightning Logia fruit and Mantra (Observation Haki) made him invincible and an omniscient being that could never be surprised. For Wapol, he was a spoiled prince who took over the throne and felt he could take advantage of piracy as a means to an end and hog the top doctors to himself for repairs. For Caesar, it was having an inferiority complex that makes him believe he deserves to be renowned as the greatest scientist instead of Vegapunk, and makes bioterroristic chemical weapons of mass destruction that can SURELY never be countered. For Moria, it was thinking that undead soldiers who could never be inhibited by pain can never be stopped, and that he could just rely on such minions to carry him to the top than exert rewarding effort. For Doflamingo, it was believing his royalty and traumatic childhood made others insects and allows him to manipulate others like puppets; with justice being determined by the winners and an age of anarchy overriding the age of dreams.
! So I find it pretty unlikely for Teach or Sakazuki to distance themselves from such an established formula of overconfidence and dogmatic beliefs, which is obviously apparent in their characterizations already. And if Arlong, Hody, Doflamingo, Caesar, and probably Crocodile are going to get their own flashbacks that typically focus on some sort of trouble upbringing (well, besides Caesar maybe), then I think it would be pretty awkward if Teach didn't as the final and most long-running antagonist. Although I hope that unlike those other villains, Teach keeps up expressing some form of respect and acknowledgment of Luffy's credentials for Pirate King as his nemesis to make for a unique interaction-based relationship than Luffy still always being treated as the underdog. Teach's evident God complex, overconfidence, and insecurities would be very interesting character flaws to explore rather than just leaving elaboration on that ambiguous as if he always a living embodiment of avarice from the start. I bet that when he finds out the full truth behind the D's and Void Century, he'll even claim that as "proof" of being fated for greatness. While Luffy probably wouldn't care at all. Which completely fits his character of not caring much for the past (which is evident in how the Straw Hats as a whole don't care to mention their pasts) and focuses on issues in the present. Which is really inspiring in its own way and compliments how Luffy doesn't like to be tied down in such a manner. Luffy's dream is to be the freest man of the seas without borders or burdens of obligation while Blackbeard, as far as we can tell, probably wants to be some sort of anarchist ruler and spread terroristic chaos in his wake, with that idea of Pirate King meaning "ruler" being exactly what Luffy doesn't want from the title. Whatever One Piece is will surely be the pivot that has the potential to make either of those ideologies fulfilled, but only one side can reign win.Anyways, I don't really have anything else to mention about Blackbeard besides one thing. How, as a villain, we know he's detestable for a whole bunch of reasons. But when reminiscing about his misdeeds, the one thing that caught my attention was how he killed Thatch and betrayed the Whitebeard Pirates. As an act on its own, that's obviously not as bad as what Akainu did at Ohara by blowing up the ship of innocent civilians or other villainous acts throughout the series. But what really gives symbolic weight that I feel gives thematic credit to Teach as the final antagonist is how he was able to sever that bond without hesitation. It's not that major or anything since we barely got any elaborated screen time dedicated to showing that bond like what we typically see in a flashback. But that's just the thing though that sparks my intrigue, how it compares to other flashbacks. Because the one notable element focused on in flashbacks is how bonds and familial ties can be made without having to be related by blood. How they strengthen characters to endure pain, gradually embolden them to take up quests to achieve their ambitions, and survive in spire of tragic endings through inherited will as those mentors who passed away truly die only when they're forgotten. Yet Blackbeard had that type of bond with how the Whitebeard Pirates consider themselves a family with Whitebeard as their father and protector. Most of the villains we've seen, even if they got flashbacks, didn't have that luxury to guide them (although Doflamingo did have his blood-linked family). But Teach actually did. He found that type of bond on the path of achieving his dream. And yet… He severed it. Without any compassionate regard, just out of pure selfishness. That is literally the first impression we get out of his character before we even see him by word of mouth from Ace. He practically spat on that type of intangible, yet thick tether as a mere stepping stone. No, not just that, but he actually tries to beg for Whitebeard to forgive him because he's his "son" after all he's done when he's about to be killed by him.
That in and of itself sums up why Teach is the perfect final villain for this series for Luffy to fight. And why I love that fat laughing bastard.
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@Neo:
I'm not so sure BB would diverge from One Piece though. (Although interested to see why you think he'd drop his dream of attaining OP) I can see him clashing with Shanks but I feel that would be before he reaches one piece. I do agree that he's one of the major antagonistic forces so what Faust brings up seems valid and interesting. Also your point about the title, is also why I like the idea of BB influencing a major change as a D. member (I mean why else would he be a D. right?) but still have to fight with Shanks and Luffy due to being pure evil. This would in turn free up Luffy from anything that would clash with his ideal of being Pirate King, conveniently for him. Yet, I wouldn't mind him maturing after Raftel just so that we can see him mature and grow up. Now that I think about it, Garp is pretty old and I'm not so sure he'll probably mature [Luffy] but I think he'll at least be a bit more aware of the current events/news.
The main idea is that Blackbeard is looking to plunge the world into chaos. Knowing his interest in history, I would not put it beyond him to know about the Ancient Weapons. It is almost guaranteed he will obtain one of them. As the bringer of destruction, I would find it hard to believe he would pass on the opportunity to get his hands on one. Also as much as him and Luffy parallel each other, they MUST differ in some aspects as the story moves on. It would fit perfectly withing Teach's character to relenquish his chance in getting to know about the True History to get his hands on a weapon of mass destruction. This would separate his quest with Luffy's, and how each will bring about their own definition of freedom.
@Dr.:
I wasn't specifically proposing that their battle should take place at Raftel, BB can defeat Luffy and steal the One Piece after that. But i think it's very important that Blackbeard should get his hands on the One Piece if that treasure really holds the power to give absolute freedom to who possess it as i suspect. If, as in my opinion, the ultimate theme of the series are the two sides of freedom, Luffy's and Blackbeard's, then i think that the story should show how each of them would "use" that same ultimate treasure of freedom both of them desire, in order to exhibit their different ideologies.
