Bart Simpson Thread XI: The Movie - The Manga Adaption - The Animation

valiantt

Besides the fact that they (Hashirama and Madara) never held hands, the reason why Obito was so horribly redeemed is because his younger self "resembled" Naruto in so many ways and Kishi wants us to continuously sympathize with Naruto and his determined innocence while showing us that sometimes people can lose their way but the ever unfailing Naruto can set them right again. If you can recall the exact same circumstances set up the same weak attempt of redemption for Nagato because he too was very much like Naruto in the past. Although Nagato was never forgiven Kishi did try to build up sympathy for his character by having him laughably revive everyone he just killed in the village because of a book title.

Obitio (who was very much like Naruto) sacrificed his life to help Team 7 defeat Kaguya.
Nagato (who was very much like Naruto) revived everyone he killed with the exception of Jiraiya.
Itachi (who is now being shown compared to Naruto) supposedly prevented a war between the clans by massacring people.

Madara did nothing to be redeemed and that's why he and pre-timeskip Orochimaru are some of the best villains in the series because they're just…bad.

Yet why give him the "pleasant passing happy ending?" A guy that caused so much crap and you have him pass away with his lover. Yeah, if that's not Kishi attempt at saying "hay, he's totally NOT THAT BAD. In fact, I dare say he's a decent guy. Redeemed in all your eyes right?" Same goes for Orochimaru "He's not that bad. In fact, he's kinda like your neighborhood goofy pedo uncle. Look how funny he is. Har har har!" Not sure if he gave Orochimaru a redemption moment, but Kishi sure did try to put him in a "not so bad" guy category like what he forcibly did with Madara.

One often thinks turning bad guys into good ones is an easy thing to do but…no, it's not. It requires a fair of development (instead of "HAY, he's just like Naruto guys. Can you see it? Yup? Okay, I don't need to go any further than that"), some shades of gray, and some tricky narrative maneuvering. Nagato was fairly stupid, Itachi was retconned terribly into being a "good guy", and Obito is simply the worst based on the fact that he was redeemed completely (to the point that he was put into that "cool guys" panel while Iruka was insultingly shoved off). I'm just baffled by the fact that Kishi doesn't grasp the idea that doing "one final good deed" doesn't automatically redeem someone with a history of causing misery to the extent that Obito did. That only puts them in a "dark-ish gray zone" rather than "good guy" zone. It would be like Hitler running into a burning building to save a puppy only to die of third degree burns in the hospital. He's a good guy right? Yup, completely absolves every crap he has done before hand.

Outerspec

@valiantt:

Yet why give him the "pleasant passing happy ending?" A guy that caused so much crap and you have him pass away with his lover. Yeah, if that's not Kishi attempt at saying "hay, he's totally NOT THAT BAD. In fact, I dare say he's a decent guy. Redeemed in all your eyes right?" Same goes for Orochimaru "He's not that bad. In fact, he's kinda like your neighborhood goofy pedo uncle. Look how funny he is. Har har har!" Not sure if he gave Orochimaru a redemption moment, but Kishi sure did try to put him in a "not so bad" guy category like what he forcibly did with Madara.

One often thinks turning bad guys into good ones is an easy thing to do but…no, it's not. It requires a fair of development (instead of "HAY, he's just like Naruto guys. Can you see it? Yup? Okay, I don't need to go any further than that"), some shades of gray, and some tricky narrative maneuvering. Nagato was fairly stupid, Itachi was retconned terribly into being a "good guy", and Obito is simply the worst based on the fact that he was redeemed completely (to the point that he was put into that "cool guys" panel while Iruka was insultingly shoved off). I'm just baffled by the fact that Kishi doesn't grasp the idea that doing "one final good deed" doesn't automatically redeem someone with a history of causing misery to the extent that Obito did. That only puts them in a "dark-ish gray zone" rather than "good guy" zone. It would be like Hitler running into a burning building to save a puppy only to die of third degree burns in the hospital. He's a good guy right? Yup, completely absolves ever crap he has done before hand.

Orochimaru actually helped out Sasuke and the Shinobi Alliance by reviving the previous Hokages so that's why I said pre-timeship Orochimaru.

