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The Great New World Discussion Thread
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uppp cho bác nhiều buôn may bán đắt
You quoted me from like a 100 years ago and i don't understand your wizards language. Still though I would love the Straw Hat's to take on the big bosses of enemy groups. Like when Sanji got the chance to attack Doflamingo, I love it when the big bad gets attacked by guys or girls other than Luffy.
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i thought this was a thread about the new world… my bad.... lol
i find that 3d2y-special really boring, totally meaningless... buggy appearing all the time with his lucky strikes and his over-hyped crew really pisses me off
on the other hand i enjoyed hancock, she deserved some spotlight... she is a great character imo and i adore her. xD
those of you hating on oda, are totally barking up the wrong tree...
ok, that whole nude thing was really uncalled for, but that's how animation works... the drawing has to fit in the stereotypical image of the human body: men muscles, women curves... that's why every male member of the crew has now a six-pack... even usopp, the weakest member after nami, but no one said that that was sexist... moreover, there is no way of showing physical strength in women... ok they could have drawn them with more muscles, but that wouldn't fit into the stereotype of a female body... so their boobs grow... their gain in strength is shown through being more attractive.
hancock is the most beautiful person in one piece (at least that's what oda tried to express), her devil fruit's feature is to make use of the owner's attractiveness... so hancock is perfect for her devil fruit... it would be totally counterproductive if she started punching people or grabbing a sword or any other weapon, her body is her weapon... ok, you might not like it... like i hated foxy's moron-moron beam, but that's a personal issue and not due to oda's distorted view on women.
besides, i think there were a lot of women who played a decisive role in the story... otohime, belmere and many others... just because they had roles other than fighting, doesn't mean that oda treats them like they were inferior. nami, robin, hancock had to go through a lot of shit, but they kept fighting... not only physically, but also mentally...
bonney is a more masculine type of a woman, being a racket and cursing all the time... but that's not the typical image of a woman... but that doesn't mean women are discriminated against... they are just shown with different characteristics than men... and that's totally fine... it would be boring if both genders acted the same.
there, now that we cleared that up, can we please go back to talking about the new world? lol
Lorenor,
what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
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Lorenor,
what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Cant resist to butt in here,,,
How do you propose that Hancock fight should go then?
And the way i see it, his post is mostly rational, and far from idiotic. Its not even rambling. Take a look in the mirror once ok?
S/he just dont answer your points, thats all.
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One second im reading 763 chapter thread and then i end up here. Wth..
Day dreaming gets the best of me.. Jeez..
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but that's how animation works… the drawing has to fit in the stereotypical image of the human body
What the fuck are you talking about.
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Wow this thread is becoming awful.
Guys, if someone calls Oda/One Piece sexist, misogynistic, racist, or transphobic, do yourself a favor and ask the person with the claim of their points and possibly an explanation then go from there. If in cases such as this, the person posts about sexism about an anime special in the New World thread, claims it was Oda at fault instead of Toei/the person whoever thought of unnecessary fan-service throughout the ANIMEand then actually quotes Billy Madison, just do yourself a further favor by ignoring the person - and probably for future reference, consider him a troll.
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Wow this thread is becoming awful.
Guys, if someone calls Oda/One Piece sexist, misogynistic, racist, or transphobic, do yourself a favor and ask the person with the claim of their points and possibly an explanation then go from there. If in cases such as this, the person posts about sexism about an anime special in the New World thread, claims it was Oda at fault instead of Toei/the person whoever thought of unnecessary fan-service throughout the ANIMEand then actually quotes Billy Madison, just do yourself a further favor by ignoring the person - and probably for future reference, consider him a troll.
See, what I don't get is why would you even have to point towards anime, when chapter 755 exists…
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See, what I don't get is why would you even have to point towards anime, when chapter 755 exists…
Yeah sorry for the late reply.
But Darth, I really don't like repeating myself (even though I always end up doing so).
I'll even add to that, though.
Do none of you remember how Franky treats Nami?
Shiro Mokuba A.K.A. a Hobby Horse.
Then Nami secretly remodeled it.[hide][/hide]
How about how Franky addressed her? If I recall it was Komusume (こむすめ), an informal way of addressing, meaning "young girl".[hide][/hide]
Franky is a thug, well more like a delinquent - from the love of motorcycles, his hair and sunglasses to his mannerisms and attitude towards female.Senor Pink is an enemy, but it's clear as day that he says things he doesn't mean, just one example would be when Sugar was defeated and he insults her but also worries about her safety – hard boiled! [hide][/hide]
–So what else, the vaccuum? The one thing that actually makes sense when dealing with speedy little creatures?
Having said that though, it's true female characters' Devil Fruits/powers are conveniently matched with their gender, but it's not even HALF of the female characters and Oda stated himself that when it comes to female Devil Fruits - he thinks of powers relevant for them – which you can even say the same to the Devil Fruits that okama characters has.
"Gendered" Devil Fruits:
Alvida, Miss Valentine, Kalifa, Jewelry Bonney, Boa Hancock and Tsuru
Non "Gendered" Devil Fruits:
Nico Robin, Paula, Hina, Perona, Baby 5, Sugar, Viola, Jora, Miss Merry Christmas, Boa Sandersonia, Boa Marigold, Bian and Monet
So what, 6 out of 19?
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As for okama DF users:
Emporio Ivankov, Bentham and Inazuma
So 2 out of 3? But no one uses that argument, know why? This is just my opinion but I think no one argues it because it's useful and convenient - a "perfect match", so to speak.
So, in my opinion using the Devil Fruits/Powers argument to point out sexism is really dumb.
