It was already questionable that a 17 year old boy (without training or haki at that time) was able to defeat a shichibukai like Crocodile.
So defeating a yonkou with 19 might seem a bit far fetched, but it´s for the sake of the story.
Don´t think Oda will go away from his target group (young boys) and make Luffy any older for competing seriously with the big guys.
It´s anyways a shonen jump-thing that protagonists are able to defeat their opponents at a young age.
The Lev Ely Discussion Thread
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Where does Reverie take place? Do we know? Was it Mariejois. I am just thinking that the reverie is like impel down in that it is a really good way to bring back a lot of returning characters, like Vivi and wapol, and give them an actual reason for why they would be here during the final stages of the series.
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It happens in Mariejois. And yes, it is a gathering of nobles (aligned with the World Government).
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That's a good point; it's just that from my perspective, it will look ridiculous if Luffy can beat a Yonko after only 2 years of serious training, (excluding any "training/evolving" they have during the actual arcs because that applies to the other characters as well, after all, they're all having their own adventures/missions/etc.)
I feel like they should have something that pushes them forward in a significant way, whether it's a timeskip or anything else, so beating an emperor doesn't seem so far-fetched.Like Quichote said, it was pretty ridiculous that Luffy was able to beat guys like Croc, Moria and Lucci with no intense training and essentially only his experiences in East Blue and Paradise to power him up.
So him being able to push himself to the point of beating a Yonko at the age of 19 isn't that crazy to me.
Especially considering that Luffy has proven himself to be essentially a battle genius.
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And considering that he has the tools to match Kaidoh, Big Mom seems to be in decadence, and Blackbeard is the last one.
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Like Quichote said, it was pretty ridiculous that Luffy was able to beat guys like Croc, Moria and Lucci with no intense training and essentially only his experiences in East Blue and Paradise to power him up.
So him being able to push himself to the point of beating a Yonko at the age of 19 isn't that crazy to me.
Especially considering that Luffy has proven himself to be essentially a battle genius.
True, but I like to consider the Yonko on a different scale than Croc, Moria and so on. Those guys were strong sure, but from a story standpoint, the Yonko are the strongest pirates in the world, defeating one of those is not the same as beating a Shichibukai or a member of an assassin(?) organization. These 4 are people who fought and evolved enough to be at the top of the world.
Beating one of these without long years of training and experience simply doesn't make sense story-wise, in my mind I mean.
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Beating one of these without long years of training and experience simply doesn't make sense story-wise, in my mind I mean.
He could barely beat Doflamingo on his own. In fact he came close to dying once or twice.
Realistically, Luffy's fight with the Yonko is going to have to be a big group effort. And I mean, like.. EVERY single Strawhat (plus allies) pitching in somehow. Similar to Dressrosa. But if that's the case, we run the risk of arc fatigue, where it'll get boring cause it's too similar. Hell, Dressrosa alone was tiring and too similar to previous arcs as is. But, on the other hand, if Luffy is able to easily defeat a Yonko one-on-one, we run the risk of people bitching about stuff being too easy, as was the case back in Fishman Island.
Either way, Oda is walking a very precarious line here and I think he's written himself into a lot of corners with all his trope-y shonen power level crap.
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Luffy has trained for 12 years. While I'd like that Oda would finaly give Luffy an adult look (compare with dragon ball on how toriyama managed to introduce grown up goku), the Reverie has the world going to shit this year. This "story" year, that could last as long as 20 years.
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Luffy has trained for 12 years. While I'd like that Oda would finaly give Luffy an adult look (compare with dragon ball on how toriyama managed to introduce grown up goku), the Reverie has the world going to shit this year. This "story" year, that could last as long as 20 years.
Does Gear 4 Luffy counts?
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@Miss:
He could barely beat Doflamingo on his own. In fact he came close to dying once or twice.
Realistically, Luffy's fight with the Yonko is going to have to be a big group effort. And I mean, like.. EVERY single Strawhat (plus allies) pitching in somehow. Similar to Dressrosa. But if that's the case, we run the risk of arc fatigue, where it'll get boring cause it's too similar. Hell, Dressrosa alone was tiring and too similar to previous arcs as is. But, on the other hand, if Luffy is able to easily defeat a Yonko one-on-one, we run the risk of people bitching about stuff being too easy, as was the case back in Fishman Island.
Either way, Oda is walking a very precarious line here and I think he's written himself into a lot of corners with all his trope-y shonen power level crap.
Very good point, but in all honesty, if Luffy has to beat a Yonko any time soon, I wouldn't mind that he starts off by beating one in a group effort, than the next one maybe only the monster trio, and finally he would defeat one on his own. But even in this case, I'd still argue that one timeskip would be ideal for it to make more sense.
Luffy has trained for 12 years. While I'd like that Oda would finaly give Luffy an adult look (compare with dragon ball on how toriyama managed to introduce grown up goku), the Reverie has the world going to shit this year. This "story" year, that could last as long as 20 years.
Wouldn't mind seeing Luffy grown up, as long as he kept on being his fun self.
@bold: There's no reason why the Reverie cannot happen without a Yonko being defeated. It will happen regardless, right? -
I don't think the defeat of a Yonko is a thing that is discussed in these Reveries.
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I don't think the defeat of a Yonko is a thing that is discussed in these Reveries.
How they can not discuss one of the most important geopolitical shifts in the world? Remember the emperors are practically nation leaders, if North Korea or the whole Isis suddenly got destroyed, not only it would get talked in the UN, special meetings would happen.
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How they can not discuss one of the most important geopolitical shifts in the world? Remember the emperors are practically nation leaders, if North Korea or the whole Isis suddenly got destroyed, not only it would get talked in the UN, special meetings would happen.
Its not like the kings have any power to deal with a new pirate force that takes place after the defeat of an emperor. If there is something in their power to change is how about the WG does his policy against pirate threats like ths Shichibukai System. Its not like the Revolutionaries which threats directly at their countries and only Fishman Island is know to be in protection of a Yonko because of his particular situation of being a pirate tourist point. Its safe to say that most of the kingdoms that participate in the Reverie are either powerful or have strong marine protection.
