Bleach Discussion 0: Hello Darkness my old friend

.access timeco.

So basically, Nanaos mother blamed the all-women family curse (Where did this come from?) on the family sword (why?), and wants to get rid of it.
So Shunsuis sword spirit spawns ANOTHER sword spirit (how?) for the express purpose of hiding the cursed sword (how do you hide a physical Zanpak inside the spirit-version of another zanpak?) because that might make the curse go away (why? Just because its hidden?)
Appearantly Nanao knows all about the curse, the sword, her mother, Shunsui not wanting to give the sword back - yet we still need to go over the whole thing purely for the benefit of the readers. its literally "AS YOU KNOW", "YES, I KNOW".

So you are left with the same questions as me. Mainly the whole thing about a zanpakuto spawning other just because the owner wanted so… why doesn't everyone has 100 zanpakutou with 100 different abilities then? Shinigami can't dream big...

Another thing, this screws the time line SOOOOO badly.

We see Shunsui as a kid when his brother was already married.
We know his brother died soon after being married.
We saw Shunsui as a young adult was still an academy student (so he is not a Hitsugaya who became a captain while being a kid)
We know Shunsui has been a captain for at least 200 years by now
100 years ago, we saw Nanao was still a little kid.

So either Nanao's mother makes Rouge look like a halfassed pussy and held Nanao in her womb from over a century or Kubo screwed up.

TitanG545

@KageKageKing:

Should this curse killed Shunsui centuries ago then?
Bleach Lore makes no sense.

No it wouldn't kill him, because he isn't married or involved romantically with a woman from the house of Ise. What a horrible chapter, I could see if Lisa took the sword and put on her hollow mask. But a vice captain now has enough resolve with this dues exmachina blade to win this fight. I am not really getting the incest vibe because I only read the MS translation. Especially based off the fact she always dodges his advances and seems to keep everything professional with him. I think he had stronger feelings towards her older sister, might I add another wasted opportunity for Kubo. Someone's twin basically shows up who was your predecessor and it is never explored.

Razh

@.access:

So you are left with the same questions as me. Mainly the whole thing about a zanpakuto spawning other just because the owner wanted so… why doesn't everyone has 100 zanpakutou with 100 different abilities then? Shinigami can't dream big...

Another thing, this screws the time line SOOOOO badly.

We see Shunsui as a kid when his brother was already married.

We know his brother died soon after being married.

We saw Shunsui as a 18~20yo that still as an academy student (so he is not a Hitsugaya who became a captain while being a kid)

We know Shunsui has been a captain for at least 200 years by now

100 years ago, we saw Nanao was still a little kid.

So either Nanao's mother makes Rouge look like a halfassed pussy and held Nanao in her womb from over a century or Kubo screwed up.

Don't Shinigami age a lot slower?

It's impossible to determine how much slower they age, of course.

MetaMario

So the flashback really doesn't touch on the similarity/relationship between Nanao and Lisa? That's very disappointing.

…I will admit the very last page with Nanao releasing her sword is pretty damn cool, but this chapter....

@Daz:

(how do you hide a physical Zanpak inside the spirit-version of another zanpak?).

Zanpakutouception?

Daz

@TitanG545:

I am not really getting the incest vibe because I only read the MS translation. Especially based off the fact she always dodges his advances and seems to keep everything professional with him.

Its entirely possible that I'm looking at something that isn't there based on skeevy translations, and overestimating the amount of Shunsui-Nanao flirting. Its just how the carefree male boss/stuck up hot female secretary dynamic usually goes, and Yamamoto called Shunsui a womanizer.

http://www.mangareader.net/bleach/102/17

Creepy shit or affectionate uncle? You decide.

Besides, can anyone tell me what Nanao is doing here? Rummaging for her non-existent sword?

.access timeco.

@Razh:

Don't Shinigami age a lot slower?

It's impossible to determine how much slower they age, of course.