Here is where I think we will not agree until we reach Raftel. I do not think One Piece is a device which grant the user some sort of power, I think that is what the Ancient Weapons are for. One Piece will be surrounded by treasure most likely, and it would be the conclusion to the Rio Poneglyph as well as to maybe hint to a location critical to bring the world together again, as there are many popular theories about the Red line getting destroyed by the end of the series.
With respect to the opposing sides of freedom I agree. However, as I was mentioning above to Neo, I think that is exactly why Blackbeard is going to relinquish the opportunity to get to Raftel in exchange of obtaing the "ultimate treasure of freedom" in Blackbeard's case a very powerful weapon which has been hinted to be able to destroy the world, on the other hand Luffy's freedom gets completed by traversing the world, knowing its secrets.
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That's the thing. I don't anyone knows what One Piece is, whether a telling of the True History or something relating to the Ancient Weapons. (Unless Teach knows and I've forgotten, if so please refresh me) I think if we consider that BB is searching One Piece to become Pirate King, rather to discover the True History, that would make more sense and would help separate him from Luffy as you say. I agree with you that they should be opposite and opposing forces, but I don't see the need to diverge him from the One Piece. It would make more sense in BB stealing the One Piece from Luffy for evil reasons rather than good ones, which is what I think you are getting at. I feel like he'd make sure to get an Ancient Weapon before hand. I don't think it has to be at the same moment as Luffy getting the One Piece. It also makes it feel less important. I mean, who else would Luffy ultimately battle on Raftel for One Piece? I would feel BB > Akainu as final bosses would make the most sense, no?
Now I can see your theory as a possibility, of course. I would think he'd either be on Raftel or in the final arc of course. Either way I expect him to come in late and when we see him go down we know the series is finishing. I feel that Luffy may encounter him before Raftel though, to hype us up and all. I want to see another moment like when Luffy gained Gear 2 but much stronger with awakening and being able to match and beat BB. I really want to see that in the whole crew.
Question: Do you guys think we'll see BB after the Wano Arc? Or before?
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@Neo:
That's the thing. I don't anyone knows what One Piece is, whether a telling of the True History or something relating to the Ancient Weapons. (Unless Teach knows and I've forgotten, if so please refresh me) I think if we consider that BB is searching One Piece to become Pirate King, rather to discover the True History, that would make more sense and would help separate him from Luffy as you say. I agree with you that they should be opposite and opposing forces, but I don't see the need to diverge him from the One Piece. It would make more sense in BB stealing the One Piece from Luffy for evil reasons rather than good ones, which is what I think you are getting at. I feel like he'd make sure to get an Ancient Weapon before hand. I don't think it has to be at the same moment as Luffy getting the One Piece. It also makes it feel less important. I mean, who else would Luffy ultimately battle on Raftel for One Piece? I would feel BB > Akainu as final bosses would make the most sense, no?
Now I can see your theory as a possibility, of course. I would think he'd either be on Raftel or in the final arc of course. Either way I expect him to come in late and when we see him go down we know the series is finishing. I feel that Luffy may encounter him before Raftel though, to hype us up and all. I want to see another moment like when Luffy gained Gear 2 but much stronger with awakening and being able to match and beat BB. I really want to see that in the whole crew.
Question: Do you guys think we'll see BB after the Wano Arc? Or before?
Well, what you are saying is heavily based on One Piece being a thing to be used. Blackbeard will shows his true might on the Final War betweem the Government and Strawhat pirates, a three way war. I believe the starwhats will not fight anyone on Raftel it would make the island less important, it is supposed to be impossible to reach! And then as soon as Luffy gets there, someone else does too? I think THAT would make Raftel be less impactful. Blackbeard has to obtain the ancient weapon by the end because as soon as he gets its it is endgame scenario. If he already has a weapon, why even bother to reach Raftel after, he can destroy the world and after take his sweet time searching while everyone bows before him. It is also worthwhile to note that Poseidon will side with Luffy and the Government is sure to have its owm, so with only one weapon left to encounter, I think the weapon is of enough importance to have Blackbeard mobilize against it, because after it he basically is a winner, hence why Shanks will try and stop him.
Again, Akainu AND Blackbeard will be final antagonists during the final war, having Blackbeard beat up Luffy before that would be underwhelming. I have posted my idea that Blackbeard will show up after Kaido is defeated in Wano. If you want the reasons I can PM them or search the theories forum, I will not bore our community yet again with my reasona.
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You bring up good points. I can see anyone else reaching Raftel would make it less impactful. The only way I feel anyone would be able to arrive there is to tail the Straw-Hats. Good point on BB having to mobilize towards it. I would like for you to PM me the reasons and such, I'm interested.
Something I just realized. Shanks always repeats that Luffy and him will meet and he will return the Straw Hat. This concerns me, because I realized that if Shanks dies, luffy can return the Straw Hat to his grave. That to me would be very moving and impactful, while signifying that Luffy has accomplished his goal. If it was BB who killed him it would make it that much more emotional of a battle.
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@Neo:
Question: Do you guys think we'll see BB after the Wano Arc? Or before?
I sent you a PM about this.
But I think you wanted me to tell you about why Blackbeard will go to the Ancient Weapon? I thought I just did? :S *confusion.
Other points:
Is there a Poneglyph besides the Road Poneglyph Kaido has in Wano? Could be the ~ancient reason~ why the country is so isolated. Maybe Wano holds the location of the last Ancient Weapon.
What is Blackbeard doing to attain the Road Poneglyph?–--
Is this supposed to be in the Blackbeard thread?!
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This post is deleted!