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So as they feel powerless to change it, they won't talk about it? That's laughable. Besides this is the first reverie after Blackbeard's ascent, and that is directly related to the shichibukai, and whitebeard.
Why do you think that the defeat of a rogue country that might lead to the rise of a new and stronger one, won't be talked about in a meeting of world leaders? A fresh age of piracy affects everyone.
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I am a bit not clear with how the Reverie works. Is it going to be just a meeting of world leaders who gather together to solve ALL the world problems or is it more like a discussion to identify potential threats which could affect THEIR OWN kingdoms and to keep only the network of nations under it safe. It might just be like a club for rich kids who sit and discuss if somebody is going to mess with them but won't bother if someone who isn't part of their club gets thrashed but just note it down as a potential threat and take cautionary actions accordingly.
So basically if a Shichibukai/Yonkou gets defeated unless until the defeat directly affects any of the kingdoms present in the Reverie, they might not discuss about it perhaps? Yes of course for the WG that's a big deal and that's why perhaps the Gorousei/Marines might discuss about it but probably not a Reverie worthy discussion? If they really were concerned about the world as a whole, they would have scheduled the meeting every year to discuss about the whole pirate problem plaguing the entire world for ages now
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I think the Reverie will work this way:
A) The leaders will be the world nobles. More specifically the most senior descendent member of each clan that formed the WG. They will have the final say about any issues that come up.
B) Some of the countries' leaders will be affiliated with Dragon, and will report back to him.
C) There will be a split among the leaders when they start talking about the SH's. The groups that will be allied with the SH's are:- Alabasta
- Drum(providing that Dalton is still recognized as the King)
- Dressrosa
- Fishman Island(although the prejudice of the Fishmen/Merpeople by the World Nobles especially probably doesn't make them a recognizable country)
The countries/ groups against the SH's
- the World Nobles(unfortunately they will play the biggest role IMO in the Reverie)
- Drum(if Wapol returns to the throne)
- Goa Kingdom
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I do think one thing we have to consider regarding Luffy's strength is that, though he was in training for 2 years, it was specifically with the Roger Pirates' first mate - Dark Prince Raleigh. Training under Raleigh for 2 years does count for something.
Though yeah, Yonko should still be very difficult, and preferably - at least at first - impossible for him to one on one. I'd love a group effort like with Oars, though.
Also, imo, not all shichibukai are equal. I would have to wager that Doflamingo and Mihawk were the two strongest of the original warlords, then MAYBE Jimbei. It's pretty clear Croc wasn't on Doffy's level when Luffy fought him, and heck, Doffy probably got weaker over the timeskip from doin' a whole lot of nothing. So, it's not like Luffy just defeated any warlord, he defeated one of the top warlords. That puts him a little closer to the Yonko than defeating Croc did. But, based on Doffy's fear of Kaido, still nowhere close :P
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Reverie:
I think that it's presided by the Elders, not the world Nobles, the world nobles probably have heftier votes, probably more than the rest of the world combined, but they should be able to be overruled by the elders.
The fishman are already in, the whole issue with the paper and Otohime managing to get the douches to sing it (Proving that either she's the best negociator ever, she managed to contact the elders, or that there are non douche nobles beyond Doffy's father, timeline of Doffy's youth is 40 years ago, the Otohime negociation was something like 10 years ago) If they face any issue it should be resolved fast and quick.
Water 7 is also aligned with the strawhats, but we don't know how does it works as a member country/city maybe the 4 islands (the sea train network) are part of a kingdom, maybe Iceburg is a world leader from a democratic City.
They talk about threats to the stability of the world, and rights of it's citizens, is the only two things that we know to be disscused, per Dragon warning and the insistence of Otohime getting in. They must talk about global things, if not then what's the point of getting together all world leaders?
What are they going to talk about? Local issues that they can solve individualy? "Oh there's this bandit named higuma, he's going to be trouble in about 5-7 years"
Trade regulations, international colaboration projects? For sure, but not in the incredibly important reverie that we are going to see.The agenda is most likely going to be:
Rights of non human races
Status of the Shichibukai system
The Revolutionary menace
The Blackbeard MenaceAll things that tie back to the strawhats.
Possible things that might crop up later
The status of the marine civil rights record (they had done bad things, but they haven't nuked civilian islands in the past 4 years, and while irresponsible, Fujitora's actions are covered in the Shichibukai part) -
Yonkou rarely seem to venture out of the New World if ever. They may rule the New World completely but that's one half of the smallest sea in the world. Even if the countries within have a grievance against Blackbeard there's no reason for the rest of the world to care or consider it a major problem since it's been that way for so long. Does it matter if there's a regime change in a small isolated chaotic part of the world? Seems like same shit different day type stuff. The WG might have major concerns and so the Marines will as well but the rest of the planet shouldn't really care.
I think the Shichibukai who move and operate in all the oceans under protection of the WG will be the main focus. They seem to be well ware of the threat Dragon posses by now so if he's mentioned I don't expect it to be anything new other than, "yeah he's still our #1 bad guy"
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Someone is going to mention Blackbeard, and as Dressrosa proves, there are WG aligned nations in the new world.
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I have always had in mind that the first yonko, whoever it is, would be taken down with a team effort - not of the monster trio, but a combine effort of the worst generation. But i just never knew how it could come to pass until the chapter suicide came out.
I simply believe that Kaido might be taken down by Luffy, Kidd, Law, Drake (i think he might switch sides), Apoo, Hawkins and probably one more from the worst gen. Now what would be the best way of giving panel time to luffy's closest rivals, amongst luffy, than having all of them together against a common enemy.
I think this may be a great way of showing their strength. Somehow i just think that's how it may fall together. Just somehow i see LL alliance meeting KAH's to defeat Kaido. It is like having 6/7 copies of Doflamingo (or Kuma) vs Kaido = i think DD would win that with great difficulty. So just imagine 6/7 Worst Gen Vs Kaido. It took a long time but i could see my thoughts i had long ago coming to light.