The problem is not Shunsui's aging, but Nanao being a kid in TBtP.
Unless we are to assume that Shunsui went from a kid (or teenager, whatever he looks in the first page of this week's chapter) to an adult, then a hundred years more passed by, and Nanao remained a kid after all that time - and then suddenly went grew into the woman she currently is in the following 100 years.

The only way this can be solved is if Shunsui's brother is not Nanao's father. If her father is someone else (maybe Shunsui himself), then it's perfectly fine that she was born much later.

Big_Bad_Lith

I still think that making Shinigami have an actual birth, life, death, and civilization is the stupidest thing in Bleach. They're dead! Why can't they just be an assortment of spirits?

.access timeco.

I am pretty sure that somewhere long ago it was said only noble families could do that, it would be something exclusive to the noble spirits. The others were just dead people who went to SS and formed families with each other.

But I wouldn't ever be able to find the source of this information…

LordPerucho

Sorry but this is 100% bullshit, this is more bullshit than Erza powerups, this is if current Nami becoming strong enough to defeat a BB pirate.

Wasnt Nanao implied to be a genius in Kidou? And somehow she is gonna curbstomp an Elite SR?

At least with Nemu made sense because lolscience was always a thing in Bleach.

Whats next, Hinamori taking out Gerald?

Razh

I'd be happy if this vice-captain to the rescue trend was done with after this fight.

LightningAce

@LordPerucho:

Sorry but this is 100% bullshit, this is more bullshit than Erza powerups, this is if current Nami becoming strong enough to defeat a BB pirate.

Wasnt Nanao implied to be a genius in Kidou? And somehow she is gonna curbstomp an Elite SR?

At least with Nemu made sense because lolscience was always a thing in Bleach.

Whats next, Hinamori taking out Gerald?

Its been explained, its this magical not-a-sword that couldn't cut butter but can somehow kill holy beings…..

If this were more realistic, this idiot Quincy would have killed these shinigami already instead of wasting his time constantly trash talking....

This guy at the start looked like someone that just gets the job done.....
And now in his ultimate form, about to be taken down by Kubo....

LordPerucho

Even Mashima could use that concept better, tbh.

Daz

@LightningAce:

This guy at the start looked like someone that just gets the job done…..
And now in his ultimate form, about to be taken down by Kubo....

Now now, when we first saw the Stoic Quincy Sniper-man, I'm sure we all thought "the logical progression of this character is into into and Arceus-centaur with an UFO-owl head and emmental wings who keeps talking about SSSSIIIINNNNNSSSS"

MetaMario

@LightningAce:

If this were more realistic, this idiot Quincy would have killed these shinigami already instead of wasting his time constantly trash talking…..

90% of Bleach characters do this.

Halfmetal-lich

I liked this chapter, good to see Nanao getting some backstory.

LightningAce

@Daz:

Now now, when we first saw the Stoic Quincy Sniper-man, I'm sure we all thought "the logical progression of this character is into into and Arceus-centaur with an UFO-owl head and emmental wings who keeps talking about SSSSIIIINNNNNSSSS"

The siiiiiins are drying my eyes…..
i'm sure ther eis a good meme in there ...

King Cannon

You know, I said I was scared about what Kubo has in story for Gerald and Askin, but at the same time I also can't wait for it.

Domingo

Love it how Kubo is trying to over-complicate his story by giving these shinigamis another deities to worship in form of Shinto religion. That is fine by me, but NOT after shinigamis trying to be everything and the fucking center of everything in the Bleachverse, even overlapping the roles of their supposed gods.

Daz

I'm not very knowledgeable on Shinto, so I wonder If anyone can help me understand why theres priests to a religion in the afterlife? I'm sure it makes perfect sense if one knows the culture, but to me it came across like Heaven having a clan of active, catholic priests. Just weird.

MetaMario

@Domingo:

Love it how Kubo is trying to over-complicate his story by giving these shinigamis another deities to worship in form of Shinto religion. That is fine by me, but NOT after shinigamis trying to be everything and the fucking center of everything in the Bleachverse, even overlapping the roles of their supposed gods.

