It really truly hurts when I'm trying my damnedest to appear as my true self and someone tells me that I'm "a cool gal"
That is when I try to pretend I'm all okay, but deeps inside all I want is to cry.
It really truly hurts when I'm trying my damnedest to appear as my true self and someone tells me that I'm "a cool gal"
That is when I try to pretend I'm all okay, but deeps inside all I want is to cry.
Straight man talking here. Prepare for some ignorance.
I have respect for the LGBT community. They deserve all the rights and privileges that straight people have. What you do in your bedrooms and your lives is your business, and I'll defend that with my support and my vote, all the time.
But you'll never convince me that there are more than two genders. There is male, there is female. If, at some point in your life, you decide you want to switch up, or that you identify as the other gender. That is your right and I support it, but science/evolution/god/raptor jesus/logic made humans as either male or female.
I now await your page long thesis on why I am wrong.
I think the important part is to accept/respect, not necessarily understand. For example I personally don't think demi sexuality is a necessary term, but if someone chose to identify as such I'm not going to question them.
Same thing with gender. There are a lot of people who feel there are only two, and make no distinction between sex and gender. And that's fine, as long as those who wish to identify outside of that (be it non-binary, transgendered, etc.) have their feelings respected, and in the case of transgendered people are given the right to transition without facing backlash and bigotry.
Straight man talking here. Prepare for some ignorance.
I have respect for the LGBT community. They deserve all the rights and privileges that straight people have. What you do in your bedrooms and your lives is your business, and I'll defend that with my support and my vote, all the time.
But you'll never convince me that there are more than two genders. There is male, there is female. If, at some point in your life, you decide you want to switch up, or that you identify as the other gender. That is your right and I support it, but science/evolution/god/raptor jesus/logic made humans as either male or female.
I now await your page long thesis on why I am wrong.
Also, it looks like you didn't even read this thread because I have a similar view as you and came here asking for clarification. Matter of fact is we're stupid and like to simplify things to understand them but gender is not a simple concept, certainly not as simple as "you're either male or female, the end" or else all this confusion wouldn't even exist
Straight man talking here. Prepare for some ignorance.
I have respect for the LGBT community. They deserve all the rights and privileges that straight people have. What you do in your bedrooms and your lives is your business, and I'll defend that with my support and my vote, all the time.
But you'll never convince me that there are more than two genders. There is male, there is female. If, at some point in your life, you decide you want to switch up, or that you identify as the other gender. That is your right and I support it, but science/evolution/god/raptor jesus/logic made humans as either male or female.
I now await your page long thesis on why I am wrong.
Absolutes are off-putting. There's a plethora of gender identities and expressions out there. Are strictly male and female the most common? Sure. But that doesn't mean the others don't exist.
That is when I try to pretend I'm all okay, but deeps inside all I want is to cry.
Nolus, you're a really great guy.
Straight man talking here. Prepare for some ignorance.
I have respect for the LGBT community. They deserve all the rights and privileges that straight people have. What you do in your bedrooms and your lives is your business, and I'll defend that with my support and my vote, all the time.
But you'll never convince me that there are more than two genders. There is male, there is female. If, at some point in your life, you decide you want to switch up, or that you identify as the other gender. That is your right and I support it, but science/evolution/god/raptor jesus/logic made humans as either male or female.
I now await your page long thesis on why I am wrong.
If you're baiting, then just leave the thread, since all you're doing is making people angry.
Now if you're just being tsundere, and you're actually curious, but didn't want us to think that it was like you cared about it or anything, and are calling us a bunch of bakas to hide your true feelings, then just drop the act. Come back here, apologize, and then ask for real, and we'll be happy to address any of your questions.
Does Intersex counts as a gender?
Does Intersex counts as a gender?
Sex and gender are generally viewed as not the same thing. Sex is what you have between your legs and gender is what you feel yourself to be.
To be intersex is a purely biological thing that can mean a lot of things. It basically covers the situation in which someone is not purely a biological male or a biological female. Sometimes this condition aren't noticed until an examination sheds light to it. It is said that some people live their whole lives being intersex without being aware of it. That said, sometimes this condition needs treatment.
Intersex is not a gender. Here's a hopefully helpful little graph that shows sex, gender and gender presentation:
People who does not identify their genders as either man or woman can use third gender, genderfluid, agender, bigender etc.
Does Intersex counts as a gender?
The Intersex Society of North America doesn't advocate for intersex to be considered a "third gender" because it'll unnecessarily traumatize the child. Rather, they just say assign the child a boy or girl gender and if later they feel like they should be identified as something else then let them do so by their own consent.
http://www.isna.org/faq/gender_assignment
At least, that's how I read it.
As much as it's easy to think "we're born male or female, end of story", it's really far more complicated then that.
For instance, as mentioned before, intersex people are born biologically ambiguous, sometimes to the point of having two sets of functional genitalia and also at the chromosome level. There has been a lot of controversy over parents and doctors who decide to choose their sex for them by surgically removing the other. It's always seemed like the "normal" thing to do in the past, but some kids ended up rebelling against the choice made for them.
There are also several other conditions that people are born with that complicate the issue, such as Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, in which you have a person conceived with an XY chromosome, so genetically male, but their body is immune to the effects of androgens and therefore develop looking female in almost every way, at least in extreme cases. There was a AIS person that actually gave birth recently after taking hormones to increase the size of her uterus, though I think it was IVF because AIS people are usually born infertile. There is also XX male syndrome, and tons of other genetic anomalies that create something other than your standard XX female or XY male, but I don't want to go list and link to them all.
Sex and gender are generally viewed as not the same thing. Sex is what you have between your legs and gender is what you feel yourself to be.
To be intersex is a purely biological thing that can mean a lot of things. It basically covers the situation in which someone is not purely a biological male or a biological female. Sometimes this condition aren't noticed until an examination sheds light to it. It is said that some people live their whole lives being intersex without being aware of it. That said, sometimes this condition needs treatment.
Intersex is not a gender. Here's a hopefully helpful little graph that shows sex, gender and gender presentation:
https://trueliberalnexus.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/newspectrum.jpg
People who does not identify their genders as either man or woman can use third gender, genderfluid, agender, bigender etc.
That has to be the simplest and most on-point drawing I've seen on the subject so far.
Saving that to my folders.
If you're baiting, then just leave the thread, since all you're doing is making people angry.