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I'd probably share this in the dumb thread predictions but I don't know, the idea is not main tho.
It's that 'mirroring' some people see between paradise and the nw, and I thought is not too crazy to be ignored.
See, Luffy beat up 4 'big bosses' at Paradise, and if that's going to be the case here with an extra possibly enemy that wouldn't count as 1 enemy alone(the world government, gorosei, the CD's)So the 'big bosses mirroring' goes kind of like this;
Doula Mongo-Croco boy
Two mobsters with mafia-like organizations taking over a country while making themselves look like the 'saviors', and taking advantage of their Shichibukai position (tho who doesn't lately?)
Enel-Kaido It seemed little bit of forced here due to the lack of knowledge about Kaido mostly, all I can really say and may count is that they both share some sort of 'destroy everything' kind of pattern, will definitely play on arcs filled up with real world history(Enel did with the colonization theme), Kaido may do too if shows up at Wano(Feudal Japan), and last thing, they both may achieve the one thing they truly want(Enel did, going to the Moon, I don't remember how he called it) and Kaido may do finally die.
Lucci-Akainu
This one seems the simplest one, with both absolute justice government agents, giant assholes, and for Luffy after beating a Yonko(along with Law oc), may be a good next step to go for the admirals now, besides the fact that fewer people would get on Luffy's way after he beats Kaido.
Moria-Teach
This one is just about two big fat-asses whom are always with a gigantic smile on their faces and related to dark/black powers.after all that. the next stuff to come, may be the big war involving the whole world Shirohige mentioned at Marineford and a potential fight in Mariejois(top of Gyojin island), same spot technically, just different altitude, and a fight against someone who doesn't seems to be all for sharing the world with all the races, nationalities, etc, also mirroring Arlong and Hodi, racists shits.
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Dofla and crocodile is the only that has similarities and i see wano as the NW water7/Enies lobby, a massive arc with worldwide ramifications and after it we can have elbaf which could be the NW skypeia i guess.
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Do we have a Wano country thread or am i alright to post my thoughts about it here?
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It would be nice that the four shadows shown when Brooke was talking about Wano, would be showing the 4 Lords of each island of Wano, following that it has seasonal theme. Maybe the Shogun's castle is in the Middle connecting the 4 other islands.
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Kaido's name might be based on Japanese liquor called 海童 (Kaido). His henchman Scotch's name might be based on Scotch whisky.
Kaidou (liquor) is produced in Kyushu region in Japan, where Oda was born. Oda said he loves Japanese liquor.[hide]
[/hide]That's just my two cents :)
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Kaido confirmed as One Piece Universe's God of Destruction.
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Okay this is something that I've been meaning to get off my chest for a few years now but never could since I wasn't caught up.
I don't like how Oda set up New World.
He condensed the world of the story too much, and as a result, it creates this weird effect, which I will just call "convenient plot timing" for now.
Basically, I don't like how Oda made the New World storyline come down to just the Yonko, Warlords, and Worst Generation. I dislike it for a couple reasons.
Why are half of the major players all from the same year? This is a problem that started with the Sabaody Arc, but I didn't mind it since I thought New World would be larger. But it's odd how half of the big boys are the supernovas.
Why are there no "in-betweeners"? What made Part 1 cool was how even though Luffy was doing big stuff, it never felt like he was the only one who existed. New world feels to stripped down. I expected some more pirates who are in between the Supernovas and Yonkos in age. Basically, people who would be in Ace's age group.
Obviously, other pirate groups still exist. They're just not major players. Some have been absorbed by Big Mom's crew, as well. And another important thing too is the "New Age". Bellamy's speech on Jaya established that the age of pirates being adventorous is done, and that most pillage and control land (which part 1 of One Piece did a graceful job of fufilling as seen by characters like Kuro and Crocodile). So that could explain the situation.
But still, it feels off. Maybe it's because they keep on hyping up those players, so it makes the others seem useless?
I'm not even describing it well. Hopefully someone gets what I'm saying?
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Okay this is something that I've been meaning to get off my chest for a few years now but never could since I wasn't caught up.
I don't like how Oda set up New World.
He condensed the world of the story too much, and as a result, it creates this weird effect, which I will just call "convenient plot timing" for now.
Basically, I don't like how Oda made the New World storyline come down to just the Yonko, Warlords, and Worst Generation. I dislike it for a couple reasons.
Why are half of the major players all from the same year? This is a problem that started with the Sabaody Arc, but I didn't mind it since I thought New World would be larger. But it's odd how half of the big boys are the supernovas.
Why are there no "in-betweeners"? What made Part 1 cool was how even though Luffy was doing big stuff, it never felt like he was the only one who existed. New world feels to stripped down. I expected some more pirates who are in between the Supernovas and Yonkos in age. Basically, people who would be in Ace's age group.
Obviously, other pirate groups still exist. They're just not major players. Some have been absorbed by Big Mom's crew, as well. And another important thing too is the "New Age". Bellamy's speech on Jaya established that the age of pirates being adventorous is done, and that most pillage and control land (which part 1 of One Piece did a graceful job of fufilling as seen by characters like Kuro and Crocodile). So that could explain the situation.
But still, it feels off. Maybe it's because they keep on hyping up those players, so it makes the others seem useless?
I'm not even describing it well. Hopefully someone gets what I'm saying?
I get what you're saying. If it helps, Cavendish is one of those Ace-era pirates you're clamoring for. He was angry about being popular before Luffy came into the fray. But he most likely does not have the plot role that you desire.
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I don't mind this because Part 1 had more then enough World-building that this series needed.
The New World isn't even a quarter of the portion of the world and it's logical that four big pirates are in control of the area.
And there are like 9 Supernovas to work with it. Isn't this a big number already?