Again, Madara did nothing but die peacefully with his failed dreams and his rival telling him goodbye. Not much of a redemption.

ArmamentHero

@Purple:

Again, time investment for something we already had expectations of and we do want to see the ending of. Yes, it was clear that he wasn't going to keep up what he promised us at the beginning, but the war was already looking like it should be the end of the series.

Which is true, but not in the way as was intended

not like Fairy Tail which has zero ending in sight and hasn't had that investment in

Maybe if they didn't invest all that time reading something that's disappointing to them. Maybe they could avoid disappointment. I did it with Bleach, but I try not bash it, you know?

valiantt

@Outerspec:

Orochimaru actually helped out Sasuke and the Shinobi Alliance by reviving the previous Hokages so that's why I said pre-timeship Orochimaru.

Again, Madara did nothing but die peacefully with his failed dreams and his rival telling him goodbye. Not much of a redemption.

Ugh Orochimaru. I don't even want to get into what a dreck he turned out to be in part 2. He pretty much turned into a freaking stooge if one is to compare what he did in part 1. Pretty much one of the top five characters bastardized by the end of the serie.

Harishima's final quote suggests otherwise. "Comrade." YUP! Comrade. I don't know what else to insinuate from that line. Heck, even Madara seemed baffled by that line.
http://mangafox.me/manga/naruto/vTBD/c691/13.html

Cyan D. Funk

Daily reminder that Yamamoto's still stuck in a wall.

Also Anko's lying around somewhere and Killer Bee fucked off to who knows where.

valiantt

And Jiraiya?…WHO KNOWS?!

Purple Hermit

@ArmamentHero:

Maybe if they didn't invest all that time reading something that's disappointing to them. Maybe they could avoid disappointment. I did it with Bleach, but I try not bash it, you know?

The investment's already been made, though. It's like a longstanding book series you used to enjoy but now lost that love but still want to see how it ends.

Like Harry Potter I didn't really enjoy in the last few books, but I still stuck around to the end because I wanted to see how it wrapped up.

Also Wagomu's point on actually saying why it's bad, but you get to that point with Naruto because there was still that feeling of goodness that drew you in in the first place.

ArmamentHero

@Purple:

The investment's already been made, though. It's like a longstanding book series you used to enjoy but now lost that love but still want to see how it ends.

Like Harry Potter I didn't really enjoy in the last few books, but I still stuck around to the end because I wanted to see how it wrapped up.

Also Wagomu's point on actually saying why it's bad, but you get to that point with Naruto because there was still that feeling of goodness that drew you in in the first place.

Yeah, you're right, I even admitted, that Naruto wasn't as great as part 1, but it was still good. Despite the obvious inconsistencies, character management and plot holes. It still was good, not the greatest, not the worse.

Algetrig

@Purple:

The investment's already been made, though. It's like a longstanding book series you used to enjoy but now lost that love but still want to see how it ends.

Like Harry Potter I didn't really enjoy in the last few books, but I still stuck around to the end because I wanted to see how it wrapped up.

Also Wagomu's point on actually saying why it's bad, but you get to that point with Naruto because there was still that feeling of goodness that drew you in in the first place.

Hold on you didn't enjoy the last few books of hp? Off topic a bit but why not?

When I'm talking to people who don't read manga and I'm coming up for analogies for the big three in manga I compare them to book series. A Song of Ice and Fire for One Piece, Harry Potter for Naruto, and Twilight for Bleach.

Purple Hermit

@ArmamentHero:

Yeah, you're right, I even admitted, that Naruto wasn't as great as part 1, but it was still good. Despite the obvious inconsistencies, character management and plot holes. It still was good, not the greatest, not the worse.

At least we can all agree that Naruto is no Shaman King

for whatever that is worth

valiantt

@ArmamentHero:

Yeah, you're right, I even admitted, that Naruto wasn't as great as part 1, but it was still good. Despite the obvious inconsistencies, character management and plot holes. It still was good, not the greatest, not the worse.

I still haven't heard why it was good in spite of the flaws. And mind you, there's a TON of flaws.