Now if you're just being tsundere, and you're actually curious, but didn't want us to think that it was like you cared about it or anything, and are calling us a bunch of bakas to hide your true feelings, then just drop the act. Come back here, apologize, and then ask for real, and we'll be happy to address any of your questions.
I wasn't trolling, just stating a personal view. It of course could be wrong. I welcome polite discussion
I wasn't trolling, just stating a personal view. It of course could be wrong. I welcome polite discussion
You said a line you knew was controversial and then mocked any attempts to discuss it. That's not really how polite discussion works. That's just stirring shit. If you're actually curious, ask questions, and be receptive to change. If you're just going to say things you know will make people angry, though, and not actually discuss them, and then punctuate all of that by making fun of anyone who would discuss it, then you are baiting.
As it is, you have given us no reason to believe that you actually care about what we have to say, and that discussion with you is worth anything.
So I'll say it clearly: if you want to have a discussion, apologize for your tone and actually ask questions. The people here are very kind and receptive, and have experience discussing these things with people who do not understand them.
If you do not want a discussion, though, and just want to stick your dick into our pie, then please get out of this thread, or I will threadban you. If you want to continue this meta discussion, then you are free to PM me about it, but keep it out of this thread.
You said a line you knew was controversial and then mocked any attempts to discuss it. That's not really how polite discussion works. That's just stirring shit. If you're actually curious, ask questions, and be receptive to change. If you're just going to say things you know will make people angry, though, and not actually discuss them, and then punctuate all of that by making fun of anyone who would discuss it, then you are baiting.
As it is, you have given us no reason to believe that you actually care about what we have to say, and that discussion with you is worth anything.
So I'll say it clearly: if you want to have a discussion, apologize for your tone and actually ask questions and ask questions. The people here are very kind and receptive, and have experience discussing these things with people who do not understand them.
If you do not want a discussion, though, and just want to stick your dick into our pie, then please get out of this thread, or I will threadban you. If you want to continue this meta discussion, then you are free to PM me about it, but keep it out of this thread.
Dude, relax. I think you read a lot of insult in my post where there was none intended. But perhaps that is my fault for wording it wrong.
Look if I pissed people off here, I apologize. I did not mean such things. I was merely stating a view, that as I stated, comes from ignorance. I welcome other views, because I don't believe in dogmatic beliefs
I didn't mean to upset anyone, so let's relax and move on.
I wasn't trolling, just stating a personal view. It of course could be wrong. I welcome polite discussion
Did what I posted above give you any insight, then?
@Below:
Nolus, you're a really great guy.
Thank you~ I wish everyone would see me that way. Not necessarily the great part, but the guy part definitely.
@Zar:
That has to be the simplest and most on-point drawing I've seen on the subject so far.
Saving that to my folders.
Glad to have helped. I've read a lot on this subject over the summer and I'm slowly piecing it all together. It's not easy to understand, that's for sure. Even for a transguy like me, some things are so ingrained it's hard to question these things sometimes.
Did what I posted above give you any insight, then?
Indeed, it puts things into more perspective. Thanks for it.
Halfmetal-lich, I did get offended, but I'm glad it was out of a misunderstanding of your words more than anything truly offensive. I was tempted to reply right away, but it would have been ful of anger, and I'm glad I can answer more calmly.
My own personal point of view is that it doesn't make sense to determine gender by what's between the legs, or what's on the chest, or anything else. Men have a lot of different characteristics, and they don't all apply. Women are the same. I was assigned as a male when I was born. I learned a lot of things growing up about boys and girls. I didn't feel like a boy even though some of the definition fit me. But at the time I thought there were only two genders, and they were defined at birth. The more I grew up, the less sense it made, and when I met another transgirl, it all clicked into place.
Nolus posted a very good chart. Someone can be anywhere on these, the three are not necessarily linked in any way. And while I supposedly had normal male hormones, I didn't get a lot of muscle mass. I didn't grow a lot of facial or body hair. I grew breasts. Does that make me "male" or "female"? I think that's why it's hard for me to view things as only two choices, when there seems to be a number of ways it could be different for an individual.
People who does not identify their genders as either man or woman can use third gender, genderfluid, agender, bigender etc.
Super helpful, although I thought expression and identity were implied to be "together" when talking about gender. Can there be inverses? Can't a "woman" be "masculine"?
Too often I get 'gender' and 'sex' confused, that chart helps clear things up.
Super helpful, although I thought expression and identity were implied to be "together" when talking about gender. Can there be inverses? Can't a "woman" be "masculine"?
Gender identity and gender expression can and are different for many people. That's why the chart has them separated. Women can express themselves as masculine (people often refer to them as tomboys) and men can express themselves as feminine. And there shouldn't be a problem with that.
Super helpful, although I thought expression and identity were implied to be "together" when talking about gender. Can there be inverses? Can't a "woman" be "masculine"?
Think of gender expression as what you show to the world.
Using myself as an example:
Biological sex: female
Gender Identity: man, but not actually all the way through, I guess somewhere in the middle between third gender and man
Gender expression: masculine
However, I could choose not to present myself as my true self, and wear feminine clothing and use make-up etc.
Then, biological sex and gender would be unchanged, but gender expression would be feminine.
Hi Nolus, touches the moustache, missed you.
Ps: (Everyone) this thread has really been useful. :wub: . Top marks
@Serra:
Gender identity and gender expression can and are different for many people. That's why the chart has them separated. Women can express themselves as masculine (people often refer to them as tomboys) and men can express themselves as feminine. And there shouldn't be a problem with that.
Well that makes sense then. Thanks.
Think of gender expression as what you show to the world.
Using myself as an example:
Biological sex: female
Gender Identity: man, but not actually all the way through, I guess somewhere in the middle between third gender and man
Gender expression: masculine
However, I could choose not to present myself as my true self, and wear feminine clothing and use make-up etc.
Then, biological sex and gender would be unchanged, but gender expression would be feminine.
Again, thanks for the clarification. :)
No problem. Keep in mind though, this is how I know/interpret things I read from several sources.
But his thread is good since different people can share their own views and their own questions which helps everyone get around this complicated subject, because oh boy, it IS horrendously complicated.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Hi Nolus, touches the moustache, missed you.