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The Supernovas aren't the only non-Yonko/government forces in the New World, they're just major characters and so are going to get a big amount of focus. We've seen guys like Caribou, Brownbeard, Bartolomeo, and Cavendish considerably more than we've seen guys like Urouge, Bonney, and Drake. Also, their increased role in the story essentially boils down to something I mentioned earlier today: Law's philosophy that in order to conquer the New World, one has to either put themselves under the Yonko's protection or go for the jugular and actually attack the Yonko. So far, every member of the Worst Generation is fulfilling that requirement except for maybe Bonney. Special mentions go to Kid and Bege who essentially live and breathe that philosophy, for better or for worse. They ain't called the Worst Generation for nothing. Not to mention that given how most of them are currently faring when it comes to battling the Yonko, with none of them except possibly Bege and Luffy ever being shown to have a prayer, it speaks volumes as to how many pirates of previous generations are still relevant here in terms of the quest to be pirate king.
This isn't Paradise, where pirates from all walks of life test their sailing abilities and compete with each other as they begin their race towards the treasure. This is the home stretch, where only the best of the best compete and those who don't have a shot of it essentially fade into irrelevance. So it makes perfect sense why everything now boils down to the top dogs. There's always going to be side characters that contribute to the plot, like say Brownbeard, the samurai, the Grand Fleet members, and the residents of the islands the Straw Hats visit, but none of them are going to be realistic competitors to Luffy in terms of becoming Pirate King. It all boils down to Luffy, the Marines, the Warlords, the Yonko, and the few pirates who are ballsy enough to shake things up a little, or in the case of the Grand Fleet, the pirates who trust in other pirates to shake things up.
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To me the greatest problem of the New World, and maybe the greatest mistake Oda ever did in the manga, is the split of the crew at Dressrosa. This may sound a little strange, but Punk Hazard is still my favourite arc of the New World, it was a solid arc because the crew were together. I understand that in order to give more space to the grand fleet members's introduction at Dressrosa and also to Pedro and Carrot at WCI some of the Straw Hats would have had to receive less panel time, and thus Oda choosed to give them a separated but full screen time at WCI. But what Oda did is, in my book, a drastic choice that ended up subtracting one of the essential elements that make One Piece great, the interaction between the crew members.
That is also why i have great expectation for Wano, the crew member that have been separated needs desperatly to have screen time together, like for example Usopp and Chopper, how many years has it been that we haven't seen them in battle or in a dangerous situation together? -
@Dr.:
To me the greatest problem of the New World, and maybe the greatest mistake Oda ever did in the manga, is the split of the crew at Dressrosa. This may sound a little strange, but Punk Hazard is still my favourite arc of the New World, it was a solid arc because the crew were together. I understand that in order to give more space to the grand fleet members's introduction at Dressrosa and also to Pedro and Carrot at WCI some of the Straw Hats would have had to receive less panel time, and thus Oda choosed to give them a separated but full screen time at WCI. But what Oda did is, in my book, a drastic choice that ended up subtracting one of the essential elements that make One Piece great, the interaction between the crew members.
That is also why i have great expectation for Wano, the crew member that have been separated needs desperatly to have screen time together, like for example Usopp and Chopper, how many years has it been that we haven't seen them in battle or in a dangerous situation together?You have got a point there, but I don't think it was a mistake.
The new world is completely different than the rest of the world. Hence, part 1 of the story will be different than part 2. Part 1 is slow and simple so that we can get the basics. But, part 2 is the real deal. That's why the rhythm of the new world is so fast and complex, as there are many fights at the same time. Who expected that luffy will engage with two yonko this early?! So, it is expected that the crew will split many times, so they can catch their multiple objectives. So, splitting the crew is a must.
The new world is the world of ALLIANCE. You must ally to survive, as T. Law said to luffy that to survive the new world, you have to ally with a yonko, or to fight him. The crew is already allied with T. Law and C. Bege. So there is no problem any more if the crew have split up, as Law and Bege will complete the rest missing crew members. And I think this is more enjoyable. I somehow got bored watching the crew fighting together. And I think we had enough enjoyment seeing the interaction between the crew members in part 1 of the series. it is time now to fight with an ally, and see the interaction between different pirates crews.
To summarise, due to the fast, hard and multiple events at the same time in the new world, it is necessary to see the crew split and join forces with other strong ally. Oda needs to do that.
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@Kaido:
The Supernovas aren't the only non-Yonko/government forces in the New World, they're just major characters and so are going to get a big amount of focus. We've seen guys like Caribou, Brownbeard, Bartolomeo, and Cavendish considerably more than we've seen guys like Urouge, Bonney, and Drake. Also, their increased role in the story essentially boils down to something I mentioned earlier today: Law's philosophy that in order to conquer the New World, one has to either put themselves under the Yonko's protection or go for the jugular and actually attack the Yonko. So far, every member of the Worst Generation is fulfilling that requirement except for maybe Bonney. Special mentions go to Kid and Bege who essentially live and breathe that philosophy, for better or for worse. They ain't called the Worst Generation for nothing. Not to mention that given how most of them are currently faring when it comes to battling the Yonko, with none of them except possibly Bege and Luffy ever being shown to have a prayer, it speaks volumes as to how many pirates of previous generations are still relevant here in terms of the quest to be pirate king.
This isn't Paradise, where pirates from all walks of life test their sailing abilities and compete with each other as they begin their race towards the treasure. This is the home stretch, where only the best of the best compete and those who don't have a shot of it essentially fade into irrelevance. So it makes perfect sense why everything now boils down to the top dogs. There's always going to be side characters that contribute to the plot, like say Brownbeard, the samurai, the Grand Fleet members, and the residents of the islands the Straw Hats visit, but none of them are going to be realistic competitors to Luffy in terms of becoming Pirate King. It all boils down to Luffy, the Marines, the Warlords, the Yonko, and the few pirates who are ballsy enough to shake things up a little, or in the case of the Grand Fleet, the pirates who trust in other pirates to shake things up.