(Not to mention the male marine with the balls/berry Devil Fruit)
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For the life of me, I can only see two issues in One Piece actually relevant on the realm on the topic of sexism.
Claim: How the female's bodies are similar hourglass figures.
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Oda depicts women as hourglass figures because it's his preference (even Catarina Devon whom he stated needed to be devoid of "beauty" has it).
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He's a pervert, proven many times via SBS but the fan service in his actual work (being the manga) are never distracting. In fact, mostly only Sanji pays attention to women (and Brook to a certain degree).
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Most male characters also have similar builds, just more variety.
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I'm no artist but to quote one of Urasawa's works 'Billy Bat'. "Comic artists often say this. That characters who are easy to draw… almost feel like they're alive, and are moving and speaking on their own.." I could say this is relevant to not just character's bodies but their character designs as a whole (for example, Chopper's more "compact" look compared to his intro and the final time skip designs).
Claim: Sanji is misogynistic and transphobic.
To start off, the only thing I find misogynistic about Sanji's character is his lack of trust towards females being able to take care of themselves, but what do I know? I'm a dude. As for being transphobic, I feel like that's actually a misunderstanding, for the most part.
(Due to my small mistakes in my previous post, I'm choosing not to link it but re-post and add to it instead)
Since he was a child, Sanji was raised by a pirate in Baratie, the sea restaurant. Due to that however, pretty much as expected his communication with only manly men and ex-pirates molded him to grow up the way he is. Sanji's only exposure to female company were customers, ones that he was never raised to harm and serve wholeheartedly. From the very first time he met with the crew, I would say Zoro's attitude and words resonated with him the most. Sanji belittled his own desire to pursue his dream due to his twisted resolve to pay back his savior, to whom he never showed any good feelings or attitude towards, resulting in his own co-workers misinterpretation of their relationship. When he left the restaurant, it was shown that these men actually cared about him, that they showed it in a way that they only know how to, similarly to himself. Which explains his attitude/confusion (in multiple definitions) on Momoiro Island and in Sabaody.
His rivalry with Zoro as well as his massively shifting attitude towards the male and female crew members was his own way to show he cares for both alike - the only way he knows how and the same way he was raised. We've seen plenty of evidence of this: when he dived in first in Arlong Park, his retrieval of Usopp's goggles in Alabasta, his sacrifice in Skypeia despite saying that he wouldn't mind Usopp's death for Nami's sake, his clear emotional rage towards anyone who badmouthed Robin in W7 and Enies Lobby, letting Absalom attack him in return for Nami's safety. The most clear evidence however was his intentional sacrifice for his rival, he knew how much Zoro's ambition meant to him and that he believed in him to succeed in achieving it.
Now, Sanji's attitude towards women is his flaw but you can't exactly deny that it's not consistent to his character and his own resolves either. I understand a lot of people lost respect to him when he couldn't attack Kalifa, but Nami one of the very women he, himself thinks he has to protect, stepping up for him is a good start of a possible change for him (which was touched on with his conversation with Franky on Dressrosa). Not only that but his words to Usopp (and I believe to himself) shortly after was his own way to redeem his actions for Robin's sake. Usopp's weakness to fight Jabura but his skills as a sniper and Sanji's own inability to fight women and the honor to rescue Robin. I believe he understood all of it and left it up to Usopp to save her, which highlights Luffy's words in Arlong Park, as well as the SHs mindset as a crew - to be able to do what others can't and to which, he proved when he used the lever at the end of Enies Lobby to close the Gates of Justice.
After the time-skip Sanji excelled on the Color of Observation Haki and with it, unique to him(?), he's able to feel/hear a woman's true feelings/tears - which interestingly enough, he was also able to feel Tibany's (gag or not; take that as how you will). Sanji's also has hit a clear cut difficulty to perform per his resolve, becoming incapacitated then almost dying due to a nose bleed, saving a woman only to be beaten by Vergo, trying to save his crew, again only to be beaten by Doflamingo. It's not far-fetched to say that Oda is doing this to test his resolves even further and I, as a fan am glad.
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Oh and again the 'Nami face' is not limited to Oda or One Piece. However, it is more noticeable among heroine/female characters - having read and seen a lot of series, I know for a fact it's a bigger case among older mangaka's and the reason being, if I recall correctly, is that it's their 'ideal' face for an attractive (young) female. I think this was covered in Bakuman? Maybe? I don't remember.
Anyways, Darth shouldn't you be talking about the Marines or something? Try to understand Fujitora's character and justice, while you're at it.
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Lorenor,
what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
http://turntherightcorner.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/0.jpg?w=560
yeah you are right… next time i'll just write shit about oda being beaten by a group of feminists... that's how people won't get dumber... you are a moron... period!
p.s. if you don't like oda and one piece then why don't you stop watching it and shut the fuck up? just sayin'! xD
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yeah you are right… next time i'll just write shit about oda being beaten by a group of feminists... that's how people won't get dumber... you are a moron... period!
p.s. if you don't like oda and one piece then why don't you stop watching it and shut the fuck up? just sayin'! xD
Yo can you try explaining that complete nonsense I quoted above.
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@Monkey:
Yo can you try explaining that complete nonsense I quoted above.
Read the argumentation as a whole and not just the last piece of it?
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Snip
I will point out that I was not arguing here. Just musing.
And I will point out, that in the matters of sexism, I would rather point towards how often women are reduced to simply being a motivation for the male characters.
But then again, I hardly care about sexism in One Piece.
Anyways, Darth shouldn't you be talking about the Marines or something? Try to understand Fujitora's character and justice, while you're at it.
What's the point? It's not like it has an effect on him as a character.