Ps: (Everyone) this thread has really been useful. :wub: . Top marks
Hi Angelos~ Working has been tough lately, but I'm still here.
https://trueliberalnexus.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/newspectrum.jpg
This made me wonder. Since gender identity and expression can be different why does it matter what other people think your gender is? Your expression and identity might not even match and that'll definitely confuse some people and mistakes will happen so why would people getting your gender wrong a big deal? I feel like it's an honest mistake most of the time than an actually intended as an insult.
This made me wonder. Since gender identity and expression can be different why does it matter what other people think your gender is? Your expression and identity might not even match and that'll definitely confuse some people and mistakes will happen so why would people getting your gender wrong a big deal? I feel like it's an honest mistake most of the time than an actually intended as an insult.
From my experience, people feel compelled to know if someone is a boy or girl. And I have experienced a decent amount of shaming when I was young, to not portray myself as feminine. To me, it shouldn't matter. I think we have a long way to go before that's normalized.
As for getting gender wrong, it happens. The right thing would be to correct them, they apologize, and you move on. The problem comes when the other person says "no you're not" and won't listen to the person in question.
This made me wonder. Since gender identity and expression can be different why does it matter what other people think your gender is? Your expression and identity might not even match and that'll definitely confuse some people and mistakes will happen so why would people getting your gender wrong a big deal? I feel like it's an honest mistake most of the time than an actually intended as an insult.
There's a nice line between insult and an honest mistake. Of course is oned gender representation does not reflect how they feel (transman trying to be girly), people will treat them like that easily. Using the earlier example, a transman might do this to force himself into his assigned role, to hide his true self, or to simply try it out (the latter was the case with me mostly).
However, if one establishes that they belong to the other gender what they were assigned at birth, all should respect that. Mistakes happen, that's the nature of man, but don't intentionally call a transman a girl or a transwoman a guy.
Unfortunately, men and women have different social expectations. It's imperative for a lot of people to know your gender so they can gauge how they treat you. And that was a big thing for me for a long while (still is really); being treated as a woman. Of course, it all depends on who you ask and this is my personal experience with the matter and all that jazz.
This made me wonder. Since gender identity and expression can be different why does it matter what other people think your gender is? Your expression and identity might not even match and that'll definitely confuse some people and mistakes will happen so why would people getting your gender wrong a big deal? I feel like it's an honest mistake most of the time than an actually intended as an insult.
The issue really is that, regardless of whether we like it or not, the Gender binary exists. Society has dictated that the genders are male and female and a proper male is supposed to act a certain way and likewise, a proper female is supposed to act a certain DIFFERENT way.
There are folks trying to break it down to varying degrees. This varies wildly from the simple advancements we've made in gender equality over the years, like women getting the right to vote etc all the way to people who mess with the entire concept of the binary who consider themselves "Non-Binary". We're talking people who walk around in dresses with beards and the like. Google "Conchita Wurst". However, despite these advances and despite the efforts of non-binary folk, centuries of society has built this Binary system and society as a whole isn't just going to abandon it overnight.
Now, what that all means is: folks like me who identify as one part of the binary then usually make some level of an effort to present the same way as we feel. I'm a transwoman, so I do take a genuine effort to present myself as female. A transman likewise would try to present male.
Most folks will therefore look at us and decide whether we fit what society has judged is "Male" or "Female" and judge us accordingly. SOME people however, don't have that luxury, like:
A: People who are early in their transition, IE haven't taken any medication or surgeries or haven't learned any of the techniques on appearance.
B: People who, for various reasons, have a very hard time presenting their preferred gender. Like, bad bone structure or severe facial hair etc.
C: People who are still forced to present as their non-preferred gender for various reasons like work, school, unaccepting family etc.
I fall under the B Category myself. I've got a horrid manface that includes the chin of a chiseled Canadian Mounty. I don't look (nor sound tbh) like what society deems a typical female "Should" so misgendering happens and it's annoying. I think my body kinda makes up for it a bit and helps me from getting misgendered in person, but it happens a LOT over the phone. This is more voice related than face related, but I get misgendered on the phone all day at work and it annoys me to no end.
Nolus might count as a Category A which would be why some people still misgender him.
Now, that's for those of us who transition but still intend to fit into the gender binary. If you're trying to be outside of the Gender binary or to mess with it in any way… Well, I'm just gonna say, expect to be misgendered.
If you're a transman who identifies as a guy, but in an effort to screw with gender norms, you go out in a full-on dress... I'm sorry, but it's on you if people misgender you. I mean, if you're in a supportive situation, definitely correct folks and hope they stop misgendering you, but... it's kinda to be expected.
Not that I think that's how it SHOULD be, but again, we're not going to dissect the gender binary overnight, so that's the reality of the situation.
I was just surfing Arlongpark and saw this thread.
Anyway I believe who you identify as in gender is a mental illness unfortunately, but anyway..
I have absolutely no issue with transgender people as long as a transwoman isn't trying to take me to bed without me knowing. But then again if I never knew and never saw the person again I wouldn't mind and only have a good memory because I would think it is a woman. If the said person mentioned to me before anything, I would be content and respect the person even more.
I only saw one video of blair white but I would never have guessed "she" was a transgender and I was quite shocked when he said "I as a Transgender.."
I don't like the whole thing with "Gender Identity" people talking about how someone in public calls them "Miss" or "She" when they want to be addressed as "He" if you look like a girl or a guy expect to be called one. If you happen to be my friend, I'll call you by what pronoun you want me to call you by.
If that is a picture of Nolus in the profile picture (which I think so) I would say that is a woman from pure observance.
Anyway, thought I'd put this here
I was just surfing Arlongpark and saw this thread.
Anyway I believe who you identify as in gender is a mental illness unfortunately, but anyway..I have absolutely no issue with transgender people as long as a transwoman isn't trying to take me to bed without me knowing. But then again if I never knew and never saw the person again I wouldn't mind and only have a good memory because I would think it is a woman. If the said person mentioned to me before anything, I would be content and respect the person even more.
I only saw one video of blair white but I would never have guessed "she" was a transgender and I was quite shocked when he said "I as a Transgender.."
I don't like the whole thing with "Gender Identity" people talking about how someone in public calls them "Miss" or "She" when they want to be addressed as "He" if you look like a girl or a guy expect to be called one. If you happen to be my friend, I'll call you by what pronoun you want me to call you by.
If that is a picture of Nolus in the profile picture (which I think so) I would say that is a woman from pure observance.