Outerspec

@valiantt:

Ugh Orochimaru. I don't even want to get into what a dreck he turned out to be in part 2. He pretty much turned into a freaking stooge if one is to compare what he did in part 1. Pretty much one of the top five characters bastardized by the end of the serie.

Harishima's final quote suggests otherwise. "Comrade." YUP! Comrade. I don't know what else to insinuate from that line. Heck, even Madara seemed baffled by that line.
http://mangafox.me/manga/naruto/vTBD/c691/13.html

There's nothing to insinuate except that Hashirama always saw Madara as a friend.

http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/621/9

That hasn't changed since the beginning of their rivalry.

MasterKingJC

Only Kishimoto would completely waste the opportunity to make Naruto hokage on his own birthday, and instead have him spend the day fighting with his boyfriend.

Not very surprising from the master of missed opportunities.

ArmamentHero

@Purple:

At least we can all agree that Naruto is no Shaman King

for whatever that is worth

Shaman King's overall writing, characterization, and art was full of holes. Yet, it also lasted awhile didn't it?

Purple Hermit

@ArmamentHero:

Shaman King's overall writing, characterization, and art was full of holes. Yet, it also lasted awhile didn't it?

Again, popularity means jack squat to actual quality

valiantt

@Outerspec:

There's nothing to insinuate except that Hashirama always saw Madara as a friend.

http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/621/9

That hasn't changed since the beginning of their rivalry.

Yet Madara didn't see it that way (hence his baffled response with the comrade line). The fact that Hashirama utilized that line is a grating parallel to the Kakashi+Naruto/Obito and eventually Naruto/Sasuke thing; thus bringing the embarrassing circle of redeeming the Uchihas in general to a close with the story's two main characters. The line was utilized to indicate that Madara should be redeemed regardless as he is still considered to be Hashirama's friend (much like how Sasuke will get his with Naruto going on and on about him being a "friend" the entire time in spite of Sasuke thinking otherwise). So what I believe Kishi is trying to do here is suggesting that it's not Madara's action that redeems Madara but the fact that Hashirama still sees him as a friend in the end which makes Madara's character "redeemable".

Also, it seems to be a fairly obvious move to make ALL the Uchihas "redeemed" in a way and Madara is no exception to this.

But it's all horseshit.

ArmamentHero

@valiantt:

I still haven't heard why it was good in spite of the flaws. And mind you, there's a TON of flaws.

The good parts, alright. Part 2 had some great characters with great ability, The action sequences involving Hidan, Kakuzu against Naruto and company was really well done. The dialogue between Pain and Naruto was quite good. Sasuke's small adventure with Team Hawk after Orochimaru's death was entertaining because of the interactions between them. Sasuke's fight with Itachi was well balanced. The war showed how powerful the Juubi was. The plot concerning the Sage of the Six path's was good. What I thought was well written and you think is different. But at least I'm able list some aspects.

Algetrig

@valiantt:

I still haven't heard why it was good in spite of the flaws. And mind you, there's a TON of flaws.

I'm not ArmamentHero but I would say Naruto was good because most of its characters had interesting powers, the main character was well fleshed out and had meaningful interactions with the cast, the narrative was fun to follow, and it had exceptional fights.

ArmamentHero

@Purple:

Again, popularity means jack squat to actual quality

This is true. Even if one side says it has poor writing, the other side is going to say it was well done. It's honestly stupid to argue about any story and it's plot holes because of that.

Purple Hermit

@ArmamentHero:

This is true. Even if one side says it has poor writing, the other side is going to say it was well done. It's honestly stupid to argue about any story and it's plot holes because of that.

No, plot holes and story have actual qualities that can be assessed. Unlike some basic level english class, there are things that are fundamentally build a good story, and there are things that make things inconsistent and difficult. You can have an opinion on how you enjoy themes, certain aspects such as if you enjoy gore or a way things are presented, but you can still argue whether something is executed well or how elements are utilized effectively in the story or how consistent something is, these are all things that can be assessed. Now, we may never come to a meeting place for it, but discussion other than "well I _felt_ it was good" is something that can be done.