You know what does? Luffy is a main character. Therefore, he needs to defeat main bad guy (Thus stopping Fujitora, the only who can't be made lose against Doflamingo in reasonable manner, thus he needs to be contrived to not confront him at all). He also can't be beaten (Stopping Fujitora from actually employing his own power in any efficient way against him).
Fujitora makes me bitter. His character suffers only because this is a Shonen, and it needs to follow procedures that's been done to death. I've been spoiled by Kingdom.
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yeah you are right… next time i'll just write shit about oda being beaten by a group of feminists... that's how people won't get dumber... you are a moron... period!
p.s. if you don't like oda and one piece then why don't you stop watching it and shut the fuck up? just sayin'! xD
Your entire argument is that in an universe filled with the most ridiculously fantastic things ever the thought of a beautiful woman with a normal(well supermodel normal) body actually fighting with her fists in return taking punches at a high level is too incredible to work. The same fucked up mentality as Oda. And if you don’t think this is messed up and incredibly sexist then…
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Read the argumentation as a whole and not just the last piece of it?
I did, which makes this post look really dumb considering it doesn't change a single thing about how insane a statement that was.
Hold on, let me also file you under Lorenor's category of "clueless shmuck".–- Update From New Post Merge ---
I'm just going to throw in random absurd claims in large paragraphs from now on and see if idiots defend me by insisting that anything said in large piles of words actually makes sense with the rest of the words.
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Your entire argument is that in an universe filled with the most ridiculously fantastic things ever the thought of a beautiful woman with a normal(well supermodel normal) body actually fighting with her fists in return taking punches at a high level is too incredible to work. The same fucked up mentality as Oda. And if you don’t think this is messed up and incredibly sexist then…
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lyei5ymPW11r3v1r7o1_500.gifFor the last time, 3D2Y has nothing to do with Oda besides World's design.
And look at you saying that stuff is messed up after suggesting that Oda should get beaten up by a bunch of feminists because random violence can solve anything.
ok, that whole nude thing was really uncalled for, but that's how animation works… the drawing has to fit in the stereotypical image of the human body: men muscles, women curves... that's why every male member of the crew has now a six-pack... even usopp, the weakest member after nami, but no one said that that was sexist... moreover, there is no way of showing physical strength in women... ok they could have drawn them with more muscles, but that wouldn't fit into the stereotype of a female body... so their boobs grow... their gain in strength is shown through being more attractive.
Not that this is any less stupid.
Women's strength is determined by boob size? I mean, what?
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For the last time, 3D2Y has nothing to do with Oda besides World's design.
And look at you saying that stuff is messed up after suggesting that Oda should get beaten up by a bunch of feminists because random violence can solve anything.
3d2y is just the cherrry on top of the shit cake. The reason why it pissed me off is because it was set up as a Luffy Hancock team up but instead of actually really letting her fight they once again gave her the same treatment Oda gives to all good looking female characters
Honestly at this point nothing seems to be able to help. Oda already has complete control, he has an almost cult status amongst his fanboys and every absolutely justified critic towards how he treats his female characters is utterly ignored with the old idiotic "if you don't like it why do you watch it?" So you know what? Yeah. I wouldn't mind seeing someone like say Gina Carano(yeah I know she is a cliched example she is the only professional female fighter I know) go a few rounds with Oda in the ring. Maybe this will get it through Oda's thick skull that woman are not glass figurines and they can in fact fight. Especially in an universe like One Piece
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3d2y is just the cherrry on top of the shit cake. The reason why it pissed me off is because it was set up as a Luffy Hancock team up but instead of actually really letting her fight they once again gave her the same treatment Oda gives to all good looking female characters
Honestly at this point nothing seems to be able to help. Oda already has complete control, he has an almost cult status amongst his fanboys and every absolutely justified critic towards how he treats his female characters is utterly ignored with the old idiotic "if you don't like it why do you watch it?" So you know what? Yeah. I wouldn't mind seeing someone like say Gina Carano(yeah I know she is a cliched example she is the only professional female fighter I know) go a few rounds with Oda in the ring. Maybe this will get it through Oda's thick skull that woman are not glass figurines and they can in fact fight. Especially in an universe like One Piece
Are you going to blame him for extending the Luffy vs. Hody fight in the anime? Or the Sanji boob slide?
It's not like we're ignoring what he does in the manga, but the anime has nothing to do with him. Chapters 687 and 755 were full of criticism.
You're not being any better by calling people fanboys while blaming him for stuff he didn't do. You just come off as a hater, which is arguably worse than a fanboy. Wanting him to get beaten up by some girl is just stupid and completely misses the point of treating everybody equally as humans.
"Hey, maybe we can stop sexism forever if women just decided to beat up men at random!"
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Are you going to blame him for extending the Luffy vs. Hody fight in the anime? Or the Sanji boob slide?
It's not like we're ignoring what he does in the manga, but the anime has nothing to do with him. Chapters 687 and 755 were full of criticism.
You're not being any better by calling people fanboys while blaming him for stuff he didn't do. You just come off as a hater, which is arguably worse than a fanboy. Wanting him to get beaten up by some girl is just stupid and completely misses the point of treating everybody equally as humans.
"Hey, maybe we can stop sexism forever if women just decided to beat up men at random!"
Don't really remember the problems with the Hody fight and as I said I don't care much about fanservice As far as I am concerne they could spent an episode having hardcore sex if they want to. But the absolutely ridiculous double standards when it comes to female characters fighting are just beyond annoying. And this is not some random un noticed stuff. Oda clearly goes out of his way to reinforce this double standard over and over again with every female character
I do hate the way he treats female characters. And sure. Beating up someone is very childish and almost never effective but considering that Oda seems to have some huge problem with the idea of women fighting physically…who knows. This may be exactly what he needs. Dumb solutions sometimes help :)
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Does the Japanese care about this sort of stuff or is this just dumb, angry, crying kids who are not Japanese but want to change the way Japanese do their own stuff?
