what will be awsome, it's if dofla is completly ko but strat to be moved around like a puppet by the own will of if awekend DF
Chapter 790: "Heaven and Earth"
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Pretty sure we will have an enraged rampage mode Doflamingo next chapter. (without glasses!!)
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when I saw that Luffy panel I spent a few seconds wondering how durable his hat has to be, poor thing has been through some rough stuff
It has his own haki-bar xP -
Pretty sure we will have an enraged rampage mode Doflamingo next chapter. (without glasses!!)
You could expect that from a stubborn CoC-user. But then look at Chinjao who just gave up on his power to give it to Sai. He didn't give that CoC-vibe to me at all.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
But maybe it is thanks to Doffy's CoC, that the Cage could not be broken by Zoro and the likes. That Topic didn't just bothered me iirc.
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Like never showed us that he ad a Strawhat…
starting from the beginning. sorry if it has been already shown
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@O:
what will be awsome, it's if dofla is completly ko but strat to be moved around like a puppet by the own will of if awekend DF
if the df user is a vessel for the devil/demon and the demon can actually act on its own, that would be dangerously close to naruto. what next, the user and the demon become buddies and fight together? too similar to naruto imo.
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To me it didn't feel like the end of the fight.
Now that we see Doflas eyes, we can see him fight more.
Then when he truly gets done, his eyes can be seen going white.
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You remember Hody, right?
Hody isn`t that bad. There, I said it! Seriously though, once you learn that the whole point of Hody is that he is an embodiment of pure, blind, misguided hate, it makes his character a lot more meaningful. I definitely prefer him over the likes of Krieg or even Lucci (badass, but literally just bloodthirsty government drone). Doflamingo was pretty damn good though. Evil, charismatic, cool fighting style, interesting backstory.
Also, it`s a pet peeve of mine, but this complaining about the supporting characters in this arc needs to stop. Okay, Riku and Rebecca are lame, I agree. But the gladiators? Really? Lame and forgettable? Oda just dropped, like, twenty characters with interesting and fun designs and personalities into our laps, and this whole forum was so amazed that we even had a character tournament just for these new characters! I also remember basically everybody here wanting a spinoff for the Doflamingo Pirates, because, again, awesome and fun, great designs etc.. There a genuine flaws in this arc, but I hate it when people have this sort of revisionist history going on and act like things that everybody loved are actually disliked and bad. Next thing you know, people will start talking shit about the flashback.
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To me it didn't feel like the end of the fight.
Now that we see Doflas eyes, we can see him fight more.
Then when he truly gets done, his eyes can be seen going white.
agreed with you, Oda is tricking us right now… and I believe because the bird cage figth will not end by Dofla being defeated
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You remember Hody, right?
Hody was also bad… but for different reasons.
He has a wide range of abilites that he's gained through adapting his Devil Fruit in pretty much every way he can.
It's pretty much a core element that makes One Piece so great, seemingly less than useful abilities being adapted for powerful usages.
It's true, but at the same time, the extent of it is different. The scale is different, only matched perhaps by Law.
Why do the strings stop telepatic communication between snails? How is able to generate sweat on his string clone? How is able to hear the same things as his string, when no connection between him and it exists? Why are his strings of vastly different quality, strength and sharpness, depending on the situation? All those question remained handwaved as a part of his devil fruit power, but by all accounts, the range is too big.
One Piece, usually, managed to keep itself within limits of some reason at least.
Yeah, the messed up spawn of a dynasty who all believe that they're better than normal people being torn down by his fathers decisions and experiencing horrific events which then subsequently turn him into a power hungry sadist is awful and lacks intrigue.
No, its about a kid who had everything, losing everything and turning his back on the world.
Creating his own family of followers who are drawn to him because of his fantastic charisma and outstanding power.
A fallen god choosing to later play god over an island of helpless citizens.
Yeah, I'm not buying this.
Pretty much everything Doffy has done or embodied has made total sense in relation to his backstory.
This is all well and good, and when interpreted in such, the backstory indeed seems pretty nice…
But then you remember that Corazon claimed Doffy was born evil. And you remember that Doflamingo was showing evil actions, like wanting slaves and to shoot people way before the worst happened.
This isn't the story with depth in it, when you consider it. Doflamingo is not creation of his enviroment, but an argument for nature over nurture. The positive qualities that could have given him depth (His relation to his new family, his suffering at the hands of the common people) are left largely unexplored, and with him falling down this time, they probably won't be any time soon. Cover Story, perhaps?
I'm sorry, but the context, to me, seems to be pointing towards your interpretation of Doflamingo being somewhat inconsistent with what was shown in the story. But of course, that would be just my opinion.
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This post makes your first paragraph completely pointless.
The point is, there is a limit to how much character toughness I am prepared to willingly believe and precedents do not make the present situation any better. This arc already had Law with a severe case of endless endurance, and now it seems like every single person we've seen skewered by Doffy's string spikes will very soon be laughing and singing at the mandatory party. There's even the risk that princess Mansherry may magicalgirl everyone and everything back to their former glory. How does any of this give weight to the battle?
Doula's Awakening is literally just more threads, so it's not less efficient than his previous fighting style. Never mind the fact that Gear Fourth literally made Doula's hand to hand combat useless.