But popularity is not one of those metrics. To take it to the extreme, I highly doubt that people will say Twilight is superb writing, but the invisible hand of the market has already spoken.

ArmamentHero

@Purple:

No, plot holes and story have actual qualities that can be assessed. Unlike some basic level english class, there are things that are fundamentally build a good story, and there are things that make things inconsistent and difficult. You can have an opinion on how you enjoy themes, certain aspects such as if you enjoy gore or a way things are presented, but you can still argue whether something is executed well or how elements are utilized effectively in the story or how consistent something is, these are all things that can be assessed. Now, we may never come to a meeting place for it, but discussion other than "well I _felt_ it was good" is something that can be done.

But popularity is not one of those metrics. To take it to the extreme, I highly doubt that people will say Twilight is superb writing, but the invisible hand of the market has already spoken.

Anyone can analyze any story, but ultimately they're going to say different things regarding the subject. That's the same with any plot, I've seen and heard all kinds of analytical reviews on a story, but ultimately all sides had something different to say.

Outerspec

@valiantt:

Yet Madara didn't see it that way (hence his baffled response with the comrade line). The fact that Hashirama utilized that line is a grating parallel to the Kakashi+Naruto/Obito and eventually Naruto/Sasuke thing; thus bringing the embarrassing circle of redeeming the Uchihas in general to a close with the story's two main characters. The line was utilized to indicate that Madara should be redeemed regardless as he is still considered to be Hashirama's friend (much like how Sasuke will get his with Naruto going on and on about him being a "friend" the entire time in spite of Sasuke thinking otherwise). So what I believe Kishi is trying to do here is suggesting that it's not Madara's action that redeems Madara but the fact that Hashirama still sees him as a friend in the end which makes Madara's character "redeemable".

Also, it seems to be a fairly obvious move to make ALL the Uchihas "redeemed" in a way and Madara is no exception to this.

But it's all horseshit.

The main difference is that the other Uchiha's actually did something to try and be redeemed and showed some good quality to them. Madara on the other hand only died failing to put the whole world under his illusion. I don't see him being Hashirama's friend as…an attempt to redeem him.

Razh

I don't think anything could have redeemed Hidan.

It's a pity there weren't more assholes like him in Naruto.

Robby

The flashback art was good this chapter.

valiantt

@Outerspec:

The main difference is that the other Uchiha's actually did something to try and be redeemed and showed some good quality to them. Madara on the other hand only died failing to put the whole world under his illusion. I don't see him being Hashirama's friend as…an attempt to redeem him.

That's my point. Madara doesn't have to do anything in the story to be redeemed in the eyes of the reader. All Kishi has to do is "LOOK! It's just like Obito/Kakashi, and inevitably Sasuke/Naruto. Clearly he's not a bad guy right? Now he's redeemed in all your eyes. Huzzah for him". That's what makes it stupid. He didn't do anything to deserve that comparison and the "friend" moment. It's just Kishi trying to impress the idea upon his readers.

If he didn't want to convey this idea, he could have easily shoved him off screen and cross his fingers that everyone forgot what happened to his corpse.

Purple Hermit

@ArmamentHero:

Anyone can analyze any story, but ultimately they're going to say different regarding subject. That's the same with any plot, I've seen and heard all kinds of analytical reviews on a story, but ultimately all sides had something different to say.

Which comes down to how you feel. And it's acceptable to like Naruto as long as you acknowledge its incredibly flawed premise and plethora of incredibly questionable choices. We will vehemently disagree with it, but it's okay to like it as long as you understand that there is a lot that just ain't right from a writing perspective. I'd imagine that's how a lot of readers of Toriko feel at times whenever complaints are thrown around that the pacing is outta wack, but we stick around because Shima continues to deliver on some crazy stuff. Or with JoJo, I don't really think people are in it for an incredibly consistent story, and if you pop by that thread you'll notice that, in spite of all the fun stuff and great ideas thrown around, there are things that aren't that satisfactory, or things that aren't as great as later parts. I think Part 3 gets a lot of heat with Araki kinda figuring out how to use stands in Part 3, but it's definitely not one of the better executed parts

But things that are critiqued, assessed, and analyzed based on actual things that show up in the story and its execution, and this differs from saying "well I enjoyed it at least." Now, not everyone will agree on what criteria is "good" or "bad", for example Nobodyman really not digging the chimera ant arc of Hunter x Hunter or people really not liking the huge amount of narration has been taken incredibly different by people, but discussing why these things are negative or positive tells us a lot about what a really good work is

springsring

I hope we at least get one more Naruto and Iruka scene because it seems like Naruto's forgot about him currently.