Anyway, thought I'd put this here
Dude, if you're just going to bait people and make members uncomfortable, then why are you even posting in this thread. Misgendering people is really shitty, especially right in front of them. Unless you're going to add anything constructive, get out. If you come back at me in this thread with 'but it's just my opinion', and nothing else but a fight on that, then I will issue you a threadban. If you want to discuss this, PM me.
If you want to actually learn, though, then by all means, ask meaningful questions.
Dude, if you're just going to bait people and make members uncomfortable, then why are you even posting in this thread. Misgendering people is really shitty, especially right in front of them. Unless you're going to add anything constructive, get out. If you come back at me in this thread with 'but it's just my opinion', and nothing else but a fight on that, then I will issue you a threadban. If you want to discuss this, PM me.
If you want to actually learn, though, then by all means, ask meaningful questions.
I am not baiting anyone.
Misgendering people can be shitty for the person, of course. If it does happen, I just think for the sake of everyone and including the transgender people to just say "Sorry I am actually a boy/girl" and then the person that "misgendered" said person would say something like;
"My bad! I am very sorry" and then things move on.
It is really simple and constructive. If people thought like this and ignored the negativity or an honest mistake from certain people, everyone would actually be a lot more happier.
If this isn't "be nice about it" and helping people to not be offended I don't know what is.
This isn't a hypothetical. This is literally you doing it to a member of this forum in this thread. If you want to talk about being nice, then your next post in this thread had better be an apology to him. Otherwise that will show me that you aren't taking this seriously, and don't really want to have this discussion.
This isn't a hypothetical. This is literally you doing it to a member of this forum in this thread. If you want to talk about being nice, then your next post in this thread had better be an apology to him. Otherwise that will show me that you aren't taking this seriously, and don't really want to have this discussion.
I apologise to Nolus, I had a look into your previous posts and saw you really are hurt deep down.
Before I went into this thread I did not know he was a transgender which is an absolute honest no intent error in which I used to explain my point in the initial post. I've seen his posts for a while but never guessed what he chooses to identify as.
So corrective action;
Now I know how to not be offensive to a particular person I knew absolutely nothing about.
This is the next issue, anyone that gives someone a pronoun which is subconsciously used and selected based on what a person sees with their eyes, will get bashed for it by the LGBT community, then the community purposely makes the person who simply made an honest mistake to feel upset and possibly even abused by others.
To add to the discussion, my question is;
Why do the people in public who misgender someone need to be talked about and made into a big issue after using a pronoun without even thinking about it when addressing someone?
Example if my question isn't clear enough:
Someone who is a transgender is accidentally "misgendered" when a waiter in a restaurant asks "Excuse me miss" to someone that is actually trying to identify as a man. The waiter is unknowing and obviously has absolutely no intent or knowing that the person is transgender.
This person is offended and then proceeds to make videos and rants about it, feeling emotionally upset and creating an issue out of nothing. This is what I see in Majority of people in the community and this is an issue for anyone of the other people in society like myself, my friends and family.
(and please note I am trying to rush out of work writing a lengthy response on the computer).
This is what also needs to be talked about and I would like answers on.
I apologise to Nolus, I had a look into your previous posts and saw you really are hurt deep down.
Before I went into this thread I did not know he was a transgender which is an absolute honest no intent error in which I used to explain my point in the initial post. I've seen his posts for a while but never guessed what he chooses to identify as.
So corrective action;
- Apologise
- I respect the person and wish to talk to them as a friend more, so I respect them
- Move on
Now I know how to not be offensive to a particular person I knew absolutely nothing about.
This is the next issue, anyone that gives someone a pronoun which is subconsciously used and selected based on what a person sees with their eyes, will get bashed for it by the LGBT community, then the community purposely makes the person who simply made an honest mistake to feel upset and possibly even abused by others.
To add to the discussion, my question is;
Why do the people in public who misgender someone need to be talked about and made into a big issue after using a pronoun without even thinking about it when addressing someone?Example if my question isn't clear enough:
Someone who is a transgender is accidentally "misgendered" when a waiter in a restaurant asks "Excuse me miss" to someone that is actually trying to identify as a man. The waiter is unknowing and obviously has absolutely no intent or knowing that the person is transgender.
This person is offended and then proceeds to make videos and rants about it, feeling emotionally upset and creating an issue out of nothing. This is what I see in Majority of people in the community and this is an issue for anyone of the other people in society like myself, my friends and family.
(and please note I am trying to rush out of work writing a lengthy response on the computer).This is what also needs to be talked about and I would like answers on.
Ok, sure, I can be civil about this with you.
That's the first problem. You are treating this as an honest mistake, but nope, sorry, it's a stupid mistake that can actually hurt someone that could have easily been avoided. Honest mistake to me implies it was unavoidable, but nope, here it's just intentional ignorance. I hope that you realize this, but instead…
To more concretely answer your question focusing less on what you sound like: it's not that people make a big deal against the person who did the misgendering, moreso that in most cases where it is an honest mistake the ranting and venting and need to talk it out is simply one of many ways people can deal with stress. If you have an unpleasant interaction with a stranger, it's not rare to go to someone you know or are comfortable with to rant, right? Same thing. The anxiety caused by others misgendering you is an actual problem and it feels like shit, so a natural reaction is to want to talk it out and hopefully vent that emotion and move towards feeling better.
Do some people get too uppity about judging others? For sure, inevitably happens. But it is a fallacy to dismiss the rants and expression of several people because of those few. Not only that, this particular example is a very poor case since, again, it's not about people ganging up on you for an "honest mistake", but Wagomu sensing belligerence out of what was very obviously an avoidable error.
Also, while it may not be a thing you consider, there ARE people who do misgender intentionally. People who, to prove a point or whatever the case, WILL misgender someone who is obviously doing their best to present as the gender as which they identify. Same reason as to why it sounds insensitive when the response to Black Lives Matters is All Lives Matter… of course all lives matter, but some lives are very obviously being taken more than others HENCE the statement. Same here... obviously lots of feelings are at stake but it is obviously more of an issue for the people experiencing anxiety from gender dysphoria than it is for the people who don't want to feel shitty due to being obviously inconsiderate.
So there, that's another reason why people make it an issue, because far too many people dismiss it as something not important without actually understanding the damage they cause.
The attitude of "this is what... needs to be talked about" also kinda bothers me. Are you implying that what actually matters is just how other people feel about their misgendering of trans folk? I'd daresay I care more about how trans folk feel after being blatantly and stupidly misgendered than about the feelings of the person causing the harm. If it was an honest mistake, usually the person involved will apologize, do their best to correct and move on.