Maybe the problem isn't with the awakening itself, but how he's using it. It's like Razh said: Doffy was versatile and creative before, manipulating people like mere puppets, cutting limbs left and right. Yet his awakening results in a harebrained set of spikes tactics. Can you see how this is a bit of a disappointment?
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Doflamingo was manipulative and creative before. That was before he lost his cool, after getting a good beating from Luffy's G4. Now he's just on a rampage with nothing but Luffy in his mind. He started slipping, is that too hard to believe?
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But then you remember that Corazon claimed Doffy was born evil. And you remember that Doflamingo was showing evil actions, like wanting slaves and to shoot people way before the worst happened.
This isn't the story with depth in it, when you consider it. Doflamingo is not creation of his enviroment, but an argument for nature over nurture. The positive qualities that could have given him depth (His relation to his new family, his suffering at the hands of the common people) are left largely unexplored, and with him falling down this time, they probably won't be any time soon. Cover Story, perhaps?
It was his environment that made him evil, because he just adapted the behaviour surrounding him and his greatest desire was to come back into that elite circle.
Otherwise we could say for each celestrial dragon they are born evil, but that´s not the case, because we have Doffys family as example that some think different…too bad for Doffy.
For him never his real family was the one he looked up to, it was always the lifestyle of the celestrial dragons, that´s why he hated them so much after they didn´t allow him back in, even after killing his father for them. (you can only hate what you once loved)
You see with his crew, that those who guarantee him this position, he always felt loyal to...even creating a deep bound, because without them he wouldn´t have what he desires.(standing as a god) -
It's true, but at the same time, the extent of it is different. The scale is different, only matched perhaps by Law.
Why do the strings stop telepatic communication between snails? How is able to generate sweat on his string clone? How is able to hear the same things as his string, when no connection between him and it exists? Why are his strings of vastly different quality, strength and sharpness, depending on the situation? All those question remained handwaved as a part of his devil fruit power, but by all accounts, the range is too big.
One Piece, usually, managed to keep itself within limits of some reason at least.
It's Haki. I ain't gotta explain s***.
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Hody isn`t that bad. There, I said it! Seriously though, once you learn that the whole point of Hody is that he is an embodiment of pure, blind, misguided hate, it makes his character a lot more meaningful. definitely prefer him over the likes of Krieg or even Lucci (badass, but literally just bloodthirsty government drone). Doflamingo was pretty damn good though. Evil, charismatic, cool fighting style, interesting backstory.
Not exactly the most nuanced character of all time though, huh?
I'll admit that Lucci is also a pretty lackluster character, but at least he posed a genuine threat for a long time.
Hody moved from racist ranting to getting his ass kicked and then back to racist ranting. Rinse and repeat.
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@Don:
It was his environment that made him evil, because he just adapted the behaviour surrounding him and his greatest desire was to come back into that elite circle.
The basic society group is family. His was good to point of being nearly saintly. Do you argue that Homing in no way sheltered his little kids from slavery and killing, allowing them to do it as they saw fit? Because that doesn't seem right.
Regardless, the person closest to him as a family (Rocinante) claims that he was born evil, and not effect of his enviroment. He even questions how was it possible that somebody as good as Homing could raise somebody that evil.
What you are saying stands in direct contradiction to manga, I'm afraid.
@Don:
Otherwise we could say for each celestrial dragon they are born evil, but that´s not the case, because we have Doffys family as example that some think different…too bad for Doffy.
Again, it's not I who says it, but Rocinante, a Doffy's brother. If this speculation on my side, then I could agree with you. Unfortunately, we have strong evidence against it being so.
@Don:
For him never his real family was the one he looked up to, it was always the lifestyle of the celestrial dragons, that´s why he hated them so much after they didn´t allow him back in, even after killing his father for them. (you can only hate what you once loved)
Minor point, but how does his father fit into that theory?
Again, regardless, what we are talking here is Doffy's nature and character. He might have loved the Celestial Dragon lifestyle, I don't dispute that, but I would argue he did it because he was evil in the first, and the privaleged position allowed him to take full advantage of that.
@Don:
You see with his crew, that those who guarantee him this position, he always felt loyal to…even creating a deep bound, because without them he wouldn´t have what he desires.(standing as a god)
The crew he was going to cut to pieces via Birdcage? Because remember, at no point does he express any intention of saving them once the birdcage starts closing.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Not exactly the most nuanced character of all time though, huh?
I'll admit that Lucci is also a pretty lackluster character, but at least he posed a genuine threat for a long time.
Hody moved from racist ranting to getting his ass kicked and then back to racist ranting. Rinse and repeat.
But wasn't that kinda a point? His shallowness, I mean?
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@superv:
very underwhelming. it's basically the Diamante and Kyros fight all over again.
still though, dofa may come back so im not letting my hopes down yet.What? This fight has been going on for 10 chapters. 30 if you count the early parts with Law and Trebol.
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Hody was also bad… but for different reasons.
Because he was a two dimensional douche who continually got his ass handed to him?
It's true, but at the same time, the extent of it is different. The scale is different, only matched perhaps by Law.
Law's powers stretch way further than Doffy's, lets be honest.
Doffy is using strings to do all this stuff, while Law literally has the ability to change the environment around him as he sees fit.
Why do the strings stop telepatic communication between snails?