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Like Quichote said, it was pretty ridiculous that Luffy was able to beat guys like Croc, Moria and Lucci with no intense training and essentially only his experiences in East Blue and Paradise to power him up.
So him being able to push himself to the point of beating a Yonko at the age of 19 isn't that crazy to me.
Especially considering that Luffy has proven himself to be essentially a battle genius.
I think you don't understand who the Yonkous exactly are.
Not even admirals wanna fight against them.
So if Luffy almost looses against an almost admiral lvl opponent and flees when he sees an Admiral …So to me it'd CRAZY if Luffy could beat a Yonkou now.
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@MJR.:
I think you don't understand who the Yonkous exactly are.
Not even admirals wanna fight against them.
So if Luffy almost looses against an almost admiral lvl opponent and flees when he sees an Admiral …So to me it'd CRAZY if Luffy could beat a Yonkou now.
You mean fleeing from Fujitora? Luffy could be running cause he just has no reason to fight Fujitora. Running from marines is what they do.
Granted, that doesn't mean he could fight Fuji, but running doesn't mean he couldn't.
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Yonkou rarely seem to venture out of the New World if ever. They may rule the New World completely but that's one half of the smallest sea in the world. Even if the countries within have a grievance against Blackbeard there's no reason for the rest of the world to care or consider it a major problem since it's been that way for so long. Does it matter if there's a regime change in a small isolated chaotic part of the world? Seems like same shit different day type stuff. The WG might have major concerns and so the Marines will as well but the rest of the planet shouldn't really care.
No, "the new world" is half the world, its everything on one side of the red line, which extends around the globe. Not just "half of the smallest sea" (ANd the four blues are all about equal anyway… East blue is the weakest)
And... someone being the undisputed ruler of an area that's shown a desire for expansion and conquest isnt a bad thing that gets talked about?
Nazi Germany was just one country, nowhere near North America... we still got into WW2 eeventually to stop Nazis from taking over the world.
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No, "the new world" is half the world, its everything on one side of the red line, which extends around the globe. Not just "half of the smallest sea" (ANd the four blues are all about equal anyway… East blue is the weakest)
No. The Grand Line and the New World are isolated from the other seas by the Calm Belt. Their surface area is much smaller than North, West, East, or South Blue.
If this map is wrong you'll be blowing my mind Robby.
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I can't read japanese, so I'll take your word on it. Far as I understood it, the grand line is still the grand line. The new world is that half of the hemisphere. I might be wrong about that, fine, but that's the impression I've gotten from the series itself.
Regardless, your main point makes no sense.
Yes, the grand line is where all the crazy crap happens and where all the powerhouses hang out. But the higher ups can leave it and get back in all the time, as we've seen with Mihawk and the Marines… presumably the yonkou are able to cross that line at will as well, especially with vivre cards and permanent log poses.
The marines concentrate most heavily on the grandline because thats where all the big shots go.
Big bads in expanding territory bent on destruction are everyone's problem. Yonkou are world leaders that singlehandedly require the recruitment of pirates to make the warlord system in the first place, who can terrorize or destroy entire nations or armadas at will. You cant just ignore them indefinitely because they aren't near you at the moment.
So what Roger was pirate king but he only reached Raftel which is just one island so who cares? WHy bother giving anyone bounties then anyway if they don't care about "that one little strip of area"? Hey, Arlong just terrorized one tiny island in the east blue, who cares about that?
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I can't read japanese, so I'll take your word on it. Far as I understood it, the grand line is still the grand line. The new world is that half of the hemisphere. I might be wrong about that, fine, but that's the impression I've gotten from the series itself.
Regardless, your main point makes no sense.
Yes, the grand line is where all the crazy crap happens and where all the powerhouses hang out. But the higher ups can leave it and get back in all the time, as we've seen with Mihawk and the Marines… presumably the yonkou are able to cross that line at will as well, especially with vivre cards and permanent log poses.
The marines concentrate most heavily on the grandline because thats where all the big shots go.
Big bads in expanding territory bent on destruction are everyone's problem. Yonkou are world leaders that singlehandedly require the recruitment of pirates to make the warlord system in the first place, who can terrorize or destroy entire nations or armadas at will. You cant just ignore them indefinitely because they aren't near you at the moment.
So what Roger was pirate king but he only reached Raftel which is just one island so who cares? WHy bother giving anyone bounties then anyway if they don't care about "that one little strip of area"? Hey, Arlong just terrorized one tiny island in the east blue, who cares about that?
I'm pretty sure it was mentioned in OP that the latter half of the Grand Line itself was also known as the New World (mentioned around TS). The map however is probably very outdated and an early concept, since it was also stated that the Grand Line becomes much more vast the 2nd half.
I've mentioned it already, but the GL and RL might actually be diagonal considering the four seas.
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Yes, the grand line is where all the crazy crap happens and where all the powerhouses hang out. But the higher ups can leave it and get back in all the time, as we've seen with Mihawk and the Marines… presumably the yonkou are able to cross that line at will as well, especially with vivre cards and permanent log poses.
Mihawk is a Shichibukai and just like BB and Boa can have access to marine ships which have sea stone hulls and can cross the calm belt. Besides that the only other way we know people can enter the Grandline/New World is through reverse mountain. I don't how know Krieg and Shanks made it back to the other side with their ships but I think the series has done a solid job of establishing the GL/NW as isolated areas. Stuff like not being able to reach the NW except through Mariejois/Fishman Island and all pirates having to start at the beginning of the GL.
The marines concentrate most heavily on the grandline because thats where all the big shots go.
Where most pirates go. Not just the big shots.
Big bads in expanding territory bent on destruction are everyone's problem. Yonkou are world leaders that singlehandedly require the recruitment of pirates to make the warlord system in the first place, who can terrorize or destroy entire nations or armadas at will. You cant just ignore them indefinitely because they aren't near you at the moment.