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Does the Japanese care about this sort of stuff or is this just dumb, angry, crying kids who are not Japanese but want to change the way Japanese do their own stuff?
So let me get this straight. If the Japanese society is sexist it's ok because hey that's their own stuff. What a brilliant conclusion. Astonishing. Well done man. Well done. Are you one those stupid sjw kiddies with your cultural appropiation bullshit?
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Oh and again the 'Nami face' is not limited to Oda or One Piece. However, it is more noticeable among heroine/female characters - having read and seen a lot of series, I know for a fact it's a bigger case among older mangaka's and the reason being, if I recall correctly, is that it's their 'ideal' face for an attractive (young) female. I think this was covered in Bakuman? Maybe? I don't remember.
While I agree with you on this, we demand more for Oda when it comes to diversity in females because WE KNOW he can do better. Oda has proven countless times that, unlike most mangakas, he can draw completely different characters without breaking a sweat.
The problem is, most of his young female characters are beggining to look so much alike, that unless you know what´s going on you might confuse Robin for Tashigi, Hancock, or even Viola.
Hell, he doesn´t even need to do them 100% different to give them unique appearances. A hobby of mine is to draw similar looking characters in my style and give them distinctive features (based on their personalities, apparent origin, and whatnot), and made this. I think it´s simple yet effective enough. And they remain being "pretty" in their own way.
Another thing is that some girls are pointed as being "super sexy" (nami, monet) or "absolutely beautiful" (hancock, shirahoshi…), but when 99% of the female cast has virtually the same face and body, I fail to comprehend what´s outstanding about a particular female´s appearance over all the other ones.
---BTW I don´t really think Bonney´s fruit fits as "gendered"
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So let me get this straight. If the Japanese society is sexist it's ok because hey that's their own stuff. What a brilliant conclusion. Astonishing. Well done man. Well done. Are you one those stupid sjw kiddies with your cultural appropiation bullshit?
Assuming that this author is Japanese therefore he creates his story Japanese first and then the world, I'll have to say Yes. Are you one of those dummies that give a shit about every little crap while the world is being destroyed around them?
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Assuming that this author is Japanese therefore he creates his story Japanese first and then the world, I'll have to say Yes. Are you one of those dummies that give a shit about every little crap while the world is being destroyed around them?
So you are using society made him do it excuse? Yeah that's bullshit. Just because there is sexism in your society is no excuse for you to follow it
Well if you see women as "every little crap" then yes I suppose I am.
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So you are using society made him do it excuse? Yeah that's bullshit. Just because there is sexism in your society is no excuse for you to follow it
Well if you see women as "every little crap" then yes I suppose I am.
ohh you poor child, we do everything depending on how our society works, everything goes back to society one way or another.
So I shouldn't have a discussion with you because you're a woman and you will get offended If I say something that I shouldn't say since I didn't say "Female", I said "dummies" which is a word that applies to both genders. look it up.
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ohh you poor child, we do everything depending on how our society works, everything goes back to society one way or another.
So I shouldn't have a discussion with you because you're a woman and you will get offended If I say something that I shouldn't say since I didn't say "Female", I said "dummies" which is a word that applies to both genders. look it up.
You should try leaving your apartment and actually talking to other human beings. Then you might you know learn that we take our own decisions
I am not a woman I am a dude and where did you get the discussion part? Or is this you deliberately misunderstanding so you can tsteer away from the fact that you called the portrayal of women on TV as "every little crap"?
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You should try leaving your apartment and actually talking to other human beings. Then you might you know learn that we take our own decisions
I am not a woman I am a dude and where did you get the discussion part? Or is this you deliberately misunderstanding so you can tsteer away from the fact that you called the portrayal of women on TV as "every little crap"?
If your really worried about how women appear on tv. Your complaining about the wrong show. Op women are treated quiet well compared to most tv shows nowadays
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I will point out that I was not arguing here. Just musing.
And I will point out, that in the matters of sexism, I would rather point towards how often women are reduced to simply being a motivation for the male characters.
But then again, I hardly care about sexism in One Piece.
Okay well, I agree and disagree.
I agree that female characters (mothers and such) in the past are motivational for characters.
However I disagree that it's not only female characters in said pasts, and certainly not only male characters to be motivated.
I can say more but then I remember who I'm speaking with, and Darth, you're not exactly the most neutral when it comes to Oda.
What's the point? It's not like it has an effect on him as a character.
You know what does? Luffy is a main character. Therefore, he needs to defeat main bad guy (Thus stopping Fujitora, the only who can't be made lose against Doflamingo in reasonable manner, thus he needs to be contrived to not confront him at all). He also can't be beaten (Stopping Fujitora from actually employing his own power in any efficient way against him).
Fujitora makes me bitter. His character suffers only because this is a Shonen, and it needs to follow procedures that's been done to death. I've been spoiled by Kingdom.
Well besides everything I've already said about the character, and I know you mentioned he's not logical.
I won't get too into it since I don't want to argue, especially about Marines but my point is that he's actually quite logical (at the very least, with his actions).
For instance, look back when he first encountered Sabo, aside from the group of Marines engaging him (and beaten), the first thing Fujitora does is "clumsily" drop a meteor - which is actually quite cunning and serve to commence their "solo" battle.