ArmamentHero

@Purple:

Which comes down to how you feel. And it's acceptable to like Naruto as long as you acknowledge its incredibly flawed premise and plethora of incredibly questionable choices. We will vehemently disagree with it, but it's okay to like it as long as you understand that there is a lot that just ain't right from a writing perspective. I'd imagine that's how a lot of readers of Toriko feel at times whenever complaints are thrown around that the pacing is outta wack, but we stick around because Shima continues to deliver on some crazy stuff. Or with JoJo, I don't really think people are in it for an incredibly consistent story, and if you pop by that thread you'll notice that, in spite of all the fun stuff and great ideas thrown around, there are things that aren't that satisfactory, or things that aren't as great as later parts. I think Part 3 gets a lot of heat with Araki kinda figuring out how to use stands in Part 3, but it's definitely not one of the better executed parts

But things that are critiqued, assessed, and analyzed based on actual things that show up in the story and its execution, and this differs from saying "well I enjoyed it at least." Now, not everyone will agree on what criteria is "good" or "bad", for example Nobodyman really not digging the chimera ant arc of Hunter x Hunter or people really not liking the huge amount of narration has been taken incredibly different by people, but discussing why these things are negative or positive tells us a lot about what a really good work is

You sir, i agree with this. Every single story has plot holes and inconsistencies, and yes we should discuss why a story is good or bad. This is precisely what I think, when I think of Naruto and some other series.

Nex 0

Meh. I've enjoyed this series well enough. Yes it suffered a rather big drop in quality between the start of the series and now, and there are a lot of things in it that make me feel like ramming my head against the wall, but I don't know. I enjoyed the ride. It never made it to the realm of Bleach. It was a fun series with some fantastic characters (Who may or may not have been later made not-fantastic) and some great artwork every now and then.

And I don't know if anyone will agree with me, but this page was fantastic:
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/698/6

Now all that said, I have one thing to get off my chest:
@Magi:

Addressing its numerous faults isn't vile or hating.

Do you really want to call what goes on in this thread "addressing" its faults. That is too soft of a word. This thread has become one of the circle-jerkiest of circle-jerks that I have ever seen. Some of the old Naruto threads got bad, but nowhere near this level. Yes, I understand the Kaguya thing deserves a lot of hate, but to label all of this "addressing" is an understatement. Yes, there is legitimate criticism seen here. But it hasn't changed in three years. People just keep complainging about the same things they have been for years. Then of course there's the constant Naruto and Sasuke are gay jokes, which this chapter walked right into. It's just, this material was exhausted in 2011. How are you all not bored saying the same things over and over? If it was just addressing, you would be. But there is enjoyment in it for everyone, because that's how a circle-jerk works. You're getting validation for yourself while shitting on others. Which is what lead to Halfmetal-lich feeling the need to make that post.

Robby

What people coming into this thread now, or within the last six months, or who just skim it ocassionally without actually regularly reading it…

What they can't appreciate about the reaction we have, is that we didn't just jump in and bash the series for fun one day, it was a long, slow decline. We didn't overnight go "I hate Naruto now, lets make fun of it." It happened over years, more than a decade for some of us. Going from "this series is really good and I like it!" to "That arc was a little bit weak, maybe it'll be better next arc" (middle of part 2) to "wow, that arc was bad" to "holy crap this is awful" to "there is just no chance of this series ever fixing itself now" (around the Pain deus ex machina) to "is it over yet?"

And by the time we got to the obvious end arc (and we didn't know it was going to last FOUR YEARS) we'd already been committed to it for a long time. Several years of enjoyment, then several years of hope... full of apathy, but still wanting to see how it ended... and commiserating with other in just HOW bad it had gotten. Its a nice release.