The Yonkou have never been shown to be world leaders. Extremely well known, yes. Powerful, yes. But that power has never been shown outside of the New World. We had 0 interaction with any Yonkou or Yonkou based force in the GL and the territory that BB is expanding into is WB's former territory. As far as we know, the Yonkou don't have ambitions outside the NW and their threat to the stability of the world is based more on their ability to take on the entirety of the Marines(something they rarely if ever do) rather than the threat that they might terrorize or destroy a nation or armada outside the NW.
They're not Dragon with the intent of toppling nations or even having the ambition of toppling nations. Unless you're a country in their immediate vicinity(the NW) I don't see why you would even consider them a threat or something worth mentioning. Even if you were within their range, they've been ruling the NW for quite some time and the WG/Marines clearly haven't been able to do much about it up to now. Why would nations outside the NW care about BB at this point. He's a Yonkou, it's done. If he's mentioned it will be merely a note of how the's the newest one. Kaido's declaration of the greatest war the world has ever seen is more likely to be a topic of discussion than BB imo.
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The Yonkou have never been shown to be world leaders. Extremely well known, yes. Powerful, yes. But that power has never been shown outside of the New World. We had 0 interaction with any Yonkou or Yonkou based force in the GL and the territory that BB is expanding into is WB's former territory. As far as we know, the Yonkou don't have ambitions outside the NW and their threat to the stability of the world is based more on their ability to take on the entirety of the Marines(something they rarely if ever do) rather than the threat that they might terrorize or destroy a nation or armada outside the NW.
They're not Dragon with the intent of toppling nations or even having the ambition of toppling nations. Unless you're a country in their immediate vicinity(the NW) I don't see why you would even consider them a threat or something worth mentioning. Even if you were within their range, they've been ruling the NW for quite some time and the WG/Marines clearly haven't been able to do much about it up to now. Why would nations outside the NW care about BB at this point. He's a Yonkou, it's done. If he's mentioned it will be merely a note of how the's the newest one. Kaido's declaration of the greatest war the world has ever seen is more likely to be a topic of discussion than BB imo.
The emperors are warlords who conquer and control territories with their military might, or demand tribute from nearby countries. That's more political power and military power than any non-celestial dragon world leader we've seen.
Blackbeard has done more in 2 years that most of the emperors in the lifetime of the leaders of the Reverie, he declared war on "peace", and avoided rules of nature by eating 2 devil fruits, is going actively after raftel, contrary to the others who wanted to eat/havefamily/die/party, that HAS to trigger some alarms.
Do you remember the scenes of Whitebeard's death, were people all around the world were mourning and celebrating? Not just in the new world that were just mourning.
That's in an In-story reasoning, in a meta reasoning, how Oda will miss the oportunity to sheed light in the dealings and workings of Blackbeard's territory, specialy if the Reverie happens after the defeat of Kaido/Big Mom.
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Mihawk is a Shichibukai and just like BB and Boa can have access to marine ships which have sea stone hulls and can cross the calm belt. Besides that the only other way we know people can enter the Grandline/New World is through reverse mountain. I don't how know Krieg and Shanks made it back to the other side with their ships but I think the series has done a solid job of establishing the GL/NW as isolated areas. Stuff like not being able to reach the NW except through Mariejois/Fishman Island and all pirates having to start at the beginning of the GL.,
Mihawk has been shown to get around on his little dinky raft thing, and Hancock has a ship pulled by serpents. They may or may not have seastone bottoms, but the fact is they're able to cross when they want to. Is it really so improbably that the yonkou haven't taken a ship and comandeered that tech for themselves? For at least their main ships? … or conversely, just been bad ass enough they can destroy the sea kings in their way if attacked?
Where most pirates go. Not just the big shots.
Because of the one piece and Rogers legacy. But the small time pirates, such as Kuro, get "captured" in the blues, the likes of Krieg get destroyed by the line, Smoker caught miscreants at the entrance for who knows how long, and Arlong hid out in the weakling East Blue for over a decade. ANd thats just the shmucks we know because we met them in-story. We have to assume a ton of other small fry get eaten up on the way as well. Add in things like Hancock and Moria blocking certain areas almost entirely?
Only the tough important big shots survive to the second half, otherwise they wouldn't make such a big deal about the 100 million bounty supernovas. That's gotta be a rare thing if 11 of them (Plus bart, Cavendish, and Blackbeard) is consistently big news.
Also its to be understood that pre time-skip the Marines stayed out of the New World because they simply couldn't deal with it… post Whitebeard's death and Aikanu's leadership they've started focusing on it more heavily because... thats where the bad stuff is going down.
The Yonkou have never been shown to be world leaders.
Maxter already adressed this.
Just replace "Blackbeard" with "Hitler" and "New World" with "Germany" and it should be clear why he'd be at least a topic of discussion. Maybe not the only topic, and not something they want to prioritize at the moment, or even something they CAN deal with, but he's a mover and shaker and would at least come up. He'd at least get talked about, especially if other world shaking events are going on at the time… such as discovering ancient weapons or various yonkou falling. There's a balance of world powers that's being shaken. (And what if they don't take out yonkou, but end up adding a pirate king who has them as allies instead? Nightmare scenario for all)
Remember how freaked out they got by just Shanks going to talk to Whitebeard... or how things froze up at the war once another power showed up.
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@MJR.:
I think you don't understand who the Yonkous exactly are.
I'm well aware of who the Yonko are, thanks.
@MJR.:
Not even admirals wanna fight against them.
Yet we saw 3 admirals engage one of them at Marineford.
@MJR.:
So if Luffy almost looses against an almost admiral lvl opponent and flees when he sees an Admiral …
We have't seen Luffy fight an admiral post-timeskip, we don't know how they measure up.
@MJR.:
So to me it'd CRAZY if Luffy could beat a Yonkou now.
I didn't say Luffy could beat a Yonko right now.
I'm saying that when he beats one, strengthened by his adventures in The New World, it won't be crazy.
Strengthened by his adventures in The New World as opposed to strengthened by another timeskip as was suggested by another poster.