When stated like this, I guess what I'm trying to say is that I dislike how the supernovas = all from the same year and doing things at the same time (despite Luffy taking a 2 year gap) - are the only big boys challenging the yonko and shishibukai.
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When stated like this, I guess what I'm trying to say is that I dislike how the supernovas = all from the same year and doing things at the same time (despite Luffy taking a 2 year gap) - are the only big boys challenging the yonko and shishibukai.
Luffy is still the only one regularly going after Shichibukai, with Law being put into the Doflamingo mix because of a personal vendetta. I highly doubt the Supernovas are the only ones with aspirations to take on the Yonko, but are getting the main focus for two reasons: 1) They're major characters, and so are going to get the spotlights in a jam-packed world and 2) What many of them are currently doing now is occurring as a result of their interactions with Yonko in the past. They've moved past the stage where they go after the Yonko head on and are adopting more strategic approaches based on their experiences. Whilst the pirates before them are likely mostly dead or faded away, and the ones after them are too inexperienced to take their approach.
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When stated like this, I guess what I'm trying to say is that I dislike how the supernovas = all from the same year and doing things at the same time (despite Luffy taking a 2 year gap) - are the only big boys challenging the yonko and shishibukai.
That is a very weird thing to dislike.
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That is a very weird thing to dislike.
It makes the storytelling and world feel compressed. I'm not describing it well.
But think of Part 1, with events such as the Whitebeard War for instance; We saw Luffy's crew becuase they were the main focus, but we saw that there are many players of different shapes and sizes. The whole entire seperation of the Straw Hat Pirates at Sabaody and the escapade to save Ace did an excellent job at displaying that Luffy ain't the only player in the world.
But having all of the major players come from just one generation like that doesn't sit right with me. It's too convenient and contrived that half of the key pirates in New World would all coincidentally be rookies who landed on Sabaody Archipelago at the same time, and that pretty much all of them would survive the 2 years that Luffy was out of commision before things actually happened to them.
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Another pet peeve is the whole "new age" theme, which seems slightly vague at times. It'd help explain some of the issues I have - like if we are living in an age where pirates are uninspired or not.Is it that we had the great age of piracy that lasted up until early East Blue saga, then the "New Age" as described by Bellamy, which stated that pirates dreams are over (hence why most pirates in the series focus on pillaging lands like Captain Kuro, Bellamy, etc.), and then a new-new age, in which people are following the likes of Luffy and the worst generation to head into new world (like Brownbeard and some of Luffy's grand fleeet people)?
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It makes the storytelling and world feel compressed. I'm not describing it well.
But think of Part 1, with events such as the Whitebeard War for instance; We saw Luffy's crew becuase they were the main focus, but we saw that there are many players of different shapes and sizes. The whole entire seperation of the Straw Hat Pirates at Sabaody and the escapade to save Ace did an excellent job at displaying that Luffy ain't the only player in the world.
But having all of the major players come from just one generation like that doesn't sit right with me. It's too convenient and contrived that half of the key pirates in New World would all coincidentally be rookies who landed on Sabaody Archipelago at the same time, and that pretty much all of them would survive the 2 years that Luffy was out of commision before things actually happened to them.
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Another pet peeve is the whole "new age" theme, which seems slightly vague at times. It'd help explain some of the issues I have - like if we are living in an age where pirates are uninspired or not.Is it that we had the great age of piracy that lasted up until early East Blue saga, then the "New Age" as described by Bellamy, which stated that pirates dreams are over (hence why most pirates in the series focus on pillaging lands like Captain Kuro, Bellamy, etc.), and then a new-new age, in which people are following the likes of Luffy and the worst generation to head into new world (like Brownbeard and some of Luffy's grand fleeet people)?
But the story has always felt this compressed and convenient though. Luffy is the only one to ever defeat any of the Warlords, let alone three of them and allying with all of the others. We're supposed to believe that Luffy is treated as a rookie on-par with the rest of the Worst Generation even though his feats like storming Enies Lobby completely eclipse whatever they probably did off-panel (ignoring Blackbeard, of course). I wish the other Supernovas had more credibility to their reputations, but it's nothing that big to get into a fit about since their non-tragic flashback backgrounds are not what their plot-relevant roles will be focused around. Then there's stuff like Shanks turning out to be an Emperor, the straw hat being inherited from Roger, Garp being Luffy's grandfather, Ace being Roger's son, Dragon being Luffy's father, Teach happening to meet Ace at the perfect time to become a Warlord after already meeting Luffy in Jaya, etc. But we can still buy into all of this stuff because it doesn't contradict anything we already explicitly knew and it helps make the narrative feel all the more immersively connected, which makes us care about the characters and plotlines in play. Not meeting any of these characters until the arcs they become the most majorly relevant in makes them much more forgettable and coincidentally important in an awkward fashion.
We saw other pirate crews pre-timeskip, sure. But let's be real here. None of them have ever amounted to much, or ever will aside from Crocodile, Moria, and maybe Gin/Krieg. All of the East Blue villains were overconfident amateurs in a contained playground, and then the only relevant pirate crews besides the Straw Hats were the Warlords and Emperors. We would occasionally meet other crews like the Rolling Pirates, Foxy Pirates, and the Saruyama Alliance, but they were never big-shots to begin with. And Bellamy's crew, despite their intimidating introduction, were really a bunch of pretentious jokes. These guys only proved to be arc-exclusive supporting characters or minor antagonists.