Your entire argument is that in an universe filled with the most ridiculously fantastic things ever the thought of a beautiful woman with a normal(well supermodel normal) body actually fighting with her fists in return taking punches at a high level is too incredible to work. The same fucked up mentality as Oda. And if you don’t think this is messed up and incredibly sexist then…
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lyei5ymPW11r3v1r7o1_500.gifSo you're claiming sexism and using a gif picture that says "you're a cunt".. yikes.
Hope I don't say too much but "high level" huh? Aside from Hancock and possibly Big Mom and the fact that this is a pirate shonen manga, I can still do see how you have a point.
However, in the same context of your points, I hope you realize when claiming sexism in a series and work of fiction that touched the hearts of many - which has a secret meaning to it's title, interpreted as 'the great secret to connecting people' with the the actual cases being small (ultimately, the author's preference vs your preference) and non-malicious – seeing that much of it and aggressively reacting as such, that it involves your own biased and prejudice? Similar to how I understand the people who use the term "PoC".
Of course, it's easy to claim anything as sexist and I know it exists (sexist = exists hehe... -sorry), but it's much harder to differentiate and use it in the correct context.
In short, while I acknowledge what you've said, I also can't help feel quite bad for you.
Oh and I imagine, the japanese know the genre well (especially weekly series) and they know and recognize the 'norm' when it comes to female characters (especially shonen series), I mean.. this is one reason, but why do you think Attack on Titan sells/is popular lol.
While I agree with you on this, we demand more for Oda when it comes to diversity in females because WE KNOW he can do better. Oda has proven countless times that, unlike most mangakas, he can draw completely different characters without breaking a sweat.
The problem is, most of his young female characters are beggining to look so much alike, that unless you know what´s going on you might confuse Robin for Tashigi, Hancock, or even Viola.
Hell, he doesn´t even need to do them 100% different to give them unique appearances. A hobby of mine is to draw similar looking characters in my style and give them distinctive features (based on their personalities, apparent origin, and whatnot), and made this. I think it´s simple yet effective enough. And they remain being "pretty" in their own way.
http://i.imgur.com/7PrQ6MB.jpg
Another thing is that some girls are pointed as being "super sexy" (nami, monet) or "absolutely beautiful" (hancock, shirahoshi…), but when 99% of the female cast has virtually the same face and body, I fail to comprehend what´s outstanding about a particular female´s appearance over all the other ones.
---BTW I don´t really think Bonney´s fruit fits as "gendered"
Wait, what are you saying exactly? What bothers you? The face, the body or both?
Well either way, I did mention that it's one of the things I, personally find actually relevant (the face being a mention).
But aside from the 'ideal', keep in mind that Oda has tons of characters, male or female, and has been doing this weekly for years.. with a TON of other things to deal with.
Even having said that, It's quite easy to see he has preference - face and body (not to mention long hair and boobs), and makes it easy at that (the Billy Bat quote if interested and the interview where Oda said something similar; as I said before though, I'm no artist).
Though, I think if it's relevant in the story and he was given time like Amazon Lily, he would. Not to say he still doesn't manage to do some distinct faces/body type here and there like Perona, Otohime, Shyarly, gender-bender Supernovae.. but it has been awhile.
(Yeah Bonney's DF is debatable but anything that hints 'gendered' I put on the list, I felt like I owed it to the claims to do so.)
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If your really worried about how women appear on tv. Your complaining about the wrong show. Op women are treated quiet well compared to most tv shows nowadays
Well sure but this is an OP forum therefore it's logical to talk about One Piece don't you think? Especially since this is pretty much the only major and consistent flaw of an otherwise great anime like OP. And I think it's good to talk about it. The more vocal the fans are the more chance there is of things changing someday
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Okay well, I agree and disagree.
I agree that female characters (mothers and such) in the past are motivational for characters.
However I disagree that it's not only female characters in said pasts, and certainly not only male characters to be motivated.
I can say more but then I remember who I'm speaking with, and Darth, you're not exactly the most neutral when it comes to Oda.
Oh, I'm not talking about the past. I'm talking very much about the present.
Regarding Oda: I went from overall positive and optimistic approach, to negative and pesimistic approach. Now I've stabilised, and I just don't care.
Well besides everything I've already said about the character, and I know you mentioned he's not logical.
I won't get too into it since I don't want to argue, especially about Marines but my point is that he's actually quite logical (at the very least, with his actions).
For instance, look back when he first encountered Sabo, aside from the group of Marines engaging him (and beaten), the first thing Fujitora does is "clumsily" drop a meteor - which is actually quite cunning and serve to commence their "solo" battle.
What you are talking about is execution. It has nothing to do with characters personality, morality, or logical planning.
Fujitora brilliantly carries out actions that are stupid and non-sensical. I will give you that.
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So you're claiming sexism and using a gif picture that says "you're a cunt".. yikes.
Hope I don't say too much but "high level" huh? Aside from Hancock and possibly Big Mom and the fact that this is a pirate shonen manga, I can still do see how you have a point.
However, in the same context of your points, I hope you realize when claiming sexism in a series and work of fiction that touched the hearts of many - which has a secret meaning to it's title, interpreted as 'the great secret to connecting people' with the the actual cases being small (ultimately, the author's preference vs your preference) and non-malicious – seeing that much of it and aggressively reacting as such, that it involves your own biased and prejudice? Similar to how I understand the people who use the term "PoC".
Of course, it's easy to claim anything as sexist and I know it exists (sexist = exists hehe... -sorry), but it's much harder to differentiate and use it in the correct context.
In short, while I acknowledge what you've said, I also can't help feel quite bad for you.