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Blackbeard has done more in 2 years that most of the emperors in the lifetime of the leaders of the Reverie, he declared war on "peace", and avoided rules of nature by eating 2 devil fruits, is going actively after raftel, contrary to the others who wanted to eat/havefamily/die/party, that HAS to trigger some alarms.
Do you remember the scenes of Whitebeard's death, were people all around the world were mourning and celebrating? Not just in the new world that were just mourning.
I think those alarms are mostly a concern for the Gorosei and the Marines. Not the majority of nations which will never see or encounter a Yonkou or be threatened by them. Also if WB won he would have defeated the entire military arm of the WG. That is cause for people all over the world to celebrate. We don't actually see people outside the NW mourning him. We see his territories, which are in the NW, come under attack.
Mihawk has been shown to get around on his little dinky raft thing, and Hancock has a ship pulled by serpents. They may or may not have seastone bottoms, but the fact is they're able to cross when they want to. Is it really so improbably that the yonkou haven't taken a ship and comandeered that tech for themselves? For at least their main ships? … or conversely, just been bad ass enough they can destroy the sea kings in their way if attacked?
Yes it is improbable because we've never seen them pushing their influence outside of the NW. Everything that's been said by every character in the story up until now has made a point that the Yonkou rule and operate only in the NW. Also Oda has taken a lot of time to set up the NW as an isolated area and the calm belt as an extremely effective natural barrier. Even if the Yonkou themselves could fight their way across it what about the rest of their ships and crews which is where their real power resides.
Because of the one piece and Rogers legacy. But the small time pirates, such as Kuro, get "captured" in the blues, the likes of Krieg get destroyed by the line, Smoker caught miscreants at the entrance for who knows how long, and Arlong hid out in the weakling East Blue for over a decade. ANd thats just the shmucks we know because we met them in-story. We have to assume a ton of other small fry get eaten up on the way as well. Add in things like Hancock and Moria blocking certain areas almost entirely?
Only the tough important big shots survive to the second half, otherwise they wouldn't make such a big deal about the 100 million bounty supernovas. That's gotta be a rare thing if 11 of them (Plus bart, Cavendish, and Blackbeard) is consistently big news.
Also its to be understood that pre time-skip the Marines stayed out of the New World because they simply couldn't deal with it… post Whitebeard's death and Aikanu's leadership they've started focusing on it more heavily because... thats where the bad stuff is going down.
The great pirate age is spurred by attaining One Piece. The news of it's existence first from Roger and again from WB is what moves pirates. Since the only way to reach OP is through the Grand Line it makes sense that any pirate that is after it, and from the reaction to Roger and WB's statements I assume that to be most active pirates, will go through the GL. The GL should be the area where most active pirates are operating. The Supernova are never stated to be the only pirates who made it to Saobody. They're just the top ones who have managed to gather bounties over 100 million along the way. The amount of men the Fake Strawhats were able to gather should be proof that tons of nameless pirates make it to the end of the GL and try to enter the NW. This is despite the Marines and even the Shichibukai who are supposed to be culling the pirate herds. Whether they survive the journey to the NW and how far they make it if they get there is a different story.
Just replace "Blackbeard" with "Hitler" and "New World" with "Germany" and it should be clear why he'd be at least a topic of discussion. Maybe not the only topic, and not something they want to prioritize at the moment, or even something they CAN deal with, but he's a mover and shaker and would at least come up. He'd at least get talked about, especially if other world shaking events are going on at the time… such as discovering ancient weapons or various yonkou falling. There's a balance of world powers that's being shaken. (And what if they don't take out yonkou, but end up adding a pirate king who has them as allies instead? Nightmare scenario for all)
Remember how freaked out they got by just Shanks going to talk to Whitebeard... or how things froze up at the war once another power showed up.
BB is nothing like Hitler. He has never shown or displayed any desire to take over the world. His plot is taking him to One Piece. What that is and what he wants to do there besides become Pirate King is unknown. The NW is nothing like a unified battle ready Germany. It's an active constant warzone divided up by the Yonkou who are fighting with the Marines, each other, and random pirates like Kidd who just don't respect their authority. I don't think this is a good comparison.
The Yonkou more or less keep each other from becoming too powerful because of their constant fighting. WB makes a move on the Marines, Kaido makes a move on WB, Shanks makes a move on Kaido. If they were to team up, which is why I think the Gorosei were worried about Shanks meeting with WB, they could easily stomp the Marines but that has never happened before and they don't show any signs of ever working together.
Like I said before if BB gets mentioned it will only be in passing. A note that he exist. Unless something else major develops in the story directly involving him I don't see a conference of nations from around the world spending much time talking about the newest addition to the Yonkou. There's no meaningful discussion they can have about him. He's too far removed from most nations and too out of their control.
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What you are saying is that the next reverie, probably the only one we'll be seeing sans an epilogue, we won't talk about the endgame of the manga because the less relevant kings don't feel threatened by the final boss?
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What you are propossing is that these kings are both incredibly shortsighted "Hey, this madman got wepons of mass destruction, let's talk about the first grand line olympics! instead!" and counterproductive to the plot.
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Besides, your main argument is that "they will talk about the shichibukai". I wonder what of the current emperors is a former shichibukai.
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Very good point, but in all honesty, if Luffy has to beat a Yonko any time soon, I wouldn't mind that he starts off by beating one in a group effort, than the next one maybe only the monster trio, and finally he would defeat one on his own. But even in this case, I'd still argue that one timeskip would be ideal for it to make more sense.
There won't be a timeskip, though. Roger conquered the Grand Line in 3 years, and Luffy is set to surpass him, which means he only has a few months (2 years and around 4 months have already passed since the start of his journey).
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@Miss:
He could barely beat Doflamingo on his own. In fact he came close to dying once or twice.