Using the situation as an example to argue for how much "a big deal" others make is a defensive approach that seems to throw dirt at the other side. It implies belief that the "honest mistake" was a mistake but not something worth having been called out on, which diminishes the importance of others' feelings over yours.
I may be mis-remembering, but you entered the conversation referring to the gender identity issues as mental disorders. Saying that someone else's experience of which you know nothing about means they have a disorder is something I would consider lofty and offensive.
My two-cents:
As a transgender person, I understand the confusion anyone might feel about people like me. After all, we basically question something that is/was considered universal and self-explanatory. For this reason, some people feel like (using an Orwellian example) being forced to think that 2+2 is 5 and not 4. They feel it is a tactic to brainwash the populus, to control them and whatnot, to see how people can follow one another like a sheep without having the will and desire to stand up and say "No, it's not 5, 2+2 is 4 and has always been and will always be. No changing that".
Thing is, transgenderism is not 2+2. For one, 2+2 is a simple, basic thing that operates within the strict rules of mathematics. There we can find formulas and statements that can be and absolutely are applied in every scenario (I understand math has many sides and that this is a very horrible simplification of it, but let's just talk about basic math here). There is hardly any set of rules universally accepted and useful-for-everyone.
It's a mighty complicated issue, and understanding it takes time and above all determination to actually comprehend this vast subject. Many people may not even have a strong cause to know more about it all, because they themselves are not transgendered, or have no family members/friends/etc. that are and so on.
This thread is a good way of getting and sharing information in bits and not in bulk as a book would do.
Regarding misgendering, yeah, truth is, for me and a lot of others, it's kind of a bad feeling when people misgender us regardless of the cause or intention. No getting around that but accepting it and deal with it as best as one can.
This is not my first time someone misgendered me. It happened all the time when I was a kid (note: then I thought I was a girl and people kept seeing me a boy because of short hair and lack of secondary sexual characteristics: boobs). I can put these instances into two categories. A: mostly adults, old people, teachers etc. who, upon glancing at me from far away/from behind/for the first time would mislabel my as a boy. Quickly they apologized and it was really nothing unpleasant, it was a thing that happened from time to time, no biggie. B: mostly kids and students who would rudely ask me in the middle of the school corridor if I was a boy or a girl. It was a way of making fun of me, and even people did that that I couldn't even recognize. Like, who the hell were they?
It's just my own personal example and it's kind of backwards, but I think the difference is self-explanatory.
I can't speak on behalf of all of the LGBTQ community, but I honestly doubt most of us would lash out on the waiter/waitress in your example. It would be awkward for a while and I would most likely need a minute or two to process what happened, but I wouldn't rant on Facebook or anything. I'd share it with somebody I trust, I'd even write to this thread to ask how others deal with these situations and that's it.
Of course there will be people who'll "explode" on the spot, but they're few.
Onto the next thing.
@SuburbanErrorist:
Anyway I believe who you identify as in gender is a mental illness unfortunately, but anyway..
You don't end that kind of sentence with a "but anyway".
Please understand that the very thing you wrote is not only hurting to others, but also infuriating. The half-assed tone just puts oil to the fire, so to speak.
Putting gender-dypshoria into the mental illness category implies a lot of unwanted things. We're not crazy. It's not just our imagination. Our feelings are valid. Just like you don't dismiss depression like "Get over it" you won't solve anything with "You're imagining things so you can feel special".
Another thing is, I doubt a lot of people who make these statements are psychologists/psychiatrists. It is true that some mental health professionals do think it's best categorized as a mental illness, but the majority is debating all the time. There are reasons why gender dysphoria is still officially (as far as I know) a mental health issue, but they have more to do with allowing people to get help from the government for it. Without it being in the Big Book of Mental Illnesses (not the actual title of the book), many wouldn't even be able to get financial help. That's how I know it anyway.
See, once again we arrived at a point where everything becomes blurred and there are no absolutes. One can't explain such a thing in one post. Books are hardly sufficient for that even.
So, how would you feel if someone called you the wrong gender? Would you not feel hurt by it too?
This is not my first time someone misgendered me. It happened all the time when I was a kid (note: then I thought I was a girl and people kept seeing me a boy because of short hair and lack of secondary sexual characteristics: boobs). I can put these instances into two categories. A: mostly adults, old people, teachers etc. who, upon glancing at me from far away/from behind/for the first time would mislabel my as a boy.
slaps forehead That's right.
Misgendering can apply….well, in any context where it happens. Not just in a situation where the person is transitioning or established themselves as transgender.
The notion of "hey [girl]! you looked like a [boy]!" is usually seen in cartoons and stuff as a comedic thing but it falls under the same umbrella. Thanks for reminding me.
Oh, it looks like a troll has finally come in to attack, I'll just-
I apologize to Nolus, I had a look into your previous posts and saw you really are hurt deep down.
Before I went into this thread I did not know he was a transgender which is an absolute honest no intent error in which I used to explain my point in the initial post.
Well… Ok then, That was a good step in the right direction towards actually wanting to have a discussion about this... Torch and pitchfork goes back where it came from for now.
Ok, so let's actually look at what you're saying and respond to it then.
This is the next issue, anyone that gives someone a pronoun which is subconsciously used and selected based on what a person sees with their eyes, will get bashed for it by the LGBT community, then the community purposely makes the person who simply made an honest mistake to feel upset and possibly even abused by others.
To add to the discussion, my question is;
Why do the people in public who misgender someone need to be talked about and made into a big issue after using a pronoun without even thinking about it when addressing someone?
Ok, a few things about this one.
First, misgendering sucks. From the context of your posts I'm gonna assume you aren't trans, so you don't exactly know how it feels. It sucks, quite a bit. It can definitely be distressing, maybe even depression inducing.
Now, that being said, this doesn't make outright attacking an individual for making an honest mistake okay… at least in my opinion.
When a genuine mistake is made, I believe the next step is to correct the mistake (IE: "I'm a woman, please don't call me 'sir', thank you") and be done with it. As long as the person then respectfully corrects themself, there shouldn't be an issue...
But there ARE plenty of assholes out there who will keep misgendering the trans people to be hurtful. It's basically the person saying they don't respect the trans person or their gender identity so they're gonna use the wrong pronouns almost entirely to try to make their point.