Go back through the archives a couple years. Its no constant bitter bashing hatred, there were long periods of discussion, and hope, and often happy memories of the good days.

Bleach is kind of the same but without the same highs Naruto once had, so we're not as connected to it, not as invested, and as a result, not as dissapointed in it. So it was easier to drop cold turkey at the end of an arc. Same with Fairy Tail which I just gave up on after about 200 chapters, it having never drawn me in to the characters or world at all.

For my part I haven't read more than an odd Naruto chapter in years until this one, (generally when the reactions were extremely WTF) and I barely follow the thread anymore... because the drag-on on just got to me too much anymore and even the amusement of the thread wasn't enough to outweigh the inadequacies of the never ending war and constant dissapointment.

@Algetrig:

Hold on you didn't enjoy the last few books of hp? Off topic a bit but why not?

The later books lost all the whimsy, fun, and good characterization that made the earlier books enjoyable, and in their place we got lots of wangst… and material where clearly the editors were now afraid to tell the author to trim it down for better pacing because she was too big. The series getting darker as the characters got older was fine, but the ammount of it versus whimsy was in really bad proportion later.

@Nex:

Yes, there is legitimate criticism seen here. But it hasn't changed in three years. People just keep complainging about the same things they have been for years.

Thats because Kishi did the exact same thing for three years. Not even any rainbows of hope or 6,000,000,000 exploding tags or armadillo penises or "half our army is dead in the first day, lol" to mix it up or. Just never-ending badly choreographed war with only one character being of any importance. We'd make new jokes and observations… but there wasn't ever anything new the last several years.

Aside from the EXCELLENT Rock Lee spinoff, which we rave about and love at length, because it continues to deliver everything that we originally liked about it in the first place! Which just proves the point that we still like the world, the character, the story... it was just the execution and direction and art and overall package it turned into that we hated. But we raved at lenght about Rock Lee manga, singing its praises constantly, calling it "the Real Naruto". The spinoff is still golden! We all loved it! We were super positive and excited about that whenever it came out!

@Algetrig:

I'm not ArmamentHero but I would say Naruto was good because most of its characters had interesting powers, the main character was well fleshed out and had meaningful interactions with the cast, the narrative was fun to follow, and it had exceptional fights.

That described part 1 quite well.

Now please say what was good about part 2.

Ouroboros

Welp, I guess I can't proclaim the Uchihas are super fucked up with their love cancer anymore. Because that would mean that I'm just bashing the same points over and over again to make myself feel better. Anything I say that isn't new and original is actually a reflection of how much I want validation by shitting on others.

Purple Hermit

Oh, and in the midst of the discussion, I forgot to say my actual reaction to the chapter.

"This is how the ebola spreads."

MetaMario

Believe me, I said I'd give Naruto credit if this last battle was really grandstanding and gave it some dignity to go off on.

With this chapter I'd say…..ehh. Some of the visuals were nice (Naruto covered in blood and determined to win, for instance), but it had too much melodrama. I don't even know to feel about the arm thing. Really cool or really bleh because they both had to lose them?

Outerspec

@valiantt:

That's my point. Madara doesn't have to do anything in the story to be redeemed in the eyes of the reader. All Kishi has to do is "LOOK! It's just like Obito/Kakashi, and inevitably Sasuke/Naruto. Clearly he's not a bad guy right? Now he's redeemed in all your eyes. Huzzah for him". That's what makes it stupid. He didn't do anything to deserve that comparison and the "friend" moment. It's just Kishi trying to impress the idea upon his readers.

If he didn't want to convey this idea, he could have easily shoved him off screen and cross his fingers that everyone forgot what happened to his corpse.

But nothing in Madara's final moments said, "Look, this guy is pretty cool, right?" It was purely of a moment of one friend saying goodbye to his greatest rival…probably only rival now that I think about it. Only in Hashirama's eyes was Madara a friend. Does that make him sympathetic and redeemable to the reader base? Surely not in your eyes and definitely not in mine.