Realistically, Luffy's fight with the Yonko is going to have to be a big group effort. And I mean, like.. EVERY single Strawhat (plus allies) pitching in somehow. Similar to Dressrosa. But if that's the case, we run the risk of arc fatigue, where it'll get boring cause it's too similar. Hell, Dressrosa alone was tiring and too similar to previous arcs as is. But, on the other hand, if Luffy is able to easily defeat a Yonko one-on-one, we run the risk of people bitching about stuff being too easy, as was the case back in Fishman Island.
Either way, Oda is walking a very precarious line here and I think he's written himself into a lot of corners with all his trope-y shonen power level crap.
Luffy still has an Awakening to go through.
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If the only reason why members of the reverie should talk about Blackbeard is because he's the endgame of a manga they know nothing about and a final adversary for a character most of them have no investment in then that's a dumb reason to me.
You're basing their topics of discussion on what you know and how you expect the story to proceed instead of basing it on what they know and how their world, as far as we know, operates.
If Oda wrote their discussion like that, based on information they don't have, it would be very poor writing.
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About the first yonkou going down thing, Oda doesn't seem to like team ups for Luffy. even now at Dressrosa, he made Law fight DD till he was almost defeated, then he started the serious fight with Luffy.
If Drake and law help him with Kaidou, I still see them taken down and end up a 1vs1, ofc they woud weaken Kaidou, same Law did now with gamma knife.
Like, if the reason why KAIDOU can't die is because someone used the ope ope no mi immortal operation on him and Law can undo the operation.
And way too many supernovas agains't the first yonkou is unlikely, there isn't such a big difference anymore. If all 11 supernovas would have to team up on 1 yonkou, that would just look bad. Does luffy need to get 11 times stronger or something to solo a yonkou?
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If the only reason why members of the reverie should talk about Blackbeard is because he's the endgame of a manga they know nothing about and a final adversary for a character most of them have no investment in then that's a dumb reason to me.
You're basing their topics of discussion on what you know and how you expect the story to proceed instead of basing it on what they know and how their world, as far as we know, operates.
If Oda wrote their discussion like that, based on information they don't have, it would be very poor writing.
They know that he betrayed the goverment, killed an emperor, ate a second devil fruit, has the devil fruit that represents "the evilest power" and "the power to destroy the world", has personaly attacked 2 kingdoms we KNOW will be in the reverie (dark drum and sakura), and any allied country of luffy will bring it up, and took the place of an emperor. That's enough reason to "be in their radar". Specialy because they haven't talked about him before.
I'm using the meta reasons because the 30+ "in world" reasons don't seem to phase you.
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The Reverie is going to become a big masacre. Blackbeard is going to put his hands in an ancient weapon and the kings will surrender or get masacred.
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They know that he betrayed the goverment, killed an emperor, ate a second devil fruit, has the devil fruit that represents "the evilest power" and "the power to destroy the world", has personaly attacked 2 kingdoms we KNOW will be in the reverie (dark drum and sakura), and any allied country of luffy will bring it up, and took the place of an emperor. That's enough reason to "be in their radar". Specialy because they haven't talked about him before.
I'm using the meta reasons because the 30+ "in world" reasons don't seem to phase you.
All that stuff he did as a nobody and then as a Shichibukai. If they want to argue about Shichibukai which they probably will then BB will certainly be brought up in that regard. His current status as a Yonkou will probably be brought up in reference to him being a former Shichibukai.
His status as a Yonkou and his activities as a Yonkou will not be nearly as important to the attendees of Reverie as how he became a Yonkou. BB is a symptom of the problems that will be discussed, not the problem itself, or special cause for alarm from the attendees. Currently his power is not seen to be any greater than the other Yonkou who all boast extreme reputations.
Your meta reasoning is flawed as I already said and your in the world reasons lead to a different discussion occurring than the one you're trying to push.
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@Miss:
What does this even mean?
Awakening his Devil's Fruit akin to ho Doflamingo did with his.
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@S.C.:
Awakening his Devil's Fruit akin to ho Doflamingo did with his.
Oooh yeah. I forgot this was a thing. The stupid haki power level stuff wasn't enough, now devil fruits get "awakened", too. Fun.
Well what would Luffy's "awakened" devil fruit consist of? Turning buildings into rubber?
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@Miss:
Oooh yeah. I forgot this was a thing. The stupid haki power level stuff wasn't enough, now devil fruits get "awakened", too. Fun.
Well what would Luffy's "awakened" devil fruit consist of? Turning buildings into rubber?
I'd imagine so. It would logically seem that Paramecias and Logias turn the environment into what their powers are while Zoans awaken their inner animal, akin to the Demon Guards.
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All that stuff he did as a nobody and then as a Shichibukai. If they want to argue about Shichibukai which they probably will then BB will certainly be brought up in that regard. His current status as a Yonkou will probably be brought up in reference to him being a former Shichibukai.
His status as a Yonkou and his activities as a Yonkou will not be nearly as important to the attendees of Reverie as how he became a Yonkou. BB is a symptom of the problems that will be discussed, not the problem itself, or special cause for alarm from the attendees. Currently his power is not seen to be any greater than the other Yonkou who all boast extreme reputations.
Your meta reasoning is flawed as I already said and your in the world reasons lead to a different discussion occurring than the one you're trying to push.
WHy are you so hell bent on the idea that the semi-defunct Warlords, many of which have been beaten or turned traitor in the last couple years, will be a huge only topic of discussion…. while the Emporers, who are doing the exact same things only on a bigger, scarier scale, that are getting the current brunt of Marine focus, won't be? (And hey, a former marine admiral has apparently teamed up with them. SO that's gotta be news too, right?)
These are people conquering territory, massively opposing the government and order, with huge potential to spread out and cause more damage and create fleets of their own, now that one of them is a more unknown quantity that hasn't settled into a comfort zone. Throw in supernovas mixing it up and creating news on a daily basis and trying to topple and shake up that old order?
Dresserossa is in the new world, but it apparently has a ton of political allies and influence... and it just got turned to rubble, and replaced its king literally overnight. That's a thing, you think it won't come up becase the island is day into the new world? Drum went through the same thing two years ago due thanks to Blackbeard.