The Supernovas are really the first ever pirate crews we've seen that are actually treated with notable story roles and potential besides the Straw Hats, Warlords, and Emperors. A LOT of stuff in this series is convenient and contrived. But narratively, it all still works out because these introductions help build up future major story events so that their roles have real weight behind them and suspension of disbelief is preserved. The Worst Generation being the only non-Warlord/Emperor pirate crews to get focus makes sense because of how they were built-up. It was awkward that we never heard of them before, but blame that on Oda deciding to put them into Sabaody Archipelago at the last minute instead of sticking with his original plan of likely having them appear for the first time in the future arcs they would have major roles in. Being a part of the Worst Generation only helps the story by building up their presence as early as possible rather than solely test suspension of disbelief.
I mean, imagine if we never met Bege until the Zou and Totland arcs. I already have a pet peeve about him staging his entire coup against Big Mom off-pane without any visualized pieces of how that process was accomplished. But imagine if we never met Bege until the Zou and Totland arcs. Wouldn't it feel so much more awkwardly plot convenient if this ally of Big Mom that we never met before just coincidentally had this coup already set up in an arc where the Straw Hats are being threatened by Big Mom in her own turf, and how he just happens to have the rationality to accept an alliance with Luffy? That would be ridiculous. The same goes for Law. How awkwardly rushed would it be if Law offered the alliance to take down Kaido in Punk Hazard without the already established relationship of Luffy meeting Law in Sabaody Archipelago and Law saving Luffy's life after the Marineford War due to planning ahead his New World exploits? It would feel so random and surreal.
Now look at Chinjao, a 500,000,000 Beli veteran pirate introduced out of the blue in the Dressrosa tournament who happened to have a vendetta against Garp's legacy. His presence felt random as hell. Not that his backstory is impossible to fathom or anything, it's a simple revenge plot and Garp has taken down many pirates throughout his life. But because his presence was not built-up before that moment, instead of finding him to be cool character I could care about, I was rather bewildered by him and didn't see him as more of a token threat. And fortunately, that's all he proved to be. If he played a more major role in the arc like rivaling Doflamingo for power or something, that would have felt so out of place given his sudden introduction and significant relevance to the story.
Introducing the Worst Generation was essential because it was a simple and organic way to build-up the pirate crews that would become important in the future, and have their feats and New World status be believable instead of random hype thrown into your face. And every major recurring character we know is part of some big multi-group faction at the end of the day, so it's fitting that Luffy finally finds a category to belong to in being a member of the Worst Generation, the ambitious New World rookies. It was a bit awkward how Luffy seemed to be the only rookie pirate that seemed to be making big headlines while everybody else seemed like a bunch of complacent or talentless chumps if they were not already an important titled figure.
The Great Age of Piracy always had pillaging. It was an age of dreams for everybody, and everybody has different dreams. A lot of those dreams include plenty of corrupt stuff, like pillaging. As soon as Whitebeard revived the Great Age of Piracy with his final words confirming One Piece's existence, literally the first non-Marineford event we see is Brownbeard invading and pillaging one of Whitebeard's now-former territories. That "New Age" nonsense Bellamy spat on about only came from misinterpreting Doflamingo's anarchist intentions and having the mentality of a punk with no bigger picture than acting on primal brutality and whimsical selfishness. It was only some buzzword that took up a few loose attention spans because of doubting something that was claimed decades ago. Legends and statements always have doubters, especially as time passes. It happens all of the time in real life. Especially in eras like modernism where people become disillusioned about subjects and activities that used to be upheld with fervent pride.
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But think of Part 1, with events such as the Whitebeard War for instance; We saw Luffy's crew becuase they were the main focus, but we saw that there are many players of different shapes and sizes. The whole entire seperation of the Straw Hat Pirates at Sabaody and the escapade to save Ace did an excellent job at displaying that Luffy ain't the only player in the world.
Are you talking about the characters that we already had seen it and/or heard about it or those Whitebeard Allies?
Because if we were talking about new people being introduced, I can only think of Squard, Oars Jr. and Vista.
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Actually, thank you for bringing up that quote, Kage.
But think of Part 1, with events such as the Whitebeard War for instance; We saw Luffy's crew becuase they were the main focus, but we saw that there are many players of different shapes and sizes. The whole entire seperation of the Straw Hat Pirates at Sabaody and the escapade to save Ace did an excellent job at displaying that Luffy ain't the only player in the world.
This only worked out well because all of these major players were built up before. We already knew about the existence of the Admirals, Emperors, and Warlords before the Marineford War. There are many players of different shapes and sizes, but they did an excellent job at showcasing worldbuilding because we saw how these initially separate familiar pieces were able to connect. They weren't all just randomly shoved into this conflict out of thin air with sudden in-depth introduction panels cluttering most of the arc's pages.
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@Count:
Actually, thank you for bringing up that quote, Kage.
This only worked out well because all of these major players were built up before. We already knew about the existence of the Admirals, Emperors, and Warlords before the Marineford War. There are many players of different shapes and sizes, but they did an excellent job at showcasing worldbuilding because we saw how these initially separate familiar pieces were able to connect. They weren't all just randomly shoved into this conflict out of thin air with sudden in-depth introduction panels cluttering most of the arc's pages.
you mention a lot of good points. I'm trying to figure out why it feels odd to me.
Obviously, Luffy did a lot of unprecedented crazy things during his grandline journey (beating Crocodile, fucking up Ennies Lobby, etc.). And he's had luck. But it fits well with the natural flow of things thematically for the story.
I have no problem with how the supernovas were introduced, or anything else. I just find it weird how there aren't people from in between/slightly before Luffy's generation becoming major players in the New World.
Maybe it's the presentation aspect? They usually claim "Yonko, Supernovas, Shishibukai" without ever mentioning "the oldies" like Crocodile (who plans to go to the New World), Old Whitebeard pirate crew, etc. I feel like they should pay some attention to the other groups, because there's this sense of "where's everybody else outside of this group?" that I didn't really feel in Part 1.
Think of Naruto and how the Rookie 9/Konoha 11 were big… but then no one else in the few years between them and Kakashi's generation were even named (I think), let alone given any story relevance.