The Spaceman

Man do I wish Naruto had remained with that Chunin Exams era quality. I'd be sad and excited to see it go. It'd go down as one of my favorites. Now, it's just sad to see go. It had such potential.

valiantt

One wouldn't make as many gay jokes about the serie if Kishi didn't make it so god damn easy (I wonder if Kishi is actually oblivious to all this or is deliberately being self aware in his work). It's like prohibiting one to use the words "boobs" and "Fairy Tail" in the same sentence.

PS: Apparently Nex wasn't around when that Rock Lee spinoff was going on.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Outerspec:

But nothing in Madara's final moments said, "Look, this guy is pretty cool, right?" It was purely of a moment of one friend saying goodbye to his greatest rival…probably only rival now that I think about it. Only in Hashirama's eyes was Madara a friend. Does that make him sympathetic and redeemable to the reader base? Surely not in your eyes and definitely not in mine.

It's not the scene itself and how it relates to the story, but the intention behind the scene. What is Kishi trying to evoke with the scene? Why not just shove Madara out of the story the moment he died?

God of Skypeia

I'm surprised no one has posted the image of Sasuke being punched in the face. So delicious.

Outerspec

@valiantt:

It's not the scene itself and how it relates to the story, but the intention behind the scene. What is Kishi trying to evoke with the scene? Why not just shove Madara out of the story the moment he died?

A small farewell to a legend and one of the greatest ninja in the manga's history.

If Kishi was trying to redeem Madara he did it in the least subtle and most ambiguous way possible.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@God:

I'm surprised no one has posted the image of Sasuke being punched in the face. So delicious.
[qimg]http://img.mangastream.com/cdn/manga/49/2587/02.png[/qimg]

I did laugh at how far Sasuke flew. That was one hell of an uppercut.

MetaMario

Nuts, the picture where I posted where Sasuke said "Ah nuts, I number the pages wrong" is dead.

EDIT: Lol at mangastream using "fucking"

.access timeco.

I can't say I dislike Naruto.
I loved it up to the end of the Tsunade arc and enjoyed many parts that came after it despite hating some others. The war was one of the worst things I ever read in every possible aspect, but I've grown to like the characters and the world behind them, so even if almost every week in the last years was made of complete disappointment and embarrassment, I can't say it made me dislike the manga as a whole. I ended up crying (a bit) when Naruto said goodbye to his father some weeks ago and I am pretty sure the same will happen next week.

valiantt

@Outerspec:

A small farewell to a legend and one of the greatest ninja in the manga's history.

If Kishi was trying to redeem Madara he did it in the least subtle and most ambiguous way possible.

Subtle…maybe, ambiguous not at all. It's not hard to connect the dots with Love Cancer, Uchiha/Idiot parallel, and Kishi's relentless objective to screw up the story for the sake of redeeming the Uchihas to decipher what Kishi is trying to do with that scene.

Outerspec

@valiantt:

Subtle…maybe, ambiguous not at all. It's not hard to connect the dots with Love Cancer, Uchiha/Idiot parallel, and Kishi's relentless objective to screw up the story for the sake of redeeming the Uchihas to decipher what Kishi is trying to do with that scene.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this. In no way do I see Hashirama saying goodbye to Madara, who he always thought of as a friend, as some kind of redemption or even an attempt at a redemption. Just because there are parallels between the Uchiha amd Senju doesn't mean they've all been redeemed.

Indra was never redeemed and neither do I think was Madara.

Silverblade

@valiantt:

Subtle…maybe, ambiguous not at all. It's not hard to connect the dots with Love Cancer, Uchiha/Idiot parallel, and Kishi's relentless objective to screw up the story for the sake of redeeming the Uchihas to decipher what Kishi is trying to do with that scene.

You have some weird fixation to see a redemption where is none. It's like you are trying to ignore Kishimoto's writing habits. Madara's and Obito's arcs run parallel to each other (like everything in Naruto because that's how you make emphasis according to Kishimoto), and it's easy to compare them: if Kishimoto was planning to redeem Madara, he would have shoved quality illogical justification of his actions down the audience's collective throat hard enough to make them cry. Literally two panels of Hashirama paying respects to his friend and rival is not how Naruto's author would stage a redemption if we go by the numerous examples we have seen before. Kishimoto never included conciseness and subtlety in his usual modus operandi, and to start searching for them this late into the story is kind of futile.