Do I really have to bring up the Hitler example AGAIN? I use Hitler because he's the famous name, but you can put in any dictator/conqueror name you want. Ceaser, Napoleon, Sadaam Hussein, whatever.
"Hey, there's this guy conquering territory out there that's killing a lot of people. Eh who cares, he's England's problem. Just leave him alone, he couldn't possibly become a bigger problem as long as we bury our heads in the sand and pretend other historical threats like this didn't get worse."
And... the people in their world DO know about Blackbeard and what he's been doing. They know more than we do, in fact.
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WHy are you so hell bent on the idea that the semi-defunct Warlords, many of which have been beaten or turned traitor in the last couple years, will be a huge only topic of discussion…. while the Emporers, who are doing the exact same things only on a bigger, scarier scale, that are getting the current brunt of Marine focus, won't be? (And hey, a former marine admiral has apparently teamed up with them. SO that's gotta be news too, right?)
Because the Warlords operate with the protection of the WG with immunity from the Marines in all oceans and the Yonkou have only been shown to operate in one ocean and are clearly marked as enemies of the WG and Marines.
These are people conquering territory, massively opposing the government and order, with huge potential to spread out and cause more damage and create fleets of their own, now that one of them is a more unknown quantity that hasn't settled into a comfort zone. Throw in supernovas mixing it up and creating news on a daily basis and trying to topple and shake up that old order?
All of this is taking place in an isolated hard to reach area that has been this chaotic since Roger's time. There is no precedence for any of them trying to extend their power beyond this area. I've said both those things before though. Them threatening places outside of the NW is speculation based on I'm not sure what. As I've also already said, Kaido's war proclamation seems more like a threat to non-NW nations than BB even if BB is a newcomer.
Dresserossa is in the new world, but it apparently has a ton of political allies and influence… and it just got turned to rubble, and replaced its king literally overnight. That's a thing, you think it won't come up becase the island is day into the new world? Drum went through the same thing two years ago due thanks to Blackbeard.
By Fujitora's own admission the WG is responsible for the mess that is Dressrosa by allowing Doflamingo to abuse his status as a… Shichibukai. When King Nefertari gets to Reverie he will most likely discuss how his kingdom was almost overthrown by a... Shichibukai. BB was a nobody who despite destroying Drum Kingdom, a WG ally, went on to become a... Shichibukai. That he later goes on to become a Yonkou is just an even greater stain on the program. Law's alliance with SH only adds to this problem.
Do I really have to bring up the Hitler example AGAIN? I use Hitler because he's the famous name, but you can put in any dictator/conqueror name you want. Ceaser, Napoleon, Sadaam Hussein, whatever.
"Hey, there's this guy conquering territory out there that's killing a lot of people. Eh who cares, he's England's problem. Just leave him alone, he couldn't possibly become a bigger problem as long as we bury our heads in the sand and pretend other historical threats like this didn't get worse."
You can keep bringing up Hitler but I'll just repeat what i've already said on the matter. Based on their objectives, geographic placement, and army strength none of those are good analogies to BB or the rest of the Yonkou in the NW.
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If the only reason why members of the reverie should talk about Blackbeard is because he's the endgame of a manga they know nothing about and a final adversary for a character most of them have no investment in then that's a dumb reason to me.
You're basing their topics of discussion on what you know and how you expect the story to proceed instead of basing it on what they know and how their world, as far as we know, operates.
If Oda wrote their discussion like that, based on information they don't have, it would be very poor writing.
Yeah, leaders speaking about a character with the potential to destroy the world is completely unreasonable.
Because the Warlords operate with the protection of the WG with immunity from the Marines in all oceans and the Yonkou have only been shown to operate in one ocean and are clearly marked as enemies of the WG and Marines.
False. Shanks often operates in the East Blue for starters. Foosha Village was even called a base of operations once, and he was already a legend at the time.
And let's not forget that the Goa Kingdom is right next door.
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Why do you thik we just had negotians with Iran about their nucear program? THey are on the other side of the world, isolated far away from us. But they have the potential to be super dangerous so we need to talk about it. World leaders get together and talk about world problems.
I just don't understand how you can keep going "it's ONLY the grand line, no one cares about the isolated populations living in it." Hey, Japan is a tiny isolated country. It still has trade functions with the rest of the world, is a massive exporter of goods, and has a population of 130 million… and the US went to war with them a few decades back despite... being on opposite sides of the world and it being just a tiny island all by itself.
They don't generally go "that massive ever expanding, growing in power, threat over there is at the moment only threatening 20 or 30 nations, we don't need to talk about it." (And hey, they curtailed Boa Hancock and the amazons afer one excursion by making her a warlord to put her on a leash. Just one island though, right? And relative unknown Buggy they went "Lets contain this growing problem... put a leash on it with a Warlord offer.")
Literally every time the yonkou come up people talk about how much power and influence they have and that they are the biggest deal around on that half of the world. And some of them DO cross the border, we know Shanks did for sure, often enough for one of his bases to be in East Blue... and Ace, as a subordinate of Whitebeard, clearly went back to the start of the grand line to hunt for Blackbeard. Buggy upon meeting Ace, said not to upset WHitebeard or else he'd come down on you, and that was in the first half of the grand line... Buggy didn't feel safe from his reach there.
WHY do you think the WORLD does not care about a large number of territories where a lot of people live and the strongest, most threatening and influential people hang out? There was peace for a long time mostly because WHitebeard was scary but overall peaceful and content to just hang out... that's not the case anymore. Someone, with literally the power to shake the world apart and demolish entire islands in seconds, is going around amassing power. He's gonna get talked about. Blackbeard was a Warlord for like, 2 days. He's been a yonkou for 2 years. No one is going to talk about "Hey, remember that two days he pretended to be loyal to the government?" No, they'll talk about "Hey, remember how that guy helped set off the great war? WHo has gone on to colelct the strongest criminals in modern history, and is conquering stuff that has two fruits that can destroy the world?"