Komamura's wolf clan made things complicated as well.

…Oh that's right, he turned into a regular wolf and now he can't do crap for the rest of the series. What a way to go out.

King Cannon

What happened to Komamura anyway? It's been 120 chapters since he last appeared, IIRC.

Is Iba still carrying him or something?

MetaMario

And I guess Shunsui gave Nanao's sword back for this photo op:
[hide]

It's perpendicular to Renji's sword.

EDIT: wtf Nemu has a zanpakutou too?
[/hide]

LightningAce

@Daz:

I'm not very knowledgeable on Shinto, so I wonder If anyone can help me understand why theres priests to a religion in the afterlife? I'm sure it makes perfect sense if one knows the culture, but to me it came across like Heaven having a clan of active, catholic priests. Just weird.

They have their own Gods/spirits etc in that place.

Like the case of the shrine of the right arm of the Soul King, which was considered a deity in its own right…

Horizon

@Domingo:

Love it how Kubo is trying to over-complicate his story by giving these shinigamis another deities to worship in form of Shinto religion. That is fine by me, but NOT after shinigamis trying to be everything and the fucking center of everything in the Bleachverse, even overlapping the roles of their supposed gods.

Didn't the fat guy w/ the pink hair say they didn't believe in gods?

Domingo

@Daz:

I'm not very knowledgeable on Shinto, so I wonder If anyone can help me understand why theres priests to a religion in the afterlife? I'm sure it makes perfect sense if one knows the culture, but to me it came across like Heaven having a clan of active, catholic priests. Just weird.

Technically, shrine and its priests are meant for the living people to learn what comes after death and what best ways to prepare for it because when people die, they're cut off from worldly matters and can't go back to redo things. Apparently, that doesn't apply to Bleachverse.

Well, in this case it seems to be treated more like a culture than anything. Building shrine to pray in the afterlife should do no good because it's already too late for that, but maybe it does make them feel better somehow? Soul Society is no "Heaven" after all. It's just another plane of existence to "live" in after living world, only a couple thousand times shittier.

In short, all of that is hardly elaborate excuse for Nanao to wield a plot sword and abandon the concept of Anti-Quinzi Kidou completely.

Outerspec

I wonder if the men who got mixed up with the Ise clan knew about the curse and still went along and married the women anyway. Or did the Ise clan women keep the curse a secret and knowingly sealed the fate of the men they married without giving them all the information. But surely the men had to know. They had to know when every single husband to an Ise clan member died soon after marriage and its been happening for centuries. That's suspicious as hell and it's hard to keep that a secret. So yeah, they knew.

Which brings me to my conclusion that the Ise clan women were/are the beautiful Sirens from Greek mythology.

Daz

@Domingo:

Technically, shrine and its priests are meant for the living people to learn what comes after death and what best ways to prepare for it because when people die, they're cut off from worldly matters and can't go back to redo things. Apparently, that doesn't apply to Bleachverse.

Well, in this case it seems to be treated more like a culture than anything. Building shrine to pray in the afterlife should do no good because it's already too late for that, but maybe it does make them feel better somehow? Soul Society is no "Heaven" after all. It's just another plane of existence to "live" in after living world, only a couple thousand times shittier.

But Bleach features reincarnation, so in SS they know that theres nothing beyond their plane besides a return to earth, so why on earth would SS feature a real-world religion which is about preparing for the afterlife and blaaaaaaaaaargh SS culture is so fucked
I think I'll just roll with LightningAces idea that theres just shrines to the worship of Soul Kings various appendages

Zar

Well then, that made little to no sense.

At least seeing Nanao finally get some action was nice.

King Cannon

It's amusing to think that every body part of the Soul King could have its own religion.

Domingo

Whichever rolls smoother for you I guess, rofl. Over-analyzing what Kubo haphazardly writes will make you doubt your own sanity. Better take things as they are, call them bullshit and move on.

@Horizon:

Didn't the fat guy w/ the pink hair say they didn't believe in gods?