THOSE people deserve scorn and attacks because they're the ones being hurtful in the first place. In those cases, the attacks aren't unwarranted, they're retaliatory.
As for another thing you said, it ties in nicely with this too:
Example if my question isn't clear enough:
Someone who is a transgender is accidentally "misgendered" when a waiter in a restaurant asks "Excuse me miss" to someone that is actually trying to identify as a man. The waiter is unknowing and obviously has absolutely no intent or knowing that the person is transgender.
This person is offended and then proceeds to make videos and rants about it, feeling emotionally upset and creating an issue out of nothing. This is what I see in Majority of people in the community and this is an issue for anyone of the other people in society like myself, my friends and family.
Ok, first, in your example you gave, you failed to specify a couple of things that have a big effect on how I'd view it.
This transman who is offended and is making videos and rants about it, are they specifically attacking the person who misgendered them, or are they just venting about being upset at the misgendering?
Being misgendered sucks. It IS to some extent demoralizing and upsetting. Even if it's unintentional, It's still upsetting.
I'm a transwoman, and I put effort into presenting as such. When someone misgenders me by mistake, IE they aren't being mean about it, they just, for some reason, read me as a man… it hurts... It means all the effort I put in was apparently worthless... It's very distressing and upsetting. I can easily see someone needing to vent about that. If you see someone talking about how much being misgendered sucks, but they aren't specifically calling anyone out, what exactly is the problem?
I get misgendered at work All day... like all day every day... it sucks.... terribly... it upsets me... But I've never shamed the person doing it or attacked them. I acknowledge that they aren't doing it to be hurtful and whenever I correct them they are apologetic and they start using the right pronouns at that point.
Moreso to that tho, if they DO call someone out and say "This is the person who misgendered me!" in their ranting... are we now SURE that the offending misgenderer did so because of a mistake? Sometimes, people ARE jerks and misgender on purpose to hurt.
For example, Caitlyn Jenner and Chelsea Manning are pretty polarizing people. Jenner is a transwoman throwing herself into the activism stage and trying to advocate and be a figurehead for trans people... while simultaneously being politically aligned with people and interests that are VERY anti-trans... Chelsea Manning was a government whistleblower who exposed some facets of government corruption and then came out as trans after being incarcerated. Some people see what she did as patriotic for exposing government corruption... some people see it as treason because the info she exposed was classified.
So yeah, polarizing people, it's very common to find someone who has legitimate issues with these two and not like them as people very much... But they're still transwomen which means they're still women.
I often see comment sections of news stories talking about them saying, basically "I won't respect their gender identities because they're bad people". The reason that's bad is obvious. There isn't a "good person" requirement to respecting someone's gender identity, and if you say there is, that shows you don't really respect the concept of Gender Identity to begin with.
Again, this is the kind of person who I believe would deserve some kind of blow-back.
But if it's a genuine mistake? I would be against shaming or attacking a person for that, but then again I'm pretty active in keeping up with LGBT news and the like and I see news stories all the time, and I've never really seen it become a big deal when it's an honest mistake from someone who is genuinely apologetic and tries to correct themselves after the misgendering.
It seems like people can be easily offended. So lets be civil and present facts, people come in here and say what they have to say, but they are shut down, and quite fairly because they didn't want to discuss anything like some other guy in the thread which is fair.
But I have provided facts and evidence and I want people to look at it and not be shut down as a "transphobe" for actually caring about people but outlining the solution is different to what the mainstream is delivered by the media.
Please read the entire post.
Ok, sure, I can be civil about this with you.
- It is perfectly valid in this context for Wagomu to have jumped at you for a very simple reason, that being that you came to this thread and without paying attention to anyone in here or reading, you proceeded to misgender someone.
If someone were to enter this thread with actual intent of participating in a discussion and learning, they would have started by reading what other people are saying.
How did I proceed to misgender someone? I am not someone that comes on forums to say "Hmm this person is a female, hmm this person is a male", I see a picture of someone I make a quick 1 second subconscious declaration that someone is a female or male. When I enter this thread, I was surprised that someone I thought was a girl was actually someone that chooses to identify as a man. If you go back a couple pages, you'll find someone else said the same thing but no one said anything.
I've apologised honestly.
That's the first problem. You are treating this as an honest mistake, but nope, sorry, it's a stupid mistake that can actually hurt someone that could have easily been avoided. Honest mistake to me implies it was unavoidable, but nope, here it's just intentional ignorance. I hope that you realize this, but instead..
Again I am being attacked for something I didn't do, I gave a reason why people misgender and is perfectly factual and valid. People are viciously being bullied from the transgender community (not all from the community) and giving non factual views to the rest of the populace to view transgenderism as "objective". But this is due to the leaders etc. That brings me to the governmental side..
The real issue is that the federal government has decided that certain subjective realities can now be imposed on everyone with force of government
Yet the government says that if you believe there is a god, and therefore that you believe that god gave us a bible, and therefore you believe that it's sinful to attend a same sex wedding, the government says your subjective reality must be overruled by our version of reality in which the bible is nonsense and must serve the gay couple. That's what the federal government essentially says. They say that your subjective reality as a religious person is irrelevant to our concerns but when it comes to a transgender a person saying they're a girl, we have to abide by their subjective reality. We can't use any objective measures of reality.
- You don't seem to be taking it as a learning experience, but as a launchpad into making your own argument that trans people get too uptight about people who misgender them. It's a very defensive attitude that does not show eagerness to converse, regardless of the tone you pursue, but that shows eagerness to brush away responsibility or interest in how other people feel.
Well I've given food for thought, feed on it. Another problem with society is that people run on feelings and not facts, just look at the black lives matter movement.
To more concretely answer your question focusing less on what you sound like: it's not that people make a big deal
against the person who did the misgendering, moreso that in most cases where it is an honest mistake the ranting and venting and need to talk it out is simply one of many ways people can deal with stress. If you have an unpleasant interaction with a stranger, it's not rare to go to someone you know or are comfortable with to rant, right? Same thing. The anxiety caused by others misgendering you is an actual problem and it feels like shit, so a natural reaction is to want to talk it out and hopefully vent that emotion and move towards feeling better.
Do some people get too uppity about judging others? For sure, inevitably happens. But it is a fallacy to dismiss the rants and expression of several people because of those few. Not only that, this particular example is a very poor case since, again, it's not about people ganging up on you for an "honest mistake", but Wagomu sensing belligerence out of what was very obviously an avoidable error.