The consensus seemed to be something to do with the strings disrupting the signals in some fashion, but it's never been fully explained.
How is able to generate sweat on his string clone?
I'll admit, that one is weird, and obviously not something that Oda thought through.
It's hardly a massive deal though, is it?
How is able to hear the same things as his string, when no connection between him and it exists?
Do you mean the same things as the string clone?
He doesn't really seem to have a connection with it at all, considering his surprise when Luffy had destroyed one of them.
Why are his strings of vastly different quality, strength and sharpness, depending on the situation?
…because he can produce more string/manipulate them in different fashions each time?
It's not really hard to see that these strings are all the same at the root of it all.
That's why, for example, it took a while for the birdcage string to be produced and set into place, while things like parasite can be used instantaneously.
All those question remained handwaved as a part of his devil fruit power, but by all accounts, the range is too big.
One Piece, usually, managed to keep itself within limits of some reason at least.
I'm wondering how you feel about Law's powers?
Doffy's range of powers is big, but he's clearly a master of his DF after decades of use.
I really don't think his range of powers is that outlandish for a DF user of his experience and stature.
And you remember that Doflamingo was showing evil actions, like wanting slaves and to shoot people way before the worst happened.
Because he was already x years old and had presumably has been influenced by the actions of the other Celestial Dragons he was living around.
This isn't the story with depth in it, when you consider it. Doflamingo is not creation of his enviroment, but an argument for nature over nurture. The positive qualities that could have given him depth (His relation to his new family, his suffering at the hands of the common people) are left largely unexplored, and with him falling down this time, they probably won't be any time soon. Cover Story, perhaps?
Just because things haven't been full explored yet doesn't make him a poor villain though.
We've already seen enough from his actions towards his family to know that he cares deeply about them, which is a fairly big deal for a One Piece villain.
There's no way that Doffy won't be reappearing and in a prominent role at that.
I'm sorry, but the context, to me, seems to be pointing towards your interpretation of Doflamingo being somewhat inconsistent with what was shown in the story. But of course, that would be just my opinion.
Well, I'm afraid I disagree with your opinion.
I think your focusing too much on 1) Corazon's statement of Doffy being born evil, which is most likely metaphorical and 2) evaluating Doflamingo in poor fashion because some parts of his character haven't been explored YET.
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I agree that Doflamingo is an extremely cool villain.His Ito Ito no Mi is amazing and his overall design and personality are truly memorable.
But,unfortunately,I think that Oda didn't use his amazing potential as an arc villain to the fullest.I think that some elements from his past could've been better explored,for example.The same goes for his epic confrontation with Luffy…their fight had some great moments here and there,but well...now that we're beholding the end of it,I must say that I'm not totally satisfied with the final product.
Maybe my expectations were too high because of Oda's brilliant capacity to deliver hype in the most unexpected ways,ya known...but whatever.Let's see what comes next after Mingo's fall. -
But wasn't that kinda a point? His shallowness, I mean?
There's a difference between a character being shallow and being two dimensional.
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This is all well and good, and when interpreted in such, the backstory indeed seems pretty nice…
But then you remember that Corazon claimed Doffy was born evil. And you remember that Doflamingo was showing evil actions, like wanting slaves and to shoot people way before the worst happened.
This isn't the story with depth in it, when you consider it. Doflamingo is not creation of his enviroment, but an argument for nature over nurture. The positive qualities that could have given him depth (His relation to his new family, his suffering at the hands of the common people) are left largely unexplored, and with him falling down this time, they probably won't be any time soon. Cover Story, perhaps?
I'm sorry, but the context, to me, seems to be pointing towards your interpretation of Doflamingo being somewhat inconsistent with what was shown in the story. But of course, that would be just my opinion.
This particular interpretation has nothing to do with him being born evil or not, so it doesn't really matter what Rosinante thinks.
"Evil" people can also suffer trauma and become even worse.
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This particular interpretation has nothing to do with him being born evil or not.
Bad people can also suffer trauma and become even worse.
Yes, but one is tragic and the other is largely inconsequential.
Doflamingo liked killing for fun and having slaves to order around. Come his ascension to the throne, and he does the same, only on slightly larger scale. How does it constitute depth of character?
You are free to like Doffy, subjective opinions and all, but I personally find his characterisation to be shallow, with his qualities as a character superficial.
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He'd sit a lot better with me if he wasn't portrayed as pure evil character.
Although, maybe I spoke too soon. We could have a flashback coming.
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Doflamingo liked killing for fun and having slaves to order around. Come his ascension to the throne, and he does the same, only on slightly larger scale. How does it constitute depth of character?
Because giving him trauma and nightmares made him more human despite being a complete psycho. A villain does not need positive qualities to be tridimensional.
Doula might be evil, but even evil can get attached to its toys and tools.
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Because he was a two dimensional douche who continually got his ass handed to him?
The latter part yes. Former I thought worked quite nicely with motives set up for the arc.
@RobZilla:Law's powers stretch way further than Doffy's, lets be honest.
Doffy is using strings to do all this stuff, while Law literally has the ability to change the environment around him as he sees fit.
I find both to be largely unenjoyable.
The consensus seemed to be something to do with the strings disrupting the signals in some fashion, but it's never been fully explained.
I'll admit, that one is weird, and obviously not something that Oda thought through.
It's hardly a massive deal though, is it?