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you mention a lot of good points. I'm trying to figure out why it feels odd to me.
Obviously, Luffy did a lot of unprecedented crazy things during his grandline journey (beating Crocodile, fucking up Ennies Lobby, etc.). And he's had luck. But it fits well with the natural flow of things thematically for the story.
I have no problem with how the supernovas were introduced, or anything else. I just find it weird how there aren't people from in between/slightly before Luffy's generation becoming major players in the New World.
Maybe it's the presentation aspect? They usually claim "Yonko, Supernovas, Shishibukai" without ever mentioning "the oldies" like Crocodile (who plans to go to the New World), Old Whitebeard pirate crew, etc. I feel like they should pay some attention to the other groups, because there's this sense of "where's everybody else outside of this group?" that I didn't really feel in Part 1.
Think of Naruto and how the Rookie 9/Konoha 11 were big… but then no one else in the few years between them and Kakashi's generation were even named (I think), let alone given any story relevance.
I get what you mean, especially when you use the Naruto analogy. But we're in an ocean where the Yonko are monopolizing everything. So there isn't really room for big names. And the thing about these types of action-adventure shonen narratives is that it's easier to build-up future relevant characters by putting them in a few generations instead of in-between ones, because that needs more spread out build-up and foresight to be worked in the story.
It's weird, but not something big enough to feel too awkward about because these are the only characters that really matter in the plot.
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@Count:
I get what you mean, especially when you use the Naruto analogy. But we're in an ocean where the Yonko are monopolizing everything. So there isn't really room for big names. And the thing about these types of action-adventure shonen narratives is that it's easier to build-up future relevant characters by putting them in a few generations instead of in-between ones, because that needs more spread out build-up and foresight to be worked in the story.
It's weird, but not something big enough to feel too awkward about because these are the only characters that really matter in the plot.
I think Rockstar is a good example of this, of how previous generations did not have much of a choice. It is exactly like Law said, you defeat yonkou or you ally to yonkou…
So far, nobody has defeated a yonkou (but Blackbeard), so if that's the case, then everybody before Luffy's generation has been defeated and killed by yonkou, or have allied to yonkou. That's why I mention Rockstar, he allied to Shanks, the same with Ace. Oda doesn't have to mention us every pirate before Luffy, but one you see pirates that are allied to whatever Yonkou, you may know that some of them are from previous generations than Luffy. (Many surely had been killed).
Plus, if we are getting focus on Luffy's generation is because it still hasn't happened what happened before or to illustrate what had happened before. Drake joint Kaidou (ally), Kidd was defeated by Kaidou, it is a common thing in the New World.
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I think Rockstar is a good example of this, of how previous generations did not have much of a choice. It is exactly like Law said, you defeat yonkou or you ally to yonkou…
So far, nobody has defeated a yonkou (but Blackbeard), so if that's the case, then everybody before Luffy's generation has been defeated and killed by yonkou, or have allied to yonkou. That's why I mention Rockstar, he allied to Shanks, the same with Ace. Oda doesn't have to mention us every pirate before Luffy, but one you see pirates that are allied to whatever Yonkou, you may know that some of them are from previous generations than Luffy. (Many surely had been killed).
Plus, if we are getting focus on Luffy's generation is because it still hasn't happened what happened before or to illustrate what had happened before. Drake joint Kaidou (ally), Kidd was defeated by Kaidou, it is a common thing in the New World.
I think we will see some big names outside of the yonkous like Mihawk and the remantents of WB pirates that are really strong, maybe not a lot but a few some more Roger pirates and Shiki at some point maybe, we also have Crocodile that could be interesting and hopefully more.
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How awesome wouldn't it have been if the Strawhats had met one of the Supernova crews in the grand line before Sabaondy? More importantly, before they got 100 million bounties? Like imagine Luffy running into Law or someone at a random island and they start out hostile, until they finally settle their differences and beat the shit out of a villain of some sort. Then imagine them meeting again in Sabaondy. It could be like this moment in Star Wars when Luke runs into Biggs.
Still, I really liked the way the supernovas were introduced, it created this sense that the grand line is pretty damn big and that there are unique crews from all walks of life going on journeys much like Luffy's. It does make me wonder what the other Supernovas could possibly have done to earn their reputations. But there is still time to develop on that.
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How awesome wouldn't it have been if the Strawhats had met one of the Supernova crews in the grand line before Sabaondy? More importantly, before they got 100 million bounties? Like imagine Luffy running into Law or someone at a random island and they start out hostile, until they finally settle their differences and beat the shit out of a villain of some sort. Then imagine them meeting again in Sabaondy. It could be like this moment in Star Wars when Luke runs into Biggs.
Oda probably could have done that, but he came up with the concepts for the Supernovas late in the series. It was only because of his editor wanting more excitement that he decided to debut all of them in Sabaody instead of whatever arcs they would play major roles in during the New World. If he thought about them more ahead of time pre-timeskip, then I'm sure we would have at least heard about a couple of them in a newspaper report or something.
Still, I really liked the way the supernovas were introduced, it created this sense that the grand line is pretty damn big and that there are unique crews from all walks of life going on journeys much like Luffy's. It does make me wonder what the other Supernovas could possibly have done to earn their reputations. But there is still time to develop on that.
I doubt Oda will expand on their past exploits unless it's important to an arc plot. Look at how Law and Bege's pasts only got brief references. But if Kid somehow has notable history with Shanks or if Bonney is somehow one of Linlin's daughters, then I can see a flashback for them. Actually, I can't really see full flashbacks for any of the Supernovas aside from Law and Kid. If the rest get any, it will probably be fused into other bigger/more important flashbacks like how we saw X Drake's backstory in Law's own flashback.