The problem isn't ranting about it to friends saying this person did x. The problem is turning it into a movement where transgender activists viciously attack "cis gendered" people and then bully them, which is hypocritical. It is not right for anyone to be bullied and I mention how this can be counteracted.
There are even a new slang derogatory terms from the community attacking "cis gendered" people. Unfortunately it's hypocritical, the community doesn't like it done to them but they do it to others as payback. Fighting fire with fire.
Also, while it may not be a thing you consider, there ARE people who do misgender intentionally. People who, to prove a point or whatever the case, WILL misgender someone who is obviously doing their best to present as the gender as which they identify. Same reason as to why it sounds
insensitive when the response to Black Lives Matters is All Lives Matter... of course all lives matter, but some lives are very obviously being taken more than others HENCE the statement. Same here… obviously lots of feelings are at stake but it is obviously more of an issue for the people experiencing anxiety from gender dysphoria than it is for the people who don't want to feel shitty due to being obviously inconsiderate.
So there, that's another reason why people make it an issue, .
People that misgender people intentionally? In school? If someone is bullying you you simply have to ignore it. Every year, everyday of my schooling, my entire life, online and offline involved me getting bullied and made fun of when I am a perfectly normal and not ugly person and even took suicide counselling. Although personally I am afraid of all kinds of suicide, but that's another topic.
People need to ignore ignorant people, if only people did this. I one day looked at all my facebook friends, looked and deleted whoever was not nice to me, someone that was not really a friend at school or outside of school, someone that insults me often, posts on my photos for everyone to see them making fun of me. I removed these people. Now I feel so much better and on the online sector, and even offline I am not bullied by anyone because I am around people that don't bully me and if some stranger starts to bully me, why should I care about baseless assumptions?
Now you mention the black lives matter movement. The black lives matter movement is that is based on absolutely no factual evidence whatsoever and are delusional because of the government and media because they are told they are the victims. This is the issue, the media and the left are not directing attention to the facts, instead they talk about police being racist towards blacks.
Last year there 6000 blacks that were killed but only a small fraction were killed by the police. If we actually look at the facts, last year 561 people were killed by cops
Of those 561 deaths
275 were White
136 were Black
86 were Latino
This is a small sub section of the black community, we also need to consider that blacks actually commit 6 times more crimes than the national average. People are being mislead by politicians making black people froth at the mouth.
One could argue that the 136 blacks that were killed is large due to the black population being much much smaller compared to the whites which is true.
But 40% of the police are killed by blacks and they represent 6% of the population. This means police rock up with a 40% chance of dying compared to when dealing with white people. People also ignore the fact that 6% of the population are responsible for 52% of the populations crime, although this number has dropped around the 40's recently.
But you know the government is in insisting on continuing this cycle of destruction in the community making people feel like victims to racism when they are not. If black lives matter did actually care about black lives they would be confronting the 90% + deaths of blacks which are by the hands of blacks but these issues are ignore completely.
because far too many people dismiss it as something not important without actually understanding the damage they cause
Oh no, I agree it is an absolute important issue. But the problem is the government is handling this incorrectly. When you have 40% of transgenders attempting suicide and the numbers actually elevate post surgery to 45% this is an issue. When the 36% of transgenders who never mentioned to any one of their circles or family that they are transgender are the ones who attempted suicide, this is an illness.
But instead of treating this as an illness the government is embracing this and going for transgender surgery (If this is branded as too offensive, unfortunately facts don't care about anyone feelings>). There is no such thing as a female brain existing in a male body, it doesn't work that way. This is not how biology works there is nothing more than unscientific than this notion of magical transgender fluidity.
This is also being forced on children to have this view. Facts show that 80% of children that have a gender confusion, not even gender dysphoria will grow out of it, but the government and parents want to support their young child that if he or she thinks they are a female or a boy, they need to be operated on.
You realise we live in a society now where if an adult were to touch a child sexually, note that we are talking about a 10 or 11 year old, that would be paedophilia and we should put that person into jail and have him castrated as they should be. Why so even if the kid says they gave consent? Because children are not capable of consent, this is the basis of all paedophilia law. However if that 10 or 11 year old says "I am a girl" when they are biologically a boy and you chop off that persons genitalia or you give hormonal treatment to shrivel genitalia and prevent hormonal development then you are a hero.
So in other words if you are a doctor and you touch a kids privates without consent you go to jail if you touch a kids privates and give that kid a shot to prevent the development to the privates and then prepare the kids privates to be chopped off, you are a hero.
There was an incident with a transgender boy entering female locker rooms. What the federal government has now decided in this particular case is that the high school has violated the student's rights. The student who is identified as a girl for a number of years, filed a complaint with the office of civil rights in late 2013 as she was denied unrestricted access to the girls locker room.
First of all, this is a full biological boy complete with male genitalia. Districts and federal officials negotiated for months and the solution appeared imminent as the district put privacy curtains in the locker room. The district complied and they would allow this boy into the girls locker room.
So this biological boy can get naked in the locker room but are there are curtains so the girls aren't forced to look at the male anatomy.
They can't object it, he said no these girls should all be forced to look at my genitals, if I want to show my genitals these girls have to be forced to look at my genitals.
So this is the magical world that left has created. Now if a boy were to enter in his classroom show a girl a picture of himself naked to the girl, that violates two laws, child pornography laws and sexual harassment. It is sexual harassment for a boy to unsolicited show his parts to a girl. However if the boy pretends to be a girl or is mentally ill and thinks they're a girl, not only can he show his parts, the girl is obligated to be in a position to look at it. And its discrimination if the girl says she doesn't want to see that, and that just means she is a sexist, she hates women, because she doesn't want to look at a penis.
This is the logic of the left.
I may be mis-remembering, but you entered the conversation referring to the gender identity issues as mental disorders. Saying that someone else's experience of which you know nothing about means they have a disorder is something I would consider lofty and offensive.
I touched on this above and gave statistics, there is absolutely no biological proof that a female brain is in a males body, there is nothing to support this notion. It is impossible for a man to become female and vice versa, they can make themselves look like what they desire to be. Keep in mind there is no improvement in suicide rates, in fact it is worse, not only this we’re even seeing the growth of a cottage industry of mediocre male boxers who declare themselves “women” and start dominating female competitions, doing serious injury to the "cis" women in the process . There’s no evidence that surgery is the best way forward for everyone, or even anyone, with this condition, and doctors who pioneered it are now coming out and saying so These transgender people are desperately in need of compassion and psychiatric care and they are disproportionately likely to be the victims of violent crime. Though not rape, for some reason.