Do you mean the same things as the string clone?
He doesn't really seem to have a connection with it at all, considering his surprise when Luffy had destroyed one of them.
…because he can produce more string/manipulate them in different fashions each time?
It's not really hard to see that these strings are all the same at the root of it all.
That's why, for example, it took a while for the birdcage string to be produced and set into place, while things like parasite can be used instantaneously.
I'm wondering how you feel about Law's powers?
Doffy's range of powers is big, but he's clearly a master of his DF after decades of use.
I really don't think his range of powers is that outlandish for a DF user of his experience and stature.
See, little complaint mount up to big ones.
Any one of those things (And I hardly listed them all), would be passable if on it's own.
When combined, however, they create very strong impression of plot convinience.
Also, cage didn't took that long to create. And yes, the fact that Doflamingo has such range creates plot-holes when he is not using it, most notably against Luffy.
And I disagree about it not being a massive deal. Doflamingo can basicaly create life (A string capable of independent thought, having conversations and bodily functions), and that is not something that can be just handwaved as part of his fruit. Otherwise, we might simply throw any internal logic out of the window, but then, anything can be considered good when you do that, so what's even a point?
Because he was already x years old and had presumably has been influenced by the actions of the other Celestial Dragons he was living around.
That is not what manga says.
Just because things haven't been full explored yet doesn't make him a poor villain though.
We've already seen enough from his actions towards his family to know that he cares deeply about them, which is a fairly big deal for a One Piece villain.
There's no way that Doffy won't be reappearing and in a prominent role at that.
I cannot speculate about the future, but I haven't really seen anything to indicate that level of care towards his crew. Except for PH conversations, and even that I would be willing to put under manipulation.
I mean, does he raise concerns for his crew at all as they fall? Does he worry that he might kill them with his birdcage? He didn't have an even passing reaction to Trebol's apparent demise.
As it stands, I am not as convinced that Doflamingo will return. And even if he does, I find it quite possible it won't be with his crew, similary to Croc's return. And I think that within the confines of the arc, a huge opportunity was missed to explore their relation further.
Well, I'm afraid I disagree with your opinion.
I think your focusing too much on 1) Corazon's statement of Doffy being born evil, which is most likely metaphorical and 2) evaluating Doflamingo in poor fashion because some parts of his character haven't been explored YET.
Why wouldn't I put much focus on the only in-character opinion of Child-Doffy that has some semblemce of objectiveness, being uttered by his born brother?
For the second part: My evaluation is based on what we currently have available, and not predictions of the future, because I have no idea if those will come true.
If it does, I will revaluate Doflamingo. If it doesn't (which frankly, I find quite a possible outcome), I will not. Simple as that.
And mind you, your defence can be used for anything, and there isn't really a counter for it. That makes it somewhat meaningless.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Because giving him trauma and nightmares made him more human despite being a complete psycho. A villain does not need positive qualities to be tridimensional.
Doula might be evil, but even evil can get attached to its toys and tools.
Does it? By mere existing? How do they affect his character? How do they influence his actions? What meaning do they have within the confines of the story?
Because if those are not present, then it isn't a trdimensional character, it's a pretty window dressing on pretty shallow characterisation.
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The basic society group is family. His was good to point of being nearly saintly. Do you argue that Homing in no way sheltered his little kids from slavery and killing, allowing them to do it as they saw fit? Because that doesn't seem right.
Regardless, the person closest to him as a family (Rocinante) claims that he was born evil, and not effect of his enviroment. He even questions how was it possible that somebody as good as Homing could raise somebody that evil.
Homing most likely realised in his later years, that living like that is wrong, or else he would have decided to go out of this society way earlier.
But Doffy still grew up there and you can´t simply deny the influence the society there made on him. (also his father must have had an expierence to understand his decision, while Doffy was lacking this, instead getting bad examples when he was thrown in that for him foreign environment, where he suddenly couldn´t act as he used to be, which isn´t easy for a kid)
Explaining to a kid that the behaviour you see all the time around you and grants you great benefits is wrong, isn´t simply done just like that, especially after the time he already spend there while he grew up.
Seeing the society act like you being a god and then suddenly breaking out of this "familiar" environment was something Doffy couldn´t understand with his young age and we see that he accuses his father for it.Rocinante is younger than Doffy, so he wasn´t able to judge if he was born evil or not in the first place.
For him he was evil, because he couldn´t understand that Doffy was so against the teachings of his father, which Rocinante likely got in an early developing state, while Doffy was confronted with this new perspective while he was already a bit older than his brother and had formed a world view for him.
You could argue that Homing was teaching him this before, but that seems to be not the case, because afterall Homing had to make that decision first for himself and than came with it to his family.(by that Rocinante was still a very young child and more open to it than Doffy)
Doffy most likely didn´t have a strong bond to his father, unlike Rocinante, who was heavily influenced by Homing, which explains why they both developed so differently.
The bond between you and your parents is a crucial factor of your development and Doffy saw his father as someone who robbed him of his status, which made him despise even more those ideas of becoming "normal" people, his father was striving for. (add to that what people had done to him after they realized where they came from and even his father admitting his mistake)
That he had no bonding person in his father is further shown in him creating his own "family" with his pirate crew, to compensate for that lack in his life, when we want to go further into the early childhood development theory. (also the dead of his mother showcases that she was more a bonding person to him, which he saw helpless to the decisions the father made to his family) -
Im seeing a trend of people complaining non-stop for the last (insert number) chapters as if Oda has gone off the deep end and this Manga will never return to its former glory.