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@Count:
Oda probably could have done that, but he came up with the concepts for the Supernovas late in the series. It was only because of his editor wanting more excitement that he decided to debut all of them in Sabaody instead of whatever arcs they would play major roles in during the New World. If he thought about them more ahead of time pre-timeskip, then I'm sure we would have at least heard about a couple of them in a newspaper report or something.
Is this something he's said? It sounds like a very Oda situation, so it's not something I have a hard time believing anyway.
@Count:
I doubt Oda will expand on their past exploits unless it's important to an arc plot. Look at how Law and Bege's pasts only got brief references. But if Kid somehow has notable history with Shanks or if Bonney is somehow one of Linlin's daughters, then I can see a flashback for them. Actually, I can't really see full flashbacks for any of the Supernovas aside from Law and Kid. If the rest get any, it will probably be fused into other bigger/more important flashbacks like how we saw X Drake's backstory in Law's own flashback.
I can picture some exposition scenes where a marine official stand around going "Eustass Kid defeated a pirate with a 60 million berry bounty his first day in the Grand Line, massacred an entire town and now he's Kaido's lackey" or whatever. But yeah, I don't believe in any fullblown flashbacks as it stands. One could hope :ninja:
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Is this something he's said? It sounds like a very Oda situation, so it's not something I have a hard time believing anyway.
In Sabaody, Oda didn't intend to introduce supernovas at first, but only 3 hours after the editor advised him to make the story more exciting, Oda wrote a new story in which supernovas appeared. ONE PIECE Grand Countdown 2 (2010)
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Is this something he's said? It sounds like a very Oda situation, so it's not something I have a hard time believing anyway.
We have explicit words from Oda's editor that it was their idea to convince Oda to put the Supernovas into Sabaody. He even praised Oda for drawing up their designs in only a few hours. The part in my comment about how Oda planned to use these characters later in New World arcs has never really been mentioned, but I think it's very probable. I doubt that Oda came up with these heavily plot-relevant characters in only a few hours, and I have a feeling that even if the editor didn't say anything, we would have still seen a couple of Supernovas like Law and Kid present given how major their presences are in that arc.
In Sabaody, Oda didn't intend to introduce supernovas at first, but only 3 hours after the editor advised him to make the story more exciting, Oda wrote a new story in which supernovas appeared. ONE PIECE Grand Countdown 2 (2010)
I can picture some exposition scenes where a marine official stand around going "Eustass Kid defeated a pirate with a 60 million berry bounty his first day in the Grand Line, massacred an entire town and now he's Kaido's lackey" or whatever. But yeah, I don't believe in any fullblown flashbacks as it stands. One could hope :ninja:
Oh, throwaway generic hype-building lines like that? That can totally still happen lol. That is pretty much in the same style Bege's last minute backstory.
EDIT: Damnit, Galaxy…
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@Count:
Oh, throwaway generic hype-building lines like that? That can totally still happen lol. That is pretty much in the same style Bege's last minute backstory.
EDIT: Damnit, Galaxy…
I mean, even Game of Thrones get away with that type of stuff. And Oda has a way of framing these hyping exposition scenes in a way that makes sense. It usually happens in a setting where you'd expect people to say this type of stuff, like at a marine meeting or when people get to know eachother. The biggest exception would be that part just before Dressrosa, where Brannew just sits around with the marine high command and explain the meaning of the Schichibukai and all their members. And then Akainu just say " we already know this" as if he's speaking for the readers too. Oh, and Cracker. Like his blabbering explaining his power and the fact that he can't take pain was so hamfisted I almost considered taking a break from One Piece for a while.
Also thank you Galaxy for the link. Interesting stuff.
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I mean, even Game of Thrones get away with that type of stuff. And Oda has a way of framing these hyping exposition scenes in a way that makes sense. It usually happens in a setting where you'd expect people to say this type of stuff, like at a marine meeting or when people get to know eachother. The biggest exception would be that part just before Dressrosa, where Brannew just sits around with the marine high command and explain the meaning of the Schichibukai and all their members. And then Akainu just say " we already know this" as if he's speaking for the readers too. Oh, and Cracker. Like his blabbering explaining his power and the fact that he can't take pain was so hamfisted I almost considered taking a break from One Piece for a while.
Also thank you Galaxy for the link. Interesting stuff.
Yeah, they can sometimes be awfully cheesy and nonsensical to mention, which disillusions the reader about how hard the author is trying to engage them into new characters.
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@Count:
I get what you mean, especially when you use the Naruto analogy. But we're in an ocean where the Yonko are monopolizing everything. So there isn't really room for big names. And the thing about these types of action-adventure shonen narratives is that it's easier to build-up future relevant characters by putting them in a few generations instead of in-between ones, because that needs more spread out build-up and foresight to be worked in the story.
It's weird, but not something big enough to feel too awkward about because these are the only characters that really matter in the plot.
Yeah, that's pretty much it. That's why it's difficult to write action fantasy stories well.
I said it feels weird, but not weird enough that it hurts the show significantly. It's the only real flaw that the overarching story structure has, and I overlook it anyways because Oda has done a decent job of justifying it in the story (people who have sailed before this generation have been beaten or absorbed by the Yonkou and/or other top pirates like Doffy).
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I liked Bege's backstory quite a bit, brief as it was, since it successfully established why he was so infamous - head of a crime family, cause of multiple power struggles in West Blue, took out a ton of powerful pirate captains in the Grand Line. If we see Kid's past and his actions are on par with his first scene in the New World, and maybe even more gruesomely detailed, then I could definitely see why he's even topped Luffy.
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After re-reading Dressrosa a little bit, I was reminded of a future plot point. So Jean Ango says the Level Six ID prisoners who escaped are all hiding out together on a island. So, I wonder what's their role in the story to come? Sengoku said if even one got out, many people are in danger, so it's clear these guys are at least capable of stirring up some s***. But when and where?