The first half of the series focused on Warlords, so they're what we got a plot points and what we saw in action, because Oda introduced us to the world slowly. Just because we, as readers, didn't know those guys existed and were doing stuff, doesn't mean they weren't important or worth talking about. We knew Shanks from the start but didn't know his true importance till a decade later. The one reverie we've seen, was for about five minutes and followed young Vivi taking some abuse, nothing more. We didn't know about the Tenryubiito until Sabondy... but then it turns around and turns out they had a base next to Luffy's home town and were hugely influential in his life ten years ago.
Nami's hometown, in east blue, was terrorized by pirates for a decade. But thats just one isolated city, so who cares, right? Chopper's home town, terrorized and wrecked. But no one cares about Drum, its not like those guys were at the last reverie... oh wait.
Just because the readers haven't been given a detail, (oh, it turns out Ace is Rogers son, and the marines knew this all along! But the Strawhats and Ivonokov didn't!) because we're following a narrative, doesn't mean the world at large lacks info or concern or talks about things.
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They'll have to talk about the Yonkou if even only to discuss how abolishing the Shichibukai will effect the balance of power.
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I dont think the revelry will be an arc or two before the final war, that puts it 10 years away at least.
I think it will be after the kaido downfall saga, which should take us past a zou set up arc, wano and the arc where they actually beat him.
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Why do you thik we just had negotians with Iran about their nucear program? THey are on the other side of the world, isolated far away from us. But they have the potential to be super dangerous so we need to talk about it. World leaders get together and talk about world problems.
Our world is much more connected physically and economically than the OP world. Oda has spent a lot of time stressing how difficult it is to move around the world and how this difficulty creates isolation. Not unreachable inaccessible areas but it's much easier to go from Iran to Israel than it is to go from Raijin Island to Saobody. Water 7 was isolated from islands that surrounded it if not for the sea train. The difference completely changes how threats are perceived. If every time Iran wanted to attack Israel it had to wait a couple days to get ships coated and then attempt a journey with a survival rate of 30% with said fleet their relations would probably be a lot different.
I just don't understand how you can keep going "it's ONLY the grand line, no one cares about the isolated populations living in it." Hey, Japan is a tiny isolated country. It still has trade functions with the rest of the world, is a massive exporter of goods, and has a population of 130 million… and the US went to war with them a few decades back despite... being on opposite sides of the world and it being just a tiny island all by itself.
Japan isn't isolated. I can fly there in less than 24 hours which is incredible considering the distance. I can get to the other side of the world in under a day. It took Luffy months to make a similar journey. That distance and difficulty makes a huge difference in how countries and powers relate to each other. You can't compare them like they're equal.
Literally every time the yonkou come up people talk about how much power and influence they have and that they are the biggest deal around on that half of the world. And some of them DO cross the border, we know Shanks did for sure, often enough for one of his bases to be in East Blue… and Ace, as a subordinate of Whitebeard, clearly went back to the start of the grand line to hunt for Blackbeard. Buggy upon meeting Ace, said not to upset WHitebeard or else he'd come down on you, and that was in the first half of the grand line... Buggy didn't feel safe from his reach there.
I've already explained my thoughts on this thinking and I'm the one who brought Shanks into this discussion. I don't ever recall hearing about him having bases in the East Blue though. We don't even know for certain if he was an emperor when he was in the east blue. Not to mention that it took Ace months to catch up Blackbeard even though BB left a clear trail of destruction. Nothing in this paragraph is proof that the Yonkou have a major presence outside the NW. If anything it's proof of how long it would take their direct influence to reach other parts of the world.
WHY do you think the WORLD does not care about a large number of territories where a lot of people live and the strongest, most threatening and influential people hang out? There was peace for a long time mostly because WHitebeard was scary but overall peaceful and content to just hang out… that's not the case anymore. Someone, with literally the power to shake the world apart and demolish entire islands in seconds, is going around amassing power. He's gonna get talked about. Blackbeard was a Warlord for like, 2 days. He's been a yonkou for 2 years. No one is going to talk about "Hey, remember that two days he pretended to be loyal to the government?" No, they'll talk about "Hey, remember how that guy helped set off the great war? WHo has gone on to colelct the strongest criminals in modern history, and is conquering stuff that has two fruits that can destroy the world?"
I've already answered this as well.
The first half of the series focused on Warlords, so they're what we got a plot points and what we saw in action, because Oda introduced us to the world slowly. Just because we, as readers, didn't know those guys existed and were doing stuff, doesn't mean they weren't important or worth talking about. We knew Shanks from the start but didn't know his true importance till a decade later. The one reverie we've seen, was for about five minutes and followed young Vivi taking some abuse, nothing more. We didn't know about the Tenryubiito until Sabondy… but then it turns around and turns out they had a base next to Luffy's home town and were hugely influential in his life ten years ago.
I really want a source on this base. I'm pretty sure they just showed up in Luffy's hometown from time to time. Also we've spent most of the second half of the series dealing with a Shichibukai. He might not be the end goal but Dressrosa was nothing if not focusing very hard on a Warlord.
Nami's hometown, in east blue, was terrorized by pirates for a decade. But thats just one isolated city, so who cares, right? Chopper's home town, terrorized and wrecked. But no one cares about Drum, its not like those guys were at the last reverie… oh wait.
Just because the readers haven't been given a detail, (oh, it turns out Ace is Rogers son, and the marines knew this all along! But the Strawhats and Ivonokov didn't!) because we're following a narrative, doesn't mean the world at large lacks info or concern or talks about things.
It also doesn't mean the rest of the world is as concerned about certain people as the reader is. Logistically BB isn't a threat to the rest of the world. He's a threat to everything in the NW but no more a threat than the other Yonkou. If he's brought it, the focus won't be on his activities in the NW drawing concern from nations around the world because that's not a real threat. It would be different if he could be in luffy's home town in less than day but he can't. It would be different if the world wasn't used to a pirate controlling large amounts of territory with autonomy in an isolated region of the world but that's been the norm for years. WB's declaration of OPs existence did more to upset the status of countries outside the NW than the regime change itself.