Everyone that complains seems to be sure that the last chapters of Luffy recovering were a bad move and that clearly One Piece has declined because its not interesting.
Everyone that complains seems to know the reason why Fujitora is the way he is and that theres no piece of information that could possibly redeem or explain his behaviour.
Everyone who complains seems to know exactly what would make the arc better, what parts of the arc should be removed, what makes an interesting manga, what apparently broke this arc and how One Piece will never be the same.
But when Oda gave you Gear 4 everyone was going wild and suddenly your interest peaked. The second Luffy stopped fighting and you had to tolerate any other story elements, your interest declined with words like "formulaic", "uninteresting" and "unoriginal" being thrown around.
I believe that Oda has made this arc finale into exactly what it should be. We as readers have been "stuck" inside this Bird Cage, wanting to move on desperately. Everyone wants to know whats going on with the rest of the Strawhats. Everyone wants the story to stop dragging. The usually grand and epic scope of One Piece has been confined to the same setting and plot for so long it feels restrictive and desperate. Doflamingo has kept the characters and us readers from enjoying the manga of fun and freedom we have come to know and love. So we as readers somewhat mirror the feelings of the characters within the arc.
I believe that once we see the breath of fresh air we need in the following 10 chapters, with the obligatory aftermath, worldbuilding, commenting, repercussions, etc. chapters, we will be able to look back at this arc in another light. There will be a stark contrast between the usual freedom and joy of the manga and this heavy, oppressive, limiting and slow moving arc.
I think that right now Luffy's desire to break free echoes our readers. He has become our voice. What I believe is that when read consecutively, this arc will be much greater without all the grief that the weekly waiting has wrought upon us.
So I think all of us forum-goers are glad to have this arc finish. If only to see the whining stop. And there has been so much of it. All of the toil generated just because we are in a place where something has to be said. This is a forum. We are here to discuss. The problem is that when there is nothing much to discuss it is much easier to bitch and critizise that just be patient.
So, having done my fair share of internal bitching, and having allowed this forum to taint my appreciation for this manga for too long, I have traversed the five stages of grief and have come to an understanding of sorts. This manga is changed, but it may be with purpose. If only we could be patient I believe we'll see the purpose of this arc and everything in it when we dont have to lose our patience everytime nothing happens.
I hope this makes sense to you guys, and I hope that it resonates on some level with those that have lost faith on Oda and this manga.
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Does it? By mere existing? How do they affect his character? How do they influence his actions? What meaning do they have within the confines of the story?
Because if those are not present, then it isn't a trdimensional character, it's a pretty window dressing on pretty shallow characterisation.
Well, his nightmares definitely made him the determined psycho that he is, without having any emotions for the lifes surrounding him, because him was done wrong and now he pays every penny back.
Those nightmares consolidated his believe of other people being low-lifes and he acts accordingly without any regrets.
Don´t see where you´re missing the influence of those in his behaviour he showcases all the time^^ -
Does it? By mere existing? How do they affect his character? How do they influence his actions? What meaning do they have within the confines of the story?
Because if those are not present, then it isn't a trdimensional character, it's a pretty window dressing on pretty shallow characterisation.
The trauma and nightmares allowed him to welcome Law to his crew, raise him and think of him as his future right-hand. He identified himself with Law and his background.
Also, his desire to destroy the world was born from all the experiences he had and the hatred he developed against the Celestial Dragons. This is actually stated at one point.
And let's not forget his hesitating when he hears about the D. from Law. That's fear caused by stories he heard from childhood as told by Rosinante.
Overall, he has a lot of traits he obtained in the past that does give him depth and actually do come up in the story every now and then.
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Hody moved from racist ranting to getting his ass kicked and then back to racist ranting. Rinse and repeat.
But wasn't that kinda a point? His shallowness, I mean?
I'd agree with Sparkle that that was kinda the point. Hell, the point of the Fishman Island arc itself.
Hody was truly nothing but a racist asshole. Even more so than Arlong, who had at least experienced injustices. In fact I'd argue that his essentially useless power ups and subsequent ass kickings (and eventual dependence on the energy steroid) were to further the point even more about just how pathetic racism is. Reinforced even more by how when he got desperate he was completely willing to wipe out fishmen for their "lack of pride"; deeming them unworthy to live. Not just "to show how strong Luffy/the crew has become".
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Why wouldn't I put much focus on the only in-character opinion of Child-Doffy that has some semblemce of objectiveness, being uttered by his born brother?
But everything Rosinante speaks is not at all objective. What he say is just his opinion and you are wrong to interpret it as anything else.
In Rosinante's eyes, Doffy is simply the one who killed his beloved father. In becoming a marine and going back undercover, it was all a deeply personal affair of revenge(and bringing him to justice).Doflomingo was clearly affected by his upbringing with the CDs and for you to utterly dismiss that is nonsensical.
Does it? By mere existing? How do they affect his character? How do they influence his actions? What meaning do they have within the confines of the story?