These problems can’t be fixed so long as the media keeps lying to us about transgenderism, and refusing to have honest discussions about “trans teens” (and even trans toddlers) and whether it’s fair that someone with the upper body strength of a man should be able to kick the shit out of a female athlete simply by announcing that he is “trans.”
If I as a taxpayer have to pay for surgery, I want to be sure that (a) it’s in your best interests, (b) you’re not going to change your mind in a few years and you’re not going to kill yourself shortly afterwards anyway. If you don’t agree with me about transition surgery, by the way, that’s okay. As I say, the science is still out. People are ready to have an honest and fact-based discussion about what the best treatments might be for gender dysphoria. But trans activists don’t want to do that. Instead, they celebrate parents who announce that their five-year-old kids are “trans” and whack them on hormones when all the evidence suggests that, left to their own devices, these kids will grow up to be perfectly happy gay men.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Sorry I am currently in work, and actually took a lot of time writing this post in my work time. So I can't reply to everyone.
….This was very disrespectful. On so many levels. I'm at work and don't have the time to wade into everything that was cold and so unempathetic about what SuburbanErrorrist just wall of texted.
The start of that paragraph alone was very pointlessly defensive and rude.
Well that giant wall of unrepentant, disgusting, bigoted garbage deserves a threadban, at least.
If a consensus of the main voices in this thread- the people directly affected by his bigotry- honestly want him back in here for a proper edjumacation (good luck with that lol), let me know and I'll reluctantly reverse it.
If I as a taxpayer
media keeps lying to us about transgenderism
prepare the kids privates to be chopped off, you are a heroWe can't use any objective measures of reality
This post is a goldmine of garbage. Pacific ocean isn't enough to dump it there. I don't know, a full ban is thoroughly deserved imo, but just hammer him down on his "facts".
scans post
Okay, really wasn't expecting Black Lives Matter and pedophilia to show up in the conversation.
I couldn't even get through the entire post, it was so unpleasant.
And "didn't know he was trans" my ass, of all people you can target and all things you could discuss the first thing you do is misgender the one person who'll be hurt by it the most? Not gonna fall for that.
–------------
If anyone wants to discuss something more pleasant I have a question. I'm interested in including some LGBT characters in some comics, and I'm curious what you consider good LGBT characters? Do you have any examples of existing characters that you like, and/or things you'd like to see more of? And on the flip-side, what are things to avoid when writing such characters?
I'm a big fan of the "not in your face" approach that some shows utilize - that is, a character being LGBT isn't their whole existence. They're treated like any other characters with personal likes, hobbies, personality... so you never outright write "hey X is a lesbian" but rather let the reader figure it out for themselves. Some bad things I've noticed is the trend for non-hetero relationships to be secondary, same-sex relationships being made for the opposite sex's enjoyment (Yaoi/Yuri often get this complaint), LGBT characters being killed off and the character is mostly comedic and played for laughs.
scans post
Okay, really wasn't expecting Black Lives Matter and pedophilia to show up in the conversation.
You weren't? That's how you know it's sound logic.
Seriously though. I'm not transgender and that even seriously pissed me off.
The "the sciene proves my facts." Guy is as irritating and wrong as the guy who says "My holy book says this."
:getlost:
Not to mention that even from a scientific perspective he is wrong; there is significant research and evidence. But hey, being left-handed used to be considered a "disorder." Anything that doesn't conform to what you're used to can be waved away as an evil malfunction. It's a meaningless and insulting categorization.
@Zar:
If anyone wants to discuss something more pleasant I have a question. I'm interested in including some LGBT characters in some comics, and I'm curious what you consider good LGBT characters? Do you have any examples of existing characters that you like, and/or things you'd like to see more of? And on the flip-side, what are things to avoid when writing such characters?
I'm a big fan of the "not in your face" approach that some shows utilize - that is, a character being LGBT isn't their whole existence. They're treated like any other characters with personal likes, hobbies, personality… so you never outright write "hey X is a lesbian" but rather let the reader figure it out for themselves. Some bad things I've noticed is the trend for non-hetero relationships to be secondary, same-sex relationships being made for the opposite sex's enjoyment (Yaoi/Yuri often get this complaint), LGBT characters being killed off and the character is mostly comedic and played for laughs.
I think you're off to a good start. Don't have it up front. Unless something happens in your story to actually differentiate the LGBT person, who really cares? If someone is lesbian but there's no romantic scenes, then it actually doesn't matter if they are lesbian or not. For instance. When I think of characters when I consider writing stories, I have gotten into the habit of deciding if they are trans* or not, and what sexuality they are. Is it because I'm considering what to do in the story with them? No, just that I want to know just in case I need to and I don't make a snap decision later.
@Zar:
I couldn't even get through the entire post, it was so unpleasant.
And "didn't know he was trans" my ass, of all people you can target and all things you could discuss the first thing you do is misgender the one person who'll be hurt by it the most? Not gonna fall for that.
–------------
If anyone wants to discuss something more pleasant I have a question. I'm interested in including some LGBT characters in some comics, and I'm curious what you consider good LGBT characters? Do you have any examples of existing characters that you like, and/or things you'd like to see more of? And on the flip-side, what are things to avoid when writing such characters?
I'm a big fan of the "not in your face" approach that some shows utilize - that is, a character being LGBT isn't their whole existence. They're treated like any other characters with personal likes, hobbies, personality... so you never outright write "hey X is a lesbian" but rather let the reader figure it out for themselves. Some bad things I've noticed is the trend for non-hetero relationships to be secondary, same-sex relationships being made for the opposite sex's enjoyment (Yaoi/Yuri often get this complaint), LGBT characters being killed off and the character is mostly comedic and played for laughs.
I notice a lot that trans in media usually start out as already transitioned or full time in some other way, and I understand that such a thing is probably to allow focus on the character as the gender they identify as.
That said, I personally have always wanted to see more media have characters that are around for a while but are trans and don't realize it/learn about it/transition until a couple story arcs in. Reason being that I find it an interesting way to go into how perceptions change, how people around the character deal with the change, and also to show the sort of decisions and courage involved in coming out. And yea, naturally there'd be more to the character than just being trans.