Oh and I imagine, the japanese know the genre well (especially weekly series) and they know and recognize the 'norm' when it comes to female characters (especially shonen series), I mean.. this is one reason, but why do you think Attack on Titan sells/is popular lol.
Is cunt considered sexist? I always thought it was just one of the common swear words in English like dick, motherfucker, asshole and so on
Oh of course. It's obvious that this not some woman hating type of sexism. But that actually makes it worse(well not worse worse). This type of how to say pseudo gentleman sexism is worse because there is almost no pressure to change it. Rather then adress it people just accept it and say things like "well that's how things are", " it's no big deal" " and so on and so on. But it's still a crappy thing especially since it's so consistent and omnipresent. And it's so goddamn easy to change it.
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Wait, what are you saying exactly? What bothers you? The face, the body or both?
I wouldn´t call it "bother". But let´s be honest, 99% of his young females have the very same body type and face. The diversity is mainly determined by the hairstyle, the eyes and the thickness of the lips. Even if Oda does indeed have a type, he uses it way too often.
Though, I think if it's relevant in the story and he was given time like Amazon Lily, he would. Not to say he still doesn't manage to do some distinct faces/body type here and there like Perona, Otohime, Shyarly, gender-bender Supernovae.. but it has been awhile.
And while there are diverse females in some occasions (Amazon Lily being the most prominent example) It´s NOTHING in comparison of the difference in appearance he does with male characters. With male characters you can tell he´s having fun creating them. With female you can tell he´s trying to make them look good.
Perona´s only got her huge eyes as a distinctive trait. Take those away and she looks just like the rest of the gals. Otohime is indeed different looking, and for once, with no giant breasts; Shyarly looks pretty average except for the eyes and, yeah, being a shark mermaid. And the GB supernovas. Don´t even get me started about them…. Some of them even lost the SHAPE of their heads and all their muscles. Half of them looked like nami crossplaying. I even went and did a sort of remake back in the day
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You should try leaving your apartment and actually talking to other human beings. Then you might you know learn that we take our own decisions
Well Yeah, you take you're own decisions like for example I'm going to buy a house, but I'm not going to buy a house that looks like every American House in the country, I'll buy one that has nothing to do with how my society builds them because it doesn't influence me in my decisions.
I am not a woman I am a dude and where did you get the discussion part? Or is this you deliberately misunderstanding so you can tsteer away from the fact that you called the portrayal of women on TV as "every little crap"?
Ohh I'm sorry, I thought you were a woman. The discussion part came off because you're trying to imply that I see every woman as little crap despite of me not saying such words in the first place and good job on omitting this line "I didn't say "Female", I said "dummies" which is a word that applies to both genders. look it up." .
Just a heads up, I was raised by my Mom alone without the help of my "father" so whatever you're trying to imply just give it up.
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Well sure but this is an OP forum therefore it's logical to talk about One Piece don't you think? Especially since this is pretty much the only major and consistent flaw of an otherwise great anime like OP. And I think it's good to talk about it. The more vocal the fans are the more chance there is of things changing someday
You have a better chance changing things screaming about it in your garage honestly, at least in your garage you will not be ridiculed for stupidity. Yes Oda decided to drawn them attractive. Let's move on.
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This week I watched like 7 pilotes of new anime. I fail to see how Oda is like the average Japanese writer in the way he portrayed women.
He doesn't deserve those accusations. Or maybe he does, I don't know him personally (duh!). But his shonen manga about pirates doesn't in my opinion. -
People do understand that japan is 100% chauvinistic, patriarchic society, right?
It's not going anywhere anytime soon. -
Well Yeah, you take you're own decisions like for example I'm going to buy a house, but I'm not going to buy a house that looks like every American House in the country, I'll buy one that has nothing to do with how my society builds them because it doesn't influence me in my decisions.
Yes of course. . Oda is helpless. He can't fight against society and chose to have an attractive female character with actual hand to hand fighting skills. Impossible
Look sarcasm aside it's one thing if Oda is a new artist looking out for his style. It's normal to start off with a few flaws while you are perfecting your work and learning more about yourself and the world. But he has been doing for a LONG while. And his treatment of women has stayed consistently the same . So yeah he absolutely deserves to be called on it
Ohh I'm sorry, I thought you were a woman. The discussion part came off because you're trying to imply that I see every woman as little crap despite of me not saying such words in the first place and good job on omitting this line "I didn't say "Female", I said "dummies" which is a word that applies to both genders. look it up." .
Just a heads up, I was raised by my Mom alone without the help of my "father" so whatever you're trying to imply just give it up.
No worries. He she. In the dark, it's all the same.
Actually it came off because you went on this weird thing where you tried to absolve Oda of any responsibility because of society. Then this desceneded into both of us calling each out on our bullshit and generally being sarcastic.
So want continue bashing each other or do you want to get back to the argument? It's your choice. We can play it either way
You have a better chance changing things screaming about it in your garage honestly, at least in your garage you will not be ridiculed for stupidity. Yes Oda decided to drawn them attractive. Let's move on.
Every little bit helps. You know how it is. A butterfly farts in Japan a serial killer takes out the USA congress. And seeing as how you seem to have problem with reading comprehension it's not about how he draws them but how he treats them
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Oh, I'm not talking about the past. I'm talking very much about the present.
Regarding Oda: I went from overall positive and optimistic approach, to negative and pesimistic approach. Now I've stabilised, and I just don't care.
Darth, name them if you wanna keep this going – though I really don't mind if you don't.
What you are talking about is execution. It has nothing to do with characters personality, morality, or logical planning.
Fujitora brilliantly carries out actions that are stupid and non-sensical. I will give you that.