Algetrig

@Robby:

The later books lost all the whimsy, fun, and good characterization that made the earlier books enjoyable, and in their place we got lots of wangst… and material where clearly the editors were now afraid to tell the author to trim it down for better pacing because she was too big. The series getting darker as the characters got older was fine, but the ammount of it versus whimsy was in really bad proportion later.

I'll say that this is a point where I think I can safely say we just have different opinions.

That described part 1 quite well.

Now please say what was good about part 2.

Haha I WAS talking about part 2

MasterKingJC

#NaruGate

Mickamott

Maaaaan, the manga ending next week is so surrreeeaaaallll. I feel like I'm in, like, eternal tsukiyomi or something duuude.

ArmamentHero

@Mickamott:

Maaaaan, the manga ending next week is so surrreeeaaaallll. I feel like I'm in, like, eternal tsukiyomi or something duuude.

Did you like the story overall? Do you think this is a fitting ending?

Robby

It would be a good ending if any member of the side cast had gotten proper closure to their arcs prior to this, or at least something pretending to be a defining moment, prior to the Naruto/Sasuke one on one… which itself is an excessive excercise in rehash.

Neji had his at the end of part 1, perhaps Choji as well, and I guess you can write off Gaara after he had the badger pulled out of him, but all the others were denied any purpose or role or even character development. Hinata had her love confession and sacrifice against Pain I guess, but given Naruto hasn't even MENTIONED IT in 263 chapters, (thats SIX YEARS) it doesn't really amount to much.

Where is Shino's growth? Ino's? Ten Ten? Temari? Kankuo? Hinata? Shikimaru? Kiba? A final fight for each of them to show the techniques and experience they've gained over the years? Giving their all, pushed to their limits to save the day against an enemy only they could deal with? Or even a character moment to reflect on? Each of these characters was shown, developed, given flashbacks and history, promoted as future equals and comrades in arms that would grow and aid in the years along the way, each to have unique fights and interesting battles. Ten Ten never even had a single on-camera battle in the entirety of the series!

(And no, Naruto giving them all a rasengan to throw from his overwhelming pool of demon energy, including Lee who can't handle such things, does not count.)

What of Tsunade and Iruka and Killer Bee and Orochimaru and Kabuto? What about the next generation that is supposed to surpass them?

Even the long promised "opening of eight gates to go beyond hokage level at the cost of death" was denied Lee, and was wussed out on with Guy. (Not to mention its use was ultimately pointless anyway.)

Even Sakura and Kakashi aren't getting to do anything relevant, and they're theoretically two of the four main characters..

Yes, there are still two more chapters for something to happen, but given everyone is going to have to wake up from their matrix pods and we've basically already bene promised the last chapter is a timeskip... thats really not enough space to do anything remotely satisfactory, not when the last 200 chapters were wasted not doing any of that.

Worst of all is this final battle.

The Naruto Sasuke fight is just the extension of the exact same fight they had FIVE HUNDRED AND FIFTY CHAPTERS AGO, and neither of the two has changed an ounce in personality or motivation since then! they got some more techniques, but you could literally cut and paste the last three pages of this battle onto their fight from part one, and aside from a line or two of dialogue, you wouldn't have missed a beat. They didn't grow, change, find reason to see things differently or have any better motivation than before or reflect on any of the things they've learned (like Jiraiya's prophecy, Itachi's sacrifice or the entirety of the war) ... it was just the exact same fight for the exact same reasons as it was when they were twelve. No more, and no less... and they even just used their old techniques!

When you can literally cut out ten years of the story and not one iota of this has changed since the fifth year of the story (and this goes for other series like Inu Yasha as well) then that's a problem.

And that is horrendously unsatisfactory.

pRopaaNS

Meheh, I thought about editing that panel to make Naruto and Sasuke hold their arms and change source of bleedout to both of their asses… But I'm not into gay stuff so I'm not going to bother doing that.

Taggerung

So does this end at 699 or 700?