Because if those are not present, then it isn't a trdimensional character, it's a pretty window dressing on pretty shallow characterisation.Stuff like this is used so often in fiction to portray character motivation and lasting psychological impacts (and therefore effects) of certain past events.
You really should ask yourself those questions, they are all answered in the story itself, with a little interpretation and common sense. -
@Don:
Well, his nightmares definitely made him the determined psycho that he is, without having any emotions for the lifes surrounding him, because him was done wrong and now he pays every penny back.
Those nightmares consolidated his believe of other people being low-lifes and he acts accordingly without any regrets.
Don´t see where you´re missing the influence of those in his behaviour he showcases all the time^^Because, frankly, I don't see the connection being nearly as strong as you imply it to be.
There is a difference between me being an idiot who can't read properly, and me not agreeing with your impretetion of an work of art. Because, and excuse me for saying this, from my point of view, it looks like you built plots that do not exist on implications alone, when much stronger implications exists pointing towards opposite being true.
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But everything Rosinante speaks is not at all objective. What he say is just his opinion and you are wrong to interpret it as anything else.
In Rosinante's eyes, Doffy is simply the one who killed his beloved father. In becoming a marine and going back undercover, it was all a deeply personal affair of revenge(and bringing him to justice).Opinions, yes, but strongly implied to be true. I don't believe we were supposed to interpret it as Rosinante judging Doffy unfairly, Oda would not put such emphasis on Doffy being evil as child in the first place if that was true.
Doflomingo was clearly affected by his upbringing with the CDs and for you to utterly dismiss that is nonsensical.
I do not utterly dismiss it, it would be nonsensical, as you yourself have said.
However, I do believe it his status was the catalyst that allowed his inherent flaws to manifest, and not something that created them in the first place.
Stuff like this is used so often in fiction to portray character motivation and lasting psychological impacts (and therefore effects) of certain past events.
True. I however argue that it is done badly here, and therefore characterisation of Doffy suffers.
You really should ask yourself those questions, they are all answered in the story itself, with a little interpretation and common sense.
I did. Multiple times. I have also re-read the arc, multiple times. I simply present the conclusions I have drawn from those experiences and nothing else.
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I agree that doffy was much less creative and strategic after G4. I think he got scared bc his non df attacks were rendered useless when they were so effective before and he panicked and just tried to cut him up with all his strings. That and after the beating he took I don't think he was thinking straight honestly(that may be a little too realistic, not sure if other villains have had this happen too)
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The trauma and nightmares allowed him to welcome Law to his crew, raise him and think of him as his future right-hand. He identified himself with Law and his background.
You think so? I always thought it was just another way to create a disposable pawn, similary to Baby-5.
Also, his desire to destroy the world was born from all the experiences he had and the hatred he developed against the Celestial Dragons. This is actually stated at one point.
True. That however stems from his experience of rejection by the Dragons, and not the experiences of his youth.
Again, the connection is not that strong to me here.
And let's not forget his hesitating when he hears about the D. from Law. That's fear caused by stories he heard from childhood as told by Rosinante.
That is not a connection to his trauma. But yes, that is a connection to his childhood as a CD.
Overall, he has a lot of traits he obtained in the past that does give him depth and actually do come up in the story every now and then.
To me, too little and they don't affect him nearly as much as they should.
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Because, frankly, I don't see the connection being nearly as strong as you imply it to be.
There is a difference between me being an idiot who can't read properly, and me not agreeing with your impretetion of an work of art. Because, and excuse me for saying this, from my point of view, it looks like you built plots that do not exist on implications alone, when much stronger implications exists pointing towards opposite being true.
Afterall a manga isn´t the medium to explicitly go into detail in such things, for that we fans are made for, hehe ;)
Non the less i just connected the standart theory about early childhood development with what we got to see in the manga to make a character and his motivations more understandable for you, because even by a shonen you have to connect dots and think from time to time for yourself.
(the whole fishman/racist arc we got also allows us readers to think a bit deeper into the whole scenario and we might get what the author wanted to transport to us via his limited medium about our society…or do you say it´s about fishman obviously and nothing else?)
So stating that you can properly read i don´t doubt and it sure gives you an impression that is neither wrong nor right, but saying Rocinante said Doffy was born evil, so that´s the way it is...simply isn´t were i draw the line. It might be for you and you can still get the whole story without a problem, but you stated you don´t get what Oda was trying to achieve with this character and so you just say he´s bad in your eyes.
But getting a bit deeper into the material might offer you new perspectives, that´s a reason why we people talk about such stuff.
That sure doesn´t have to change your opinion, but that might give you a new perspective, that might let you see it in another light.
And even in real life you do that by observing and interpreting, so it isn´t that far fetched to do so.Also don´t get me wrong, i don´t want to persuade you to like the character, i couldn´t care less, but i just want to state My opinion on him just like you do.
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I agree that doffy was much less creative and strategic after G4. I think he got scared bc his non df attacks were rendered useless when they were so effective before and he panicked and just tried to cut him up with all his strings. That and after the beating he took I don't think he was thinking straight honestly(that may be a little too realistic, not sure if other villains have had this happen too)
Crocodile was the entire opposite. He actually tried to use his DF less when cornered by Luffy.
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You think so? I always thought it was just another way to create a disposable pawn, similary to Baby-5.