Well I was only speaking about his actions being logical but.. uh, yeah, if only all the Marines are Sakazuki.
Is cunt considered sexist? I always thought it was just one of the common swear words in English like dick, motherfucker, asshole and so on
Oh of course. It's obvious that this not some woman hating type of sexism. But that actually makes it worse(well not worse worse). This type of how to say pseudo gentleman sexism is worse because there is almost no pressure to change it. Rather then adress it people just accept it and say things like "well that's how things are", " it's no big deal" " and so on and so on. But it's still a crappy thing especially since it's so consistent and omnipresent. And it's so goddamn easy to change it.
I should say it depends on the context and the intentions behind it, but seeing as it's a Disney Princess, you're most likely clear.
Oda does handle sexism though, but you gotta remember this was a different era and he does it in a way that's easily missed or misconstrued. Aside from the SH girls who had to endure the crap they've been through, the message is similar: girls need to be strong (smart), try not hate the world (era) you live in, to keep smiling and living (fighting).
For instance, in Zoro's flashback, Kuina's father told her straight that a woman can't be the strongest swords(wo)man. Is that f*cked up? Yes. Is it sexist? Maybe. Does it resemble an actual real world issue? You tell me.
Now, imagine Tashigi winning every battle she's been in, really imagine it, I'll help you visualize it and I'll even go so far as to list only the males she's fought in her body (not that it's only males that have beaten her) – against Zoro, Law and Vergo.
Are you imagining no one would be saying sexism now? cause I can easily imagine it. My point is, that's how small this issue is, especially in the long run. It's quite obvious that Oda has foreshadowed/is portraying a rough path for (swords)women in his series (and the era).
It's not just Tashigi/Kuina either, Nami said it to Aokiji, the pirate world is supposed to be filled with women like Robin. Kalifa said it to Sanji, he doesn't have to think of her as a woman, that she doesn't live in such a lenient world. You can pretty much see the message of what Oda's trying to convey.
Since we're at the topic of girls weapons and strength though, I'm sure you've seen Nami's early concept? She had a robotic arm and uses an Axe. I said before that Oda probably hit a dead end with the concept and while I still stand by that, I think it's also the fact that Nami is meant to be the stereotypical 'Wizard/Mage' (you can even tell from the old men in Weatheria) archetype of the "party".
I wouldn´t call it "bother". But let´s be honest, 99% of his young females have the very same body type and face. The diversity is mainly determined by the hairstyle, the eyes and the thickness of the lips. Even if Oda does indeed have a type, he uses it way too often.
And while there are diverse females in some occasions (Amazon Lily being the most prominent example) It´s NOTHING in comparison of the difference in appearance he does with male characters. With male characters you can tell he´s having fun creating them. With female you can tell he´s trying to make them look good.
Perona´s only got her huge eyes as a distinctive trait. Take those away and she looks just like the rest of the gals. Otohime is indeed different looking, and for once, with no giant breasts; Shyarly looks pretty average except for the eyes and, yeah, being a shark mermaid. And the GB supernovas. Don´t even get me started about them…. Some of them even lost the SHAPE of their heads and all their muscles. Half of them looked like nami crossplaying. I even went and did a sort of remake back in the day
Well um, I meant distinct face**/**body type, meaning either or both.
But I forgot to say it before but I really like your art work. That remake is much more fitting.
This week I watched like 7 pilotes of new anime. I fail to see how Oda is like the average Japanese writer in the way he portrayed women.
He doesn't deserve those accusations. Or maybe he does, I don't know him personally (duh!). But his shonen manga about pirates doesn't in my opinion.I think people misunderstood me actually, I meant to say that in shonen manga - the genre that is usually tied with sports or romance, the heroine/female characters are almost all pretty similar. For example romance (harem) manga, it's a bunch of archetypes, sports manga has either has an active female or reserved female heroine, there's also battle manga that has romance like KHR, but then again it's a very largely centered around female fanbase anyway (meaning male fan-service).
Did you guys know in Japan, fans think the girls in One Piece are cool or badass? I forget but I think I saw it recently though; "OPP goes to Japan" documentary, most likely. In my opinion, while One Piece does have it's share of issues (as I said before, due to Oda's own preference) - well written female characters are not one of them.
@Skull:
People do understand that japan is 100% chauvinistic, patriarchic society, right?
It's not going anywhere anytime soon.Not gonna agree or disagree on that..
However, besides the obvious Oda =/= Japan, you should really remember/realize the portrayal of Wano Kuni (Samurai).
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However, besides the obvious Oda =/= Japan
He is = Japan. Every Japanese = Japan.
Imagine that.
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Yes of course. . Oda is helpless. He can't fight against society and chose to have an attractive female character with actual hand to hand fighting skills. Impossible
Look sarcasm aside it's one thing if Oda is a new artist looking out for his style. It's normal to start off with a few flaws while you are perfecting your work and learning more about yourself and the world. But he has been doing for a LONG while. And his treatment of women has stayed consistently the same . So yeah he absolutely deserves to be called on it
I don't really know what you expect is not like we have a bunch of females characters that are living as pirates or are meant to be capable fighters, from the beginning this shonnen has been filled with mans and the few females we have seen are capable of fighting low to mid level characters till somebody stronger appears so a main character can take over.
I cannot talk about Japan and their culture since I don't really know anything about them and the only things I know are things that I picked up in this place.
No worries. He she. In the dark, it's all the same.
Actually it came off because you went on this weird thing where you tried to absolve Oda of any responsibility because of society. Then this desceneded into both of us calling each out on our bullshit and generally being sarcastic.