Who are we talking about here, though?

@King:

It's amusing to think that every body part of the Soul King could have its own religion.

Ironically, Pernida the Lefty itself converted to Quinzi religion.

Kaze

I'm so glad I don't read this shit anymore.

Horizon

@Domingo:

Who are we talking about here, though?

! I don't know if Kubo forgot about this or what.

kouch_lee

This should rank among the worst, most random, most uneffective, least thought out, least emotional backstories in the history of manga. And the icing on the cake is the absurdly tacked on "oh, and btw, this clan were priests and are perfect to kill deities! What are the fucking odds, huh?".

Honestly, at this point, owl centaur with UFO head is a touch of genius and something I absolutely embrace compared to how stunningly atrocious Kubo is with anything remotely related to story telling.

Razh

I have to admit something. That moment when Nanao jumped out of Owl's beak-shadow… I thought it was some dude kicking it in the head.

I guess after seeing that UFO head, my mind couldn't be surprised by any possibility any more.

.access timeco.

@kouch_lee:

This should rank among the worst, most random, most uneffective, least thought out, least emotional backstories in the history of manga. And the icing on the cake is the absurdly tacked on "oh, and btw, this clan were priests and are perfect to kill deities! What are the fucking odds, huh?".

Honestly, at this point, owl centaur with UFO head is a touch of genius and something I absolutely embrace compared to how stunningly atrocious Kubo is with anything remotely related to story telling.

The clan being priests is not really random. You see, the "Ise" from the family name is written exactly as the Ise from the Ise Grand Shrine (伊勢), a shinto temple in Japan where the Yata no Kagami (one of the three national treasures) is supposedly kept and probably the most relevant shinto shrine.
So her family being a shinto priest clan should actually be quite obvious if anyone ever cared to theorize about Nanao origins… we just never did. I wonder if the japanese readers were expecting this outcome as soon as Lille started with his god complex.

HeartOfDarkness

Ok i don't take Bleach chapters seriously but what the fuck did i just read? Even with Mangapanda's retarded and incomprehensible translation, i could at least decently understand what went on most of the time but this was such an incomprehensible cluster-fuck.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@kouch_lee:

This should rank among the worst, most random, most uneffective, least thought out, least emotional backstories in the history of manga. And the icing on the cake is the absurdly tacked on "oh, and btw, this clan were priests and are perfect to kill deities! What are the fucking odds, huh?".

Quoted for truth.

King Cannon

This post is deleted!

King Cannon

@.access:

The clan being priests is not really random. You see, the "Ise" from the family name is written exactly as the Ise from the Ise Grand Shrine (伊勢), a shinto temple in Japan where the Yata no Kagami (one of the three national treasures) is supposedly kept and probably the most relevant shinto shrine.
So her family being a shinto priest clan should actually be quite obvious if anyone ever cared to theorize about Nanao origins… we just never did. I wonder if the japanese readers were expecting this outcome as soon as Lille started with his god complex.

It still ends up being a Deus Ex Machina thanks to it being so abrupt.

And how exactly is being a Shinto priest suddenly mean that you are a God Slayer?

.access timeco.

Not a slayer, but at least a god… handler? I mean, they are supposed to invite kamis into objects and those things. All symbolic, but in manga it is always turned into summoning spirits and sealing them and etc, etc.

But I agree it is a very contrived coincidence.

Xanegoh

@Horizon:

! http://i66.tinypic.com/eiqqz5.jpg I don't know if Kubo forgot about this or what.

Kubo did. Or else the soul king wouldn't exist.
But this actually reminds me of an idea I had a few weeks ago: what if the shinigami and hollows were the source of myths and legends in the living world in Bleachverse. Like the story of Susano'o slaying the Yamato No Orochi is really just a shinigami killing a hollow.

BloodPact725

@HeartOfDarkness:

Ok i don't take Bleach chapters seriously but what the fuck did i just read? Even with Mangapanda's retarded and incomprehensible translation, i could at least decently understand what went on most of the time but this was such an incomprehensible cluster-fuck.