It was also stated.
http://bato.to/read/_/275167/one-piece_ch752_by_powermanga/16
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@Don:
Afterall a manga isn´t the medium to explicitly go into detail in such things, for that we fans are made for, hehe ;)
True. But the arguments created here often remind me of those heard in defense of Bleach and Naruto, which I find frankly disturbing, because I would like to think my favorite Shonen hasn't fall so low yet.
Though I can draw suprisingly many pararels between this arc and Winter War arc of Bleach, as well as Pain arc of Naruto, both of which were the point after which I thought both series went downhill so… yeah.
@Don:
Non the less i just connected the standart theory about early childhood development with what we got to see in the manga to make a character and his motivations more understandable for you, because even by a shonen you have to connect dots and think from time to time for yourself.
It is certainly one interpretation, for sure, but not the one I would choose given available story material.
@Don:
(the whole fishman/racist arc we got also allows us readers to think a bit deeper into the whole scenario and we might get what the author wanted to transport to us via his limited medium)
Yes, which is why I held that arc in higher regard than some. Hell, I would argue that in terms of overarching motives it is actually superior to Dressrosa.
@Don:
So stating that you can properly read i don´t doubt and it sure gives you an impression that is neither wrong nor wright, but saying Rocinante said Doffy was born evil, so that´s the way it is…simply isn´t were i draw the line. It might be for you and you can still get the whole story, but obviously you stated you ain´t get what Oda was trying to achieve with this character and so you just say he´s bad in your eyes.
No, I do get what Oda was trying to achieve. I'm simply of opinion that he did not managed to do it well, and that the story he wrote stands in conflict with his intentions, thus creating an unfavorable impression on me as a reader. Some plot point are well executed, but as a whole, the characterisation of Doffy feels lacking to me.
@Don:
But getting a bit deeper into the material might offer you new perspectives, that´s a reason why we people talk about such stuff.
That sure doesn´t have to change your or opinion, but that might give you a new perspective, that might let you see it in another light.
And even in real life you do that by observing and interpreting, so it isn´t that far fetched to do so.Unless something massive is going to happen soon, I don't think I can change my opinion on an arc as whole right now. I've re-read it five times already (mostly to sort out my own feeling regarding some plot points). TL;DR version is: Lots of good ideas, but the execution is lacking.
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It was also stated.
http://bato.to/read/_/275167/one-piece_ch752_by_powermanga/16
Oh, forgot about that scene. Neat. I do think that overall pararels between Law and Doflamingo are well created; but since that conflict was kinda put aside for Luffy versus Doflamingo, which doesn't work nearly as well… shame really.
This arc would really benefit from Straw Hats not being part of it, come to think of it.
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Very disappointing arc, especially given that Law helped Luffy to an extreme degree to defeat Doflamingo and Luffy still lost to him and needed help getting away from him in order to make a come back 10 minutes later. We had to give up half of the strawhat crew for a huge number of chapters only to be given an arc that went downhill as soon as they stopped appearing. As soon as we saw no more Sanji, Nami, Chopper, and Brooke, we also had a huge slowdown in the plot of the arc. Its almost as if Oda used it as an excuse to focus only on the arc and draw it out longer than it needed to be.
This arc started out amazing then got to be terrible. An admiral sitting around doing nothing compared to what he could be doing was one of the dumbest parts of this arc for me. 2nd was Ussop's pathetic behavior, and 3rd was people not going into the indestructible building for protection.
Ive been avoiding coming here to complain, but now that it is hopefully finally over, I can without a doubt say this was an arc that had a terrible second half and I have been reading One Piece every week since 2007.
FINALLY someone who voices displeasure with a chapter, yeah this arc was really kind of weak to me. I don't recall the last thing I liked about it. I recall saying something negative about Oda and almost being banned from the site. SMH.
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No, I do get what Oda was trying to achieve. I'm simply of opinion that he did not managed to do it well, and that the story he wrote stands in conflict with his intentions, thus creating an unfavorable impression on me as a reader. Some plot point are well executed, but as a whole, the characterisation of Doffy feels lacking to me.
Then again, what do you use as a standard for a great villain ? I'm not an encyclopedia but I've red and watched many stories with charismatic villains.
Sure in psychological thriller for adults only, villains have much more depth (or not!).
But in a media targeting a large audience created to deliver mostly adventure and action, yeah I think Oda did a great job with Doffy.
You sounds like you find a better villain whenever you turn on the TV.
What are you expecting from this shonen ? IMO Doffy is more fleshed out than Voldemort, Sauron, Agent Smith, Darth, Bowser, Dr No or many marvel and disney's villains.
Would I like Doffy to get the development of a Hannibal Lecter or a Franck Underwood ? Sure. Do I want the arc to last 10 years ? No. -
Unless something massive is going to happen soon, I don't think I can change my opinion on an arc as whole right now. I've re-read it five times already (mostly to sort out my own feeling regarding some plot points). TL;DR version is: Lots of good ideas, but the execution is lacking.
I think we should all let it be for a while and read it again in volumne form before our final judgement will be engraved on stone :)
A big flaw of Oda was to tease us with even bigger events on the horizon, so it may be hard to enjoy the moment sometimes.
But flawless it definitely wasn´t there i guess we can all agree. -
I recall saying something negative about Oda and almost being banned from the site. SMH.
There's a huge difference between actually criticizing the work and outright insulting the author. The latter is the only way that would happen.