So want continue bashing each other or do you want to get back to the argument? It's your choice. We can play it either way
But society influences how you behave, society is a tree and we're the leafs is as simple as that, saying that x person should change their way of things is really difficult since they were raised that way, they have been seeing and learning the same thing since they were born.
This sort of stuff takes years and years since you have to start with a generation so by the time that generation is old enough they won't have the traits of their past generations is not as simple as it may look to some people.
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IIRC this kind of topic had been debated from heaven to hell and back in a thread "how do you think woman is portrayed in OP" or something similar to that.
Haha, like your arguments about this topic, in a manga forum, will change something now or in the future.
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@Skull:
He is = Japan. Every Japanese = Japan.
Imagine that.
You had a good first post, should have left it at that.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
IIRC this kind of topic had been debated from heaven to hell and back in a thread "how do you think woman is portrayed in OP" or something similar to that.
Haha, like your arguments about this topic, in a manga forum, will change something now or in the future.
Hey it's that guy who made a dumbass comment about me not "getting" the context of a different dumbass comment.
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Darth, name them if you wanna keep this going – though I really don't mind if you don't.
If you don't mind, then I won't. Not interested in that discussion enough to create proper arguments.
Well I was only speaking about his actions being logical but.. uh, yeah, if only all the Marines are Sakazuki.
Now, in this one I'm interested in. Ironizing aside, I will go as Socrates would and ask you a question.
Do you think Oda wants Fujitora to be portrayed as morally sound, in a sense that people should look at him and say, "This is a good person"?
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what's wrong with Fuji's character?
he's a nice guy who eats ramen who was drafted into the marines, he dislikes many things about the marines and is more eager to help innocent civilians then destroy criminals
that being said, he hates the shichibukai, and is even willing to allow doflamingo to on go his meaningless slaughter (despite the fact he is obviously disturbed and upset about it) if it means making the shichibukai look worse after all is said and done, which will (in his mind) help his side with the ongoing discussion with in the marines to get rid of them all together
so he's nice but he is willing to sacrifice to get what he wants, other than that we know he's blind, honest, can see the good even in pirates, and he really likes ramen….. what am I missing
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What you are missing is that you are making logically contradictory statements while describing Fujitora's character…
But let the discussion run it's course, shall we? For once, I will actually dedicate myself to creating a proper argumentation, and not stuff made on the fly.
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What you are missing is that you are making logically contradictory statements while describing Fujitora's character…
But let the discussion run it's course, shall we? For once, I will actually dedicate myself to creating a proper argumentation, and not stuff made on the fly.
I'm confused what's contradictory here
granted the right thing to do would be to stop doflamingo, but he's putting aside his ideals, that people need to be protected from mad evil pirates, so that when all is said and done the shichibukai will look worse, the government will abandon them, and scenarios where pirates abused the 7 warlords title will ultimately cease to exist… it's something that pays off in the long run, for the greater good
I honestly thought you of all people would really like that he can step back from the super nice guy approach to reach his ideal for what he believes will bring more peace in the long run, though granted he's no spider man.... it does take away from his general niceness
or am I completely missing what your saying lol, sorry if that's the case
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what's wrong with Fuji's character?
He's being portrayed as a clumsy guy one day and a logical one the other one and somehow he reminds me of the Ds (This is getting out of hand)
what am I missing
You're just missing Darth's brain, I mean here's Darth timeline of the Dressrosa arc so far.
1. Darth was on a rant when Fuji dropped a meteor on the citizens using the accusation that he was portrayed as a caring man and he wasn't protecting them, but now he is so he stopped bitching about it.
2. Darth was on a rant when Sabo and Fuji were fighting as equal until Fuji got serious and blasted a horizontal wave.
3. Darth was on a rant when Fuji decided to leave everything to Luffy for obvious reason which he doesn't seem to get.Darth discusses the moment without thinking about the future and I understand we should discuss the most recent chapter and everything else is just speculations but he goes the extra miles on his accusations and then Oda bitch slap him with a stack of facts.
Darth will apologize to me for being wrong. (This is just a friendly reminder since I don't want him to forget)
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Now, in this one I'm interested in. Ironizing aside, I will go as Socrates would and ask you a question.
Do you think Oda wants Fujitora to be portrayed as morally sound, in a sense that people should look at him and say, "This is a good person"?
Hmm. I would say when he was first shown, the word 'ambiguous' come to mind, dude was gambling but we saw a hint of his ethics when he took care of the "garbage" and let the Straw Hats go while fully aware of their identity. As we saw more of him, I would say he gradually became "morally sound" (though still ambiguous), just that he behaves accordingly to his own perception of morality (justice) - as does every Admiral.
Having said that, as is the way his character is portrayed (and to my interpretation), Fujitora's 'ethics' include taking gambits, letting pirates escape, plotting with a Chief of the Revolutionary Army and 'believing' in a pirate – all actions questionable by virtue but can be considered steps to produce the results based on his own morality. So to answer your question "no, not really" but there's Black and White then there's Gray.
Though, I suppose from your point of view, since Sakazuki is Fleet Admiral - every Marine including Admirals should conform to 'codification' to be considered "morally sound"?
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Anyway, off-topic but regarding the Admirals, you ever noticed they somewhat go by color meanings?
You can look it up yourself but speaking of colors... the color Purple (I'm aware Fujitora = Wisteria Tiger), is a mixture of Red and Blue.
Then there's Green being the mixture of Blue and Yellow, but what I find more interesting is the possibility in the future - specifically how one makes the color Pink.
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Yes of course. . Oda is helpless. He can't fight against society and chose to have an attractive female character with actual hand to hand fighting skills. Impossible
Better have high hopes for Koala then.