Right here with you. You would think a backstory would lend credence to Nanao's character but Kubo just went messed it up big time. And Kubo seems to love using family ties in the series. Everybody and their mother has a sibling who has died and somehow were connected in some way shape or form. Took one of my favorite characters and turned her character development into an epic fail. Oh the woes of reading Bleach.

.access timeco.

@Xanegoh:

Kubo did. Or else the soul king wouldn't exist.

Well, the soul king is not a god, he is… well... a king!
And while some Rukongai citizens worship his limbs as gods (?), that doesn't mean the Shinigami do the same. Mayuri and his troupe clearly didn't saw Pernida as a god.

It's weird to see myself being the one trying to show that Bleach makes some sense, I usually am on the other end, but you guys are really stretching it.

TitanG545

@Daz:

Its entirely possible that I'm looking at something that isn't there based on skeevy translations, and overestimating the amount of Shunsui-Nanao flirting. Its just how the carefree male boss/stuck up hot female secretary dynamic usually goes, and Yamamoto called Shunsui a womanizer.

http://www.mangareader.net/bleach/102/17

Creepy shit or affectionate uncle? You decide.

Besides, can anyone tell me what Nanao is doing here? Rummaging for her non-existent sword?

Why would you reference that chapter, it only reminded me how good Bleach was back in the day.
@LightningAce:

This guy at the start looked like someone that just gets the job done…..
And now in his ultimate form, about to be taken down by Kubo....

I know he was all about business in his regular form, one shot one kill. Now he is doing the usual villain talk you to death.

Xanegoh

@.access:

Well, the soul king is not a god, he is… well... a king!
And while some Rukongai citizens worship his limbs as gods (?), that doesn't mean the Shinigami do the same. Mayuri and his troupe clearly didn't saw Pernida as a god.

It's weird to see myself being the one trying to show that Bleach makes some sense, I usually am on the other end, but you guys are really stretching it.

Yeah, but remember most shinigami started out as rukongai citizens. Why would they have a god-slaying weapon if they didn't believe in such things? Now granted, we have no fucking idea what the soul king is.

King Cannon

@.access:

Well, the soul king is not a god, he is… well... a king!

Aren't the Shinigami supposed to be Gods of Death too?

I mean, Hachi says that the only Kami/Gami that there is them, the Shiningami.

So… would that mean Nanao's sword would work on the Shinigami?

MetaMario

@King:

Aren't the Shinigami supposed to be Gods of Death too?

Not in the literal sense. English dub/manga release uses "Soul Reaper" and IIRC Kubo said that matches more to the world he created.

Domingo

Apparently, the term "Shinigami" is just a title that some gods share (Izanami and Enma/Yama for example), not separate being. It would only makes sense if term "Soul Reaper" fits better since the overall concept is closer to western Grim Reaper, only with Japanese-flavor.

I recall that Royal Guards are the closest things to be referred as deities in Bleachverse, but it didn't even require Godslayer weapons to kill them.

Razh

No matter how much you discuss, you won't get an answer, because Kubo inserts stuff that he feels are cool or could provide an explanation without planning for it for too long. Or he does plan it long ahead, but can't bother to make it fit into the mess he made of the continuity.

My signature says it all, really.

Domingo

Said bottle of bleach is now dry and empty, though. There's nothing left in it except air, dust and vague smell of poisonous substance.

And Kubo keeps squeezing it like nobody's business.

Xanegoh

@Domingo:

Apparently, the term "Shinigami" is just a title that some gods share (Izanami and Enma/Yama for example), not separate being. It would only makes sense if term "Soul Reaper" fits better since the overall concept is closer to western Grim Reaper, only with Japanese-flavor.

I recall that Royal Guards are the closest things to be referred as deities in Bleachverse, but it didn't even require Godslayer weapons to kill them.

Then my suggestion of shinigami and hollows being the source of myths and legends in the living world would make even more sense.