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Kyaaah! Galaxy-san just winked at me.
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Then again, what do you use as a standard for a great villain ? I'm not an encyclopedia but I've red and watched many stories with charismatic villains.
Sure in psychological thriller for adults only, villains have much more depth (or not!).
But in a media targeting a large audience created to deliver mostly adventure and action, yeah I think Oda did a great job with Doffy.
You sounds like you find a better villain whenever you turn on the TV.
What are you expecting from this shonen ? IMO Doffy is more fleshed out than Voldemort, Sauron, Agent Smith, Darth, Bowser, Dr No or many marvel and disney's villains.
Would I like Doffy to get the development of a Hannibal Lecter or a Franck Underwood ? Sure. Do I want the arc to last 10 years ? No.There are many standarts by which I judge a villain. Characterisation. Implementation. Overarching motives working in conjecture with him.
The problem, I think, is that the characterisation is the only thing Doffy has going for him. His backstory is the thing most unique to him as a character. When you take that away, you are left with a villain who often acts stupid, stopped being that much charismatic around the time birdcage went up, devolving largely to your saturday morning cartoon villain speaches, and whose powers are made of plot convenience.
It's a matter of personal taste, I think. I don't require depth for my Shonen villains, and I thought guys like Croc, Lucci or Sakazuki worked well, despite the fact that Oda didn't try to characterise them as much as he did Doffy.
However, since in my eyes Doffy doesn't have that much going for him, except for his story, the positive impression he left on me is somewhat… not there. At all.
It's a combination of many things, really.
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@Galaxy:
There's a huge difference between actually criticizing the work and outright insulting the author. The latter is the only way that would happen.
Also, kinda pathetic to wait for others to voice displeasure before doing it yourself.
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Also, kinda pathetic to wait for others to voice displeasure before doing it yourself.
Shrugs Not like you are exactly welcoming to people more critical of the arc.
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@Don:
I think we should all let it be for a while and read it again in volumne form before our final judgement will be engraved on stone :)
A big flaw of Oda was to tease us with even bigger events on the horizon, so it may be hard to enjoy the moment sometimes.
But flawless it definitely wasn´t there i guess we can all agree.I will say this: It may not have been the worst in One Piece history, but it definetely is the most disappointing one.
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The super birdcage won't go down because of the super awakening which never stops unless someone is dead but thanks to law it will get shambled with a seagull.
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There are many standarts by which I judge a villain. Characterisation. Implementation. Overarching motives working in conjecture with him.
The problem, I think, is that the characterisation is the only thing Doffy has going for him. His backstory is the thing most unique to him as a character. When you take that away, you are left with a villain who often acts stupid, stopped being that much charismatic around the time birdcage went up, devolving largely to your saturday morning cartoon villain speaches, and whose powers are made of plot convenience.
It's a matter of personal taste, I think. I don't require depth for my Shonen villains, and I thought guys like Croc, Lucci or Sakazuki worked well, despite the fact that Oda didn't try to characterise them as much as he did Doffy.
However, since in my eyes Doffy doesn't have that much going for him, except for his story, the positive impression he left on me is somewhat… not there. At all.
It's a combination of many things, really.
I actually agree that Doula wasn't great at villainy, but I like him mostly for his characterization.
Crocodile is pretty much the opposite. Great villain, but as deep as the average Bond villain (so far, at least).
Those two have so many opposing traits. Pretty impressive.
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Opinions, yes, but strongly implied to be true. I don't believe we were supposed to interpret it as Rosinante judging Doffy unfairly, Oda would not put such emphasis on Doffy being evil as child in the first place if that was true..
It's only implied to be true when you believe it is. You are taking the voicing of an opinion as something more when it's not. I don't want to waste time talking to you about the details, but that "such emphasis" is just the simple denouncement of an antagonist, which happens way too often to you to extrapolate into something more.
To everything else you have said, I guess it's just a matter of personal belief.
I know some people that allowed me to relate to the personality that Doffy developed. Upbringing and traumatic events like that can really desecrate some people. Turn them into something vain and just full of contempt and hatred. It's too much of a coincidence to make me believe that they had some "inherent flaws" that made them different. Maybe I'm just pushing my personal beliefs into his character, but I guess I enjoyed his character creation. -
It's only implied to be true when you believe it is. You are taking the voicing of an opinion as something more when it's not. I don't want to waste time talking to you about the details, but that "such emphasis" is just the simple denouncement of an antagonist, which happens way too often to you to extrapolate into something more.
So you would argue that what Rocinante said was completely inconsequential?
To everything else you have said, I guess it's just a matter of personal belief.
I know some people that allowed me to relate to the personality that Doffy developed. Upbringing and traumatic events like that can really desecrate some people. Turn them into something vain and just full of contempt and hatred. It's too much of a coincidence to make me believe that they had some "inherent flaws" that made them different. Maybe I'm just pushing my personal beliefs into his character, but I guess I enjoyed his character creation.I would agree with you, if not Rocinante's comment, and the fact that Doffy was quite ok with slavery, and shooting people, quite contrary to the rest of his family.
Either Homing was a complete failure at raising his children (Rocinante would point towards that not being true, considering he grew up in the same enviroment), or Rocinante is right, and there was something inherently wrong with Doffy. I have confess to leaning towards the latter.